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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 21, 2019 13:18:34 GMT
Aye you can't trust these politicians. He's not doing so bad so far is he? He's not had much of a chance yet has he? Let's see what happens. I must admit I find the least honourable group at the moment to be the LibDems.... neither liberal nor democratic. I think Swinson argued for a referendum in 2016 ( on at least one occasion) and then didn't respect the result.( in favour of tuition fee rises I believe). I think that she supported Tory votes/ policies whilst in the coalition more often many Tories. An arrogant total hypocrite. Boris Johnson is ignoring the majority who voted for parties who want a second referendum. Swinson wants a democratic voting system. Johnson supports the system where he only needs 28000 votes per seat, whereas other parties need up to 600000 votes per seat. You are praising the political elite. The establishment. The eton bullingdon clubs of this world. I don’t think they should be able to take power easier than you or me for example. Our system allows that. Boris has been politically astute and consequently is the Prime minister , largely so because of his promise to " get BREXIT done" ... and of course because within our system the Tories gained more seats. I think that the electorate preferred to put trust in him rather than the others no matter what you think of him personally, his record and the brilliant alternatives.... Personally I don't think that the nation would be in a better place now if Swinson or Corbyn were the leader. At least he seems to believe in the country... which I'm sure can be interpreted in different ways if you want...but my belief is that the electorate get it... it's simple really. Keep moaning. It's like a continuation of the post Referendum argument. My view is " He's now the PM, let's see what he can do... let's hope he does a good job"
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 21, 2019 13:19:06 GMT
Why is he? What's he done now? Every word that comes out of his mouth is a lie. That’s the main reason. I don't think that is quite true.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 21, 2019 13:27:08 GMT
Every word that comes out of his mouth is a lie. That’s the main reason. I don't think that is quite true. And the lying get still managed to trounce the opposition. I think you've hit on something with the positivity angle. Johnson is at least upbeat, whereas Jezza is fucking joyless. Labour has to admit that they have been completely out of step with the public on a variety of issues, rather than point the finger at Johnson, who has had their pants down.
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 21, 2019 13:32:59 GMT
Boris Johnson is ignoring the majority who voted for parties who want a second referendum. Swinson wants a democratic voting system. Johnson supports the system where he only needs 28000 votes per seat, whereas other parties need up to 600000 votes per seat. You are praising the political elite. The establishment. The eton bullingdon clubs of this world. I don’t think they should be able to take power easier than you or me for example. Our system allows that. Boris has been politically astute and consequently is the Prime minister , largely so because of his promise to " get BREXIT done" ... and of course because within our system the Tories gained more seats. I think that the electorate preferred to put trust in him rather than the others no matter what you think of him personally, his record and the brilliant alternatives.... Personally I don't think that the nation would be in a better place now if Swinson or Corbyn were the leader. At least he seems to believe in the country... which I'm sure can be interpreted in different ways if you want...but my belief is that the electorate get it... it's simple really. Keep moaning. It's like a continuation of the post Referendum argument. My view is " He's now the PM, let's see what he can do... let's hope he does a good job" He doesn’t believe in the country. He only believes in himself. Brexit is happening and at least it will hit those who voted for it hardest
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 21, 2019 13:35:52 GMT
Every word that comes out of his mouth is a lie. That’s the main reason. I don't think that is quite true. 40 new hospitals. Get brexit done. 50000 new nurses. 20000 new police officers (they got rid of 21000 and are now admitting they were wrong to do that), no Uk PM could ever sign up to his brexit deal, sacked twice for lying, pro eu then anti eu then doing everything possible to stop May from leaving the eu etc
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Post by salopstick on Dec 21, 2019 13:36:08 GMT
Losers still moaning about losing
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 21, 2019 13:41:18 GMT
