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Post by Gods on Nov 13, 2018 10:01:12 GMT
This question was asked on another long Benik Afobe thread last week, although he did at least get a couple of capital letters in his name in that one!
The consensus appeared to be 'we think so'.
The goals have dried up from him that's for sure. But that leads to another debate where there is also no definitive answer, is it Benik's fault or a lack of service? My guess is both!
On arrival he was hailed by many on here as 'our 20+ goals a season man', well that one has gone, but now the wider question is 'is he in fact any good at all?'
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Post by scfc75 on Nov 13, 2018 10:12:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2018 10:22:49 GMT
I think it's a case of:
1) He just looks a poor footballer, reminds me of Cameron Jerome.
2) We have decided to give up on attacking as a team. Our best ball player spend the game holding hands with the centre halves.
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Post by bridgnorthstokie on Nov 13, 2018 10:27:02 GMT
Benik will score us loads of goals in this league if ...
He is part of a 2 man strike force - he is not a lone striker.
We have wingers who occasionally cross a ball .
We have a midfield who can play a ball forward for him to run into.
It's the system which is failing the player.
We are draining his confidence with our current setup
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2018 10:30:35 GMT
Is he that good though? His runs off the ball lack intelligence, his anticipation is poor.
I've seen Edwards whip many good balls in to the box and not once has he been in the right place.
His touch is pretty poor. He scored early in the season as all we did is attack.
Don't get me wrong we aren't helping him but on the other hand he isn't helping himself.
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Post by dadofsam on Nov 13, 2018 10:34:20 GMT
He's getting an easy ride for my money. OK we're not creating loads but that doesn't excuse him playing statues in the box.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2018 10:42:10 GMT
How many clear cut chances is he missing per game?
How much of his lack of chances is down to poor movement and/or poor service?
How much is down to tactics?
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Post by thevoid on Nov 13, 2018 10:47:24 GMT
I don't think the manager's tactic of subbing him when he decides he needs to 'go for it' and actually brings attacking players on helps.
He's not playing in a system or approach that suits him.
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Post by xchpotter on Nov 13, 2018 10:54:16 GMT
Have him over Diouf any day of the week. As mentioned, it’s not his fault he is played up on his own and we don’t cross.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 13, 2018 10:55:53 GMT
Benik will score us loads of goals in this league if ... He is part of a 2 man strike force - he is not a lone striker. We have wingers who occasionally cross a ball . We have a midfield who can play a ball forward for him to run into. It's the system which is failing the player. We are draining his confidence with our current setup I think it's a bit of both to be honest. He doesn't look enormously interested for quite a lot of the time. I don't think we've so much given up on attacking (at home anyway), we're just shit at it. Teams come here to defend and we have maybe a maximum of two players who can unpick a defence. And one of those hardly ever starts. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 13, 2018 10:56:51 GMT
How many clear cut chances is he missing per game? How much of his lack of chances is down to poor movement and/or poor service? How much is down to tactics? His link up play is almost non-existent too though, and if you're on your own up front that's not great. A fair bit is down to poor movement as well I'd suggest. |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Nov 13, 2018 10:58:23 GMT
Edwards can put a good ball in...but on Saturday all but 2 or 3 were too long or too quickly delivered for Afobe to get on the end of. Don't get me wrong Edwards crossing will produce goals this season, but I think the quality of his crosses is being somewhat exaggerated. They mainly end up high at the backpost which is normally the target for a knockdown rather than an actual header at goal. Which points to errors in the set up and how Afobe is being used.
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Post by thebet365 on Nov 13, 2018 10:58:34 GMT
Could we send benny back in to Wolves in January or are we obliged to buy him.- thanks No the deal was effectively a permanent deal delayed by 6 months in the form of a loan. |
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Post by GeneralFaye on Nov 13, 2018 10:59:52 GMT
It's not a coincidence every striker we sign fails, it's other aspects of the team that are to blame. He might not be the best striker but he should be good enough for what our aspirations were at the start of the season.
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Post by mrred on Nov 13, 2018 11:14:23 GMT
Just another striker to succumb to the Stoke City disease. 3 successive managers seemingly have no idea how to play and get the best out of a striker.
