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Post by crapslinger on Aug 10, 2018 16:03:11 GMT
The point is why is the person responsible for sorting these long term highly paid contracts still in his job ! And how is it Tony Scholes' fault that those players haven't lived up to expectations? The club employ a manager to take care of the football side of things. They highlight players they want, pick teams and sort out tactics. If Tony Pulis tells the board he wants Charlie Adam, then they back him and do their best to bring him to the club. Likewise, if Mark Hughes wants Gianelli Imbula they find the money to sign him and if Mark Hughes wants to offer Charlie Adam a contract extension then they trust his judgment. As soon as that trust is lost, then they sack their manager and appoint a new one. Gary Rowett has wanted all the players he's brought here so far and the club have backed him. If Rowett and those players fail to deliver on the pitch, how on earth is Tony Scholes responsible? It's the contacts that are an issue in offloading the deadwood, they are simply on to much of a good thing, wages, contract length, terms and conditions etc are reasons we can not shift the shit, are you saying Scholes has no responsibility for these factors ?
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Post by tony1234 on Aug 10, 2018 16:03:41 GMT
... and by God we needed to!
Well done Gary - i sense it was mostly him pushing, because let's face it, let to their own devices, I'm not sure what Cartwright & Scholes would have managed. Sense he created tensions behind the scenes by being unrelentingly demanding of a new level of standard in terms of delivering players that the team needs. Their performnace in supporting him over the past 10 weeks has been fairly shoddy, with their sluggishness, but "its a journey"/"Rome wasn't built in a day".
Saw the longer term plan from the PL squad was to sign 10 and get rid of 14, so there is lots of work to do over the coming 12-24 months to get rid of the rot and ensure we are still in a position to take opportunities in the market when they arise to continue strengthening iteratively over time.
We need a second striker, and ideally a second goal scoring wide forward/winger before the window shuts - then we couldn;t realistically have asked for more.
Already won round by Maclean because I can see what he can bring. Concerned by Clucas, only because of his injury and our shit scouting/diligence capabilities.
Everyone is going to need a bit time after this to bed in.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 10, 2018 16:04:48 GMT
The CEO/director and Technical Director should and can surely stop ridiculous contract extensions? I’m fact, that sort of thing as a strategic mid/long term decision should be made them. I think they're moving away from the five-year deals to the four, which is a step in the right direction. The five year deals were probably an overreaction to the Nzonzi situation. It’s more the extensions I’m thinking of. Like giving a 31 year old a deal until he’s 35 etc. I get that the manager will want a players contract extended but the length should be decided by someone who should be looking at the bigger picture.
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Post by crapslinger on Aug 10, 2018 16:08:47 GMT
I think they're moving away from the five-year deals to the four, which is a step in the right direction. The five year deals were probably an overreaction to the Nzonzi situation. It’s more the extensions I’m thinking of. Like giving a 31 year old a deal until he’s 35 etc. I get that the manager will want a players contract extended but the length should be decided by someone who should be looking at the bigger picture. Apparently Scholes has nothing to do with contract negotiations other than doing what he is told by whatever manager we have at the time , what is the point of having him at all.
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Post by Davef on Aug 10, 2018 16:10:44 GMT
And how is it Tony Scholes' fault that those players haven't lived up to expectations? The club employ a manager to take care of the football side of things. They highlight players they want, pick teams and sort out tactics. If Tony Pulis tells the board he wants Charlie Adam, then they back him and do their best to bring him to the club. Likewise, if Mark Hughes wants Gianelli Imbula they find the money to sign him and if Mark Hughes wants to offer Charlie Adam a contract extension then they trust his judgment. As soon as that trust is lost, then they sack their manager and appoint a new one. Gary Rowett has wanted all the players he's brought here so far and the club have backed him. If Rowett and those players fail to deliver on the pitch, how on earth is Tony Scholes responsible? It's the contacts that are an issue in offloading the deadwood, they are simply on to much of a good thing, wages, contract length, terms and conditions etc are reasons we can not shift the shit, are you saying Scholes has no responsibility for these factors ? He negotiates with players and agents and tries to meet their demands, but he's not the man who decides which players the club wants or keeps. I can perfectly understand why some people would think we've handed out silly contracts to some players, but like I said before, the club has a duty to either back or sack their football manager.
