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Post by bayernoatcake on May 21, 2019 21:58:56 GMT
They do seem to fly in the face of what he says he wants in a player. As do Vokes and Batth. I don’t think that’s true though is it? He never said he was exclusively going to sign young players. At Luton he looked to strike a balance between the two. Vokes is the focal point he said he wanted. Gregory has energy and work rate and will lead the press. If we sign a 34 year old left back I’ll raise an eyebrow but I don’t really see the problem. Just because he might not have identified them personally in all cases doesn’t mean he hasn’t signed off on them or doesn’t want them. The evidence that the manager gets the final say is overwhelming, as the amount of Rowett shite clogging up the squad underlines. Not necessarily young. Good attitude - Vokes is a fat fuck. Powell’s attitude seems questionable at best. Energetic. Not really. Vokes is an awful focal point unless it’s to his feet or chest. The keeper is straight out of the lazy arsed guide to scouting. Batth for his attitude makes sense. But again wreaks of pizza and is good in small doses throughout the season in the long run. I just don’t think any of it makes any sense yet.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 21, 2019 22:00:26 GMT
Gayle wouldn’t have worked under Rowett would he? He’s not a lone striker. Again the issue really is tactics. And who’s the former director? David Edwards - on the board for most of the 90s alongside Coates, so don't need 3 guesses to work out where he'd have got the info from It is a daft choice but I still don’t think Afobe is that bad of a signing and should score 15 if used right.
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Post by Gary Hackett on May 21, 2019 22:01:44 GMT
Must just be a coincidence that both were linked to us last summer, strange that. Irrelevant. He decides if they're the ones he wants. The possibilities come from a number of places - ones that the manager has in his head from previous clubs, ones that he's individually identified and ones that the scouting department has identified based on the criteria the manager outlines for a certain position Rowett went for Clucas and McClean the season previous at Derby, had worked with Ince before and his first-team coach thought Afobe was Thierry Henry. In the end, manager has 100% autonomy to go the way he wants as this demonstrates. Cartwright doesn't sit there with a gun to his head. Obviously Batth and Vokes were ones that were on the club shortlist and were ones we'd decided ticked boxes previously - the local paper even highlighted that and it wasn't exactly made a secret of. But Jones wanted a.) an old-fashioned defender and .) a big target man - both of good character. Jones weighed up the options and plumped for these 2 having been here for a week and needing reinforcements This summer we'll obviously go for targets some of which he identifies completely off his own bat, just like Rowett did, like James Justin or other Luton players Then in the end he'll decide which way to go when weighed against others. Jones couldn't have been more clear about how it works. There's no big conspiracy. Unfortunately in the past, we've made some absolute howlers. Precisely. End of conversation.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 21, 2019 22:03:14 GMT
Irrelevant. He decides if they're the ones he wants. The possibilities come from a number of places - ones that the manager has in his head from previous clubs, ones that he's individually identified and ones that the scouting department has identified based on the criteria the manager outlines for a certain position Rowett went for Clucas and McClean the season previous at Derby, had worked with Ince before and his first-team coach thought Afobe was Thierry Henry. In the end, manager has 100% autonomy to go the way he wants as this demonstrates. Cartwright doesn't sit there with a gun to his head. Obviously Batth and Vokes were ones that were on the club shortlist and were ones we'd decided ticked boxes previously - the local paper even highlighted that and it wasn't exactly made a secret of. But Jones wanted a.) an old-fashioned defender and .) a big target man - both of good character. Jones weighed up the options and plumped for these 2 having been here for a week and needing reinforcements This summer we'll obviously go for targets some of which he identifies completely off his own bat, just like Rowett did, like James Justin or other Luton players Then in the end he'll decide which way to go when weighed against others. Jones couldn't have been more clear about how it works. There's no big conspiracy. Unfortunately in the past, we've made some absolute howlers. Precisely. End of conversation. I really don’t buy it. No one we’ve been linked with or bought fits with what I expected he’d go for. They wreak of the pizza boys though.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 21, 2019 22:03:29 GMT
