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Post by wizzardofdribble on Mar 20, 2018 20:03:00 GMT
One stat will never change. Twatkinson is exactly what it says on the box. A first class twat who hates Stoke. He should be arrested for impersonating a referee. Arrested. Prosecuted. Given a Life Sentence.
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Post by greyman on Mar 20, 2018 20:45:50 GMT
Being an ex football league official, i understand what Clattenburg is saying here. I wouldn't necessarily call it a pre-made 'game plan' i would call it more safe refereeing. I totally get his point but also understand yours looking in. But if you read between the lines he is not saying I'm going out there to make one team win, far from it. I never said that. I've always been wary of Atkinson but the clincher for me was when he only booked Mignolet for cleaning out Diouf. Happened right in front of us. He never even glanced at his linesman and ran over as fast as he could to give a yellow card as quickly as possible to get it all out of the way. The actions of a man who had a lot of ideas already in his head about what decisions he would and wouldn't give. I also suspect there is a lot of unconscious bias. He wouldn't make the same decisions in other games because he knows he'd hear far more about them in the media. If Butland had taken out Salah in the same way and cost Liverpool points, pundits would be talking about it for days. Whereas, screwing over a bottom half club means he might have to read a sentence about it in one or two papers.
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Post by kustokie on Mar 20, 2018 21:02:11 GMT
Just read in Sentinel that Martin Atkinson has shown 20% of all red cards received by Stoke players in the Premier League; yet he has not sent a single opposition player off during all of the Stoke PL matches that he has refereed. If true, that really takes some doing and goes well against the law of averages, especially when you appreciate that he was also stated to be the ref who allowed Mignolet to hack down Diouf earlier this season. I recall him allowing numerous Man City players to take turns in cynically fouling Pennant in the FA Cup Final also. It would be interesting to see the PL stats on every referee in respect of: * Which team they have issued the most PL red cards and bookings set against the total number of games they have refereed for those teams? * The total number of all opposition players they have booked and sent off against their 'favourite' red card team? * If any can get close to Atkinson's 'achievement'? Would also be worth seeing Stoke's full red card and booking history in the PL and who has dished them out... One for those with plenty of time to waste All that may be true but Adam’s foul on Rooney was unquestionably a straight red card. BTW it’s a common misconception but there is no such thing as the law of averages.
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Post by geoff321 on Mar 20, 2018 21:06:34 GMT
The officials are under such close scrutiny theses days with television etc, being corrupt or biased would be highly unlikely. The people who judge a refs performance can't be the fans of a particular team, they are biased, it has to be independant people who are trained to do so. VAR has shown how difficult a job the referee has, we just have to accept there will always be mistakes made. And that's why the big teams don't want VAR or any other non biased machine. You can't influence a machine to give decisions to the bigger teams. I hope I live to see football with NO referee, only a cold dispassionate android who can instantly KNOW if its offside by communicating with all cameras at the ground also allowing the RIGHT decisions on penalties and diving. If they could make it look like a young Kylie Minogue then that would be nice too....I should be so lucky eh^ I think it's virtually impossible to prove there is big club bias, hypothetically say in a court what actual evidence would you be able to produce to prove it. Big clubs have players booked and sent off in the same numbers as the smaller clubs, they have dodgy offside decisions go against them etc, etc. The authorities have tried various things, including VAR, to cut out bad decisions but at the end of the day human beings make mistakes, we will just have to accept that and move on.
