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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 9:54:04 GMT
I think you're underestimating the challenge Labour face when you look at the makeup of their support. Whatever your views on Corbyn it's a tough one to call. Ultimately you could put Yvette Cooper in charge of Labour on a neoliberal, remain platform and she would do well. But neoliberalism is a joke and this country needs radical change. I was an ardent remainer, but the genie is out of the bottle now and there's no going back. So as a democratic socialist I have to ask myself would I prefer to be in Europe with a Tory government in power for another 10-15 years? Or would I prefer to be out of Europe with a Labour government implementing a radical democratic socialist agenda to help bridge the absolute unfairness and equality in our society today, and to bridge the economic gap with a progressive green agenda? And the answer is unequivocally the latter. If Labour ride the storm, they could still win a general election in a first past the post system. People take the piss at that statement but I'm quite convinced they could albeit not necessarily with a parliamentary majority. Do they piss off their supporters in the metropolitan boroughs or their core support in the northern heartlands who have backed to leave the EU by a huge majority. If it's the second option the party as is toast....... Genuinely the best post I've seen on here since 'IloveGlennWhelan'. The huge issue is the stigma behind a socialist labour. There is a huge clamour for centrism and fuck knows why, because it's failed us for years and it has no moral value. Brexit in particular has been allowed to become a right wing issue, when there is a tremendous left wing case against the EU (see Green party policy about 5 years ago). It's terrifying, and eventually what will happen is another centre-right politician like Blair will come in and win the popular vote, then we'll be fucked again and go back to a right wing Tory govt. The public cry out for change to help normal people, then shit themselves when a politician offers anything left of centre. Bingo. The amount of comfortable middle class "Blairite" Labour voters I come across doing down Corbyn and treating those who voted to leave the EU as ignorant makes me sick. Whether Corbyn is the man or not, Labour need to get back to their traditional values to try and rid this country of the current shower of shit, or just shut the doors and merge with the Lib Dems. You only have to look at Scandanavia, you can have values left of centre whilst still being a modern, progressive government
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Post by desman2 on May 27, 2019 9:57:06 GMT
Farage for me would take a few people by surprise and without doubt take seats easily. I really think that the big two parties have sat idly by taking things for granted for decades. Farage went away and spent time in the states looking at their campaigns and good for him I say. Voting in the past was listening to a vast majority of my friends who were miners at the time, picking up a one sided daily paper and falling for their lies and deceit and mainly doing as instructed by our parents. Things have moved on massively with an abundance of social media platforms providing news within seconds at the push of a button rather than days in the past. Politics reminds me of Stoke really, others seize opportunity whilst others simply sit by and come out with shit like “ what’s all the fuss about” It was Farage in 2014, UKIP got one seat in parliament. There's on person who would love nothing better than for this Godforsaken process to drag on for another 10/15 years and it's Nigel Farage. It pays his bills, it's his pension. He rides the EU gravy train more than any other politician going. In a general election all sorts of factors come into play, Farage for example would like nothing better than to privatise large parts of the NHS. Let him come out and campaign on that platform and lets see where it gets him. The Brexit Party will need actual policies if they continue beyond the next few months..... The NHS is already part privatised. We dont even own our own hospital, we rent it at astronomical cost. The same company who owns it has a huge quantity of staff there. This isn't unique to Stoke either.
