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Post by mrcoke on Jun 24, 2019 8:58:09 GMT
With all the talk of leavers, another new CB, and now a new RB, I beginning to think that Nathan Jones is wanting to build a team with all players signed under his watch and all players here when he arrived departing.
The process will take longer than a couple of transfer windows, but it increasingly appears that very few of the first team squad he inherited will be playing in the opening match.
I realise this post may be premature as there has not been a single announcement this summer yet, but no position looks secure, which maybe isn't a bad thing.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jun 24, 2019 9:33:37 GMT
I've been saying since Jones arrived that he was brought in with a brief to slash and burn. Rowett was given the chance to add to our (failed) Premiership squad in the hope that we'd bounce straight back. When it became clear this wasn't going to happen and the spectre of FFP setup shop in the boardroom the club decided to change approach and bring in a manager who would dismantle the Premiership squad and rebuild a functioning Championship squad with Championship quality players. Which is what is happening - and it might take a couple more transfer windows to complete the job.
A lot of the complaints on here stem from posters not taking this on board. Like it or not we're not going to get out of this league by building a Premiership quality squad. If we get out of this league it will be because we've managed to build an effective team out of Championship quality players. On paper player for player we will be worse than we have been for over a decade - but hopefully the team will be better than the sun of it's parts - which will to a large extent be down to what Jones and his backroom staff can put together from the players they're bringing in.
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Post by xchpotter on Jun 24, 2019 9:45:11 GMT
I've been saying since Jones arrived that he was brought in with a brief to slash and burn. Rowett was given the chance to add to our (failed) Premiership squad in the hope that we'd bounce straight back. When it became clear this wasn't going to happen and the spectre of FFP setup shop in the boardroom the club decided to change approach and bring in a manager who would dismantle the Premiership squad and rebuild a functioning Championship squad with Championship quality players. Which is what is happening - and it might take a couple more transfer windows to complete the job. A lot of the complaints on here stem from posters not taking this on board. Like it or not we're not going to get out of this league by building a Premiership quality squad. If we get out of this league it will be because we've managed to build an effective team out of Championship quality players. On paper player for player we will be worse than we have been for over a decade - but hopefully the team will be better than the sun of it's parts - which will to a large extent be down to what Jones and his backroom staff can put together from the players they're bringing in. My thoughts too. I'm expecting nothing from this season as the damage is so severe. Season 2020/2021 is the one to have genuine expectations for. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 9:53:08 GMT
A lot of the complaints on here stem from posters not taking this on board. Sorry to condense your excellent post to one line but I make that line so true. I really don't think some have grasped just where we are now heading because of the failure of the last manager, and the one before him. |
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Post by wuzza on Jun 24, 2019 10:41:14 GMT
I've been saying since Jones arrived that he was brought in with a brief to slash and burn. Rowett was given the chance to add to our (failed) Premiership squad in the hope that we'd bounce straight back. When it became clear this wasn't going to happen and the spectre of FFP setup shop in the boardroom the club decided to change approach and bring in a manager who would dismantle the Premiership squad and rebuild a functioning Championship squad with Championship quality players. Which is what is happening - and it might take a couple more transfer windows to complete the job. A lot of the complaints on here stem from posters not taking this on board. Like it or not we're not going to get out of this league by building a Premiership quality squad. If we get out of this league it will be because we've managed to build an effective team out of Championship quality players. On paper player for player we will be worse than we have been for over a decade - but hopefully the team will be better than the sun of it's parts - which will to a large extent be down to what Jones and his backroom staff can put together from the players they're bringing in. Appreciate what you are saying but surely with our financial resources there should be some sort of middle ground available here which doesn’t involve taking us completely back to the Stone Age and starting again with the subsequent 3 or 4 season wait for promotion. Skilful management and use of funds should surely see us challenging for promotion this season. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 24, 2019 10:49:28 GMT
Be nice if he could win more than 3 games this time around.
