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Post by realstokebloke on Jul 13, 2018 10:15:54 GMT
Like almost everyone else, I find Southgate very likeable as a bloke. He's intelligent, he speaks well, he's clearly a gentleman who treats people as he would like to be treated and he's made the England team at least a bunch that you want to see do well. However, I appear to be in something of a minority in that I think England were pretty crap on the whole and lost, in the end, to a far superior team on the night. In losing, it was clear from around 25 minutes, that Croatia were taking control of the midfield, that Ali and Lingaard were offering little to no support of Henderson but we let it happen and did nothing to change it. In a World Cup Semi-Final we had 1 shot on target and to me at least, the manager fell into the same trap as those previous managers who let a players reputation dictate his thinking. Ali is a good player but he's struggled with injury throughout the tournament and he should have been subbed during the Croatia game. Kane didn't go into the box for pretty much 2 games solid and whilst it hasn't been revealed yet, he's clearly been struggling with an injury, which has been kept quiet, since late in the Columbia game. He could barely move yet he was still picked ahead of others who could have done a far better job than him given his state of fitness. We were pretty ordinary v Tunisia after the opening 20 minutes, we thrashed Panama but barely created a chance from open play. Belgium was a nothing game but we were rubbish. Columbia was a brave rather than brilliant performance and we actually played pretty well, I thought, v Sweden. Against Croatia, we ran out of ideas and legs after 20 minutes and we lost to a far better side with a manager who sat back and appeared inactive in trying to reverse the tide. I don't buy the easy ride stuff. We beat teams that had seen to it that opponents we didn't want to face weren't around anymore and fair play for that. We didn't really play well though and we lost, comfortably, the game that mattered. Still a long way to go but I don't get the hype or plaudits that are floating around. We really do love a plucky loser in this country. Think "pretty crap on the whole" is a bit harsh.
There were some hugely positive aspects. And don't forget, even in the semi, we had them over a barrell in the first 30 (?) mins. One more and we've won.
But, equally, I broadly, agree.
There were obvious tactical deficiencies on show in the semi - we did get schooled - and Modric and their manager were right (& had every right) to point out that we were riding on a wave of opitimism that was built on less than sold foundations.
But ...GS has done a sterling job of reigniting interest in the side and of bring the country together and that is a huge positive to build on from here.
OK, he can't conjure up a Messi or a Modric overnight and he has got a massive conundrum up top for me currently (scoring goals from open play is as big as they get) - nevertheless part of that development is hopefully an injection of a bit more tactical nouse (possibly by beefing up the backroom?).
And for the record (& unless he solved all that in three days) I think France would have walloped us sadly.
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Post by realstokebloke on Jul 13, 2018 10:21:54 GMT
Substitutions Gareth! I dont want to be too critical because I like his tactical set-up for England and it was working for 35 minutes against Croatia BUT 2nd half we were clearly losing our position in the game and Croatia was dominating more and more. It was very reminiscent of watching Mark Hughes standing on the sideline incapable and seeing what changes need to be made to get back control. 1 substitution in normal time to replace Sterling with Rashford is borderline crazy. Henderson was being overrun in midfield and needed help it was so obvious. Yeah, it was crying out for a beefed up 4 4 2 or even 4 5 1 if needed.
But, hey, we're all armchair managers with 20/20 hindsight now.
I absolutely definitely wouldn't swap him though.