Boris has been politically astute and consequently is the Prime minister , largely so because of his promise to " get BREXIT done" ... and of course because within our system the Tories gained more seats. I think that the electorate preferred to put trust in him rather than the others no matter what you think of him personally, his record and the brilliant alternatives.... Personally I don't think that the nation would be in a better place now if Swinson or Corbyn were the leader. At least he seems to believe in the country... which I'm sure can be interpreted in different ways if you want...but my belief is that the electorate get it... it's simple really. Keep moaning. It's like a continuation of the post Referendum argument. My view is " He's now the PM, let's see what he can do... let's hope he does a good job" He doesn’t believe in the country. He only believes in himself. Brexit is happening and at least it will hit those who voted for it hardest I think that it is his ultimate ambition to be prime minister and he will want to make a success of it... that will mean doing his best for the country....he might surprise me, you and a few others. To me your post smacks of bitterness about not getting your own way... and of course the resort to " attack the man personally" ... He's only really been in post a week! Your " at least" comment seems to imply that you hope that some people will be hit hard and even more pleased that those people are those who " misguidedly," voted for him.... who actually happen to be ordinary UK citizens who happen not to agree with you. If they take your line, it seems that the role of the Opposition is " to get Boris/ the Tories" irrespective of anything else because I didn't get my own way. Do you hope that Boris leads to a better future for everyone?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 21, 2019 13:43:59 GMT
I don't think that is quite true. 40 new hospitals. Get brexit done. 50000 new nurses. 20000 new police officers (they got rid of 21000 and are now admitting they were wrong to do that), no Uk PM could ever sign up to his brexit deal, sacked twice for lying, pro eu then anti eu then doing everything possible to stop May from leaving the eu etc That's not " everything that's come out of his mouth"...and all can be disputed...as I say it's like the post BREXIT debate...I didn't get my 0wn way... everyone was lied to.... Boris is a liar....I don't think that the electorate saw it like you.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 21, 2019 13:53:01 GMT
Boris has been politically astute and consequently is the Prime minister , largely so because of his promise to " get BREXIT done" ... and of course because within our system the Tories gained more seats. I think that the electorate preferred to put trust in him rather than the others no matter what you think of him personally, his record and the brilliant alternatives.... Personally I don't think that the nation would be in a better place now if Swinson or Corbyn were the leader. At least he seems to believe in the country... which I'm sure can be interpreted in different ways if you want...but my belief is that the electorate get it... it's simple really. Keep moaning. It's like a continuation of the post Referendum argument. My view is " He's now the PM, let's see what he can do... let's hope he does a good job" He doesn’t believe in the country. He only believes in himself. Brexit is happening and at least it will hit those who voted for it hardest What is the plan then? A man with a megaphone outside Parliament for 3 years " Not my PM"....if anything Bray was an asset to the Leave cause
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2019 14:06:31 GMT
40 new hospitals. Get brexit done. 50000 new nurses. 20000 new police officers (they got rid of 21000 and are now admitting they were wrong to do that), no Uk PM could ever sign up to his brexit deal, sacked twice for lying, pro eu then anti eu then doing everything possible to stop May from leaving the eu etc That's not " everything that's come out of his mouth"...and all can be disputed...as I say it's like the post BREXIT debate...I didn't get my 0wn way... everyone was lied to.... Boris is a liar....I don't think that the electorate saw it like you. They definitely didn't, which puts the left in a very difficult position. If you don't believe what Boris Johnson was saying (I don't, for instance) then it becomes an issue of getting the electorate to realise they were lied to. The other side of it is that a significant portion of our country is moving towards being socially and economically more right wing. I have seen countless 'they choose to be homeless' or 'people on benefits just can't be arsed working' takes that I honestly have no idea how to combat. I can return with facts, figures and my moral beliefs, but it is very difficult to get many people to change their minds on these things. From a left-wing view, the tories and our modern society in general has successfully managed to get a lot of people to feel scorn for those with very little, by instilling in the public a belief that working hard gets you what you want, and more importantly, those who don't have what they want, simply haven't worked hard enough. See the Jeremy Kyle show, Benefits Street, hundreds of other similar things that, intentionally or not, instil a belief that people in poverty somehow 'deserve it'. I don't think many people at all think this consciously or would openly say it, but there is a lingering doubt in a lot of people's minds about the worth of those on benefits, those who had children early, those who are addicted to drugs, those who are homeless. 'They're all uneducated and don't bother working' was a fantastic line I heard from an old 'friend' who went to private school, dropped out with zero GCSEs and immediately was given a job in his dad's million-pound business. Saying 'I'm not privileged, anyone with no GCSEs can do what I did.' It's a very worrying trend that I have no idea how to fight against.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 21, 2019 14:07:29 GMT