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Post by JurgenVandeurzen on Jun 24, 2019 10:56:23 GMT
Be nice if he could win more than 3 games this time around. We'll never lose if we play Collins, will we?  |
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Post by crapslinger on Jun 24, 2019 10:59:01 GMT
I've been saying since Jones arrived that he was brought in with a brief to slash and burn. Rowett was given the chance to add to our (failed) Premiership squad in the hope that we'd bounce straight back. When it became clear this wasn't going to happen and the spectre of FFP setup shop in the boardroom the club decided to change approach and bring in a manager who would dismantle the Premiership squad and rebuild a functioning Championship squad with Championship quality players. Which is what is happening - and it might take a couple more transfer windows to complete the job. A lot of the complaints on here stem from posters not taking this on board. Like it or not we're not going to get out of this league by building a Premiership quality squad. If we get out of this league it will be because we've managed to build an effective team out of Championship quality players. On paper player for player we will be worse than we have been for over a decade - but hopefully the team will be better than the sun of it's parts - which will to a large extent be down to what Jones and his backroom staff can put together from the players they're bringing in. Appreciate what you are saying but surely with our financial resources there should be some sort of middle ground available here which doesn’t involve taking us completely back to the Stone Age and starting again with the subsequent 3 or 4 season wait for promotion. Skilful management and use of funds should surely see us challenging for promotion this season. Last season we brought in championship level players who struggled to get us out of the bottom half, this season it is looking as if we will be bringing in Div1/2 players for what reason do people think we will improve ?, a replacement managers remit in any job is to get the best out of the team you inherit do you believe Jones managed to do that ? |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 24, 2019 11:07:53 GMT
Be nice if he could win more than 3 games this time around. We'll never lose if we play Collins, will we? On his own, it'll be fine. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 24, 2019 11:08:52 GMT
I've been saying since Jones arrived that he was brought in with a brief to slash and burn. Rowett was given the chance to add to our (failed) Premiership squad in the hope that we'd bounce straight back. When it became clear this wasn't going to happen and the spectre of FFP setup shop in the boardroom the club decided to change approach and bring in a manager who would dismantle the Premiership squad and rebuild a functioning Championship squad with Championship quality players. Which is what is happening - and it might take a couple more transfer windows to complete the job. A lot of the complaints on here stem from posters not taking this on board. Like it or not we're not going to get out of this league by building a Premiership quality squad. If we get out of this league it will be because we've managed to build an effective team out of Championship quality players. On paper player for player we will be worse than we have been for over a decade - but hopefully the team will be better than the sun of it's parts - which will to a large extent be down to what Jones and his backroom staff can put together from the players they're bringing in. It's him building a League One sqaud where my worries lie. |
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Post by wuzza on Jun 24, 2019 11:10:40 GMT
Appreciate what you are saying but surely with our financial resources there should be some sort of middle ground available here which doesn’t involve taking us completely back to the Stone Age and starting again with the subsequent 3 or 4 season wait for promotion. Skilful management and use of funds should surely see us challenging for promotion this season. Last season we brought in championship level players who struggled to get us out of the bottom half, this season it is looking as if we will be bringing in Div1/2 players for what reason do people think we will improve ?, a replacement managers remit in any job is to get the best out of the team you inherit do you believe Jones managed to do that ? Hopefully the players brought in have the potential to do really well when surrounded by better players than they have previously played with. No complaints about that. But I really don’t buy into this lowering of expectations because as you rightly say part of any new managers job is to get better out of what he inherits. |
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Post by crapslinger on Jun 24, 2019 11:15:17 GMT
