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Post by Laughing Gravy on Jul 28, 2019 16:52:32 GMT
Perhaps it should be headed 'Different thread, same posters'?
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Post by tony1234 on Jul 28, 2019 16:53:56 GMT
I understand why NJ has started with foundations, which I think he sees more in terms of "character" than a particular position on the pitch: determined., strong minded players with a winning mentality. Get that. And its good. But I do think he himself could have been a fair bit more creative with the 10 signings or so and the c20m he has spent, more by playing to existing strengths, while infusing with both "characters" and a couple of creative and pacy players who can change and win games. The reasons we haven't sold players remains somewhat of a mystery. Butland, Allen, N'Diaye, Bauer and Woods would seem sellable assets, to generate c40m income, if we were 'determined sellers' - and invest half of that. Build on the fact we have several promising young players, a strong effective defence, and if we were also willing not to rule out loans, the squad could have looked - to my mind - not only stronger but also more creative and versatile. I'm saying this not knowing what's entirely possible with sales or incomings, but he has built this team like a brick layer rather than an engineer. I think, to these ends, the diamond may well be his downfall, as Verlinden and Ince could have added to creativity in a system with wide forwards, which required the full backs to be just that. The diamond needs fast attacking full backs who have the stamina to get up and down the pitch all game not 60mins., they also have to have the ability to deliver decent cross's on the run, neither of them from yesterday has any of those attributes and ultimately will lead to the system failing. That's how I see it too - or at least that's what i worry about too, because I'd actually like NJ to survive. It would have been a push, even if we'd landed Justin. (But better say it quietly given the thread going on about "negativity"!)
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Post by crapslinger on Jul 28, 2019 17:07:50 GMT
Perhaps it should be headed 'Different thread, same posters'? Or different manager same problems !
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jul 28, 2019 17:18:09 GMT
Early days but apart from different faces little else seems to have changed Still no pace, defenders losing concentration in the box, no decent striker, can’t string more than two passes together and still can’t score a bloody penalty Is it worth waiting for about 8 > 10 full on EPL games before making critical comment? Just a reminder by winning 1-0 or 6-0 it’s still only three points. Lets wait and see!!!
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Post by crapslinger on Jul 28, 2019 17:57:39 GMT
Early days but apart from different faces little else seems to have changed Still no pace, defenders losing concentration in the box, no decent striker, can’t string more than two passes together and still can’t score a bloody penalty Is it worth waiting for about 8 > 10 full on EPL games before making critical comment? Just a reminder by winning 1-0 or 6-0 it’s still only three points. Lets wait and see!!! The underlying problems are still present I think that is the concern, yes it was against a PL side with better players however the same issues were still on show, a LB to suit the diamond system should have been a priority, what happens when our full backs are blowing out of their arses after an hour as one in particular was yesterday ?, not sure the answer will be on the subs bench, what will plan B be when the system fails through lack of suitable personnel ?. We are still lacking any pace which again has not been addressed, I don't get calling these concerns negative when they have been issues we have failed to sort out for three seasons, the negatives start with the failure of the management to recognise these weakness's.
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jul 28, 2019 18:11:41 GMT
Is it worth waiting for about 8 > 10 full on EPL games before making critical comment? Just a reminder by winning 1-0 or 6-0 it’s still only three points. Lets wait and see!!! The underlying problems are still present I think that is the concern, yes it was against a PL side with better players however the same issues were still on show, a LB to suit the diamond system should have been a priority, what happens when our full backs are blowing out of their arses after an hour as one in particular was yesterday ?, not sure the answer will be on the subs bench, what will plan B be when the system fails through lack of suitable personnel ?. We are still lacking any pace which again has not been addressed, I don't get calling these concerns negative when they have been issues we have failed to sort out for three seasons, the negatives start with the failure of the management to recognise these weakness's. Let’s wait and see.
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Post by crapslinger on Jul 28, 2019 18:23:34 GMT
The underlying problems are still present I think that is the concern, yes it was against a PL side with better players however the same issues were still on show, a LB to suit the diamond system should have been a priority, what happens when our full backs are blowing out of their arses after an hour as one in particular was yesterday ?, not sure the answer will be on the subs bench, what will plan B be when the system fails through lack of suitable personnel ?. We are still lacking any pace which again has not been addressed, I don't get calling these concerns negative when they have been issues we have failed to sort out for three seasons, the negatives start with the failure of the management to recognise these weakness's. Let’s wait and see. We did that last season sitting back and praying these players are going to somehow become better than they are ain't going to work, we have a £6m(international) winger come midfielder plodding around as a wing back, hoping he will learn positional skills and defensive skills at his age smacks of desperation or insanity.
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jul 28, 2019 18:37:46 GMT
We did that last season sitting back and praying these players are going to somehow become better than they are ain't going to work, we have a £6m(international) winger come midfielder plodding around as a wing back, hoping he will learn positional skills and defensive skills at his age smacks of desperation or insanity. OK. We’re shit.
