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Post by Gary Hackett on Nov 10, 2019 14:37:45 GMT
Not really. Jones never played a side that balanced. Thought you hated 4-3-3? 433 is a great formation if you've got quick wide men capable of chipping in with a few goals. Unfortunately we haven't but it's a good formation for us to play away from home. I'd get Diouf on the right side instead of Ince until we get more suitable players in. Could also suit Verlinden.
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Post by lordb on Nov 10, 2019 14:41:31 GMT
433 is a great formation if you've got quick wide men capable of chipping in with a few goals. Unfortunately we haven't but it's a good formation for us to play away from home. I'd get Diouf on the right side instead of Ince until we get more suitable players in. Could also suit Verlinden. Agreed generally. At home against sides who sit deep it probably won't work very well.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 10, 2019 14:47:47 GMT
433 is a great formation if you've got quick wide men capable of chipping in with a few goals. Unfortunately we haven't but it's a good formation for us to play away from home. I'd get Diouf on the right side instead of Ince until we get more suitable players in. Could also suit Verlinden. I couldn't really give 2 hoots about the vagaries of the system in the context of this post. I just find it funny that certain people are praising our well balanced 4-3-3 having slammed a previous manager who did the same with a near identical group of players. Edit - easily his best decision yesterday was involving Ryan shawcross in the travelling party to barnsley.
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Post by plymouthpotter4 on Nov 10, 2019 14:56:44 GMT
Verlinden didn't play for Bolton in the cup yesterday. Was that part of his loan agreement? I'd imagine he'll have a part to play from January onwards.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 10, 2019 15:28:41 GMT
Not really. Jones never played a side that balanced. Thought you hated 4-3-3? It’s still way more balanced than anything we’ve seen under Jones though. I don’t like how Hughes et al have used it as a defensive formation. The difference yesterday seemed that the third midfielder actually attacked which under Hughes, Lambert and Rowett they didn’t do. And your man Clucas is well set for 10’ for the season.
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Post by dannymadeley30 on Nov 10, 2019 15:31:29 GMT
To come in on the Friday, have the courage to take over for the game and to get that performance out of team with 4 goals away from home (something some of us started to wonder whether we would ever see again in our lifetimes!!! Also to come out after the game and not make a big deal out of it (are you listening Mr.Jones!) Brilliant start. Yes, it's just a start but that has really shown us what these players are capable of with the right approach. Thank you boss! Fuck me it's 1 game against a side nearly as bad as we are and we still conceded two shocking goals. Spare the adulation after 90 fucking minutes.
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Post by dannymadeley30 on Nov 10, 2019 15:32:59 GMT
In other words, it shows you what a bunch of cheats we have in the dressing room.Great start, let's see how long the chameleons run with it before they change colour again. The big issue will be supporting the manager when they do. We absolutely must back him. Yes they are largely a bunch of underacheving wasters and it's for the manager to weed out the bad eggs, of which there are plenty.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 10, 2019 15:35:51 GMT
To come in on the Friday, have the courage to take over for the game and to get that performance out of team with 4 goals away from home (something some of us started to wonder whether we would ever see again in our lifetimes!!! Also to come out after the game and not make a big deal out of it (are you listening Mr.Jones!) Brilliant start. Yes, it's just a start but that has really shown us what these players are capable of with the right approach. Thank you boss! Fuck me it's 1 game against a side nearly as bad as we are and we still conceded two shocking goals. Spare the adulation after 90 fucking minutes. Why do you seem so miserably unhappy about us winning a game in which we scored four away from home in the league for the first time in five years? Of course there's a long way to go and the jury will be out on the new manager for a long time, but you seem determined to burst everyone's bubble. Is this just part of your sulk because we didn't appoint Pulis?
