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Post by roylandstoke on Mar 3, 2018 17:28:55 GMT
What?
Why does the league awards points?
What an embarrassingly ludicrous reply, unless you're being pathetically pedantic. "Worth", as a concept, is flexible and abstract; not concrete. Not all points are of equal value, as it depends entirely on how it will affect your standing in relation to other teams. "Relative to our needs and requirements in dragging ourselves out of the mire, looking at the teams and their positions around us, as well as our upcoming fixtures and the opportunity to deny a relegation rival their point; our point from today is pretty much worthless". Teams have won leagues by a single point. Teams have stayed up by a single point. Every point has worth. "Points are worthless" as a declaration is substantially more ridiculous than march4's famous: "Goals are irrelevant".
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Post by stayingupforbigbazza on Mar 3, 2018 17:29:43 GMT
Where there's life there's hope. We're better than we were under Hughes and that's something. Its the hope that kills but onwards and upwards
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2018 17:30:05 GMT
We've been peddling the "good point" horseshit for too long. We've needed to win for fucking ages and it just is not happening.
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Post by modfather on Mar 3, 2018 17:30:57 GMT
We'll beat city 🙊
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 3, 2018 17:34:54 GMT
The result is ok. The performance was beyond dreary and points to a team and manager that does not possess the wherewithal to survive.
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Post by stoke111 on Mar 3, 2018 17:37:31 GMT
We were poor but Southampton would have been more upset with that point than us. If they had won like they deserved we would be 3 points from safety not the 1 point we are right now. At least we’re still hanging in there and not miles adrift just got to try to stay in the mix and win the winnable games.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Mar 3, 2018 17:41:49 GMT
What an embarrassingly ludicrous reply, unless you're being pathetically pedantic. "Worth", as a concept, is flexible and abstract; not concrete. Not all points are of equal value, as it depends entirely on how it will affect your standing in relation to other teams. "Relative to our needs and requirements in dragging ourselves out of the mire, looking at the teams and their positions around us, as well as our upcoming fixtures and the opportunity to deny a relegation rival their point; our point from today is pretty much worthless". Teams have won leagues by a single point. Teams have stayed up by a single point. Every point has worth. "Points are worthless" as a declaration is substantially more ridiculous than march4's famous: "Goals are irrelevant". I didn't say "points are worthless", that is a lie. I said a point is worthless, which it is to us today. We will need a bare minimum of 12 to stay up. It would be 11, but with that GD of ours it will have to be 12. With the fixtures we have left, we now have zero room for error in attaining those twelve points. Barring a tremendous miracle, I think we can agree that City, Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool are going to be write-offs. That leaves us with Everton, Burnley and Palace at home and West Ham and Swansea away. We will have to win four of those. This just isn't going to happen. Three points would have given us the tiniest shred of room to play with as it would have allowed us to win three and draw one, plus it would have brought Soton down too. I am not saying that a draw is ever worthless, as I'm not some sort of moron. However, if anyone thinks that a point was a good result from today, well, you're either childishly naive or you believe in magic.
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Post by stokemark on Mar 3, 2018 17:43:14 GMT
'Week in week out Stoke fans optimism gently rises as days pass until we all actually believe that we can do this. ‘We can win this, we’re not a bad team’. And every Saturday evening we all have to stare straight down the barrel of relegation inevitability'
Quote from Twitter
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Post by StatesideStokie on Mar 3, 2018 17:44:13 GMT
I haven’t forgotten at all. I wish I had though. Like I said, we didn’t have a single, decent attempt on goal in the entire game. Ndiaye's header in the first half which brought about a full length, finger-tip save? I”ll let you have that one. 👍
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Post by StokieNath on Mar 3, 2018 17:46:28 GMT
People suggesting that it was a good point were probably Hughes in fans too. Obviously they don't actually pay and watch the games in the flesh. We are wank.
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Post by goatbulgaria on Mar 3, 2018 17:48:06 GMT
Where there's life there's hope. We're better than we were under Hughes and that's something. No we're not.
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Post by TrentValePotter96 on Mar 3, 2018 17:48:44 GMT
We need to win these games. We can't just *expect* to beat Everton, Burnley, Palace, Swansea as about a month ago we thought we'd beat Watford, Brighton, Southampton, etc.