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 13, 2018 14:31:07 GMT
I don't really get the "misplaced arrogance" thing that Modric/Lovren/others seem to get their knickers in a twist about (for one, why on earth they're concerning themselves with England's feelings when they've just got into a World Cup final is beyond me). I've seen plenty unfounded confidence before from England fans - we basically expected to win every tournament we entered between about 1990 and 2006 - but I haven't seen it this time. "It's coming home" was always a bit tongue-in-cheek and based more on the favourable draw and the euphoric optimism of having a likable and decent young team and manager for a change, rather than any true feeling that we were the best team in the competition (which is what we've foolishly believed in the past). It was more of an underdog thing than an entitlement thing this time. Everyone knew the games were hard and I don't think anybody genuinely expected us to just roll Croatia over (apart from maybe Rio Ferdinand)... and from what I've seen people have taken this defeat with good grace and accepted Croatia were the better team - another refreshing change. I don't think anyone was really disrespectful or deluded about our chances. edit, just realised this is not really anything to do with the points being made in the thread but well, just something I've been thinking about
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Post by jimmygscfc on Jul 13, 2018 14:58:44 GMT
The real issue is how we do better from the pool of players we have. Talking about us being a young side is erroneous really when you look at it. Yes, we lacked experience overall, particularly in tournament football, but I don't see which of the squad are going to become world beaters in the next two years. Rashford is still very young and could develop into an excellent player, but in his cameo against Croatia, the old hands of their defence had him sorted. Sterling flatters to deceive and splits opinion, so I won't hold my breath. I think circumstances and Southgate's relatively effective but limited tactics saw us get to the semi. How we become better and whether we have a proper Plan B remains to be seen.
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Post by superheroantonius on Jul 13, 2018 19:35:28 GMT
I personally can't fault Southgate
He had the players organised , playing as a team and all giving a hundred percent
For the same reason , I can't fault the players
The only thing I personally would have changed is Danny Rose for Ashley young , because wingers / wide men ,who cut inside all the time , does my head in , and I am personally convinced it's ineffective . How can running into traffic and congestion be better than overlapping , and whipping a cross in .
Though at the same time , I understand that he wanted to work with young and trippier , at set piece delivery , and was convinced they could get us goals
I think the only fair way to judge Southgate , is to say , could I have done better ? I definitely couldn't . And I very much doubt many on here could
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 14, 2018 7:36:26 GMT
The question we should be asking is how come a nation with a population of 4 million, which probably doesn't invest anywhere near the amounts we do in the game, produce technically better players than England ? we have nobody like Moderic and haven't had a technically gifted midfielder since Gascoigne. Scholes, Gerrard, Lamps,Beckham could all play.No one about right now though. Hopefully Foden fulfills his promise. Only Beckham came anywhere near the class of Moderic. The point about Scholes, Gerrard, and Lampard is they were excellent team players for their clubs, where they reached much higher levels of performance than when in an England team. The same applies to Sterling today; he is a brilliant "piece of the team jigsaw" for ManC, but does not produce for England despite all his effort. He has not scored since 2015 must tell people something, but people don't see it. Hopefully the young players like Foden will play to their full potential in the future, but for me the emphasis has to be on teamwork and building a team around world class players not just a collection of individuals who can "all play". I hope Southgate is given long enough to develop true team work, it takes a long time, particularly when the international players play together so infrequently against stiff opposition.
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Post by JoeinOz on Jul 14, 2018 8:00:46 GMT
Southo seems a thoroughly decent chap. Hopefully he enjoys this adulation before the backlash starts.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jul 14, 2018 8:40:15 GMT
Scholes, Gerrard, Lamps,Beckham could all play.No one about right now though. Hopefully Foden fulfills his promise. Only Beckham came anywhere near the class of Moderic. The point about Scholes, Gerrard, and Lampard is they were excellent team players for their clubs, where they reached much higher levels of performance than when in an England team. The same applies to Sterling today; he is a brilliant "piece of the team jigsaw" for ManC, but does not produce for England despite all his effort. He has not scored since 2015 must tell people something, but people don't see it. Hopefully the young players like Foden will play to their full potential in the future, but for me the emphasis has to be on teamwork and building a team around world class players not just a collection of individuals who can "all play". I hope Southgate is given long enough to develop true team work, it takes a long time, particularly when the international players play together so infrequently against stiff opposition. Scholes was the best player of that bunch by a country mile.