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Post by milky on Nov 10, 2019 15:37:01 GMT
To come in on the Friday, have the courage to take over for the game and to get that performance out of team with 4 goals away from home (something some of us started to wonder whether we would ever see again in our lifetimes!!! Also to come out after the game and not make a big deal out of it (are you listening Mr.Jones!) Brilliant start. Yes, it's just a start but that has really shown us what these players are capable of with the right approach. Thank you boss! Fuck me it's 1 game against a side nearly as bad as we are and we still conceded two shocking goals. Spare the adulation after 90 fucking minutes. So if we had got beat I assume for balance youd have said its only one game and he needs time to get his point across ? He isnt coming back.Just deal with it or get counselling....just do something.Its really not healthy.
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Post by Davef on Nov 10, 2019 15:38:27 GMT
Fuck me it's 1 game against a side nearly as bad as we are and we still conceded two shocking goals. Spare the adulation after 90 fucking minutes. Why do you seem so miserably unhappy about us winning a game in which we scored four away from home in the league for the first time in five years? Of course there's a long way to go and the jury will be out on the new manager for a long time, but you seem determined to burst everyone's bubble. Is this just part of your sulk because we didn't appoint Pulis? That's exactly what it is.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 10, 2019 15:42:37 GMT
433 is a great formation if you've got quick wide men capable of chipping in with a few goals. Unfortunately we haven't but it's a good formation for us to play away from home. I'd get Diouf on the right side instead of Ince until we get more suitable players in. Could also suit Verlinden. I couldn't really give 2 hoots about the vagaries of the system in the context of this post. I just find it funny that certain people are praising our well balanced 4-3-3 having slammed a previous manager who did the same with a near identical group of players. Edit - easily his best decision yesterday was involving Ryan shawcross in the travelling party to barnsley. Those vagaries are exactly what matters though. The intent was there to attack was it not? He’s got one up on the previous 3 that tried it and used it to shore things up. It’s not a formation for that. I hated how they used it. Ince in a 433 was our best player under Rowett mind so if we can get that going again and having Clucas pushed up then marvellous. It’s how you get a 433 working.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 10, 2019 16:00:14 GMT
I couldn't really give 2 hoots about the vagaries of the system in the context of this post. I just find it funny that certain people are praising our well balanced 4-3-3 having slammed a previous manager who did the same with a near identical group of players. Edit - easily his best decision yesterday was involving Ryan shawcross in the travelling party to barnsley. Those vagaries are exactly what matters though. The intent was there to attack was it not? He’s got one up on the previous 3 that tried it and used it to shore things up. It’s not a formation for that. I hated how they used it. Ince in a 433 was our best player under Rowett mind so if we can get that going again and having Clucas pushed up then marvellous. It’s how you get a 433 working. It's one game against opposition shitter than us. Let's see how positive it is when we play someone capable of laying a glove on us. You'll be moaning your arse off then as usual.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 10, 2019 16:02:44 GMT
Those vagaries are exactly what matters though. The intent was there to attack was it not? He’s got one up on the previous 3 that tried it and used it to shore things up. It’s not a formation for that. I hated how they used it. Ince in a 433 was our best player under Rowett mind so if we can get that going again and having Clucas pushed up then marvellous. It’s how you get a 433 working. It's one game against opposition shitter than us. Let's see how positive it is when we play someone capable of playing a glove on us. You'll be moaning your arse off then as usual. Maybe so. But even with the opposition the intent and the use of an actual attacking midfielder hasn’t been there.
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Post by spitthedog on Nov 10, 2019 16:03:26 GMT
In other words, it shows you what a bunch of cheats we have in the dressing room. Great start, let's see how long the chameleons run with it before they change colour again. The big issue will be supporting the manager when they do. We absolutely must back him. I don't necessarily go along with this (the first bit about the players). My experience of working with footballers is that certain expectations and instructions (depending how they are communicated) can completely kill their natural abilities and curb their natural instincts. If this is happening with a few players then you get underperformance on a major scale, often combined with lack of confidence and frustration because of poor performance. This can transform a decent player into one who is unable to perform to their best. I don't think it's necessarily just a case of supporting a manager, but being able to play for a manager according to their demands. There is no doubt that Jones split the camp but as O'Neill has already pointed we have too many players who are not playing and that is always a recipe for unrest in a squad as well.