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Post by raythesailor on Mar 20, 2018 21:21:26 GMT
Just read in Sentinel that Martin Atkinson has shown 20% of all red cards received by Stoke players in the Premier League; yet he has not sent a single opposition player off during all of the Stoke PL matches that he has refereed. If true, that really takes some doing and goes well against the law of averages, especially when you appreciate that he was also stated to be the ref who allowed Mignolet to hack down Diouf earlier this season. I recall him allowing numerous Man City players to take turns in cynically fouling Pennant in the FA Cup Final also. It would be interesting to see the PL stats on every referee in respect of: * Which team they have issued the most PL red cards and bookings set against the total number of games they have refereed for those teams? * The total number of all opposition players they have booked and sent off against their 'favourite' red card team? * If any can get close to Atkinson's 'achievement'? Would also be worth seeing Stoke's full red card and booking history in the PL and who has dished them out... One for those with plenty of time to waste All that may be true but Adam’s foul on Rooney was unquestionably a straight red card. BTW it’s a common misconception but there is no such thing as the law of averages. Yes Adams tackle was a red card descision is not the point. It was quite correct. The point is that this particulat Referee has no hestitation in giving this decision against us when others may have given the benefit of possible doubt. I give up in despair. No inferiority syndrome but they, inc Arsen, Tottenham, and the World Whinging Cup winning Squad don’t like us so they can stick there self congreatualtrly overpaid crisp eating opinions up their self oppionated up Arseholes. We are better than that and will return. Sorry rant over.
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Post by BuzzB on Mar 20, 2018 21:39:56 GMT
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Post by Marc01 on Mar 20, 2018 22:14:31 GMT
The following site lets you set the parameters. i.e. PL games from 2008/09 (our first season). 'League tables' can be displayed by any of the parameters such as Yellows, Reds, 2 yellows for a red. I think the number 11 in the red circle is the symbol for penalties? Note: Liverpool are at the top on the basis that he has issued more yellows to them He has sent off 2 more Stoke players than Liverpool in 14 less games. Whereas he has sent off 8 of Liverpool's opponents, he has sent none of Stoke's opponents off. Add in the other contentious, goal line, hand ball, off side, by line (cross for Liverpool first goal this season at Boothen End) decisions and make your own mind up. (Not forgetting Tevez offside for Toure's winner in the Cup Final). MA has reffed just one FAC Final. www.transfermarkt.com/martin-atkinson/bilanz/schiedsrichter/381/saison_id/2008/wettbewerb_id/GB1/funktion/1/land_id/0/heim_gast//plus/1Attachment Deleted
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Post by Marc01 on Mar 20, 2018 22:21:44 GMT
Newcastle also appear to receive 5 reds in the same number of games (24); though 4 sending offs for their opponents... 2 of which were Stoke players...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2018 23:59:03 GMT
And that's why the big teams don't want VAR or any other non biased machine. You can't influence a machine to give decisions to the bigger teams. I hope I live to see football with NO referee, only a cold dispassionate android who can instantly KNOW if its offside by communicating with all cameras at the ground also allowing the RIGHT decisions on penalties and diving. If they could make it look like a young Kylie Minogue then that would be nice too....I should be so lucky eh^ I think it's virtually impossible to prove there is big club bias, hypothetically say in a court what actual evidence would you be able to produce to prove it. Big clubs have players booked and sent off in the same numbers as the smaller clubs, they have dodgy offside decisions go against them etc, etc. The authorities have tried various things, including VAR, to cut out bad decisions but at the end of the day human beings make mistakes, we will just have to accept that and move on. Have you ever watched a football match where a big team is playing . They could commit second degree murder and still only get a yellow. The stats prove the bias, the refs have admitted they were intimidated at certain clubs. Get rid of them NO HUMAN = NO HUMAN MISTAKES. we already have the technology to do it.
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Post by 3putts on Mar 21, 2018 1:14:09 GMT
How low we've become. It was a blatant red card. Blame Adam, not Atkinson. nobodys disputing adams red card it was reckless the fact is he is biased against stoke his performance at Newcastle showed that up but the final straw should have been when failed to send mingolet off.