I've been saying since Jones arrived that he was brought in with a brief to slash and burn. Rowett was given the chance to add to our (failed) Premiership squad in the hope that we'd bounce straight back. When it became clear this wasn't going to happen and the spectre of FFP setup shop in the boardroom the club decided to change approach and bring in a manager who would dismantle the Premiership squad and rebuild a functioning Championship squad with Championship quality players. Which is what is happening - and it might take a couple more transfer windows to complete the job. A lot of the complaints on here stem from posters not taking this on board. Like it or not we're not going to get out of this league by building a Premiership quality squad. If we get out of this league it will be because we've managed to build an effective team out of Championship quality players. On paper player for player we will be worse than we have been for over a decade - but hopefully the team will be better than the sun of it's parts - which will to a large extent be down to what Jones and his backroom staff can put together from the players they're bringing in. It's him building a League One sqaud where my worries lie. In particular the keeper worries me from the clips I have seen, he seems to parry nearly every shot back into the danger area a worrying trait for a first choice experienced keeper. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 24, 2019 11:15:31 GMT
With all the talk of leavers, another new CB, and now a new RB, I beginning to think that Nathan Jones is wanting to build a team with all players signed under his watch and all players here when he arrived departing. The process will take longer than a couple of transfer windows, but it increasingly appears that very few of the first team squad he inherited will be playing in the opening match. I realise this post may be premature as there has not been a single announcement this summer yet, but no position looks secure, which maybe isn't a bad thing. He's not going to get rid of players he rates, just because he didn't sign them. |
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Post by Pugsley on Jun 24, 2019 11:21:45 GMT
I've been saying since Jones arrived that he was brought in with a brief to slash and burn. Rowett was given the chance to add to our (failed) Premiership squad in the hope that we'd bounce straight back. When it became clear this wasn't going to happen and the spectre of FFP setup shop in the boardroom the club decided to change approach and bring in a manager who would dismantle the Premiership squad and rebuild a functioning Championship squad with Championship quality players. Which is what is happening - and it might take a couple more transfer windows to complete the job. A lot of the complaints on here stem from posters not taking this on board. Like it or not we're not going to get out of this league by building a Premiership quality squad. If we get out of this league it will be because we've managed to build an effective team out of Championship quality players. On paper player for player we will be worse than we have been for over a decade - but hopefully the team will be better than the sun of it's parts - which will to a large extent be down to what Jones and his backroom staff can put together from the players they're bringing in. You make it sound like we are the Vale. I'm glad you've put everyone right and we should know our place. |
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Post by Pugsley on Jun 24, 2019 11:23:41 GMT
With all the talk of leavers, another new CB, and now a new RB, I beginning to think that Nathan Jones is wanting to build a team with all players signed under his watch and all players here when he arrived departing. The process will take longer than a couple of transfer windows, but it increasingly appears that very few of the first team squad he inherited will be playing in the opening match. I realise this post may be premature as there has not been a single announcement this summer yet, but no position looks secure, which maybe isn't a bad thing. He's not going to get rid of players he rates, just because he didn't sign them. That would be moronic management if he did. |
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 24, 2019 11:45:29 GMT
With all the talk of leavers, another new CB, and now a new RB, I beginning to think that Nathan Jones is wanting to build a team with all players signed under his watch and all players here when he arrived departing. The process will take longer than a couple of transfer windows, but it increasingly appears that very few of the first team squad he inherited will be playing in the opening match. I realise this post may be premature as there has not been a single announcement this summer yet, but no position looks secure, which maybe isn't a bad thing. He's not going to get rid of players he rates, just because he didn't sign them. I think you are probably right, and maybe I was just putting 2 + 2 together with the rumour we are after a RB. The fact is though the only saleable players are the ones Jones rates! They amount to just Butland, Allen, Etebo, and Edwards of the players he inherited. I'd be surprised if the club has not had enquiries about all of them. I'm less concerned than other posters about Jones bringing in Div 1 players. It seems ages since we had a team that played like a team and not a bunch of individuals, many of whom are devoid of any commitment to the rest of the team or our club. I know that nowadays