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Post by noustie on Jul 14, 2018 9:24:55 GMT
I don't really get the "misplaced arrogance" thing that Modric/Lovren/others seem to get their knickers in a twist about (for one, why on earth they're concerning themselves with England's feelings when they've just got into a World Cup final is beyond me). I've seen plenty unfounded confidence before from England fans - we basically expected to win every tournament we entered between about 1990 and 2006 - but I haven't seen it this time. "It's coming home" was always a bit tongue-in-cheek and based more on the favourable draw and the euphoric optimism of having a likable and decent young team and manager for a change, rather than any true feeling that we were the best team in the competition (which is what we've foolishly believed in the past). It was more of an underdog thing than an entitlement thing this time. Everyone knew the games were hard and I don't think anybody genuinely expected us to just roll Croatia over (apart from maybe Rio Ferdinand)... and from what I've seen people have taken this defeat with good grace and accepted Croatia were the better team - another refreshing change. I don't think anyone was really disrespectful or deluded about our chances. edit, just realised this is not really anything to do with the points being made in the thread but well, just something I've been thinking about Was saying the same thing to my mates down there - this time has been genuine excitement and disbelief rather than the arrogance of previous tournaments. Like said before thought you were genuinely likeable throughout with a young team and manager just proud as fuck be representing England. Going out the fans didn't smash the place up and don't think it was fear of Russian police but more it was the genuine fans out there. Singing Don't Look Back In Anger at the end was class. What was also really refreshing was the genuine acceptance the better side won rather than a witchhunt to find those responsible. Saw Keane giving Wright a hard time and even thought that was out of order as who the fuck wouldn't get excited about getting to a world cup semi then dream of the final? In any case he spent the summer of 2002 walking the legs off his dog so personally think his opinion should have been ridiculed anyway. In terms of Southgate think he should be supported to the hilt but he defo has a bit to learn. Croatia pinned your wingbacks back and the plan seemed to be just to bunt it up top. Croatia dropped back and gobbled that up meaning the winner of the game was going be whoever controlled the massive space between defence and upfront and with their players that was only going be Croatia. Their full backs got forward unopposed and there didn't seem any answer. Needed an extra body in midfield for me and in the next four years needs to find someone who can put their foot on the ball and slow it the fuck down for 10 minutes. Hate the phrase 'game management' but Modric and Rakotic controlled large swathes of the tempo of the game from the second half onwards. Going forward I genuinely think if the media can keep their shit in order Southgate could create something similar to Germany with the way you're performing through the age groups. It'll be difficult to control expectancy though as Euro 2020 semi/ final is Wembley but there is no way Holland, Italy, Germany and Spain will be so shit again plus a Ronaldoless Portugal could be interesting - add Croatia, Belgium and France and it should not be taken as a given in any shape or form.
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Post by werrington on Jul 14, 2018 9:25:57 GMT
Only Beckham came anywhere near the class of Moderic. The point about Scholes, Gerrard, and Lampard is they were excellent team players for their clubs, where they reached much higher levels of performance than when in an England team. The same applies to Sterling today; he is a brilliant "piece of the team jigsaw" for ManC, but does not produce for England despite all his effort. He has not scored since 2015 must tell people something, but people don't see it. Hopefully the young players like Foden will play to their full potential in the future, but for me the emphasis has to be on teamwork and building a team around world class players not just a collection of individuals who can "all play". I hope Southgate is given long enough to develop true team work, it takes a long time, particularly when the international players play together so infrequently against stiff opposition. Scholes was the best player of that bunch by a country mile. Individually they were all superb footballers mate and in the correct international side and a manager who had a clue they would of all gone on to greater things at international level It’s all hypothetical now though
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jul 14, 2018 9:41:27 GMT
Scholes was the best player of that bunch by a country mile. Individually they were all superb footballers mate and in the correct international side and a manager who had a clue they would of all gone on to greater things at international level It’s all hypothetical now though If they’d have had the bottle to score a penalty or two they might’ve done anyway mate. Is a shame that the managers of the time were so obsessed with cramming them all into the team rather than having the bollocks to drop one or two and find a system that got the best out of the rest.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jul 14, 2018 9:44:25 GMT
The Golden Shower Generation were massively overrated as a group and as individuals.