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Post by desman2 on May 27, 2019 9:58:50 GMT
2014 EU Elections - Won by UKIP. 2015 General Election - Won by the Tories who offered a referendum. 2016 Referendum - Won by 'Leave'. 2017 General Election - The parties who pledged to honour the referendum result get over 80% of the votes. 2019 EU Elections - Won by the Brexit Party. Remoaners - "This shows that the country is still very divided. We need another vote!" Kier Starmer tells us we should have a 2nd ref between "credible leave option" and remain. So after 3 years all he can come up with is a term "credible leave option" what the fuck is that then Kier ? This Labour party is passed being a joke. Credible means what he wants. Youve got a couple of parties basically playing to the remain crowd to see who can beat the other
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Post by trickydicky73 on May 27, 2019 9:59:24 GMT
2014 EU Elections - Won by UKIP. 2015 General Election - Won by the Tories who offered a referendum. 2016 Referendum - Won by 'Leave'. 2017 General Election - The parties who pledged to honour the referendum result get over 80% of the votes. 2019 EU Elections - Won by the Brexit Party. Remoaners - "This shows that the country is still very divided. We need another vote!" LBC, Sky, the Beeb etc are all doing the "add up all the Remainers bit", forgetting that loads of Labour and Tory voters want Brexit! It's fucking incredible.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 10:00:57 GMT
It was Farage in 2014, UKIP got one seat in parliament. There's on person who would love nothing better than for this Godforsaken process to drag on for another 10/15 years and it's Nigel Farage. It pays his bills, it's his pension. He rides the EU gravy train more than any other politician going. In a general election all sorts of factors come into play, Farage for example would like nothing better than to privatise large parts of the NHS. Let him come out and campaign on that platform and lets see where it gets him. The Brexit Party will need actual policies if they continue beyond the next few months..... The NHS is already part privatised. We dont even own our own hospital, we rent it at astronomical cost. The same company who owns it has a huge quantity of staff there. This isn't unique to Stoke either. "Free at the point of care" That's different to what Farage favours, he advocates private health care.....
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 10:02:24 GMT
2014 EU Elections - Won by UKIP. 2015 General Election - Won by the Tories who offered a referendum. 2016 Referendum - Won by 'Leave'. 2017 General Election - The parties who pledged to honour the referendum result get over 80% of the votes. 2019 EU Elections - Won by the Brexit Party. Remoaners - "This shows that the country is still very divided. We need another vote!" LBC, Sky, the Beeb etc are all doing the "add up all the Remainers bit", forgetting that loads of Labour and Tory voters want Brexit! It's fucking incredible. It's such a disingenuous take on last nights results. I stand by what I said last night though, I thought the Brexit Party would have taken another 4/5% of the vote and gaines another 4/5 seats.
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Post by followyoudown on May 27, 2019 10:06:37 GMT
Seriously, what's the point of UKIP? They split the racist vote with Labour, Labour takes all the jew hating racists, UKIP take all the other racists.
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Post by trickydicky73 on May 27, 2019 10:06:39 GMT
I think you're underestimating the challenge Labour face when you look at the makeup of their support. Whatever your views on Corbyn it's a tough one to call. Ultimately you could put Yvette Cooper in charge of Labour on a neoliberal, remain platform and she would do well. But neoliberalism is a joke and this country needs radical change. I was an ardent remainer, but the genie is out of the bottle now and there's no going back. So as a democratic socialist I have to ask myself would I prefer to be in Europe with a Tory government in power for another 10-15 years? Or would I prefer to be out of Europe with a Labour government implementing a radical democratic socialist agenda to help bridge the absolute unfairness and equality in our society today, and to bridge the economic gap with a progressive green agenda? And the answer is unequivocally the latter. If Labour ride the storm, they could still win a general election in a first past the post system. People take the piss at that statement but I'm quite convinced they could albeit not necessarily with a parliamentary majority. Do they piss off their supporters in the metropolitan boroughs or their core support in the northern heartlands who have backed to leave the EU by a huge majority. If it's the second option the party as is toast....... Genuinely the best post I've seen on here since 'IloveGlennWhelan'. The huge issue is the stigma behind a socialist labour. There is a huge clamour for centrism and fuck knows why, because it's failed us for years and it has no moral value. Brexit in particular has been allowed to become a right wing issue, when there is a tremendous left wing case against the EU (see Green party policy about 5 years ago). It's terrifying, and eventually what will happen is another centre-right politician like Blair will come in and win the popular vote, then we'll be fucked again and go back to a right wing Tory govt. The public cry out for change to help normal people, then shit themselves when a politician offers anything left of centre. That's why I and others have been pleading for Jezza to go all out for Brexit. As BJR has been saying Brexit and socialism aren't mutually exclusive, as proved by Tony Benn and Dennis Skinner. Indeed, Benn argued the EU was an obstacle against socialism!