the top clubs are crammed with top class players for every position, but historically that was not the case. I think it is still not the case in the lower divisions, where success can be achieved by an effective team with just a sprinkling of exceptional players. Norwich and Sheff Utd. were not full of quality players last season, just very good teams, but even we managed to take 6 points off them and not lose any matches against them. Jones inherited a team that doesn't concede a lot of goals and actually improved the defending. What he needs to do now is find a way of creating and scoring goals. Do that and we could have a very successful season ahead. I don't think he is going to get a lot of goals out of Afobe, McClean, Vokes, and even Ince. He might get some creativity out of Ince and Edwards, but even our star MFs, Etebo and Allen, do not actually create much. Hopefully Verlinden and Campbell can blossom this season and move up another level in their play. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 12:01:24 GMT
With all the talk of leavers, another new CB, and now a new RB, I beginning to think that Nathan Jones is wanting to build a team with all players signed under his watch and all players here when he arrived departing. The process will take longer than a couple of transfer windows, but it increasingly appears that very few of the first team squad he inherited will be playing in the opening match. I realise this post may be premature as there has not been a single announcement this summer yet, but no position looks secure, which maybe isn't a bad thing. He's not going to get rid of players he rates, just because he didn't sign them. Question is does he really rate the players he used the most last season, or was he playing and praising them over the top, because he wanted potential buyers to think they might get good players? I agree with the op that Jones - like most other managers bar Hughes - will want to get rid of everything he inherited, good or bad, and that he won't rest until he has signed enough players that he can call the team the 11 Jones Boys/buys (plus another 9 in reserve). Buying 20 players and getting rid of the enormous amounts of deadwood that we have won't happen in one transfer window. Personally I think it will take another five windows before Jones is satisfied. Whether the scfc faithful will be equally satisfied with that sort of planning remains to be seen. |
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Post by Pugsley on Jun 24, 2019 12:05:49 GMT
He's not going to get rid of players he rates, just because he didn't sign them. Question is does he really rate the players he used the most last season, or was he playing and praising them over the top, because he wanted potential buyers to think they might get good players? I agree with the op that Jones - like most other managers bar Hughes - will want to get rid of everything he inherited, good or bad, and that he won't rest until he has signed enough players that he can call the team the 11 Jones Boys/buys (plus another 9 in reserve). Buying 20 players and getting rid of the enormous amounts of deadwood that we have won't happen in one transfer window. Personally I think it will take another five windows before Jones is satisfied. Whether the scfc faithful will be equally satisfied with that sort of planning remains to be seen. Why would anyone be satisfied by Billionaire orchestrated failure? We should have challenged last season and we should be challenging this coming season. There are no excuses. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 24, 2019 12:07:31 GMT
He's not going to get rid of players he rates, just because he didn't sign them. Question is does he really rate the players he used the most last season, or was he playing and praising them over the top, because he wanted potential buyers to think they might get good players? I agree with the op that Jones - like most other managers bar Hughes - will want to get rid of everything he inherited, good or bad, and that he won't rest until he has signed enough players that he can call the team the 11 Jones Boys/buys (plus another 9 in reserve). Buying 20 players and getting rid of the enormous amounts of deadwood that we have won't happen in one transfer window. Personally I think it will take another five windows before Jones is satisfied. Whether the scfc faithful will be equally satisfied with that sort of planning remains to be seen. You've just said that ... he (like most other managers) wants to get rid of GOOD players JUST because he/they inherited them. I'm sorry but I completely disagree with that statement on both counts. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Jun 24, 2019 12:09:50 GMT
It's him building a League One sqaud where my worries lie. In particular the keeper worries me from the clips I have seen, he seems to parry nearly every shot back into the danger area a worrying trait for a first choice experienced keeper. That's also true of Pickford and it doesn't seem to worry Everton or England too much. |
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Post by rickyfullerbeer on Jun 24, 2019 12:39:28 GMT
Is there anything on this board that isn't complete conjecture?