I don't think that is quite true. 40 new hospitals. Get brexit done. 50000 new nurses. 20000 new police officers (they got rid of 21000 and are now admitting they were wrong to do that), no Uk PM could ever sign up to his brexit deal, sacked twice for lying, pro eu then anti eu then doing everything possible to stop May from leaving the eu etc And one good thing Boris will have to answer yo Parliament and the electorate under the UK system. He'll be at the dispatch box most Wednesdays to answer questions....a bit different to your wonderful EU.....I can't recall much scrutiny of Merkel or Sassoli or Der Leyen here in the UK or the EU for that matter
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 21, 2019 14:12:45 GMT
That's not " everything that's come out of his mouth"...and all can be disputed...as I say it's like the post BREXIT debate...I didn't get my 0wn way... everyone was lied to.... Boris is a liar....I don't think that the electorate saw it like you. They definitely didn't, which puts the left in a very difficult position. If you don't believe what Boris Johnson was saying (I don't, for instance) then it becomes an issue of getting the electorate to realise they were lied to. The other side of it is that a significant portion of our country is moving towards being socially and economically more right wing. I have seen countless 'they choose to be homeless' or 'people on benefits just can't be arsed working' takes that I honestly have no idea how to combat. I can return with facts, figures and my moral beliefs, but it is very difficult to get many people to change their minds on these things. From a left-wing view, the tories and our modern society in general has successfully managed to get a lot of people to feel scorn for those with very little, by instilling in the public a belief that working hard gets you what you want, and more importantly, those who don't have what they want, simply haven't worked hard enough. See the Jeremy Kyle show, Benefits Street, hundreds of other similar things that, intentionally or not, instil a belief that people in poverty somehow 'deserve it'. I don't think many people at all think this consciously or would openly say it, but there is a lingering doubt in a lot of people's minds about the worth of those on benefits, those who had children early, those who are addicted to drugs, those who are homeless. 'They're all uneducated and don't bother working' was a fantastic line I heard from an old 'friend' who went to private school, dropped out with zero GCSEs and immediately was given a job in his dad's million-pound business. Saying 'I'm not privileged, anyone with no GCSEs can do what I did.' It's a very worrying trend that I have no idea how to fight against. My point is that we have only just had a general election. The electorate put their trust in him compared to the alternatives. In our electoral system the party that enjoys the confidence of Parliament gets to set the agenda. Boris has not had a chance to do anything yet...but already the response from his opponents seems to be fear, lies, unnacceptance. So far on BREXIT and belief in the UK..my guess is that he is doing ok do far... what they expected one week in. It used to be called democracy.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 21, 2019 14:27:02 GMT
That's not " everything that's come out of his mouth"...and all can be disputed...as I say it's like the post BREXIT debate...I didn't get my 0wn way... everyone was lied to.... Boris is a liar....I don't think that the electorate saw it like you. They definitely didn't, which puts the left in a very difficult position. If you don't believe what Boris Johnson was saying (I don't, for instance) then it becomes an issue of getting the electorate to realise they were lied to. The other side of it is that a significant portion of our country is moving towards being socially and economically more right wing. I have seen countless 'they choose to be homeless' or 'people on benefits just can't be arsed working' takes that I honestly have no idea how to combat. I can return with facts, figures and my moral beliefs, but it is very difficult to get many people to change their minds on these things. From a left-wing view, the tories and our modern society in general has successfully managed to get a lot of people to feel scorn for those with very little, by instilling in the public a belief that working hard gets you what you want, and more importantly, those who don't have what they want, simply haven't worked hard enough. See the Jeremy Kyle show, Benefits Street, hundreds of other similar things that, intentionally or not, instil a belief that people in poverty somehow 'deserve it'. I don't think many people at all think this consciously or would openly say it, but there is a lingering doubt in a lot of people's minds about the worth of those on benefits, those who had children early, those who are addicted to drugs, those who are homeless. 