I don’t think that’s true though is it? He never said he was exclusively going to sign young players. At Luton he looked to strike a balance between the two. Vokes is the focal point he said he wanted. Gregory has energy and work rate and will lead the press. If we sign a 34 year old left back I’ll raise an eyebrow but I don’t really see the problem. Just because he might not have identified them personally in all cases doesn’t mean he hasn’t signed off on them or doesn’t want them. The evidence that the manager gets the final say is overwhelming, as the amount of Rowett shite clogging up the squad underlines. Not necessarily young. Good attitude - Vokes is a fat fuck. Powell’s attitude seems questionable at best. Energetic. Not really. Vokes is an awful focal point unless it’s to his feet or chest. The keeper is straight out of the lazy arsed guide to scouting. Batth for his attitude makes sense. But again wreaks of pizza and is good in small doses throughout the season in the long run. I just don’t think any of it makes any sense yet. I don’t agree about Vokes. And either way that’s clearly the idea behind the signing, so it makes sense even if he isn’t in your mind doing what you think he should be doing. That’s what he’s being used as, as opposed to say using Afobe as a lone striker when he clearly isn’t one and never really has been. You didn’t mention Gregory. Is that because he actually does fit the profile? Batth May well have been identified by the pizzas but Jones will have signed off on it.
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Post by Gary Hackett on May 21, 2019 22:06:06 GMT
In fact hadn't the Chuckle brothers got Gayle all tied up on a deal and Rowett demanded Adobe? Yep - according to a former club director. We can thank Phillips and Rowett for that stroke of genius! Maybe we should keep these decisions out of the hands of the manager and give the Pizzas more discretion Let's hope we're not sitting here end of next season discussing how Vokes and Gregory were poor signings by the current manager.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 21, 2019 22:07:23 GMT
Not necessarily young. Good attitude - Vokes is a fat fuck. Powell’s attitude seems questionable at best. Energetic. Not really. Vokes is an awful focal point unless it’s to his feet or chest. The keeper is straight out of the lazy arsed guide to scouting. Batth for his attitude makes sense. But again wreaks of pizza and is good in small doses throughout the season in the long run. I just don’t think any of it makes any sense yet. I don’t agree about Vokes. And either way that’s clearly the idea behind the signing, so it makes sense even if he isn’t in your mind doing what you think he should be doing. That’s what he’s being used as, as opposed to say using Afobe as a lone striker when he clearly isn’t one and never really has been. You didn’t mention Gregory. Is that because he actually does fit the profile? Batth May well have been identified by the pizzas but Jones will have signed off on it. I do think Vokes will score quite a few (if Jones gets it right and Vokes comes back lean I expect 20) but we shall. We can’t just lump it to his head from the centre backs though. It doesn’t work. Old and not better than the two we have? No not at all, he’s about the only one I haven’t criticised and I couldn’t be arsed to go there! Oh I agree he signed off on them, I just have little faith that he’d tell them bollocks!
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Post by questionable on May 21, 2019 22:08:36 GMT
Not necessarily young. Good attitude - Vokes is a fat fuck. Powell’s attitude seems questionable at best. Energetic. Not really. Vokes is an awful focal point unless it’s to his feet or chest. The keeper is straight out of the lazy arsed guide to scouting. Batth for his attitude makes sense. But again wreaks of pizza and is good in small doses throughout the season in the long run. I just don’t think any of it makes any sense yet. I don’t agree about Vokes. And either way that’s clearly the idea behind the signing, so it makes sense even if he isn’t in your mind doing what you think he should be doing. That’s what he’s being used as, as opposed to say using Afobe as a lone striker when he clearly isn’t one and never really has been. You didn’t mention Gregory. Is that because he actually does fit the profile? Batth May well have been identified by the pizzas but Jones will have signed off on it. In truth mate he’s not really going to speak up in front of them is he after only a few months in the job, if it goes tits up he can always blame someone else.