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Post by stokienorthants on Jun 24, 2019 13:09:16 GMT
Be nice if he could win more than 3 games this time around. Although the expensively assembled squad wasn’t his results show that he did absolutely nothing to inspire or motivate the team which is surely what good managers do. He certainly talks a great game but lacks credibility as far as I am concerned. |
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Jun 24, 2019 13:37:30 GMT
It looks more and more like he is a wheeler-dealer with knowledge of the lower leagues.
That might be what we need for this season to get the team working hard and competitive in the Championship.
BUT would he have the right credentials if a surprise happens and we got promoted to the Premier League gravy train and he had 50 million to spend suddenly.
It seems a bit myopic to me, unless the plan is to replace him with a Benitez big spender type should we get promoted. I just dont see Jones buying players from Europe and South America, whatever league we happen to be in.
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Post by crapslinger on Jun 24, 2019 13:45:03 GMT
In particular the keeper worries me from the clips I have seen, he seems to parry nearly every shot back into the danger area a worrying trait for a first choice experienced keeper. That's also true of Pickford and it doesn't seem to worry Everton or England too much. Is it really maybe having decent defenders with the pace to react negates the issues, we don't have those players we are not Everton or England we are little Stoke from the bottom half of the championship where a good GK is a necessity. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 13:51:33 GMT
Question is does he really rate the players he used the most last season, or was he playing and praising them over the top, because he wanted potential buyers to think they might get good players? I agree with the op that Jones - like most other managers bar Hughes - will want to get rid of everything he inherited, good or bad, and that he won't rest until he has signed enough players that he can call the team the 11 Jones Boys/buys (plus another 9 in reserve). Buying 20 players and getting rid of the enormous amounts of deadwood that we have won't happen in one transfer window. Personally I think it will take another five windows before Jones is satisfied. Whether the scfc faithful will be equally satisfied with that sort of planning remains to be seen. You've just said that ... he (like most other managers) wants to get rid of GOOD players JUST because he/they inherited them. I'm sorry but I completely disagree with that statement on both counts. Watch this space over the coming windows. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 13:53:24 GMT
I've been saying since Jones arrived that he was brought in with a brief to slash and burn. Rowett was given the chance to add to our (failed) Premiership squad in the hope that we'd bounce straight back. When it became clear this wasn't going to happen and the spectre of FFP setup shop in the boardroom the club decided to change approach and bring in a manager who would dismantle the Premiership squad and rebuild a functioning Championship squad with Championship quality players. Which is what is happening - and it might take a couple more transfer windows to complete the job. A lot of the complaints on here stem from posters not taking this on board. Like it or not we're not going to get out of this league by building a Premiership quality squad. If we get out of this league it will be because we've managed to build an effective team out of Championship quality players. On paper player for player we will be worse than we have been for over a decade - but hopefully the team will be better than the sun of it's parts - which will to a large extent be down to what Jones and his backroom staff can put together from the players they're bringing in. It's him building a League One sqaud where my worries lie. It's always a good thing to be prepared for the worst. Or in our case relying on James McClean as our saviour. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jun 24, 2019 15:48:46 GMT
I've been saying since Jones arrived that he was brought in with a brief to slash and burn. Rowett was given the chance to add to our (failed) Premiership squad in the hope that we'd bounce straight back. When it became clear this wasn't going to happen and the spectre of FFP setup shop in the boardroom the club decided to change approach and bring in a manager who would dismantle the Premiership squad and rebuild a functioning Championship squad with Championship quality players. Which is what is happening - and it might take a couple more transfer windows to complete the job. A lot of the complaints on here stem from posters not taking this on board. Like it or not we're not going to get out of this league by building a Premiership quality squad. If we get out of this league it will be because we've managed to build an effective team out of Championship quality players. On paper player for player we will be worse than we have been for over a