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Post by gonk on Mar 21, 2018 6:27:35 GMT
I feel we should apply to the court of protection to have him sectioned . Due to his inability to make correct decisions. This gives all the time we have been in the Premier. Go to Referees at top of page, then to Favourites then Stoke City and pick season's.Mike Deans been doing a good job as well. www.footcharts.co.uk/index.cfm
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Post by geoff321 on Mar 21, 2018 7:26:39 GMT
I think it's virtually impossible to prove there is big club bias, hypothetically say in a court what actual evidence would you be able to produce to prove it. Big clubs have players booked and sent off in the same numbers as the smaller clubs, they have dodgy offside decisions go against them etc, etc. The authorities have tried various things, including VAR, to cut out bad decisions but at the end of the day human beings make mistakes, we will just have to accept that and move on. Have you ever watched a football match where a big team is playing . They could commit second degree murder and still only get a yellow. The stats prove the bias, the refs have admitted they were intimidated at certain clubs. Get rid of them NO HUMAN = NO HUMAN MISTAKES. we already have the technology to do it. You will have to bring me up to speed on what this technology is that will eliminate humans.
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Post by Fred Ferret on Mar 21, 2018 8:32:38 GMT
The statistics regarding the Atkinson have a stench about them and are worrying. No one associated with this club can have a shred of confidence in this individual.
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Post by geoff321 on Mar 21, 2018 8:42:15 GMT
The statistics regarding the Atkinson have a stench about them and are worrying. No one associated with this club can have a shred of confidence in this individual. But then if we all agree the stats look a problem we have to identify a possible motive, the first question I ask myself is why would any ref have a bias against a particular club?
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Post by elystokie on Mar 21, 2018 9:53:27 GMT
The statistics regarding the Atkinson have a stench about them and are worrying. No one associated with this club can have a shred of confidence in this individual. But then if we all agree the stats look a problem we have to identify a possible motive, the first question I ask myself is why would any ref have a bias against a particular club? Could be any number of reasons Geoff, but you already knew that. Do you genuinely think there is more chance of those stats being completely co-incidental than there is of them appearing for any other reason?
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Post by pez75 on Mar 21, 2018 10:08:45 GMT
I think it's virtually impossible to prove there is big club bias, hypothetically say in a court what actual evidence would you be able to produce to prove it. Big clubs have players booked and sent off in the same numbers as the smaller clubs, they have dodgy offside decisions go against them etc, etc. The authorities have tried various things, including VAR, to cut out bad decisions but at the end of the day human beings make mistakes, we will just have to accept that and move on. Have you ever watched a football match where a big team is playing . They could commit second degree murder and still only get a yellow. The stats prove the bias, the refs have admitted they were intimidated at certain clubs. Get rid of them NO HUMAN = NO HUMAN MISTAKES. we already have the technology to do it. Its indisputable. This is why managers of top clubs are prepared to risk fines and even bans to highlight refereeing errors - they get the airtime and the backpage coverage and it piles more pressure on refs to not make errors against their side again.
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Post by geoff321 on Mar 21, 2018 11:05:24 GMT
But then if we all agree the stats look a problem we have to identify a possible motive, the first question I ask myself is why would any ref have a bias against a particular club? Could be any number of reasons Geoff, but you already knew that. Do you genuinely think there is more chance of those stats being completely co-incidental than there is of them appearing for any other reason? I think the stats are a concern yes, others think it's proof Atkinson has an agenda against Stoke, in my opinion it's up to those people who claim that to spell out why he might be targeting our club and players in particular. I think a referee goes into a match, like the players, wanting to have a good game and so I'm confused as to why in any game he would do anything that would undermine his own performance. Perhaps some are suggesting that in the case of Stoke he is applying the letter of the law, whereas with other teams he is more lenient, but even if that was true it still begs the question why.