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Post by rawli on Nov 13, 2018 11:19:10 GMT
Wrong player for the system. Need a fast aggressive player who will run all day and pick up scraps. He's just not that. Don't think Rowett expected to have to play so defensively and he's now become the wrong player at the wrong time.
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Post by RF10 on Nov 13, 2018 11:31:00 GMT
He doesn't do anything but score which at the moment is failing miserably at. However more goals need to come from all over the pitch.
In 07/08 the amount of goals Lawrence, Cresswell, Cort and Shawcross chipped in with made the difference.
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Post by metalhead on Nov 13, 2018 11:59:52 GMT
My frustration with Afobe is his complete inability in the air it seems. He's 6ft tall. Muscly. Built. Yet I reckon I could win a header against him, and I'm 5ft8 and weigh 12st. How can a player with the build of Fuller, Sidibe, et al, be so consistently beaten in the air? Fuller was never world class in the air, but he won his fair share. I seem to say more often than not "Afobe has to fucking win that". I don't remember the last time I said "that's a great knock down from Afobe" or "he's done well in the air there".
He's clearly a talented footballer and he has a lot more pace than I expected. His ability on the ball far surpasses some of the earlier suggestions like Jerome but honestly, I'd back Jerome to score more had we signed him, and he's 32 these days.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 13, 2018 12:10:44 GMT
Its one of those situations where both things are true, sadly. Afobe is crap but Harry Kane would look like Keith Scott in this side.
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Post by jezzascfc on Nov 13, 2018 14:05:34 GMT
Every half decent striker we have signed in the last ten years, bar Fuller and, briefly, Beattie, has looked worse for Stoke in the same league in which they excelled for another team. Some, like Saido and the ginger whinger Kitson, have contributed to their own downfall, but many others have been on starvation rations of service (particularly under Pulis, Lambert and Rowett) that not even an Aguero could salvage a 10 goal season from.
Is it any coincidence that Benny was scoring goals when we actually did a bit of attacking at the start of the season, yet is now on a long goal drought since Rowett shut the back door at the expense of any real attacking intent? I think not.
We know what he is and how he plays. He is not a target man, not a big, physical hold up player, or a great header of the ball. He is a pacey, playing on the shoulder of the last man, balls down the channels for him to run onto, type of striker. All strikers go through fallow spells, but barely one chance a game (and, to be fair, he should have got their keeper sent off when sent clear down the inside right channel by a great pass from Woods on Saturday, which probably would have changed the outcome of the match) is a paltry amount of service on which to judge any striker.
We either adjust how we set up to play to his strengths, or play another striker who fits the system Rowett has now chosen to use far better.
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Post by toppercorner on Nov 13, 2018 14:11:31 GMT
Rowett has to hold his hands up at this. The coaching is abysmal.
Our forwards get no service. We have one legitimate fit, winger who is crap (McClean), and he refuses to play the creative players who can make scoring opportunities.
Even Woods has gone backwards since he arrived.
No we just revert to lumping it upfield to no one in particular.
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Post by shangamuzo on Nov 13, 2018 14:12:34 GMT
What do you get for ten or twelve million quid these days especially in the striker department ? Not a lot unless you get lucky.