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Post by spitthedog on Nov 10, 2019 16:08:02 GMT
Apart from taking our chances for a change we didn't look that balanced. A great win under the circumstances but we still look all over the place defensively. It will take MICON several games before we start seeing what affect he is having on the team tactically but the result is masking what i thought was a poor performance against a poor team. Getting results is so bloody important though! We've played lots of poor teams and not been able to take advantage. The manager seems well aware that there is stuff to work on.
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Nov 10, 2019 16:21:12 GMT
If he was a woman,I'd shag him,if I was a woman,he could shag me.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Nov 10, 2019 16:29:41 GMT
It's one game against opposition shitter than us. Let's see how positive it is when we play someone capable of playing a glove on us. You'll be moaning your arse off then as usual. Maybe so. But even with the opposition the intent and the use of an actual attacking midfielder hasn’t been there. Jesus Bayern you’re some man. You could spin an argument the full 360 and then argue that the world is flat 😆
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 10, 2019 16:43:56 GMT
Maybe so. But even with the opposition the intent and the use of an actual attacking midfielder hasn’t been there. Jesus Bayern you’re some man. You could spin an argument the full 360 and then argue that the world is flat 😆 It hasn’t though has it? They’ve used Allen there. Clucas is an attacking player who is a threat and can link the midfield and attack up.
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Post by Bojan Mackey on Nov 10, 2019 17:00:01 GMT
To come in on the Friday, have the courage to take over for the game and to get that performance out of team with 4 goals away from home (something some of us started to wonder whether we would ever see again in our lifetimes!!! Also to come out after the game and not make a big deal out of it (are you listening Mr.Jones!) Brilliant start. Yes, it's just a start but that has really shown us what these players are capable of with the right approach. Thank you boss! Fuck me it's 1 game against a side nearly as bad as we are and we still conceded two shocking goals. Spare the adulation after 90 fucking minutes. He’s not coming back, ever. Get over it.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Nov 10, 2019 17:08:46 GMT
Not at all, it just shows that like many said, 30 players weren't the problem, 1 manager was. I really didn't want to start saying things like this, because we bloody needed that win and it shouldn't be anything to do with Jones/Rowett/any other previous boss. But that performance was bloody lucky compared with some games this season. I have seen us perform better than yesterday on at least 6 or 7 occasions this season. I cannot watch what I saw yesterday and think it's suddenly fixed or even much better from that one game. We played relatively well, and for once we actually won. I will absolutely take a lucky manager, and I'm hoping it's a perfect catalyst for him. We should be enjoying it instead of using it to rewrite history and pretend it was our first acceptable performance of the season. It isn't about comparing O'Neill and Jones, because the Jones debate has been done to death. I agree we've performed better on a few occasions, though I'm unsure about the 6 or 7. A combination of Jones and how ridiculously unlucky we've been are responsible for our position. Especially near the start of the season when that Barnsley 'keepers clearance yesterday would've been Butland's and a goal against. I imagine Barnsley have had some bad luck to be where they are and we thankfully came out on top for once (even down to their penalty claim). I'm positive for the next few games and it does seem we have a 'grown up' in charge now, but I won't be more surprised either way if we end up challenging for the playoffs or remain in the relegation zone.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2019 17:29:36 GMT
In other words, it shows you what a bunch of cheats we have in the dressing room. Great start, let's see how long the chameleons run with it before they change colour again. The big issue will be supporting the manager when they do. We absolutely must back him. I don't necessarily go along with this (the first bit about the players). My experience of working with footballers is that certain expectations and instructions (depending how they are communicated) can completely kill their natural abilities and curb their natural instincts. If this is happening with a few players then you get underperformance on a major scale, often combined with lack of confidence and frustration because of poor performance. This can transform a decent player into one who is unable to perform to their best. I don't think it's necessarily just a case of supporting a manager, but being able to play for a manager according to their demands. There is no doubt that Jones split the camp but as O'Neill has already pointed we have too many players who are not playing and that is always a recipe for unrest in a squad as well. The issue is two fold for me. In respect of Jones he had success with lesser quality players playing the same system. If it didn't work here then it's pretty obvious why, the players downed tools. Going back a bit further that midfield and the two wide forwards turned out in a 433 for Rowett, with performances nowhere near that of yesterday. Rowett has gone to Millwall with 'lesser players' and won 2 from 3. I don't think it's too fanciful to question the players and their desire to play for the last two managers. The only two players I really respect out of that lineup yesterday are Gregory and Clucas - both of whose performances matched that of theirs under the previous manager. Time will tell. 'I'm all ears'