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Post by Davef on Aug 10, 2018 16:11:12 GMT
It’s more the extensions I’m thinking of. Like giving a 31 year old a deal until he’s 35 etc. I get that the manager will want a players contract extended but the length should be decided by someone who should be looking at the bigger picture. Apparently Scholes has nothing to do with contract negotiations other than doing what he is told by whatever manager we have at the time , what is the point of having him at all. Oh grow up.
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Post by Pricey on Aug 10, 2018 16:12:27 GMT
I think they're moving away from the five-year deals to the four, which is a step in the right direction. The five year deals were probably an overreaction to the Nzonzi situation. It’s more the extensions I’m thinking of. Like giving a 31 year old a deal until he’s 35 etc. I get that the manager will want a players contract extended but the length should be decided by someone who should be looking at the bigger picture. Is the contract information here accurate? www.transfermarkt.com/stoke-city/kader/verein/512/saison_id/2018/plus/1If so, Charlie Adam?!
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Post by jezzascfc on Aug 10, 2018 16:13:30 GMT
The simple fact is that the "process" which is apparently fine brought us relegation and a number of expensive misfits on big contracts. The public faces of that process are Cartwright and Scholes. They both get very well paid to be so. When it fails, they get the flak - it goes with the territory.
This summer's business should be judged on 1st September. So far we have some, but not all, of the pieces in place for a squad which can threaten a swift return to the Premier League. Our ability to assemble that squad is hampered by the failures of the past and too many who the current manger is not particularly keen on hanging around on fat salaries. It may take a year for that to be properly sorted.
Rowett seems Pulis-like in his demand for new recruits and ability to deflect the blame for failing to land targets onto others - this is a good thing, to my mind. He knows that poor results on the pitch will be put down to him, so he is pushing to bring in players he believes will deliver for him. Hughes/Lambert seemed far too acquiescent in the "process" for my liking. The manager needs to be pushy in setting out what he wants as his job will ultimately depend on it.
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Post by Davef on Aug 10, 2018 16:14:44 GMT
It’s more the extensions I’m thinking of. Like giving a 31 year old a deal until he’s 35 etc. I get that the manager will want a players contract extended but the length should be decided by someone who should be looking at the bigger picture. Is the contract information here accurate? www.transfermarkt.com/stoke-city/kader/verein/512/saison_id/2018/plus/1If so, Charlie Adam?! He's got another 12 months to run Pricey.
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Post by tony1234 on Aug 10, 2018 16:18:59 GMT
Tony Scholes has absolutely no say on who we sign, can we get that clear?! I still find it astounding how his name gets lumped in with Carto and the different managers we've had when it comes to the playing staff. It's up to Scholes to agree the deals for the players once they have been identified by the manager/scouting network. Do you seriously think it's up to him to say "erm, are you sure we should be signing him? I think he's a bit shit"... no one would bloody listen even if he did say that. Now, if you don't like the way he negotiates, take the last minute debacle with Clucas for an example, fair enough. I'm also not a fan of the long 5 year contracts we were dishing out for fun either and that IS on Tony's watch. I just think we need to get it right in terms of who we're directing criticism at and for what. In simple terms, Tony works in a financial structure mapped out by the owners so if you aren't satisfied with the amount of money we're spending and perceived "penny pinching" antics then that's on Coates' watch surely?! Anyway, I'm sure I'll get a load of abuse for going against the grain here so I can't wait ...but as CEO - isn't Scholes charged with delivering the overall business strategy?... i.e. ensuring that each function or area of the club are set targets, have controls in place and achieve their objectives so that they deliver performance standards that allows the club to achieve their overall strategy? (That's the typical role of a CEO). He is most certainly not the one to pick the players, but if he has not taken action to ensure areas have the right objectives, skills, resources, performance levels and controls - he is most-certainly 100% accountable. And certainly, he should be central to devising an overall strategy for the evolution of the squad - not in terms of the technicalities of the players, but in terms of it being the club's biggest financial asset: In that case, he is almost singularly responsible if we now have a lot of costly "deadwood" because it speaks of a squad where Stoke have bought lots of players at the peak of their value, on the cusp of decline, who are not willng to move on because they can't repeat their wage. An anology will hold in most businesses: it would be the equivalent of holding far too much stock that can't be sold, or buying outmoded machinery that depreciates too rapidly, so risks sustaining the overall financial sustainability. This is a clear, foreseeable financial and strategic risk (as much as a footballing one). I don't see anyone else who could be culpable but the one who overseas both the financial statement and the health of the operation i.e. the CEO?