decade - but hopefully the team will be better than the sun of it's parts - which will to a large extent be down to what Jones and his backroom staff can put together from the players they're bringing in. Appreciate what you are saying but surely with our financial resources there should be some sort of middle ground available here which doesn’t involve taking us completely back to the Stone Age and starting again with the subsequent 3 or 4 season wait for promotion. Skilful management and use of funds should surely see us challenging for promotion this season. Throwing money at the problem will see us fall foul of FFP and a points deduction. Also the reality is Premiership quality players will choose a Premiership side before us and in terms of pecking order in the Championship we're in the same pool as the likes of WBA, Cardiff, Fulham, Leeds and a couple of others. We tried to do it by bringing in "top quality" Championship players to supplement a (dysfunctional) Premier League squad last year and the strategy failed. What Jones is doing is drastic - whether it works or not remains to be seen. If you look at all the teams that got promoted in the last two seasons they are all ex-Prem but have been out of the top flight for at least 3 seasons. By not clinging on to the delusion we're a Premiership club slumming it in the Championship we may well have chopped a couple of seasons off our return. And a couple of seasons where we don't end up looking like the Arsenal of the north and the embarrassment that brings. I don't see it as a 3 or 4 season project - I see it as 2 or 3 at most. I'd be surprised if we go up this season - and I'm not sure we're ready yet anyway. 2020/21 is the one where we'll know if the strategy has worked or not - if we just miss out Jones might get another season, if not he's out. Assuming he survives those baying for his blood by Xmas if we're not running away with the league. |
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Post by Gary Hackett on Jun 24, 2019 15:54:20 GMT
There's no point firing him mid way through season even if it's not working. It's not worked for us before so no point doing it again, unless relegation is a possibility of course.
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Post by peekay67 on Jun 24, 2019 16:07:42 GMT
NJ is quite open that he recruits players who he thinks can play at least a division higher than at when they were purchased.
The players he wants seem on the whole, to be of character which has been sadly lacking.
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Post by wuzza on Jun 24, 2019 17:04:41 GMT
Appreciate what you are saying but surely with our financial resources there should be some sort of middle ground available here which doesn’t involve taking us completely back to the Stone Age and starting again with the subsequent 3 or 4 season wait for promotion. Skilful management and use of funds should surely see us challenging for promotion this season. Throwing money at the problem will see us fall foul of FFP and a points deduction. Also the reality is Premiership quality players will choose a Premiership side before us and in terms of pecking order in the Championship we're in the same pool as the likes of WBA, Cardiff, Fulham, Leeds and a couple of others. We tried to do it by bringing in "top quality" Championship players to supplement a (dysfunctional) Premier League squad last year and the strategy failed. What Jones is doing is drastic - whether it works or not remains to be seen. If you look at all the teams that got promoted in the last two seasons they are all ex-Prem but have been out of the top flight for at least 3 seasons. By not clinging on to the delusion we're a Premiership club slumming it in the Championship we may well have chopped a couple of seasons off our return. And a couple of seasons where we don't end up looking like the Arsenal of the north and the embarrassment that brings. I don't see it as a 3 or 4 season project - I see it as 2 or 3 at most. I'd be surprised if we go up this season - and I'm not sure we're ready yet anyway. 2020/21 is the one where we'll know if the strategy has worked or not - if we just miss out Jones might get another season, if not he's out. Assuming he survives those baying for his blood by Xmas if we're not running away with the league. Again I see where you are coming from but I don’t think we will have the FFP problems that some clubs have had because a ) we are very aware of the issue and b) (despite what some would say) we are a well run and stable club. It’s possible to an extent to work round these issues as others have shown. Our existing squad wasn’t necessarily all bad - it was definitely under performing. It should be possible to turn most of those players into very effective Championship units. To me that’s as much the managers task as bringing in new players. As for delusional I really don’t think it is too far fetched to say that there isn’t another Championship club that wouldn’t swap their ownership / resources etc for ours and as such we really have to set our sights accordingly. |
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