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Post by Gary Hackett on May 21, 2019 22:12:23 GMT
Precisely. End of conversation. I really don’t buy it. No one we’ve been linked with or bought fits with what I expected he’d go for. They wreak of the pizza boys though. Surely they wreak more of a manager saying one thing and doing another which is more worrying. Or a manager with no real plan like Hughes in the end just buying players with no absolute plan.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 21, 2019 22:12:53 GMT
I don’t agree about Vokes. And either way that’s clearly the idea behind the signing, so it makes sense even if he isn’t in your mind doing what you think he should be doing. That’s what he’s being used as, as opposed to say using Afobe as a lone striker when he clearly isn’t one and never really has been. You didn’t mention Gregory. Is that because he actually does fit the profile? Batth May well have been identified by the pizzas but Jones will have signed off on it. I do think Vokes will score quite a few (if Jones gets it right and Vokes comes back lean I expect 20) but we shall. We can’t just lump it to his head from the centre backs though. It doesn’t work. Old and not better than the two we have? No not at all, he’s about the only one I haven’t criticised and I couldn’t be arsed to go there! Oh I agree he signed off on them, I just have little faith that he’d tell them bollocks! He’s a better fit than Afobe and scored more goals than him in a considerably worse team. He already has told them bollocks on a few in January and that would be a fairly odd lie to tell when he could’ve just said nothing.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 21, 2019 22:14:14 GMT
I don’t agree about Vokes. And either way that’s clearly the idea behind the signing, so it makes sense even if he isn’t in your mind doing what you think he should be doing. That’s what he’s being used as, as opposed to say using Afobe as a lone striker when he clearly isn’t one and never really has been. You didn’t mention Gregory. Is that because he actually does fit the profile? Batth May well have been identified by the pizzas but Jones will have signed off on it. In truth mate he’s not really going to speak up in front of them is he after only a few months in the job, if it goes tits up he can always blame someone else. But he already has. How much evidence do you need, again look at Rowett’s signings (which you keep ignoring) who were very much his men. They fit a pattern, as did most of Hughes’ signings.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 21, 2019 22:14:48 GMT
Also, can we all start spelling ‘reek’ properly?
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 21, 2019 22:14:51 GMT
I really don’t buy it. No one we’ve been linked with or bought fits with what I expected he’d go for. They wreak of the pizza boys though. Surely they wreak more of a manager saying one thing and doing another which is more worrying. Or a manager with no real plan like Hughes in the end just buying players with no absolute plan. Maybe.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 21, 2019 22:19:47 GMT
I do think Vokes will score quite a few (if Jones gets it right and Vokes comes back lean I expect 20) but we shall. We can’t just lump it to his head from the centre backs though. It doesn’t work. Old and not better than the two we have? No not at all, he’s about the only one I haven’t criticised and I couldn’t be arsed to go there! Oh I agree he signed off on them, I just have little faith that he’d tell them bollocks! He’s a better fit than Afobe and scored more goals than him in a considerably worse team. He already has told them bollocks on a few in January and that would be a fairly odd lie to tell when he could’ve just said nothing. Has he? Who? And then why sign a fat fuck like Vokes who quite frankly should be ashamed of the state he let himself get in to. And Gregory scored two more in 800 more minutes of football and according to an XG thing I saw today, they were easier chances. So Millwall were better at creating than us (which doesn’t surprise me) and they all scored at a similar rate. And that for me is the crux of the matter with our attack. We don’t create enough.