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Post by wizzardofdribble on May 27, 2019 10:07:04 GMT
They are beyond an embarrassment. You would think in a 2 party system where the Tories are rightly getting kicked for their ineptness, it would be an open goal for Labour. Nope. The most amazing thing is, they still don't get it - no surprise when your run by middle class snobs who have no concept of how real people think. The most amazing thing is though is that Corbyn will probably carry on despite a big chunk of his party and now core labour voters against him. I think you're underestimating the challenge Labour face when you look at the makeup of their support. Whatever your views on Corbyn it's a tough one to call. Ultimately you could put Yvette Cooper in charge of Labour on a neoliberal, remain platform and she would do well. But neoliberalism is a joke and this country needs radical change. I was an ardent remainer, but the genie is out of the bottle now and there's no going back. So as a democratic socialist I have to ask myself would I prefer to be in Europe with a Tory government in power for another 10-15 years? Or would I prefer to be out of Europe with a Labour government implementing a radical democratic socialist agenda to help bridge the absolute unfairness and equality in our society today, and to bridge the economic gap with a progressive green agenda? And the answer is unequivocally the latter. If Labour ride the storm, they could still win a general election in a first past the post system. People take the piss at that statement but I'm quite convinced they could albeit not necessarily with a parliamentary majority. Do they piss off their supporters in the metropolitan boroughs or their core support in the northern heartlands who have backed to leave the EU by a huge majority. If it's the second option the party as is toast....... If there was a GE next week and the Brexit Party stood then I believe Labour would win but obviously not with an overall majority. They would need support from Lib Dems and Greens to form a Government AND for that to happen Labour's Policy of 'constructive ambiguity' would have to go..they would have to join the Remain camp. And that's the problem for Labour..because once they do that..they lose support in their Northern and Welsh heartlands. And that's why we shouldn't expect any more clarity on Brexit from Labour (than we've had over the last 3 years) because once they do that..they shoot themselves in both feet.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on May 27, 2019 10:09:59 GMT
I thought they'd get enough votes to give them around 35 seats in parliament. UKIP got 24 last time and the Brexit Party are currently on 28, considering the current political landscape I thought the victory would be greater..... From a standing start 6 weeks ago to being the biggest single party from any European country in the EU Parliament whilst a vote for UKIP was still an option for many is amazing.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 10:10:26 GMT
Genuinely the best post I've seen on here since 'IloveGlennWhelan'. The huge issue is the stigma behind a socialist labour. There is a huge clamour for centrism and fuck knows why, because it's failed us for years and it has no moral value. Brexit in particular has been allowed to become a right wing issue, when there is a tremendous left wing case against the EU (see Green party policy about 5 years ago). It's terrifying, and eventually what will happen is another centre-right politician like Blair will come in and win the popular vote, then we'll be fucked again and go back to a right wing Tory govt. The public cry out for change to help normal people, then shit themselves when a politician offers anything left of centre. Bingo. The amount of comfortable middle class "Blairite" Labour voters I come across doing down Corbyn and treating those who voted to leave the EU as ignorant makes me sick. Whether Corbyn is the man or not, Labour need to get back to their traditional values to try and rid this country of the current shower of shit, or just shut the doors and merge with the Lib Dems. You only have to look at Scandanavia, you can have values left of centre whilst still being a modern, progressive government It's in the interest of big business to get the public to swing right economically. Hence why there is still huge public stigma about being left wing, despite the fact that a huge number of people agree with left wing policies in blind surveys. See all the 'Corbyn would send this country to the dark ages' shite, helpfully posted by Alan Sugar actually, a billionaire who stands to lose a hell of a lot of his money should a left wing govt get in. People hate being ripped off, being forced to live in shite conditions, worrying about money endlessly and never being able to do what they want to do in life. Yet the people at the top of society are absolute geniuses at getting people to blame anything but hyper-capitalism and deregulation of big business
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Post by trickydicky73 on May 27, 2019 10:11:19 GMT
LBC, Sky, the Beeb etc are all doing the "add up all the Remainers bit", forgetting that loads of Labour and Tory voters want Brexit! It's fucking incredible. It's such a disingenuous take on last nights results. I stand by what I said last night though, I thought the Brexit Party would have taken another 4/5% of the vote and gaines another 4/5 seats. I put it down to Brexit voters thinking "What's the point?". Who can blame them?