'They're all uneducated and don't bother working' was a fantastic line I heard from an old 'friend' who went to private school, dropped out with zero GCSEs and immediately was given a job in his dad's million-pound business. Saying 'I'm not privileged, anyone with no GCSEs can do what I did.' It's a very worrying trend that I have no idea how to fight against. I say this as an ex member of the Labour party. Many on the EE board have been saying for a number of years that the Labour party no longer represents them. It seems that the electorate agree with them, whether on policy, leadership or Brexit ...I believe it is a combination of all three.... until the left recognise this, that the electorate isn't what you wish it to be...it isn't a bunch of incapable victims. it is patriotic. it does like to see a leader of the UK on the world stage who looks like a leader and ( lo and behold), .....puts the UK first ( yes, we've heard similar somewhere else). it respects democracy and expects to be heard not patronised. And it does want a fair society. You could do worse than listening to what Fox says about the current state of the left.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Dec 21, 2019 15:11:19 GMT
The UK reasserting itself on the world stage under Johnson
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50874181
Edit- I see Momo has already posted about this. Now the deal might be good news for Cobham but the fact that it was sneaked out at 10pm last night and all Johnson could say about it today was to mumble some bollocks about wanting a dynamic economy show that he's still the coward too frit to face Andrew Neil.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2019 15:24:32 GMT
They definitely didn't, which puts the left in a very difficult position. If you don't believe what Boris Johnson was saying (I don't, for instance) then it becomes an issue of getting the electorate to realise they were lied to. The other side of it is that a significant portion of our country is moving towards being socially and economically more right wing. I have seen countless 'they choose to be homeless' or 'people on benefits just can't be arsed working' takes that I honestly have no idea how to combat. I can return with facts, figures and my moral beliefs, but it is very difficult to get many people to change their minds on these things. From a left-wing view, the tories and our modern society in general has successfully managed to get a lot of people to feel scorn for those with very little, by instilling in the public a belief that working hard gets you what you want, and more importantly, those who don't have what they want, simply haven't worked hard enough. See the Jeremy Kyle show, Benefits Street, hundreds of other similar things that, intentionally or not, instil a belief that people in poverty somehow 'deserve it'. I don't think many people at all think this consciously or would openly say it, but there is a lingering doubt in a lot of people's minds about the worth of those on benefits, those who had children early, those who are addicted to drugs, those who are homeless. 'They're all uneducated and don't bother working' was a fantastic line I heard from an old 'friend' who went to private school, dropped out with zero GCSEs and immediately was given a job in his dad's million-pound business. Saying 'I'm not privileged, anyone with no GCSEs can do what I did.' It's a very worrying trend that I have no idea how to fight against. My point is that we have only just had a general election. The electorate put their trust in him compared to the alternatives. In our electoral system the party that enjoys the confidence of Parliament gets to set the agenda. Boris has not had a chance to do anything yet...but already the response from his opponents seems to be fear, lies, unnacceptance. So far on BREXIT and belief in the UK..my guess is that he is doing ok do far... what they expected one week in. It used to be called democracy. That's how it works though. The left, by definition, think that the right would do wrong by the weakest in society and especially this time, will cause death and pain for a lot of people. Whether you agree or not you can see why they're annoyed. And I would disagree, he's reneged on at least 3 campaign promises already and refuses to guarantee workers and environmental rights.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 21, 2019 15:36:14 GMT
My point is that we have only just had a general election. The electorate put their trust in him compared to the alternatives. In our electoral system the party that enjoys the confidence of Parliament gets to set the agenda. Boris has not had a chance to do anything yet...but already the response from his opponents seems to be fear, lies, unnacceptance. So far on BREXIT and belief in the UK..my guess is that he is doing ok do far... what they expected one week in. It used to be called democracy. That's how it works though. The left, by definition, think that the right would do wrong by the weakest in society and especially this time, will cause death and pain for a lot of people. Whether you agree or not you can see why they're annoyed. And I would disagree, he's reneged on at least 3 campaign promises already and refuses to guarantee workers and environmental rights. We don't know what the party is doing on workers' rights nor environmental issues yet? The weakest in society do not always want to be patronised by others who see them as victims.