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Post by stokefanone on Mar 3, 2018 17:52:51 GMT
We are also a shambolic side.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 3, 2018 17:53:42 GMT
The result is ok. The performance was beyond dreary and points to a team and manager that does not possess the wherewithal to survive. I think we show slightly more wherewithal than under Hughes where we were sleep walking to certain doom. We would have lost last week and this under Hughes. I don't think it's over yet.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 3, 2018 17:57:31 GMT
The result is ok. The performance was beyond dreary and points to a team and manager that does not possess the wherewithal to survive. I think we show slightly more wherewithal than under Hughes where we were sleep walking to certain doom. We would have lost last week and this under Hughes. I don't think it's over yet. We’re better than we were under Hughes and would undoubtedly have lost some of the games under him we’ve subsequently drawn. That’s an incredibly low baseline to judge against though and Lambert thus far doesn’t look like he hasn’t got the bollocks to get the necessary scores on the doors. We are not going to draw our way to survival. It’s too late for that. We simply aren’t doing enough to win games. To barely lay a glove on a team as poor as that today spells it out in pretty stark terms.
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Post by roylandstoke on Mar 3, 2018 18:04:04 GMT
People suggesting that it was a good point were probably Hughes in fans too. Obviously they don't actually pay and watch the games in the flesh. We are wank. No such thing as bad points regardless of the manager: sometimes there just aren't enough of them. Please don't presume to know the details of my financial and time commitments to my football club.
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Post by roylandstoke on Mar 3, 2018 18:10:12 GMT
Teams have won leagues by a single point. Teams have stayed up by a single point. Every point has worth. "Points are worthless" as a declaration is substantially more ridiculous than march4's famous: "Goals are irrelevant". I didn't say "points are worthless", that is a lie. I said a point is worthless, which it is to us today. We will need a bare minimum of 12 to stay up. It would be 11, but with that GD of ours it will have to be 12. With the fixtures we have left, we now have zero room for error in attaining those twelve points. Barring a tremendous miracle, I think we can agree that City, Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool are going to be write-offs. That leaves us with Everton, Burnley and Palace at home and West Ham and Swansea away. We will have to win four of those. This just isn't going to happen. Three points would have given us the tiniest shred of room to play with as it would have allowed us to win three and draw one, plus it would have brought Soton down too. I am not saying that a draw is ever worthless, as I'm not some sort of moron. However, if anyone thinks that a point was a good result from today, well, you're either childishly naive or you believe in magic. Today's point is worth exactly the same as the point we got against Man Utd. Believing that a point in one game is better than a point from a different game is ridiculous.
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Post by mrcoke on Mar 3, 2018 18:11:50 GMT
The priority today was not to lose; we did it. Going 4 points behind Southampton would have been dire. If PL can keep scraping an average point per match, we might just avoid the drop. But that means we have to find a couple of wins to make up for inevitable defeats, and we could still lose out on goal difference. We actually had 12 shots today to Southampton's 18, despite only 34% possession, and missed at least 1 sitter. We didn't deserve a point today, maybe our luck is turning, and we kept another clean sheet. After that performance I am delighted with the point. PL has a chance to experiment against ManC and Arsenal, and find a system to score more. We are in a for a lean patch, but then so are Palace and Southampton. We also need West Ham, Huddersfield, and Newcastle to keep failing to win, and ironically we could do with West Brom doing us a few favours by beating Palace and Newcastle. Brighton may now be sitting pretty in 12th place with 31 points, but they have only 2 matches left against teams below them; so they are far from safe. But for all that, we are not yet dependent on other teams throwing their chances away, we have enough chances to get enough points still. Only Bournemouth and Swansea look comfortably placed with 4 games left against teams below them. I don't understand the substitutions either but the manager and his assistants see the players almost every day. We are deeply in the mire and slowly sinking. People should not blame PL though, he didn't put us in this mess and the way we were playing in December and against Newcastle and Coventry, without the improvements PL has made, we would be cut a drift with West Brom now. If we want Stoke to stay up, we need to get behind PL and the team and give them all the vocal support we can muster. Finally, well done to all those who went to the match today. You are true fans and deserve better.
