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Post by mickmillslovechild on Jan 13, 2019 13:46:18 GMT
I hate the term ' he's a great shot stopper ' Isn't that the number fucking one criteria of being a goalkeeper ? I think its a polite way of saying a keeper is not able to do all the other things expected of a modern sweeper/keeper. Nothing to do with being a modern sweeper/keeper at all Gods, hence the term "shot stopper" being around for years before any of that came in. The midfield shout to and communicate with all other players around them and command their area of the pitch when necessary, the defence do the same in their area of the pitch and the goalkeeper does the same in his area. It's about positioning the other players where you want them to cover you and commanding your area against the opposition by knowing when to come for the ball and where to be to narrow down angles, to make shooting harder for the attackers and therefore easier for him to save. All done instinctively and split second decisions, same as any other player on the pitch. Keeping has NEVER been about just standing there and stopping shots at all! There are lots of qualities needed for being in goal, Jack has great shot stopping ability (possibly the best out there) but very little else.
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Post by wrighter on Jan 13, 2019 13:49:56 GMT
Anyone on here remember the late 60/early 70"s ?
You had Peter [the cat ] Bonetti, diving all over the place,very acrobatic for the viewer , but not neccesary
then, you had Gordon Banks, who didnt have to fling himself around like a demented John Cleese, as he positioned himself so well. almost knowing where the ball was coming from, [ yes, he did dive [ eg Pele] " when needed "
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2019 13:50:03 GMT
The hype around Pickford's footballing ability has got to Jack. He always seems so keen to impress with his feet.
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Post by wrighter on Jan 13, 2019 13:52:28 GMT
The hype around Pickford's footballing ability has got to Jack. He always seems so keen to impress with his feet. just my opinion, but to me Pickford is so over rated as a keeper
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2019 14:01:32 GMT
The hype around Pickford's footballing ability has got to Jack. He always seems so keen to impress with his feet. just my opinion, but to me Pickford is so over rated as a keeper He has a mistake in him but I think he is a far more consistent goalkeeper than Jack and it shows.
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Post by shangamuzo on Jan 13, 2019 14:04:17 GMT
I've seen Bert Williams,Yashin & Gordon Banks in their prime, and believe me Butland is a million miles away from their class. Never heard of Bert Williams but Yashin and Gordon 'the cat ' Banks are THE greatest keepers. How Banks got down to THAT downward header of Pele I'll never know.
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Post by Pugsley on Jan 13, 2019 14:34:26 GMT
He’s been a Championship keeper for two years. His regression ties in with the entire clubs. That's very well put. 👍 Well put industrial arse gravy. Imagine playing behind this defence. Imagine Butland leaving and having Federici in goals.
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Post by southcoaststokie on Jan 13, 2019 14:42:28 GMT
I think its a polite way of saying a keeper is not able to do all the other things expected of a modern sweeper/keeper. Nothing to do with being a modern sweeper/keeper at all Gods, hence the term "shot stopper" being around for years before any of that came in. The midfield shout to and communicate with all other players around them and command their area of the pitch when necessary, the defence do the same in their area of the pitch and the goalkeeper does the same in his area. It's about positioning the other players where you want them to cover you and commanding your area against the opposition by knowing when to come for the ball and where to be to narrow down angles, to make shooting harder for the attackers and therefore easier for him to save. All done instinctively and split second decisions, same as any other player on the pitch. Keeping has NEVER been about just standing there and stopping shots at all! There are lots of qualities needed for being in goal, Jack has great shot stopping ability (possibly the best out there) but very little else. Exactly why I used the term shot stopper, Goalkeeping is so much more, especially these days, as you say, they have to communicate, command their area, , come and collect crosses,the keeper is the guy in charge of the penalty area , every manager now includes the goalkeepers in some of the training, as well as their own goalkeeping training, as they have to be so good on the ball, be able to control it and distribute it, Jack is great at stopping shots not so great at organising or commanding his box, how often do you see Jack shout and scream at the players before a shot has got off ? , plenty of times after a shot or goal has gone in, and don't even get me on saving penaltys.
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Post by Edward Tattsyrup on Jan 13, 2019 14:46:00 GMT
The hype around Pickford's footballing ability has got to Jack. He always seems so keen to impress with his feet. just my opinion, but to me Pickford is so over rated as a keeper I'd have Bego over Pickford and Butland all day!