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Post by crapslinger on Aug 10, 2018 16:19:51 GMT
It's the contacts that are an issue in offloading the deadwood, they are simply on to much of a good thing, wages, contract length, terms and conditions etc are reasons we can not shift the shit, are you saying Scholes has no responsibility for these factors ? He negotiates with players and agents and tries to meet their demands, but he's not the man who decides which players the club wants or keeps. I can perfectly understand why some people would think we've handed out silly contracts to some players, but like I said before, the club has a duty to either back or sack their football manager. We don't think we have handed out silly contracts! we fcuking know we have, Scholes negotiates these contracts yet is still in his job despite the players we can not shift due to them having contracts that no one else will match.
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Post by Pricey on Aug 10, 2018 16:20:08 GMT
He's got another 12 months to run Pricey. Shit.
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Post by christhepotter on Aug 10, 2018 16:21:08 GMT
7 signings but have we addresses our biggest problem from last season which was our defence , no we haven’t
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 10, 2018 16:22:00 GMT
It’s more the extensions I’m thinking of. Like giving a 31 year old a deal until he’s 35 etc. I get that the manager will want a players contract extended but the length should be decided by someone who should be looking at the bigger picture. Is the contract information here accurate? www.transfermarkt.com/stoke-city/kader/verein/512/saison_id/2018/plus/1If so, Charlie Adam?! He had a one year stealth extension that came to light about 8 months ago.
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Post by crapslinger on Aug 10, 2018 16:22:19 GMT
Apparently Scholes has nothing to do with contract negotiations other than doing what he is told by whatever manager we have at the time , what is the point of having him at all. Oh grow up. Yes dad.
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Post by adi on Aug 10, 2018 16:25:42 GMT
Signing players in positions we need? We have. We've signed a striker. We've signed a centre half. We've signed two wingers. We've signed a versatile midfielder. We've re-signed or kept hold of some really important players. We are still a little short in certain areas but I'd expect another 2 loan players in at least over the next few weeks. Like the OP asked, what more were you expecting? I think we should’ve shifted some out, gotten viable left back competition and maybe signed an attacking mid. Question is, how happy do we think rowett is?
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chinapotter
Academy Starlet
"Looking jolly from Stoke" -Mark E. Smith
Posts: 219
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Post by chinapotter on Aug 10, 2018 16:43:03 GMT
The thread title’s a great discussion starter! The problem (based on Sunday) is that our “strongest 11” (almost unanimously acknowledged on here before kick off) was shit. Disinterested, disorganized, disgraceful. We can sign another ten and we can - like it or not - keep paying millions to the “dead wood”. It’s all irrelevant until our so-called “strongest 11” plays like they care and have a clue how to play together. Next game is huge: has Rowett learned and adjusted, based on what he saw last week? Have the players got any dignity, or are they content to be a shit team? We’ll soon see.
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Post by roylandstoke on Aug 10, 2018 16:46:58 GMT
I think people are concerned that we got relegated with a lot of bang average players and no clear style of play that accommodated their strengths, and over the summer we appear to have increased the number of similar players and have so far shown no signs of developing a more effective style of play.