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Post by stokerstayinup on Mar 3, 2018 18:13:39 GMT
People suggesting that it was a good point were probably Hughes in fans too. Obviously they don't actually pay and watch the games in the flesh. We are wank. I thought it was a gd point and have had a season ticket since the late eighties and was at Leicester last week.Keep guessing though.
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Post by wuzza on Mar 3, 2018 18:18:28 GMT
It’s a point that keeps us in with a shout. I think people are over estimating the number of points our competitors will gather. HOWEVER .....nothing about our performance levels suggest we have the wherewithal to produce 3 or 4 more wins.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Mar 3, 2018 18:25:29 GMT
Today's point is worth exactly the same as the point we got against Man Utd. Believing that a point in one game is better than a point from a different game is ridiculous. [/quote] That's bollocks and shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how a table works, how opposition works, how home and away games work and how different points of the season are a relevant factor. It's a very simplistic outlook. Some games are more important than others. For a team with a specific objective in mind (winning the league, finishing top four, avoiding relegation etc) it's more important to beat the teams around you competing for the same target, as you are denying them the points they could otherwise acquire. Hence the expression, six-pointers. That's not saying that you don't need to go balls out to win your other games too, but some games are must-wins. Today was a must-win to make up ground on Southampton, who now sit exactly where we need to be. A draw was a bad result for us, a team who need to be winning, who can no longer draw our way to safety, who were playing one of their very few remaining "winnable" games. If it was the last day of the season and we needed to beat Swansea to stay up and we three away a lead to draw, that would be a crap result; and a crap, irrelevant, worthless point, since we'd be going down with or without the point. Similarly, if it comes down to the last game of the season and it was between us and Other Town FC for the drop but we weren't playing each other, and they won but we drew, that would be a crap and worthless point if it meant we were for the drop. That's explaining it in very simple terms. Just because today is not the last day of the season does not mean that the logic does not apply today.
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Post by roylandstoke on Mar 3, 2018 18:46:01 GMT
Today's point is worth exactly the same as the point we got against Man Utd. Believing that a point in one game is better than a point from a different game is ridiculous. It's a very simplistic outlook. Some games are more important than others. For a team with a specific objective in mind (winning the league, finishing top four, avoiding relegation etc) it's more important to beat the teams around you competing for the same target, as you are denying them the points they could otherwise acquire. Hence the expression, six-pointers. That's not saying that you don't need to go balls out to win your other games too, but some games are must-wins. Today was a must-win to make up ground on Southampton, who now sit exactly where we need to be. A draw was a bad result for us, a team who need to be winning, who can no longer draw our way to safety, who were playing one of their very few remaining "winnable" games. If it was the last day of the season and we needed to beat Swansea to stay up and we three away a lead to draw, that would be a crap result; and a crap, irrelevant, worthless point, since we'd be going down with or without the point. That's bollocks and shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how a table works, how opposition works, how home and away games work and how different points of the season are a relevant factor. Similarly, if it comes down to the last game of the season and it was between us and Other Town FC for the drop but we weren't playing each other, and they won but we drew, that would be a crap and worthless point if it meant we were for the drop. That's explaining it in very simple terms. Just because today is not the last day of the season does not mean that the logic does not apply today. [/quote] Seems very complicated to me. Are you saying that the team with the most points may not win the league if they somehow picked up their points in the wrong games? The point the team gets in your hypothetical last game of the season against Other Town FC would not be worthless if they had picked up points in earlier games. Every one of the points we get has worth. If we somehow get to 38 points I believe we will stay up; 37 points will see us relegated in my opinion. Today's point may just be the point that keeps us up. It may also be the point that keeps Southampton up.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Mar 3, 2018 18:55:55 GMT