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Post by Gods on Jan 13, 2019 14:53:44 GMT
I think its a polite way of saying a keeper is not able to do all the other things expected of a modern sweeper/keeper. Nothing to do with being a modern sweeper/keeper at all Gods, hence the term "shot stopper" being around for years before any of that came in. The midfield shout to and communicate with all other players around them and command their area of the pitch when necessary, the defence do the same in their area of the pitch and the goalkeeper does the same in his area. It's about positioning the other players where you want them to cover you and commanding your area against the opposition by knowing when to come for the ball and where to be to narrow down angles, to make shooting harder for the attackers and therefore easier for him to save. All done instinctively and split second decisions, same as any other player on the pitch. Keeping has NEVER been about just standing there and stopping shots at all! There are lots of qualities needed for being in goal, Jack has great shot stopping ability (possibly the best out there) but very little else. Which is exactly what I said. Call a keeper a 'great shot stopper' these days and you are damning him with faint praise. What you in fact mean is that he doesn't do all the other things well that you describe above. I don't know another way of putting it!
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Jan 13, 2019 14:57:49 GMT
Nothing to do with being a modern sweeper/keeper at all Gods, hence the term "shot stopper" being around for years before any of that came in. The midfield shout to and communicate with all other players around them and command their area of the pitch when necessary, the defence do the same in their area of the pitch and the goalkeeper does the same in his area. It's about positioning the other players where you want them to cover you and commanding your area against the opposition by knowing when to come for the ball and where to be to narrow down angles, to make shooting harder for the attackers and therefore easier for him to save. All done instinctively and split second decisions, same as any other player on the pitch. Keeping has NEVER been about just standing there and stopping shots at all! There are lots of qualities needed for being in goal, Jack has great shot stopping ability (possibly the best out there) but very little else. Which is exactly what I said. Call a keeper a 'great shot stopper' these days and you are damning him with faint praise. What you in fact mean is that he doesn't do all the other things well that you describe above. I don't know another way of putting it! Shit, sorry mate.....no idea why i didn't see what you were saying. I get you now, my bad (as the kiddies say) I suppose the point i'm making is that all of the things i listed aren't anything exclusively to do with modern day sweeper keepers anyway. They're things that keepers have always been expected to do i.e. command their area, organise their defence etc.
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Post by nott1 on Jan 13, 2019 15:01:08 GMT
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Post by werrington on Jan 13, 2019 15:02:32 GMT
Fuck me ....have we really got fans actively willing to sell Jack Butland, not because he’ll generate cash but because they think he’s wank
Fucking idiots
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Jan 13, 2019 15:05:14 GMT
Fuck me ....have we really got fans actively willing to sell Jack Butland, not because he’ll generate cash but because they think he’s wank Fucking idiots He's not wank (and i wouldn't sell him) but even allowing for how bad our defence is, he's still nowhere near as reliable as he was a while back is he?
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Post by werrington on Jan 13, 2019 15:07:15 GMT
Fuck me ....have we really got fans actively willing to sell Jack Butland, not because he’ll generate cash but because they think he’s wank Fucking idiots He's not wank (and i wouldn't sell him) but even allowing for how bad our defence is, he's still nowhere near as reliable as he was a while back is he? He’s an excellent keeper mate and we should hang onto him for as long as is able Those in front of him are comedy capers and are the sole reason for the shambles....not Jack Butland
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Jan 13, 2019 15:15:16 GMT
He's not wank (and i wouldn't sell him) but even allowing for how bad our defence is, he's still nowhere near as reliable as he was a while back is he? He’s an excellent keeper mate and we should hang onto him for as long as is able Those in front of him are comedy capers and are the sole reason for the shambles....not Jack Butland I don't think we could get any better mate and am happy to keep him (completely agree with you that those that want him selling are muppets). I don't think he is to blame and am certainly not blaming him at all. No keeper can save everything. I simply think he isn't as reliable or as consistent as he was a while back and he never really commanded an area or organised a defence well even when he was at his best. He was knocking on the door for the England number 1 spot for a fair while, but i think few would now disagree that he's slipped down the pecking order and he couldn't really argue against that. Not saying he's a bad keeper at all and in our position we'd be stupid to think we could do any better than him, but i also don't think we'll have to feel as worried as we used to about having to fend off big bids in transfer windows. Is he a good keeper? Yes Is he as good as he used to be? No
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Post by Absolution on Jan 13, 2019 15:30:38 GMT
Given the choice of Butland playing behind our current defence or Federici playing behind a decent defence, I'd be prepared to sacrifice Butland.
Put another way, I think having a solid defence is more important than having an ill at ease and underperforming potentially great keeper between the sticks.
If we need to sell Butland to fund a new defence then I'd be OK with that.
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Post by walton corner on Jan 13, 2019 15:58:11 GMT
And people say we have a top keeper Coach....butland getting worse on commanding his box and catching ...and Jacob haagard completely toss and hasn’t improved since at club
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Post by Absolution on Jan 13, 2019 16:07:52 GMT
And people say we have a top keeper Coach....butland getting worse on commanding his box and catching ...and Jacob haagard completely toss and hasn’t improved since at club Begovic put Andy Quy among the biggest influences on his career. Speaks really highly of him.