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Post by serpico on Dec 21, 2019 15:45:12 GMT
That's how it works though. The left, by definition, think that the right would do wrong by the weakest in society and especially this time, will cause death and pain for a lot of people. Whether you agree or not you can see why they're annoyed. And I would disagree, he's reneged on at least 3 campaign promises already and refuses to guarantee workers and environmental rights. We don't know what the party is doing on workers' rights nor environmental issues yet? The weakest in society do not always want to be patronised by others who see them as victims. Our workers rights are already better than those the EU requires, it was only put in the previous brexit deal to appease Labour, there's no real need for them to be in the deal though, even less so now the Government doesn't need labour to pass a deal.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 21, 2019 16:01:24 GMT
Another thing to consider is that Johnson showed leadership and wielded the axe, getting rid of the people who weren't backing him.
Jezza allowed himself to be led.
The braver man won.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 21, 2019 16:07:53 GMT
We don't know what the party is doing on workers' rights nor environmental issues yet? The weakest in society do not always want to be patronised by others who see them as victims. Our workers rights are already better than those the EU requires, it was only put in the previous brexit deal to appease Labour, there's no real need for them to be in the deal though, even less so now the Government doesn't need labour to pass a deal. My main point in this little section of debate is just to point out that Boris has only been in power for a week and people are not just starting to Keep him under scrutiny but to justify their stance by somehow implying that he has failed.... what's really happening is that some people and it does seem to equate to the 'left' can't seem to accept that the electorate have genuinely chosen a different route...so perhaps they are mistaken, lied to misled etc.... OR perhaps that the left are out of touch with ordinary folk doesn't seem to occur to them. Other factors have emerged... as you say the UK is equally capable of making its own rules and protections....it does not need a remote top down antidemocratic body to tell us what to do. And of course clearly more scrutiny takes place in our country of our own policies and politicians than ever does to the EU bureaucrats... they've been laughing on the gravy train for years.... And I don't think Labour as a victim and Identity political group will ever wash with the working class.
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Post by felonious on Dec 21, 2019 16:14:22 GMT
I don't think that is quite true. And the lying get still managed to trounce the opposition. I think you've hit on something with the positivity angle. Johnson is at least upbeat, whereas Jezza is fucking joyless. Labour has to admit that they have been completely out of step with the public on a variety of issues, rather than point the finger at Johnson, who has had their pants down. I'm think the word "joyless" applies to a lot of the Labour heirarchy. They're a joyless miserable lot no wonder voters left them in droves. This after three years of tying a Conservative minority government in knots and there are people who want PR and the misery of coalition governments limping along for a couple of years at a time.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 21, 2019 16:19:54 GMT
And the lying get still managed to trounce the opposition. I think you've hit on something with the positivity angle. Johnson is at least upbeat, whereas Jezza is fucking joyless. Labour has to admit that they have been completely out of step with the public on a variety of issues, rather than point the finger at Johnson, who has had their pants down. I'm think the word "joyless" applies to a lot of the Labour heirarchy. They're a joyless miserable lot no wonder voters left them in droves. This after three years of tying a Conservative minority government in knots and there are people who want PR and the misery of coalition governments limping along for a couple of years at a time. I agree with half of that Fel...i think the proportional representation argument will emerge..... eventually, perhaps in 10 years!