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Mar 21, 2018 11:11:22 GMT
The statistics regarding the Atkinson have a stench about them and are worrying. No one associated with this club can have a shred of confidence in this individual. But then if we all agree the stats look a problem we have to identify a possible motive, the first question I ask myself is why would any ref have a bias against a particular club? Rumour has it he was engaged to Pottermiss but she jilted him at the altar. Allegedly
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Post by greyman on Mar 21, 2018 11:18:05 GMT
Could be any number of reasons Geoff, but you already knew that. Do you genuinely think there is more chance of those stats being completely co-incidental than there is of them appearing for any other reason? I think the stats are a concern yes, others think it's proof Atkinson has an agenda against Stoke, in my opinion it's up to those people who claim that to spell out why he might be targeting our club and players in particular. I think a referee goes into a match, like the players, wanting to have a good game and so I'm confused as to why in any game he would do anything that would undermine his own performance. Perhaps some are suggesting that in the case of Stoke he is applying the letter of the law, whereas with other teams he is more lenient, but even if that was true it still begs the question why. As I've already said, Mark Clattenburg gave the game away with his comments. Refs go into games with a plan about how they will make decisions based on their perceptions of a club and a match. I don't think this means Atkinson has an agenda per se, but that is the only reasonable explanation for his demonstrable bias. Personally, I think the club should announce they don't want him to referee any more Stoke games for the foreseeable future. The Premier League won't agree to that, and we'll no doubt get fined, but we need to highlight the fact that we are never reffed fairly by this man. All refs make mistakes but this is about far more than that. We need to put the spotlight on him.
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Post by elystokie on Mar 21, 2018 11:21:30 GMT
Could be any number of reasons Geoff, but you already knew that. Do you genuinely think there is more chance of those stats being completely co-incidental than there is of them appearing for any other reason? I think the stats are a concern yes, others think it's proof Atkinson has an agenda against Stoke, in my opinion it's up to those people who claim that to spell out why he might be targeting our club and players in particular. I think a referee goes into a match, like the players, wanting to have a good game and so I'm confused as to why in any game he would do anything that would undermine his own performance. Perhaps some are suggesting that in the case of Stoke he is applying the letter of the law, whereas with other teams he is more lenient, but even if that was true it still begs the question why. Why, given that the stats point extremely strongly (as you have just asserted) to a bias being applied, are you putting the onus on those who believe the statistics to come up with the reason for the bias? Again, I ask you, is it a co-incidence?
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Mar 21, 2018 11:23:35 GMT
__________Games____Reds____Penalties For___Reds per game___Pens per game Top Six __180______17______25______________9%______________14% Rest __295______28______34______________9%______________12% Stoke __24_______6_______4_______________25%_____________17%
Love these stats so I took a closer look.
It shows he is NOT biased towards The Top Six clubs actually.
He just doesnt like Stoke.
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Post by thegift on Mar 21, 2018 11:27:07 GMT
__Games____Reds____Penalties For___Reds per game___Pens per game Top Six __180______17______25______________9%______________14% Rest __295______28______34______________9%______________12% Stoke __24_______6_______4_______________25%_____________17% I only understood this when i went to quote you, lol. This is actually mouth wateringly biased.
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Post by geoff321 on Mar 21, 2018 11:52:43 GMT
I think the stats are a concern yes, others think it's proof Atkinson has an agenda against Stoke, in my opinion it's up to those people who claim that to spell out why he might be targeting our club and players in particular. I think a referee goes into a match, like the players, wanting to have a good game and so I'm confused as to why in any game he would do anything that would undermine his own performance. Perhaps some are suggesting that in the case of Stoke he is applying the letter of the law, whereas with other teams he is more lenient, but even if that was true it still begs the question why. As I've already said, Mark Clattenburg gave the game away with his comments. Refs go into games with a plan about how they will make decisions based on their perceptions of a club and a match. I don't think this means Atkinson has an agenda per se, but that is the only reasonable explanation for his demonstrable bias. Personally, I think the club should announce they don't want him to referee any more Stoke games for the foreseeable future. The Premier League won't agree to that, and we'll no doubt get fined, but we need to highlight the fact that we are never reffed fairly by this man. All refs make mistakes but this is about far more than that. We need to put the spotlight on him. Yes I think your first paragraph is a sensible explanation of what can influence a ref before any match and lead him to take stronger action during a game, in which case he is biased but not in a corrupt way. In a sense then he sees incidents in Stoke games and with our players, which confirm in his mind what he believed pre match, and clamps down on them accordingly. Hope I'm not misunderstanding what you are saying.