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Post by Gary Hackett on May 21, 2019 22:25:48 GMT
He’s a better fit than Afobe and scored more goals than him in a considerably worse team. He already has told them bollocks on a few in January and that would be a fairly odd lie to tell when he could’ve just said nothing. Has he? Who? And then why sign a fat fuck like Vokes who quite frankly should be ashamed of the state he let himself get in to. And Gregory scored two more in 800 more minutes of football and according to an XG thing I saw today, they were easier chances. So Millwall were better at creating than us (which doesn’t surprise me) and they all scored at a similar rate. And that for me is the crux of the matter with our attack. We don’t create enough. Powell should help with that to be fair. I'm not a fan of this diamond formation though, I can't see how we can create from wide areas unless we sign 2 fantastic full backs with pace, crossing ability whilst being solid at defending. These sort of players cost millions and are like rocking horse shit.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 21, 2019 22:28:39 GMT
He’s a better fit than Afobe and scored more goals than him in a considerably worse team. He already has told them bollocks on a few in January and that would be a fairly odd lie to tell when he could’ve just said nothing. Has he? Who? And then why sign a fat fuck like Vokes who quite frankly should be ashamed of the state he let himself get in to. And Gregory scored two more in 800 more minutes of football and according to an XG thing I saw today, they were easier chances. So Millwall were better at creating than us (which doesn’t surprise me) and they all scored at a similar rate. And that for me is the crux of the matter with our attack. We don’t create enough. No names were mentioned (and of course they wouldn’t be) but he said he was offered players in January that he turned down. The movement of the striker is important in creating chances and his movement can’t be much worse than Afobe’s, so I’m all in on that.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 21, 2019 22:31:26 GMT
Has he? Who? And then why sign a fat fuck like Vokes who quite frankly should be ashamed of the state he let himself get in to. And Gregory scored two more in 800 more minutes of football and according to an XG thing I saw today, they were easier chances. So Millwall were better at creating than us (which doesn’t surprise me) and they all scored at a similar rate. And that for me is the crux of the matter with our attack. We don’t create enough. No names were mentioned (and of course they wouldn’t be) but he said he was offered players in January that he turned down. The movement of the striker is important in creating chances and his movement can’t be much worse than Afobe’s, so I’m all in on that. Afobe makes some decent runs though, it’s just no fucker passes so he gives up. Which I think is understandable when you know what’s behind you. And it’s been like that for years. Sadly Ince who has the quality to do seems to have bought into the passing sideways when a forward pass is on culture at the club.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 21, 2019 22:33:21 GMT
Has he? Who? And then why sign a fat fuck like Vokes who quite frankly should be ashamed of the state he let himself get in to. And Gregory scored two more in 800 more minutes of football and according to an XG thing I saw today, they were easier chances. So Millwall were better at creating than us (which doesn’t surprise me) and they all scored at a similar rate. And that for me is the crux of the matter with our attack. We don’t create enough. Powell should help with that to be fair. I'm not a fan of this diamond formation though, I can't see how we can create from wide areas unless we sign 2 fantastic full backs with pace, crossing ability whilst being solid at defending. These sort of players cost millions and are like rocking horse shit. He will when he’s not injured and he’s not an improvement on what we have. Agree re the formation. It’s a massive ask. Edwards I think will be fine on the right. We obviously need a left back. But to rely on them seems mad. It’s just a formation with loads of massive flaws. But he’s got to make it work.
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Post by LGH87 on May 21, 2019 22:36:45 GMT
No names were mentioned (and of course they wouldn’t be) but he said he was offered players in January that he turned down. The movement of the striker is important in creating chances and his movement can’t be much worse than Afobe’s, so I’m all in on that. Afobe makes some decent runs though, it’s just no fucker passes so he gives up. Which I think is understandable when you know what’s behind you. And it’s been like that for years. Sadly Ince who has the quality to do seems to have bought into the passing sideways when a forward pass is on culture at the club. The problem is Bayern, on the odd occasion the run is spotted we either over/under hit the pass and on the rare occasion we do actually find Afobe he is either outmuscled, outpaced or just loses it himself. He’s the only player I’ve ever seen in my life that even when he has the ball under control he looks like he doesn’t.