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 21, 2019 17:04:06 GMT
My point is that we have only just had a general election. The electorate put their trust in him compared to the alternatives. In our electoral system the party that enjoys the confidence of Parliament gets to set the agenda. Boris has not had a chance to do anything yet...but already the response from his opponents seems to be fear, lies, unnacceptance. So far on BREXIT and belief in the UK..my guess is that he is doing ok do far... what they expected one week in. It used to be called democracy. That's how it works though. The left, by definition, think that the right would do wrong by the weakest in society and especially this time, will cause death and pain for a lot of people. Whether you agree or not you can see why they're annoyed. And I would disagree, he's reneged on at least 3 campaign promises already and refuses to guarantee workers and environmental rights. "Whether you agree or not you can see why they're annoyed." no actually I can't they can't accept defeat simple all this there is no loser bollocks just runners up is fcuking horse shit, Labour lost because their historical working class supporters rejected them in droves, far left politics as a major force in this country is dead and buried.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2019 17:53:17 GMT
That's how it works though. The left, by definition, think that the right would do wrong by the weakest in society and especially this time, will cause death and pain for a lot of people. Whether you agree or not you can see why they're annoyed. And I would disagree, he's reneged on at least 3 campaign promises already and refuses to guarantee workers and environmental rights. "Whether you agree or not you can see why they're annoyed." no actually I can't they can't accept defeat simple all this there is no loser bollocks just runners up is fcuking horse shit, Labour lost because their historical working class supporters rejected them in droves, far left politics as a major force in this country is dead and buried. Okay duck.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2019 17:55:15 GMT
That's how it works though. The left, by definition, think that the right would do wrong by the weakest in society and especially this time, will cause death and pain for a lot of people. Whether you agree or not you can see why they're annoyed. And I would disagree, he's reneged on at least 3 campaign promises already and refuses to guarantee workers and environmental rights. We don't know what the party is doing on workers' rights nor environmental issues yet? The weakest in society do not always want to be patronised by others who see them as victims. I don't think it's patronising to say that it would be good to help the homeless, jobless and disabled to be honest. Although I dislike our current welfare system, I'm a huge advocate for UBI to take over from it. Also a big fan of direct cash charity rather than 'we'll buy a poor person a dinner'.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 21, 2019 18:15:06 GMT
We don't know what the party is doing on workers' rights nor environmental issues yet? The weakest in society do not always want to be patronised by others who see them as victims. I don't think it's patronising to say that it would be good to help the homeless, jobless and disabled to be honest. Although I dislike our current welfare system, I'm a huge advocate for UBI to take over from it. Also a big fan of direct cash charity rather than 'we'll buy a poor person a dinner'. In one sense it isn't but it's the continual message from the left as though they are the only ones who care...I agree with what Fox says in the link I posted. The vast majority of the working class don't want to be dependent victims.... Corbyn was constantly talking about it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2019 18:20:09 GMT
I don't think it's patronising to say that it would be good to help the homeless, jobless and disabled to be honest. Although I dislike our current welfare system, I'm a huge advocate for UBI to take over from it. Also a big fan of direct cash charity rather than 'we'll buy a poor person a dinner'. In one sense it isn't but it's the continual message from the left as though they are the only ones who care...I agree with what Fox says in the link I posted. The vast majority of the working class don't want to be dependent victims.... Corbyn was constantly talking about it. I think he got the tone wrong, yes. I do see what you mean, and I think it comes alongside the fact that a lot of working class people do not see themselves as such nowadays. Not saying that's a bad thing but that is how it is. Maybe one way to get around that and the fact people tend to have poor perceptions of those 'below' them is to change that tone to a positive one and look at things like UBI. 'We will give everyone a basic income of £x, this will be less bureaucratic than the welfare state, will be enough to ensure everyone can get a leg up to push themselves to become as successful as they wish, and reduce strain on welfare services, alongside things like the NHS etc.' Using it as a 'leg up' rather than a 'safety net'?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 21, 2019 18:33:47 GMT