It is very early to feel so despondent; let´s hope Saturday brings a glimpse of improvement.
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Post by nigelkeyercoker on Aug 10, 2018 17:34:07 GMT
Its literally because we aint looked great in pre season and leeds beat us easily. Had we beaten Leeds, it would be a different story. I think everyone would be happy that we'd kept onto Butland and Allen and bought in a couple of new additions. However as nearly everyone underperformed, everyone is panicking. I really think if Rowett sorts it out, we have a more than capable squad and can be destined for a good season, but it's a big if. Still cant work out myself if I am happy with the transfer window or not yet. Would love to see us sign Sam Vokes though, and maybe a winger!
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Post by Gods on Aug 10, 2018 17:42:38 GMT
Its literally because we aint looked great in pre season and leeds beat us easily. Had we beaten Leeds, it would be a different story. I think everyone would be happy that we'd kept onto Butland and Allen and bought in a couple of new additions. However as nearly everyone underperformed, everyone is panicking. I really think if Rowett sorts it out, we have a more than capable squad and can be destined for a good season, but it's a big if. Still cant work out myself if I am happy with the transfer window or not yet. Would love to see us sign Sam Vokes though, and maybe a winger! Agreed. The opening day defeat at Leeds United is casting a dark shadow over everything right now and making folks very edgy. We've spent the thick end of 40 million quid on 7 players and that's big beer for this division where average media rights money for an entire season is only £6 million! We have more than enough playing resources to mount a serious challenge. We really need to get on with things now and start to peg some 3-pointers on the board and build momentum.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 17:46:33 GMT
We have. We've signed a striker. We've signed a centre half. We've signed two wingers. We've signed a versatile midfielder. We've re-signed or kept hold of some really important players. We are still a little short in certain areas but I'd expect another 2 loan players in at least over the next few weeks. Like the OP asked, what more were you expecting? I think we should’ve shifted some out, gotten viable left back competition and maybe signed an attacking mid. Question is, how happy do we think rowett is? He should be very happy. He's managing the best squad of players he's ever had.
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Post by smallthorner on Aug 10, 2018 18:45:11 GMT
I think we should’ve shifted some out, gotten viable left back competition and maybe signed an attacking mid. Question is, how happy do we think rowett is? He should be very happy. He's managing the best squad of players he's ever had. Maybe the most unbalanced also.
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Post by mrcoke on Aug 10, 2018 18:46:12 GMT
7 signings but have we addresses our biggest problem from last season which was our defence , no we haven’t I agree. A successful team is built on a sound defence. Our highest GA defence last season has lost Zouma (and Wimmer) and gained Williams. It is a huge worry. I am generally happy with the 7 signings. Naturally top class #1 target signings would have been better, but clearly clubs were not going to sell or players did not want to come. Probably all the 7 signings will be in the 18 for match day, so we have turned over 39% in effect. To do more would necessitate selling/releasing more players, but no one wants them. At least we have not brought in any more players who are either (a) miss-fits at their previous clubs, (b) can't get a game, (c) haven't played competitively for months, (d) have dubious character (unless you count McClean's politics), or (e) not suited to the physicality of English football. Pick names for each category, there are lots to chose from! As GR has said we need to plug gaps and provide extra cover with some prudent loans, which makes it essential the transfer team off-load those players surplus to requirements.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 19:02:30 GMT
Signing players in positions we need? We have. We've signed a striker. We've signed a centre half. We've signed two wingers. We've signed a versatile midfielder. We've re-signed or kept hold of some really important players. We are still a little short in certain areas but I'd expect another 2 loan players in at least over the next few weeks. Like the OP asked, what more were you expecting? We need another striker to back up/replace the new man, because he's not very good and the ones Rowett inherited are no good at all. We didn't sign a centerhalf to build our future upon, but loaned an old man whose legs and mind is already gone. We signed two nominal wingers but they don't play wide and they don't deliver crosses. We signed a world cup playing midfielder who is unaccustomed to playing in the championship and another who is unfit. We resigned and kept hold of players who are unable to understand their holiday is over. What was I expecting? Players that look like they will get us promoted.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 19:05:35 GMT