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Post by scfcwebby on Jan 13, 2019 16:29:36 GMT
I dread to think where we'd be without Butland this season. Bang on mate Single handedly saved us 5-10 points
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Post by middleoftheboothen on Jan 13, 2019 16:32:53 GMT
Fuck me ....have we really got fans actively willing to sell Jack Butland, not because he’ll generate cash but because they think he’s wank Fucking idiots Exactly my thoughts mate and fucking idiots is a perfect description of them. I give up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2019 16:54:51 GMT
Fuck me ....have we really got fans actively willing to sell Jack Butland, not because he’ll generate cash but because they think he’s wank Fucking idiots Exactly my thoughts mate and fucking idiots is a perfect description of them. I give up. I'm certainly not in the sell Jack Butland camp, as there are far bigger worries in our squad, but you cannot knock folk for saying that Butland doesn't command his six yards area very well, is ropey on high balls crossed in and can't kick a football very well at all. His confidence has taken a battering over the last season or so, for whatever reason and he isn't half the keeper he was before his injury, that isn't even up for debate in my opinion. His shot stopping abilities are the only part of his game that haven't dropped a level or two, but that isn't enough to be a top class goalkeeper and a dream move to a top premier league side is further away for him than its ever been.
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Post by jontimmis on Jan 13, 2019 21:36:31 GMT
I can’t see him being here much longer to be fair. I think he’ll go not so sure about this jan but in the summer for a decreased price. Mad we were talking 20+ pre season. No chance. No more than 10m in my opinion.
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Post by biglad180 on Jan 13, 2019 22:09:06 GMT
just my opinion, but to me Pickford is so over rated as a keeper I'd have Bego over Pickford and Butland all day! so would i
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Post by PotterEd on Jan 14, 2019 10:04:17 GMT
He's not been good enough for at least a year or so now. From what I've heard about Jones' style, he'll want a Keeper who can play with the ball at his feet, start attacks off etc. Jack is not that Keeper.
I'd never heard of Brentford's keeper, Bentley, before but he looked much more capable - good vision and execution.
If we can get 15m for Jack, I'd take that straightaway.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2019 11:07:09 GMT
He's not been good enough for at least a year or so now. From what I've heard about Jones' style, he'll want a Keeper who can play with the ball at his feet, start attacks off etc. Jack is not that Keeper. I'd never heard of Brentford's keeper, Bentley, before but he looked much more capable - good vision and execution. If we can get 15m for Jack, I'd take that straightaway. This is why I love message boards. 15mill for Jack and if that happened you'd get dozens of threads set up with people frothing at the mouth wanting Coates, Scholes & Cartwright hung because they should have got 35mill as he's as good as Pickford and half as good as Alisson.
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Post by baltipiesmuggler on Jan 14, 2019 11:12:48 GMT
Needs to be way more aggressive in around his box. His kicking is awful at times. Certainly pulls out some excellent saves still however.
Either way, can't see big bids rolling in.
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Post by PotterEd on Jan 14, 2019 11:13:47 GMT
He's not been good enough for at least a year or so now. From what I've heard about Jones' style, he'll want a Keeper who can play with the ball at his feet, start attacks off etc. Jack is not that Keeper. I'd never heard of Brentford's keeper, Bentley, before but he looked much more capable - good vision and execution. If we can get 15m for Jack, I'd take that straightaway. This is why I love message boards. 15mill for Jack and if that happened you'd get dozens of threads set up with people frothing at the mouth wanting Coates, Scholes & Cartwright hung because they should have got 35mill as he's as good as Pickford and half as good as Alisson. Football's all about opinions....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2019 11:16:28 GMT
This is why I love message boards. 15mill for Jack and if that happened you'd get dozens of threads set up with people frothing at the mouth wanting Coates, Scholes & Cartwright hung because they should have got 35mill as he's as good as Pickford and half as good as Alisson. Football's all about opinions.... Yeah that's why I said I love message boards :-)
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Post by mcw on Jan 14, 2019 12:05:45 GMT
He's got all the attributes, but is completely devoid of any confidence. Used to play in nets myself and when confidence was high you were coming for everything, when you are low on confidence you are hoping any corners are going outside of the 6 yard box so you don't have to come for them. That low confidence means every decision is not instinctive, you are thinking shall I come or not and by the time you make your mind up it is 50/50 as to whether you have made the right decision! Exceptionally talented in relation to reactions, athleticism etc but not where he needs to be mentally at the moment- that can come back, but having this bunch of geriatric has beens in front of him is not helping..
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