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Post by Gary Hackett on May 21, 2019 22:37:09 GMT
Powell should help with that to be fair. I'm not a fan of this diamond formation though, I can't see how we can create from wide areas unless we sign 2 fantastic full backs with pace, crossing ability whilst being solid at defending. These sort of players cost millions and are like rocking horse shit. He will when he’s not injured and he’s not an improvement on what we have. Agree re the formation. It’s a massive ask. Edwards I think will be fine on the right. We obviously need a left back. But to rely on them seems mad. It’s just a formation with loads of massive flaws. But he’s got to make it work. Yeah it's a massive gamble alright and one I don't think we can afford to make. Talking of flying full backs, isn't Moreno from Liverpool available on a free? Not sure he's defensively sound or that he'd come here but he's worth considering.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 21, 2019 22:38:18 GMT
No names were mentioned (and of course they wouldn’t be) but he said he was offered players in January that he turned down. The movement of the striker is important in creating chances and his movement can’t be much worse than Afobe’s, so I’m all in on that. Afobe makes some decent runs though, it’s just no fucker passes so he gives up. Which I think is understandable when you know what’s behind you. And it’s been like that for years. Sadly Ince who has the quality to do seems to have bought into the passing sideways when a forward pass is on culture at the club. He really doesn’t. He can barely be arsed to job back onside half the time. He’s frequently awol when we have the ball in the final third and frequently fails to bust a gut to get into good positions. He’s been misused to a point as he isn’t a lone striker, but he seems to have very little game to speak of. He’s woeful on the ball and too often invisible off it.
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Post by Gary Hackett on May 21, 2019 22:40:27 GMT
Afobe makes some decent runs though, it’s just no fucker passes so he gives up. Which I think is understandable when you know what’s behind you. And it’s been like that for years. Sadly Ince who has the quality to do seems to have bought into the passing sideways when a forward pass is on culture at the club. He really doesn’t. He can barely be arsed to job back onside half the time. He’s frequently awol when we have the ball in the final third and frequently fails to bust a gut to get into good positions. He’s been misused to a point as he isn’t a lone striker, but he seems to have very little game to speak of. He’s woeful on the ball and too often invisible off it. Jones should have seen enough of Afobe to realise he's not the answer to any question, which again is very worrying.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 21, 2019 22:41:48 GMT
Afobe makes some decent runs though, it’s just no fucker passes so he gives up. Which I think is understandable when you know what’s behind you. And it’s been like that for years. Sadly Ince who has the quality to do seems to have bought into the passing sideways when a forward pass is on culture at the club. The problem is Bayern, on the odd occasion the run is spotted we either over/under hit the pass and on the rare occasion we do actually find Afobe he is either outmuscled, outpaced or just loses it himself. He’s the only player I’ve ever seen in my life that even when he has the ball under control he looks like he doesn’t. Oh his touch is appalling no arguments here.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 21, 2019 22:43:00 GMT
Afobe makes some decent runs though, it’s just no fucker passes so he gives up. Which I think is understandable when you know what’s behind you. And it’s been like that for years. Sadly Ince who has the quality to do seems to have bought into the passing sideways when a forward pass is on culture at the club. He really doesn’t. He can barely be arsed to job back onside half the time. He’s frequently awol when we have the ball in the final third and frequently fails to bust a gut to get into good positions. He’s been misused to a point as he isn’t a lone striker, but he seems to have very little game to speak of. He’s woeful on the ball and too often invisible off it. We very get the ball to get into a good position. And if you do and McClean is on then you’re not expecting it are you!
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 21, 2019 22:43:50 GMT
He will when he’s not injured and he’s not an improvement on what we have. Agree re the formation. It’s a massive ask. Edwards I think will be fine on the right. We obviously need a left back. But to rely on them seems mad. It’s just a formation with loads of massive flaws. But he’s got to make it work. Yeah it's a massive gamble alright and one I don't think we can afford to make. Talking of flying full backs, isn't Moreno from Liverpool available on a free? Not sure he's defensively sound or that he'd come here but he's worth considering. Sevilla want him I still have a horrible feeling Tymon will appear again.