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Post by vahl on Mar 21, 2018 11:56:36 GMT
Looking at the stats, Oliver isn't far off him with us either. Atkinson doesn't seem to like refereeing the Scouse clubs or Arsenal from what I can see as well, plenty against. Sunderland get screwed by him!
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Post by geoff321 on Mar 21, 2018 12:02:09 GMT
I think the stats are a concern yes, others think it's proof Atkinson has an agenda against Stoke, in my opinion it's up to those people who claim that to spell out why he might be targeting our club and players in particular. I think a referee goes into a match, like the players, wanting to have a good game and so I'm confused as to why in any game he would do anything that would undermine his own performance. Perhaps some are suggesting that in the case of Stoke he is applying the letter of the law, whereas with other teams he is more lenient, but even if that was true it still begs the question why. Why, given that the stats point extremely strongly (as you have just asserted) to a bias being applied, are you putting the onus on those who believe the statistics to come up with the reason for the bias? Again, I ask you, is it a co-incidence? I've just read more closely what greyman said and I think his explanation may get close to the real issue with Atkinson, so bias yes but based on his pre conceived views about Stoke/players, which in turn influence his decisions in certain games.
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Post by elystokie on Mar 21, 2018 12:06:47 GMT
Why, given that the stats point extremely strongly (as you have just asserted) to a bias being applied, are you putting the onus on those who believe the statistics to come up with the reason for the bias? Again, I ask you, is it a co-incidence? I've just read more closely what greyman said and I think his explanation may get close to the real issue with Atkinson, so bias yes but based on his pre conceived views about Stoke/players, which in turn influence his decisions in certain games. Fair enough. Either way, he's not fit to referee. In any sense of the word.
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Post by OldStokie on Mar 21, 2018 12:42:43 GMT
100% corruption in our game for sure. No there isn't, bias maybe, ineptitude possibly but corruption no way Are you serious? Show me any sport or business where billions of £'s are at stake and 100% there will be corruption at some level. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive. (Or maybe you were joking?) In my book, given that referees are supposed to be neutral, bias is a form of corruption. But I would go much further than that. I've seen games/incidents that stink of real corruption. The Gills away game is one such game. There have been many more. OS.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 21, 2018 13:18:10 GMT
There's an academic at Bath University who has studied refereeing bias and has conclusively proved that it exists in favour of home teams, big clubs and star players.
In other words, if you are Gary Neville you can hack down Matty Etherington on a yellow card and not get a second one, despite being away from home because you are a highly decorated ex-England star playing for Man Utd.
Conversely, if you are Dean Whitehead and Luka Modric runs into you, you will receive a second yellow and get sent off, despite being at home.
I wish I could remember the bloke's name but it makes for very interesting reading. He basically gets refs to video ref games from other countries without knowing the teams, players, home or away sides and no crowd noise. The results are quite alarming.
This is another reason why VAR should be used, although I accept that there is still an element of subjectivity. One aspect of VAR which really needs tidying up is the transparency of the VAR decision - it's just not good enough for a ref to put his finger to his ear, say hold on a second and then wave play on and all us fans are left in the dark about what has been looked at.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2018 17:20:19 GMT
Have you ever watched a football match where a big team is playing . They could commit second degree murder and still only get a yellow. The stats prove the bias, the refs have admitted they were intimidated at certain clubs. Get rid of them NO HUMAN = NO HUMAN MISTAKES. we already have the technology to do it. You will have to bring me up to speed on what this technology is that will eliminate humans. I have one here. It is about 5' tall has green eyes doesn't ever breed. Loveless android just scans soap operas all day. Never misses a thing. It's called a W.O.M.A.N
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2018 17:27:53 GMT
There's one simple rule that could be brought in, and it's going back to a referee referring to someone simply as "player" or "No 21." Watching refs put their arms around players like Rooney and hearing them come out with "Wayne this" and "Wayne that" is just plain wrong and you can't tell me it doesn't lead to a sub-conscious bias.
The players should respect the referee as the decision maker on the field and the referee should make it 100% clear that he treats everyone of those players on the pitch the same irrespective of their levels of fame.........
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