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 10, 2019 17:31:07 GMT
I don't necessarily go along with this (the first bit about the players). My experience of working with footballers is that certain expectations and instructions (depending how they are communicated) can completely kill their natural abilities and curb their natural instincts. If this is happening with a few players then you get underperformance on a major scale, often combined with lack of confidence and frustration because of poor performance. This can transform a decent player into one who is unable to perform to their best. I don't think it's necessarily just a case of supporting a manager, but being able to play for a manager according to their demands. There is no doubt that Jones split the camp but as O'Neill has already pointed we have too many players who are not playing and that is always a recipe for unrest in a squad as well. The issue is two fold for me. In respect of Jones he had success with lesser quality players playing the same system. If it didn't work here then it's pretty obvious why, the players downed tools. Going back a bit further that midfield and the two wide forwards turned out in a 433 for Rowett, with performances nowhere near that of yesterday. Rowett has gone to Millwall with 'lesser players' and won 2 from 3. I don't think it's too fanciful to question the players and their desire to play for the last two managers. The only two players I really respect out of that lineup yesterday are Gregory and Clucas - both of whose performances matched that of theirs under the previous manager. Time will tell. 'I'm all ears' Our players weren’t suited to the diamond formation. That failure is down to one man.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 10, 2019 17:35:26 GMT
I don't necessarily go along with this (the first bit about the players). My experience of working with footballers is that certain expectations and instructions (depending how they are communicated) can completely kill their natural abilities and curb their natural instincts. If this is happening with a few players then you get underperformance on a major scale, often combined with lack of confidence and frustration because of poor performance. This can transform a decent player into one who is unable to perform to their best. I don't think it's necessarily just a case of supporting a manager, but being able to play for a manager according to their demands. There is no doubt that Jones split the camp but as O'Neill has already pointed we have too many players who are not playing and that is always a recipe for unrest in a squad as well. The issue is two fold for me. In respect of Jones he had success with lesser quality players playing the same system. If it didn't work here then it's pretty obvious why, the players downed tools. Going back a bit further that midfield and the two wide forwards turned out in a 433 for Rowett, with performances nowhere near that of yesterday. Rowett has gone to Millwall with 'lesser players' and won 2 from 3. I don't think it's too fanciful to question the players and their desire to play for the last two managers. The only two players I really respect out of that lineup yesterday are Gregory and Clucas - both of whose performances matched that of theirs under the previous manager. Time will tell. 'I'm all ears' The players and their attitude certainly shouldn't escape scrutiny, but the return of 'common sense' yesterday equally has shone a light in just how much and how badly Jones got things wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2019 17:40:51 GMT
The issue is two fold for me. In respect of Jones he had success with lesser quality players playing the same system. If it didn't work here then it's pretty obvious why, the players downed tools. Going back a bit further that midfield and the two wide forwards turned out in a 433 for Rowett, with performances nowhere near that of yesterday. Rowett has gone to Millwall with 'lesser players' and won 2 from 3. I don't think it's too fanciful to question the players and their desire to play for the last two managers. The only two players I really respect out of that lineup yesterday are Gregory and Clucas - both of whose performances matched that of theirs under the previous manager. Time will tell. 'I'm all ears' The players and their attitude certainly shouldn't escape scrutiny, but the return of 'common sense' yesterday equally has shone a light in just how much and how badly Jones got things wrong. I agree Rob but I also can't get that abomination of a performance at St Andrews out of my head, a 433 system with similar, almost identical players as yesterday. Performances were chalk and cheese pretty much across the board. I'm not moaning. It's fabulous we've finally got a new manager bounce. It just doesn't sit right and it's a dangerous 'precedent' almost.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 10, 2019 17:50:18 GMT