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Post by werrington on Jul 14, 2018 9:46:07 GMT
Individually they were all superb footballers mate and in the correct international side and a manager who had a clue they would of all gone on to greater things at international level It’s all hypothetical now though If they’d have had the bottle to score a penalty or two they might’ve done anyway mate. Is a shame that the managers of the time were so obsessed with cramming them all into the team rather than having the bollocks to drop one or two and find a system that got the best out of the rest. If only we’d of had one of those every 4 years instead of all 4 in the same period ....oh well
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Post by noustie on Jul 14, 2018 9:52:46 GMT
The Golden Shower Generation were massively overrated as a group and as individuals. Always felt Carrick was undervalued - 34 caps seems pretty ridiculous for someone who the Spanish press felt was the only Englishman that would get in their squad during their glory days.
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Post by JoeinOz on Jul 14, 2018 13:45:05 GMT
The Golden Shower Generation were massively overrated as a group and as individuals. That asinine golden generation tag was first used by Adam Crozier in a throwaway comment. The problem is it stuck and became something to beat those players with. I felt, and still do feel, they were good players but not necessarily good enough to really make a mark at the business end of a world cup. The main reason being they were all so thick. If we were going win a trophy it was 2004.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Jul 14, 2018 13:47:32 GMT
The Golden Shower Generation were massively overrated as a group and as individuals. Always felt Carrick was undervalued - 34 caps seems pretty ridiculous for someone who the Spanish press felt was the only Englishman that would get in their squad during their glory days. A Carrick in our midfield during this tournament would've made a big difference. Obviously, a Carrick from a few years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2018 13:56:47 GMT
The fact Sven tried to force three of the best midfielders we've ever had into a 442 didn't help.
Owen Cole Lampard(or Rooney) Beckham Scholes Gerrard Cole Terry Ferdinand Neville Robinson
Would've won something in my opinion.
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on Jul 14, 2018 18:05:09 GMT
The Golden Shower Generation were massively overrated as a group and as individuals. That asinine golden generation tag was first used by Adam Crozier in a throwaway comment. The problem is it stuck and became something to beat those players with. I felt, and still do feel, they were good players but not necessarily good enough to really make a mark at the business end of a world cup. The main reason being they were all so thick. If we were going win a trophy it was 2004. Our players are always thick. Being thick is championed over being intelligent. You must be 'gay' if you have any ounce of intelligence in football unfortunately. This culture has got to change.
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Post by jonparkinsgut on Jul 14, 2018 19:11:22 GMT
That’s stating the obvious, well done. Oh and well done Gareth on our first semi final for a long long time, but beware people are watching and waiting for you to slip up! Christ sakes! 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️ The obvious that in the previous post you were poo pooing. No, not at all. Again, it's HYPOTHETICAL. Again, IF he does screw it up, then there is a discussion to be had. IF. Quantify "screwing up"
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Post by jonparkinsgut on Jul 14, 2018 19:23:28 GMT
It's difficult to really take the game in when you're in that moment. At no point do I remember thinking it was particularly rubbish, despite us getting battered, but once you come out of that hazy bubble, you begin to realise we made a mess of it, sadly. If we'd have got that second goal in the first half, I think we'd have relaxed and gone on to win comfortably. Unfortunately, the players failed and Southgate's game management was called into question. In previous games, we've got away with it even if the substitutions weren't really the right ones. Last night we paid the price by taking the wrong players off at the wrong times and not adapting to the flow of the game. Croatia had the belief that they could beat us and I don't think we carried that same belief, even when we were in front. If Southgate can continue his clearly excellent man-management style, make the players believe in themselves and change that mentality we might be able to go one better in the next couple of tournaments. That said, a lot changes in football and who knows where we will be in 2020 and 2022. The most frustrating thing is that these things can't be put right overnight. The process begins again when, truth be told, we should have made the final last night after taking the lead. Croatia looked better than us but we allowed them so much time and space, they just had to capitalise at some stage. Once they equalised when they did, it was always game over. It's been a great month of football, sun and beers with your mates but, today, I just feel as though that was still a typical England tournament performance. All heart and desire but no real thought of a game plan or tactics once we began to be pressured. It was further than any of us expected but now it's still a case of what if. Southgate has conducted himself admirably and hopefully this experience is a learning curve for him to realise that he needs to be a bit braver at times in terms of personnel and tactics. Great comments gary, I felt we were wide open, defensively, on our left side. There were huge gaps with at least one Croatian stood in them for much of the second half and I thought young was too knackered too care. The substitution was far too late, we looked more secure when Danny rose came on (though he was crap tonight). That, I feel had a major bearing on the result.