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Post by Gary Hackett on May 21, 2019 22:48:09 GMT
Yeah it's a massive gamble alright and one I don't think we can afford to make. Talking of flying full backs, isn't Moreno from Liverpool available on a free? Not sure he's defensively sound or that he'd come here but he's worth considering. Sevilla want him I still have a horrible feeling Tymon will appear again. Jesus, if we ever see him again we'll be playing league 1 football soon after.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 21, 2019 22:51:20 GMT
Sevilla want him I still have a horrible feeling Tymon will appear again. Jesus, if we ever see him again we'll be playing league 1 football soon after. Jones clearly fancied him. He was toss against Shrewsbury and then given another chance. It was very weird. Hooking him is about the second best decision Jones has made for us. From a total of about 4.
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Post by tony1234 on May 21, 2019 23:05:59 GMT
Has he? Who? And then why sign a fat fuck like Vokes who quite frankly should be ashamed of the state he let himself get in to. And Gregory scored two more in 800 more minutes of football and according to an XG thing I saw today, they were easier chances. So Millwall were better at creating than us (which doesn’t surprise me) and they all scored at a similar rate. And that for me is the crux of the matter with our attack. We don’t create enough. Powell should help with that to be fair. I'm not a fan of this diamond formation though, I can't see how we can create from wide areas unless we sign 2 fantastic full backs with pace, crossing ability whilst being solid at defending. These sort of players cost millions and are like rocking horse shit. Yes, its a good "sense test" once NJ's side materialises. We need around 70 goals if aspiring to be in the Play offs. So, who will realistically score them, and who realistically creates them? With the more usual 4231, say, then you tend to have 20 or so from your striker, and 10ish from 2-3 from wide attacking midfielders or central midfielders. A wide player in a successful team is making 10 assists. So you can get a sense of the "recipe" by which they scored regularly: The CF is being fed by a CAM/second striker, wide player and central midfielder. Newcastle 2016/17: Gayle 23 goals (2 assists), Perez 9(6), Ritchie 12(7) and Shelvey 5(8) Wolves 2017/18: Jota 17 goals (5 assists), Bonatini 12(5), Carvaleiro 9(12) + Douglas 5(14). Norwich 2018/18: Pukki 29(9), Vranic 10(7), Buendia 8(12), Stierperman 8(9), Hernandez 8(9). Sheff Utd 2018/19 had a 352 - so had two pretty prolific strikers but two highly productive creators in central midfield Sharp 23(4), McGoldrick 15(4) assisted by Fleck 2(10) and Norwood 3(8) The diamond is just unknown. Being generous, could see perhaps 2 of Vokes, Afobe and Gregory getting an average of 15 each = 30. Powell scoring 8 and making 8-10 assists. But after that, I don't see any of Etebo, Clucas, Woods, Maclean or Verlinden creating more than a smattering from MF - capping the scoring capabilities of the front two. Will our full backs chip in? They'll then really need to if we are to be getting upwards of 55 goals at best, and with that, a likely mid-table spot. While I like Tom Edwards a lot, he doesn't strike me as a player to make 10 assists. Just not enough goals in the side, at this level, with a diamond. It might work if we were to get a goal scoring/creative CM: Mason Mount, say. Massimo Luongo I like at QPR who scored and created a hatful the season before last, before he was played more as a CDM. I sense NJ is more likely to add someone with the profile of Sawyers to the mix though in CM, if anyone, and that wouldn't solve the problem of creativity.
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Post by clarkeda on May 23, 2019 6:24:12 GMT
He will when he’s not injured and he’s not an improvement on what we have. Agree re the formation. It’s a massive ask. Edwards I think will be fine on the right. We obviously need a left back. But to rely on them seems mad. It’s just a formation with loads of massive flaws. But he’s got to make it work. Yeah it's a massive gamble alright and one I don't think we can afford to make. Talking of flying full backs, isn't Moreno from Liverpool available on a free? Not sure he's defensively sound or that he'd come here but he's worth considering. He’s linked with Barca no chance unfortunately
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Post by FullerMagic on May 23, 2019 9:58:24 GMT
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