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Post by jezzascfc on Nov 13, 2018 14:15:54 GMT
What do you get for ten or twelve million quid these days esoecially in the striker department ? Not a lot unless you get lucky. Other teams have shown that you can get a Vardy or a Vydra or a Callum Wilson or a Lewis Grabban or an Andre Gray or an Ollie Watkins for not silly money, if you scout properly and/or are prepared to take a gamble. |
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Post by GeneralFaye on Nov 13, 2018 14:17:44 GMT
Nothing will change until the day Rowett realises you can't play a 3 man midfield with no creativity in it. This is an even bigger issue due to how wank we are out wide as well.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Nov 13, 2018 14:24:09 GMT
How many clear cut chances is he missing per game? How much of his lack of chances is down to poor movement and/or poor service? How much is down to tactics? His link up play is almost non-existent too though, and if you're on your own up front that's not great. A fair bit is down to poor movement as well I'd suggest. Why do our managers keep buying strikers who fare better in a two, then play one up front? |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 13, 2018 14:35:58 GMT
His link up play is almost non-existent too though, and if you're on your own up front that's not great. A fair bit is down to poor movement as well I'd suggest. Why do our managers keep buying strikers who fare better in a two, then play one up front? A very good question. Absolutely no idea. |
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Post by cousindupree on Nov 13, 2018 14:49:12 GMT
Nothing will change until the day Rowett realises you can't play a 3 man midfield with no creativity in it. This is an even bigger issue due to how wank we are out wide as well. Yes this is obvious to many but you might just about get away with it if you have a stellar front three consisting of players who can create something out of nothing. We have JM Ince and Afobe. Only Ince at a stretch is an instinctive finisher and can create. Afobe needs service and JM is just a head down run with the ball and his career stats suggest barely any goals. Other options are Diouf (woeful finisher) and Berahino who I am not sure what sort of player he is but rarely even gets into scoring positions through a lack of reading the game and a strikers instinct. It is a real problem but the manager has to change the system, Afobe has pedigree at this level and so does Ince, why are they not scoring in Rowett's team? So in the last five games goals have come from an o.g. from a cross, a smart direct free kick from Allen and Fletcher showing the front 3 where they should be in the box in order to finish. Add to this the paltry number of shots compared to the opposition and it's hard to see things getting better without radical change in personnel or system. The three arguably best attacking displays this season have come away to Rotherham and Sheff wed and home to Bolton. All three games were lineups without James McClean. |
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Post by santy on Nov 13, 2018 15:35:51 GMT
It's been a problem we've had since Hughes. Hughes, Lambert and Rowett have both failed to acknowledge and understand the switch that has happened in football. Opta have show the stats regularly, last time I saw them you generally expect around 1 goal per 80-90 crosses. The lone striker has been a dead concept arguably since Drogba could no longer do it for Chelsea. Numerous teams deploy someone in the guise of a lone striker, but the successful teams using that style have interchanging fluidity among their front line and create overloads. We haven't done that, Arnautovic and Shaqiri were free-roaming enough that at times they would end up doing it almost in-spite of the systems they were setup to play in rather than because of it.
Our build up play is very reminiscent of Arsenal in the early 2000's when the style arguably was at its peak. The team slowly moves up field in possession (although we tend to hit it long a bit more frequently) and everyone in their position eventually works an opening. We were taking the piss out of Wenger a decade ago though when everyone had figured out how to defend against it.
Goals generally now come from unforced errors, forced errors and overloads. There are still scintillating bits of build up play, where passing among a set formation can pull players out of position but that is so difficult to achieve because defensive discipline is at its highest in football now.
One of our big problems is we don't keep enough bodies to seize the opportunity when there's an unforced error (a wayward pass that went directly to Berahino a couple of games for example) and we don't press high enough up the pitch to force an error. This means our only hope then is overloads, but the only time we overloaded the opposition (in recent matches) in any area was for Fletchers goal. The only other times I've seen us do it is when we're losing.
Its been a persist issue with managers who have failed to adapt to this. You either need to keep 2 up top and concede the midfield defensively or you need to get significantly greater fluidity.
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Nov 13, 2018 15:48:16 GMT
Our midfield has zero creativity. Drop Allen or Etebo and put Bojan in the number 10 slot.
Otherwise Afobe might as well not be playing. He plays on the last defender and wants through-balls.
Hes NOT a big lump waiting for a hoof from Shawcross or cross from the wingers.
If Rowetts style is to build up slowly and attack down the wings then just PLAY CROUCH!!
Afobe is wasted on this teams tactics
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Post by shangamuzo on Nov 13, 2018 18:07:31 GMT
What do you get for ten or twelve million quid these days esoecially in the striker department ? Not a lot unless you get lucky. Other teams have shown that you can get a Vardy or a Vydra or a Callum Wilson or a Lewis Grabban or an Andre Gray or an Ollie Watkins for not silly money, if you scout properly and/or are prepared to take a gamble. That's a handful then between umpteen clubs all looking for the same thing. The club's below the top six or seven in the Prem are not much if any better than the top ten in the EFL. |
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