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Post by GrahamHyde on Jul 14, 2018 19:29:17 GMT
Managers can improve too
"Ancaro Imparo" I am still learning.
Michelangelo, aged 80.
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Jul 14, 2018 19:35:43 GMT
The Golden Shower Generation were massively overrated as a group and as individuals. That asinine golden generation tag was first used by Adam Crozier in a throwaway comment. The problem is it stuck and became something to beat those players with. I felt, and still do feel, they were good players but not necessarily good enough to really make a mark at the business end of a world cup. The main reason being they were all so thick. If we were going win a trophy it was 2004. Even in 2004, when we had a quality team,and for instance there was a game where we battered France who were the champions. We still conspired to lose..missing a penalty to go 2-0. Thick is the word. Thick as pigshit. It is deeply engrained in our football education not to think about tactics and game management. We've pissed away a golden opportunity this tournament
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Post by tony1234 on Jul 14, 2018 19:55:36 GMT
In a wishlist for England for next 4 years, would like to see us develop (in order):- 1. A good ball playing CM: Henderson and Lingard did well, but Ali was crap and Dier ineffectual. Need a good sound passer. Lots of energy, tactically clever and can score. Candidates (all need developing): Loftus Cheek, Cook, Winks, Tom Davies 2. Third specialist CB: Walker tried nobly but Tunisia, Croatia and other moments showed he will cost us. Ideally has a bit of power and gravitas. Candidates: Clarke-Saltier, Joe Gomez, Ben Gibson 3. A variant of Sterling with better end product: Get Rashford as our specialist wide forward. Start integrating Foden, Redmond, Lookman and Demarai Gray.
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Post by GrahamHyde on Jul 14, 2018 19:57:00 GMT
In a wishlist for England for next 4 years, would like to see us develop (in order):- 1. A good ball playing CM: Henderson and Lingard did well, but Ali was crap and Dier ineffectual. Need a good sound passer. Lots of energy, tactically clever and can score. Candidates (all need developing): Loftus Cheek, Cook, Winks, Tom Davies 2. Third specialist CB: Walker tried nobly but Tunisia, Croatia and other moments showed he will cost us. Ideally has a bit of power and gravitas. Candidates: Clarke-Saltier, Joe Gomez, Ben Gibson 3. A variant of Sterling with better end product: Get Rashford as our specialist wide forward. Start integrating Foden, Redmond, Lookman and Demarai Gray. Foden, Sessegnon, Sancho and Mount all showing promise. We just need a centre half coming through really.