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Post by tony1234 on Jul 28, 2019 19:19:08 GMT
The underlying problems are still present I think that is the concern, yes it was against a PL side with better players however the same issues were still on show, a LB to suit the diamond system should have been a priority, what happens when our full backs are blowing out of their arses after an hour as one in particular was yesterday ?, not sure the answer will be on the subs bench, what will plan B be when the system fails through lack of suitable personnel ?. We are still lacking any pace which again has not been addressed, I don't get calling these concerns negative when they have been issues we have failed to sort out for three seasons, the negatives start with the failure of the management to recognise these weakness's. Let’s wait and see. We are doing. But commenting on the "present" along the way. I agree overt negativity is draining on the soul, but when poster's points are grounded in observations, logic and trends, then its more interesting if there is a counter position based on the same, than basically asking people to "shut up" at raising concerns or problems. We can all see different perspectives from debates based on that. Isn't that more interesting? What's worrying me at the moment is that the arguments coming back to the concerns being raised have stopped being logical or well founded counter positions, but rather are insults shot at the messenger or just a dimissal. (It reminds me of political correctness!) I can offer defence of NJ myself - it is that people need to have realistic expectations: the club has gone backwards for three successive years and there was a culture of apathy and unprofessionalism that had set in amongst the ranks. Culture is hard to change - and we are having to do this while being financially hamstrung. The first priority is to get a squad of 18 professional footballers, with strong integrity and a work and team ethic, as the foundation of what's to come. What happens at LB or CAM etc is secondary, because without that foundation, anything else will only be built on quicksand. But if there is a reason for over-inflated expectations, its NJ himself, with his mantra of creating a team that is unrecognisable from last season's. In reality, while winning as many as we lose, finishing 10th-12th, scoring 55-60 goals, would be decent, measured progress.
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jul 28, 2019 19:51:41 GMT
We are doing. But commenting on the "present" along the way. I agree overt negativity is draining on the soul, but when poster's points are grounded in observations, logic and trends, then its more interesting if there is a counter position based on the same, than basically asking people to "shut up" at raising concerns or problems. We can all see different perspectives from debates based on that. Isn't that more interesting? What's worrying me at the moment is that the arguments coming back to the concerns being raised have stopped being logical or well founded counter positions, but rather are insults shot at the messenger or just a dimissal. (It reminds me of political correctness!) I can offer defence of NJ myself - it is that people need to have realistic expectations: the club has gone backwards for three successive years and there was a culture of apathy and unprofessionalism that had set in amongst the ranks. Culture is hard to change - and we are having to do this while being financially hamstrung. The first priority is to get a squad of 18 professional footballers, with strong integrity and a work and team ethic, as the foundation of what's to come. What happens at LB or CAM etc is secondary, because without that foundation, anything else will only be built on quicksand. But if there is a reason for over-inflated expectations, its NJ himself, with his mantra of creating a team that is unrecognisable from last season's. In reality, while winning as many as we lose, finishing 10th-12th, scoring 55-60 goals, would be decent, measured progress. An extremely long and thought out post. “Asking people to shut up”...... are you quoting someone else? Have you actually read and considered my my Original Post? 1. As of today we still have 13 days to go before the end of the window. 2. We are endeavouring to adopt the managers preferred formation. 3. We have played “friendly” games giving the squad equal minutes until Saturday 4. We have had an injury that may have significantly altered our priorities (see 1 above) Personally I’ll wait for about 8 > 10 games in to evaluate and criticise or applaud our progress or otherwise. I will endeavour to post constructive criticism or comment. I’ll wait and see.
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Post by tony1234 on Jul 28, 2019 20:03:28 GMT
We are doing. But commenting on the "present" along the way. I agree overt negativity is draining on the soul, but when poster's points are grounded in observations, logic and trends, then its more interesting if there is a counter position based on the same, than basically asking people to "shut up" at raising concerns or problems. We can all see different perspectives from debates based on that. Isn't that more interesting? What's worrying me at the moment is that the arguments coming back to the concerns being raised have stopped being logical or well founded counter positions, but rather are insults shot at the messenger or just a dimissal. (It reminds me of political correctness!) I can offer defence of NJ myself - it is that people need to have realistic expectations: the club has gone backwards for three successive years and there was a culture of apathy and unprofessionalism that had set in amongst the ranks. Culture is hard to change - and we are having to do this while being financially hamstrung. The first priority is to get a squad of 18 professional footballers, with strong integrity and a work and team ethic, as the foundation of what's to come. What happens at LB or CAM etc is secondary, because without that foundation, anything else will only be built on quicksand. But if there is a reason for over-inflated expectations, its NJ himself, with his mantra of creating a team that is unrecognisable from last season's. In reality, while winning as many as we lose, finishing 10th-12th, scoring 55-60 goals, would be decent, measured progress. An extremely long and thought out post. “Asking people to shut up”...... are you quoting someone else? Have you actually read and considered my my Original Post? 1. As of today we still have 13 days to go before the end of the window. 2. We are endeavouring to adopt the managers preferred formation. 3. We have played “friendly” games giving the squad equal minutes until Saturday 4. We have had an injury that may have significantly altered our priorities (see 1 above) Personally I’ll wait for about 8 > 10 games in to evaluate and criticise or applaud our progress or otherwise. I will endeavour to post constructive criticism or comment. I’ll wait and see. No, it wasn't you, really wasn't - the thread going on on how this site has become negative, which itself tipped into intolerance - coupled with your specific one response to the guy - plus you disliked my post, which i found a tad unfair, because i do strive for a bit of balance! - motivated me to respond. I am not sure if our ultimate positions are too different. You are unequivocally right - it is going to be wait and see, though no conclusions are really being drawn that i can see - people are watching, hoping, worrying and speculating, as is the way.