With the possibilty if more to come, wtf would make them happy - if anything? Gouranga. 11 simples init
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 19:13:40 GMT
We have. We've signed a striker. We've signed a centre half. We've signed two wingers. We've signed a versatile midfielder. We've re-signed or kept hold of some really important players. We are still a little short in certain areas but I'd expect another 2 loan players in at least over the next few weeks. Like the OP asked, what more were you expecting? We need another striker to back up/replace the new man, because he's not very good and the ones Rowett inherited are no good at all. We didn't sign a centerhalf to build our future upon, but loaned an old man whose legs and mind is already gone. We signed two nominal wingers but they don't play wide and they don't deliver crosses. We signed a world cup playing midfielder who is unaccustomed to playing in the championship and another who is unfit. We resigned and kept hold of players who are unable to understand their holiday is over. What was I expecting? Players that look like they will get us promoted. We've played one game you massive drama queen. Afobe is a proven goalscorer at this level. Williams' mind has gone? Ah orate, think I'll wait to see him play myself to see if his legs have gone but don't just make shit up. We've signed two wide men also proven at this level and Ince's assist statistics prove you're talking absolute bollocks. You're moaning about the players we've signed who are accustomed to this league and you're also moaning about signing a player who isn't accustomed to this league, so make your mind up. Clucas would have undergone a medical and all the talk is that he should be ready for first team action in about a months time and our manager sees him as a midfielder and also cover for our left back.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 19:15:27 GMT
He should be very happy. He's managing the best squad of players he's ever had. Maybe the most unbalanced also. I'd wager that it won't be by the time the loan window shuts and even more so after Rowetts second transfer window in January is over.
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Post by stokie1954 on Aug 10, 2018 19:16:51 GMT
Good players, not average squad players. We want to get out the league not stay in it for the next 20 years paying off deadwood on silly contracts. Mo Salah? Lukaku? De Bruyne? Where all these available "good" players? Dele Alli. Peanuts from MK Dons. They are out there. It's called a scouting system. Fuckin wake up!.
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Post by smallthorner on Aug 10, 2018 19:18:24 GMT
Maybe the most unbalanced also. I'd wager that it won't be by the time the loan window shuts and even more so after Rowetts second transfer window in January is over. Obviously hope you are correct Vincent.. But January may be too late matey.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 19:18:38 GMT
We need another striker to back up/replace the new man, because he's not very good and the ones Rowett inherited are no good at all. We didn't sign a centerhalf to build our future upon, but loaned an old man whose legs and mind is already gone. We signed two nominal wingers but they don't play wide and they don't deliver crosses. We signed a world cup playing midfielder who is unaccustomed to playing in the championship and another who is unfit. We resigned and kept hold of players who are unable to understand their holiday is over. What was I expecting? Players that look like they will get us promoted. We've played one game you massive drama queen. Afobe is a proven goalscorer at this level. Williams' mind has gone? Ah orate, think I'll wait to see him play myself to see if his legs have gone but don't just make shit up. We've signed two wide men also proven at this level and Ince's assist statistics prove you're talking absolute bollocks. You're moaning about the players we've signed who are accustomed to this league and you're also moaning about signing a player who isn't accustomed to this league, so make your mind up. Clucas would have undergone a medical and all the talk is that he should be ready for first team action in about a months time and our manager sees him as a midfielder and also cover for our left back. Of course I am basing my opinion on one game and the pre season. Do you expect me to comment on the season after ten games when they haven't been played yet? As for Williams I'm looking at what he did, or rather didn't do, for Everton last season. Poor performances and red cards! But you should sign on as Scholes second in command...
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