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Post by tony1234 on Jul 14, 2018 20:36:39 GMT
In a wishlist for England for next 4 years, would like to see us develop (in order):- 1. A good ball playing CM: Henderson and Lingard did well, but Ali was crap and Dier ineffectual. Need a good sound passer. Lots of energy, tactically clever and can score. Candidates (all need developing): Loftus Cheek, Cook, Winks, Tom Davies 2. Third specialist CB: Walker tried nobly but Tunisia, Croatia and other moments showed he will cost us. Ideally has a bit of power and gravitas. Candidates: Clarke-Saltier, Joe Gomez, Ben Gibson 3. A variant of Sterling with better end product: Get Rashford as our specialist wide forward. Start integrating Foden, Redmond, Lookman and Demarai Gray. Foden, Sessegnon, Sancho and Mount all showing promise. We just need a centre half coming through really. Yes, I wonder if Sessegnon will end up being a wide left forward. Similar to Bale, starts LB, moves up the pitch. Being capable of hitting double figures in goals each year from LB suggests you are being a bit wasted unless you've got an even more prolific LWF. CB's tend to mature a bit later and play a bit longer. In fact, not a fan of 20 year old CBs in the main... too error prone and not filled out yet. Joe Gomez or Clarke Saltier could both develop into good strong CBs.
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Jul 14, 2018 21:14:51 GMT
In a wishlist for England for next 4 years, would like to see us develop (in order):- 1. A good ball playing CM: Henderson and Lingard did well, but Ali was crap and Dier ineffectual. Need a good sound passer. Lots of energy, tactically clever and can score. Candidates (all need developing): Loftus Cheek, Cook, Winks, Tom Davies 2. Third specialist CB: Walker tried nobly but Tunisia, Croatia and other moments showed he will cost us. Ideally has a bit of power and gravitas. Candidates: Clarke-Saltier, Joe Gomez, Ben Gibson 3. A variant of Sterling with better end product: Get Rashford as our specialist wide forward. Start integrating Foden, Redmond, Lookman and Demarai Gray. Foden, Sessegnon, Sancho and Mount all showing promise. We just need a centre half coming through really. Southgate would have played Gomez instead of walker had he been fit. Winks would have played as well. We missed ox-chamberlain coming off the bench. Like you say, mount, winks, foden, gray, sancho, calvert-lewin, sessegnon, cook, lookman will all be coming in to this team in the next couple of years. If we keep the system, keep the manager, we will have a more balanced team and a stronger squad.
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Jul 14, 2018 21:16:07 GMT
Only Beckham came anywhere near the class of Moderic. The point about Scholes, Gerrard, and Lampard is they were excellent team players for their clubs, where they reached much higher levels of performance than when in an England team. The same applies to Sterling today; he is a brilliant "piece of the team jigsaw" for ManC, but does not produce for England despite all his effort. He has not scored since 2015 must tell people something, but people don't see it. Hopefully the young players like Foden will play to their full potential in the future, but for me the emphasis has to be on teamwork and building a team around world class players not just a collection of individuals who can "all play". I hope Southgate is given long enough to develop true team work, it takes a long time, particularly when the international players play together so infrequently against stiff opposition. Scholes was the best player of that bunch by a country mile. Is there any way i can double like this post Rob? Scholes wasn't just the best of the bunch, but also the most important to the England side as you say, by a country mile!
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Post by JoeinOz on Jul 14, 2018 22:04:54 GMT
Scholes was the best player of that bunch by a country mile. Is there any way i can double like this post Rob? Scholes wasn't just the best of the bunch, but also the most important to the England side as you say, by a country mile! Infuriating he chose to be intimidated by Ferguson requesting him to leave England when he was so young.
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Post by supersimonstainrod on Jul 14, 2018 23:08:44 GMT
Southo seems a thoroughly decent chap. Hopefully he enjoys this adulation before the backlash starts. Reading some of the comments on this mb it's already started,albeit quite benignly?
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Post by JoeinOz on Jul 14, 2018 23:12:26 GMT
Southo seems a thoroughly decent chap. Hopefully he enjoys this adulation before the backlash starts. Reading some of the comments on this mb it's already started,albeit quite benignly? Yes. It does. And tabloid media dictates popular opinion. So a couple of poor results and it's on.
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