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Post by ravey123 on May 27, 2019 10:16:58 GMT
You can tell how rattled the Remoaners have become by the lengths they're going to with their spin on the results. One recurring theme i’ve Heard on the radio especially from EU commentators is a statement such as “There is a rise in right wing EU scepticism resulting in a far right pro leave vote”. I’m sorry but that is just plain crap - they are now trying to group far right groups with pro leave groups. I voted Brexit and I’m about as left as it gets. What the fuck would Tony Benn have made of all this?
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 10:17:08 GMT
I thought they'd get enough votes to give them around 35 seats in parliament. UKIP got 24 last time and the Brexit Party are currently on 28, considering the current political landscape I thought the victory would be greater..... From a standing start 6 weeks ago to being the biggest single party from any European country in the EU Parliament whilst a vote for UKIP was still an option for many is amazing. It's not like they had to sit around a table and construct a load of policies to debate though. Their current manifesto could be written on a fag packet, "Leave the EU under WTO terms" If they stick around, that's when it will get more difficult......
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Post by bathstoke on May 27, 2019 10:17:49 GMT
Disagree. We heard it all before in 2014 when UKIP won 24 seats in the EU elections which translated into 1 measly seat in the General election. EU and local elections are every different animals to General elections. Voting in the past was listening to a vast majority of my friends who were miners at the time, picking up a one sided daily paper and falling for their lies and deceit and mainly doing as instructed by our parents. It’s now mostly the Sun, Mail & even the Telegraph that are spouting hate...
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 10:20:50 GMT
Genuinely the best post I've seen on here since 'IloveGlennWhelan'. The huge issue is the stigma behind a socialist labour. There is a huge clamour for centrism and fuck knows why, because it's failed us for years and it has no moral value. Brexit in particular has been allowed to become a right wing issue, when there is a tremendous left wing case against the EU (see Green party policy about 5 years ago). It's terrifying, and eventually what will happen is another centre-right politician like Blair will come in and win the popular vote, then we'll be fucked again and go back to a right wing Tory govt. The public cry out for change to help normal people, then shit themselves when a politician offers anything left of centre. That's why I and others have been pleading for Jezza to go all out for Brexit. As BJR has been saying Brexit and socialism aren't mutually exclusive, as proved by Tony Benn and Dennis Skinner. Indeed, Benn argued the EU was an obstacle against socialism! Problem is it's too late now. His MPs wouldn't allow it prior to brexit and it's become far too tarnished with right wing policies for Corbyn to back it now. He should've done originally, I agree. Then there could've been a real debate about whether Brexit was worthwhile or not before the ref.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on May 27, 2019 10:21:48 GMT
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Post by trickydicky73 on May 27, 2019 10:21:53 GMT
Jezza just can't do it, can he? Just reiterated the old shit. I want to support Labour, but how can you when he won't offer leadership? Come on, Jezza, stand up to Watson and Thornberry.
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Post by oggyoggy on May 27, 2019 10:22:43 GMT
More people voted for the clear remain parties than the clear leave parties and lib dems made the biggest gains as the brexit party is just ukip Not having that. How do you know the reason they voted for these parties was because of their position on Remain....have you asked each one of them? You have just supported my initial points, thank you. The exact same argument can be used against Farage. If Farage is democratic, he cannot possibly shirk the challenge of no deal v remain to settle this once and for all. It’s obvious that needs to happen. Someone on the remain side needs to challenge Farage and be bold. If people want a no deal, it will win and that’s what we will get.