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Post by owdestokie2 on Jul 28, 2019 20:08:12 GMT
An extremely long and thought out post. “Asking people to shut up”...... are you quoting someone else? Have you actually read and considered my my Original Post? 1. As of today we still have 13 days to go before the end of the window. 2. We are endeavouring to adopt the managers preferred formation. 3. We have played “friendly” games giving the squad equal minutes until Saturday 4. We have had an injury that may have significantly altered our priorities (see 1 above) Personally I’ll wait for about 8 > 10 games in to evaluate and criticise or applaud our progress or otherwise. I will endeavour to post constructive criticism or comment. I’ll wait and see. No, it wasn't you, really wasn't - the thread going on on how this site has become negative, which itself tipped into intolerance - coupled with your specific one response to the guy - plus you disliked my post, which i found a tad unfair, because i do strive for a bit of balance! - motivated me to respond. I am not sure if our ultimate positions are too different. You are unequivocally right - it is going to be wait and see, though no conclusions are really being drawn that i can see - people are watching, hoping, worrying and speculating, as is the way. I’m remaining “hopefull”
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Post by tony1234 on Jul 28, 2019 20:15:50 GMT
No, it wasn't you, really wasn't - the thread going on on how this site has become negative, which itself tipped into intolerance - coupled with your specific one response to the guy - plus you disliked my post, which i found a tad unfair, because i do strive for a bit of balance! - motivated me to respond. I am not sure if our ultimate positions are too different. You are unequivocally right - it is going to be wait and see, though no conclusions are really being drawn that i can see - people are watching, hoping, worrying and speculating, as is the way. I’m remaining “hopefull” ... And I think I'm schizophrenic, alas!. PTSD. Post transfer-window Stoke disorder.
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chadam
Academy Starlet
Posts: 109
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Post by chadam on Jul 28, 2019 20:21:53 GMT
We are doing. But commenting on the "present" along the way. I agree overt negativity is draining on the soul, but when poster's points are grounded in observations, logic and trends, then its more interesting if there is a counter position based on the same, than basically asking people to "shut up" at raising concerns or problems. We can all see different perspectives from debates based on that. Isn't that more interesting? What's worrying me at the moment is that the arguments coming back to the concerns being raised have stopped being logical or well founded counter positions, but rather are insults shot at the messenger or just a dimissal. (It reminds me of political correctness!) I can offer defence of NJ myself - it is that people need to have realistic expectations: the club has gone backwards for three successive years and there was a culture of apathy and unprofessionalism that had set in amongst the ranks. Culture is hard to change - and we are having to do this while being financially hamstrung. The first priority is to get a squad of 18 professional footballers, with strong integrity and a work and team ethic, as the foundation of what's to come. What happens at LB or CAM etc is secondary, because without that foundation, anything else will only be built on quicksand. But if there is a reason for over-inflated expectations, its NJ himself, with his mantra of creating a team that is unrecognisable from last season's. In reality, while winning as many as we lose, finishing 10th-12th, scoring 55-60 goals, would be decent, measured progress. Good Post. I really believe in Nathan Jones because it's the first time in a long time I have seen Stoke players improve under our manager. Joe Allen's pressing became less headless chicken like and more Klopp-esc, Etebo managing to dominate games from midfield (Sheff Wed and Blackburn) and Tom Edwards being one of our best players suggests so. We're far from the finished article, but in the first time in a long time, we are moving in the right direction.
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 29, 2019 3:36:37 GMT
I watched it online, if people can't see an improvement from last season than they need some attention, we won't play many teams of the all round quality of Leicester week in and week out and at times we played with a real zip. Yes certainly there are areas we can improve on, but generally I was very encouraged. Encouraged by what? I’d love to have a time stamp of the moments we were supposed to have “played with a real zip” in that game
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