The players and their attitude certainly shouldn't escape scrutiny, but the return of 'common sense' yesterday equally has shone a light in just how much and how badly Jones got things wrong. I agree Rob but I also can't get that abomination of a performance at St Andrews out of my head, a 433 system with similar, almost identical players as yesterday. Performances were chalk and cheese pretty much across the board. I'm not moaning. It's fabulous we've finally got a new manager bounce. It just doesn't sit right and it's a dangerous 'precedent' almost. The context is very different though surely Looky? That system was yet another desperate roll of the dice from a bloke who'd spent nine months aggressively eulogising about the diamond formation and then ditched it in favour of seemingly a new system and different personnel each week. It's hard to have faith in someone who appears to have lost faith in themselves, and the players would surely have picked up on that too?
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Post by ParaPsych on Nov 10, 2019 17:55:32 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised if under Jones there were lots of confused looks across the dressing room, as they all wondered what the fuck the crack pot was banging on about half the time.
Well they at least played like they were confused anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2019 17:57:31 GMT
I agree Rob but I also can't get that abomination of a performance at St Andrews out of my head, a 433 system with similar, almost identical players as yesterday. Performances were chalk and cheese pretty much across the board. I'm not moaning. It's fabulous we've finally got a new manager bounce. It just doesn't sit right and it's a dangerous 'precedent' almost. The context is very different though surely Looky? That system was yet another desperate roll of the dice from a bloke who'd spent nine months aggressively eulogising about the diamond formation and then ditched it in favour of seemingly a new system and different personnel each week. It's hard to have faith in someone who appears to have lost faith in themselves, and the players would surely have picked up on that too? Indeed.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2019 19:01:06 GMT
I agree Rob but I also can't get that abomination of a performance at St Andrews out of my head, a 433 system with similar, almost identical players as yesterday. Performances were chalk and cheese pretty much across the board. I'm not moaning. It's fabulous we've finally got a new manager bounce. It just doesn't sit right and it's a dangerous 'precedent' almost. The context is very different though surely Looky? That system was yet another desperate roll of the dice from a bloke who'd spent nine months aggressively eulogising about the diamond formation and then ditched it in favour of seemingly a new system and different personnel each week. It's hard to have faith in someone who appears to have lost faith in themselves, and the players would surely have picked up on that too? I thought he meant the abomination at St Andrews under Rowett
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Post by wokka59 on Nov 10, 2019 19:30:56 GMT
I feel really guilty about it, but I refuse to get excited. For three years we've had false dawns, fantastic managerial debuts and players putting in herculean performances. Every time it has been followed by a deluge of disappointment. Woods has been hailed as the missing piece on at least three different occasions now. I dearly, dearly hope O'Neill gets it right and that both he and the players don't let us down now. Fantastic managerial debuts, when the fcuk was that during the last three years
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Post by spitthedog on Nov 10, 2019 20:18:01 GMT
The players and their attitude certainly shouldn't escape scrutiny, but the return of 'common sense' yesterday equally has shone a light in just how much and how badly Jones got things wrong. I agree Rob but I also can't get that abomination of a performance at St Andrews out of my head, a 433 system with similar, almost identical players as yesterday. Performances were chalk and cheese pretty much across the board. I'm not moaning. It's fabulous we've finally got a new manager bounce. It just doesn't sit right and it's a dangerous 'precedent' almost. Management is not just simply about 433 or any other system you care to mention, it's not 'Football Manager', there are so many other aspects to the way you manage and communicate with your players in training and before they go out to play.
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