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Post by bathstoke on May 27, 2019 10:24:48 GMT
They are beyond an embarrassment. You would think in a 2 party system where the Tories are rightly getting kicked for their ineptness, it would be an open goal for Labour. Nope. The most amazing thing is, they still don't get it - no surprise when your run by middle class snobs who have no concept of how real people think. The most amazing thing is though is that Corbyn will probably carry on despite a big chunk of his party and now core labour voters against him. I was an ardent remainer, but the genie is out of the bottle now and there's no going back. I was thinking exactly the same thing the other day 🧞♂️
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 10:27:06 GMT
Jezza just can't do it, can he? Just reiterated the old shit. I want to support Labour, but how can you when he won't offer leadership? Come on, Jezza, stand up to Watson and Thornberry. Watson is a snake, he needs getting rid of. Devoid of any independent thought, just repeats what his lobbyist paymasters tell him on any particular day......
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Post by wizzardofdribble on May 27, 2019 10:29:11 GMT
The decision to Leave or Remain in the EU is largely an emotional one.
There's no point applying logic or facts to either side.
People will believe what they want to believe.
There's no 'right' or 'wrong' answers.
Everyone's opinion is valid.
And that's precisely why this mess will continue.
These EU Elections 'prove' nothing because people will interpret them the way they wan to.
And don't expect the new Tory Leader (or Prime Minister) to change anything..
The idea that they will get behind a No-Deal Brexit is fucking ridiculous..The Brexit Party now have that ground covered.
Expect the Tories under new leadership to move towards the centre ground to pick up votes from disgruntled Remain Labour Voters (Remain ground is now covered by Lib Dems/Greens)
In other words..The Brexit Show Rolls On..with no apparent or obvious solution.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on May 27, 2019 10:29:48 GMT
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Post by trickydicky73 on May 27, 2019 10:41:41 GMT
I am very suspicious of the sudden rise of The Green Party, too. Very pro EU, come to the fore just before the elections? Dodgy as fuck.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on May 27, 2019 10:45:29 GMT
I am very suspicious of the sudden rise of The Green Party, too. Very pro EU, come to the fore just before the elections? Dodgy as fuck. Skinny as fuck too, Tricky. They need to 'flesh' out their policies a bit more
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 10:45:43 GMT
I am very suspicious of the sudden rise of The Green Party, too. Very pro EU, come to the fore just before the elections? Dodgy as fuck. I suspect they're generally labour voters who want to remain and feel the lib dems are too centrist.
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Post by thevoid on May 27, 2019 10:52:00 GMT
I think we can rule England out of the running for next year's Six Nations. Add up all the Celtic nations' points and they'll go above us ☹
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Post by salopstick on May 27, 2019 10:53:28 GMT
LBC, Sky, the Beeb etc are all doing the "add up all the Remainers bit", forgetting that loads of Labour and Tory voters want Brexit! It's fucking incredible. It's such a disingenuous take on last nights results. I stand by what I said last night though, I thought the Brexit Party would have taken another 4/5% of the vote and gaines another 4/5 seats. The greens and Lib Dem’s May be pro remain but that is not their only policy. People will vote for them for reasons other than Brexit. It’s a very crude graph
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Post by salopstick on May 27, 2019 10:55:26 GMT
I think we can rule England out of the running for next year's Six Nations. Add up all the Celtic nations' points and they'll go above us ☹ Nah The welsh can win it on their own
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 10:55:47 GMT
I am very suspicious of the sudden rise of The Green Party, too. Very pro EU, come to the fore just before the elections? Dodgy as fuck. They did well all across Europe in fairness, up from 52 seats to 71. This is why it's disingenuous to claim all voters of the Greens etc were doing so because of Brexit, there is (rightly) a massive green agenda throughout the world at the moment (apart from in Trump's America) so some will have voted with that in mind.....
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