In one sense it isn't but it's the continual message from the left as though they are the only ones who care...I agree with what Fox says in the link I posted. The vast majority of the working class don't want to be dependent victims.... Corbyn was constantly talking about it. I think he got the tone wrong, yes. I do see what you mean, and I think it comes alongside the fact that a lot of working class people do not see themselves as such nowadays. Not saying that's a bad thing but that is how it is. Maybe one way to get around that and the fact people tend to have poor perceptions of those 'below' them is to change that tone to a positive one and look at things like UBI. 'We will give everyone a basic income of £x, this will be less bureaucratic than the welfare state, will be enough to ensure everyone can get a leg up to push themselves to become as successful as they wish, and reduce strain on welfare services, alongside things like the NHS etc.' Using it as a 'leg up' rather than a 'safety net'? I know that UBI has been debated alot.. I think that the Swiss rejected it within the last 2 years. I'm open minded on it.... I'd favour it because of less bureaucracy and also because I think that it might promote a sense of fairness...no one getting more than anyone else... unfortunately I think it is such a " different" idea that if Labour put it forward as a main policy they would get ridiculed.... On cost, and money for nothing.. some would see it as a disincentive to work. I'm not really sure that the current Labour party are capable of connecting with enough ordinary people again to win power....I don't think enough of them think of themselves as victims, have problems with Identity, many actually like the country and are patriotic and proud to be so, most work hard and have aspirations....vast numbers are now going through university as you know
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Post by serpico on Dec 21, 2019 18:34:29 GMT
In one sense it isn't but it's the continual message from the left as though they are the only ones who care...I agree with what Fox says in the link I posted. The vast majority of the working class don't want to be dependent victims.... Corbyn was constantly talking about it. I think he got the tone wrong, yes. I do see what you mean, and I think it comes alongside the fact that a lot of working class people do not see themselves as such nowadays. Not saying that's a bad thing but that is how it is. Maybe one way to get around that and the fact people tend to have poor perceptions of those 'below' them is to change that tone to a positive one and look at things like UBI. 'We will give everyone a basic income of £x, this will be less bureaucratic than the welfare state, will be enough to ensure everyone can get a leg up to push themselves to become as successful as they wish, and reduce strain on welfare services, alongside things like the NHS etc.' Using it as a 'leg up' rather than a 'safety net'? everyone ? even millionaires ? how much would you give everyone ? a grand a month ? wouldn't this just cause a moral hazard ?
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Post by Timmypotter on Dec 21, 2019 18:58:33 GMT
I think he got the tone wrong, yes. I do see what you mean, and I think it comes alongside the fact that a lot of working class people do not see themselves as such nowadays. Not saying that's a bad thing but that is how it is. Maybe one way to get around that and the fact people tend to have poor perceptions of those 'below' them is to change that tone to a positive one and look at things like UBI. 'We will give everyone a basic income of £x, this will be less bureaucratic than the welfare state, will be enough to ensure everyone can get a leg up to push themselves to become as successful as they wish, and reduce strain on welfare services, alongside things like the NHS etc.' Using it as a 'leg up' rather than a 'safety net'? everyone ? even millionaires ? how much would you give everyone ? a grand a month ? wouldn't this just cause a moral hazard ? There's recently been a large national trial of this in Finland. The result was that people on the trial were happier but much more likely to be jobless. If it had been rolled out to all Finns I think moral hazard would be a big understatement.
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Post by zerps on Dec 21, 2019 19:02:00 GMT
He’s got balls. I like balls.
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