Today's point is worth exactly the same as the point we got against Man Utd. Believing that a point in one game is better than a point from a different game is ridiculous. It's a very simplistic outlook. Some games are more important than others. For a team with a specific objective in mind (winning the league, finishing top four, avoiding relegation etc) it's more important to beat the teams around you competing for the same target, as you are denying them the points they could otherwise acquire. Hence the expression, six-pointers. That's not saying that you don't need to go balls out to win your other games too, but some games are must-wins. Today was a must-win to make up ground on Southampton, who now sit exactly where we need to be. A draw was a bad result for us, a team who need to be winning, who can no longer draw our way to safety, who were playing one of their very few remaining "winnable" games. If it was the last day of the season and we needed to beat Swansea to stay up and we three away a lead to draw, that would be a crap result; and a crap, irrelevant, worthless point, since we'd be going down with or without the point. That's bollocks and shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how a table works, how opposition works, how home and away games work and how different points of the season are a relevant factor. Similarly, if it comes down to the last game of the season and it was between us and Other Town FC for the drop but we weren't playing each other, and they won but we drew, that would be a crap and worthless point if it meant we were for the drop. That's explaining it in very simple terms. Just because today is not the last day of the season does not mean that the logic does not apply today. Seems very complicated to me. Are you saying that the team with the most points may not win the league if they somehow picked up their points in the wrong games? The point the team gets in your hypothetical last game of the season against Other Town FC would not be worthless if they had picked up points in earlier games. Every one of the points we get has worth. If we somehow get to 38 points I believe we will stay up; 37 points will see us relegated in my opinion. Today's point may just be the point that keeps us up. It may also be the point that keeps Southampton up. [/quote] It seems complicated because it is complicated. It's not as easy as just "win as many as possible", because you won't win them all, so you need to keep an eye on how everyone around you is doing. In some games, it is just as important to deny teams points as it is to gain them yourself, such as today. A win would have seen us swap places with Southampton. A draw has not changed anything, just maintained the status quo. Maintaining the status quo will see us relegated. Particularly since this was one of the drastically diminishing pool of winnable games left, it was a crap result. Therefore it was a crap point. That's the last I'm saying on it because I'm just repeating myself, if you don't get it you don't get it.
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Post by PotterLog on Mar 3, 2018 18:58:11 GMT
We were utterly abysmal and very lucky to come away with a point.
You've probably just seen the two sides that are going down with West Brom.
Really we don't deserve to stay up do we? We're just rubbish.
Today was the first time I've really accepted we deserve to go down. After the penalty debacle at Watford I was utterly gutted, but now I'm just resigned to it. Maybe it's the best thing for us.
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Post by PotterLog on Mar 3, 2018 19:01:24 GMT
Teams have won leagues by a single point. Teams have stayed up by a single point. Every point has worth. "Points are worthless" as a declaration is substantially more ridiculous than march4's famous: "Goals are irrelevant". I didn't say "points are worthless", that is a lie. I said a point is worthless, which it is to us today. We will need a bare minimum of 12 to stay up. It would be 11, but with that GD of ours it will have to be 12. With the fixtures we have left, we now have zero room for error in attaining those twelve points. Barring a tremendous miracle, I think we can agree that City, Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool are going to be write-offs. That leaves us with Everton, Burnley and Palace at home and West Ham and Swansea away. We will have to win four of those. This just isn't going to happen. Three points would have given us the tiniest shred of room to play with as it would have allowed us to win three and draw one, plus it would have brought Soton down too. I am not saying that a draw is ever worthless, as I'm not some sort of moron. However, if anyone thinks that a point was a good result from today, well, you're either childishly naive or you believe in magic. We won't need 12 to stay up. I think 10 will do it, possibly even nine. We still won't get that though.
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devsad
Academy Starlet
Posts: 213
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Post by devsad on Mar 3, 2018 19:44:43 GMT
When I did one of those relegation calculators we ended outside the bottom three and I put this down as a draw so I agree it was a good point. but we have to win our home games against Everton and Palace.
I also think it was encouraging to keep a clean sheet especially when they had so many corners and good crosses into the box. That must give the team more confidence going forward. Under Hughes I expected the opposition to score anytime a cross went into the box. By the end of today we had dealt with them so well I was relatively relaxed.
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Post by kidcrewbob on Mar 3, 2018 19:51:48 GMT
Ordinarily, the point both today and last week would have been acceptable - even creditable - BUT in the context of so many defeats at home against those we should have been beating with relative ease plus the thrashings elsewhere it's too little too late.
It Is so gut wrenching to try and accept that barring a miracle,we have had our days in the sun and those amazing players to whose skills we have never really taken full advantage of nor reached their potential - and actually become almost blasé to - will no longer grace the Brit.
So, Back to the maelstrom of the Championship where reputations count for nothing and free fall is a distinct possibility when boards, owners and some supporters give up the ghost - and worst of all is that it was all avoidable.
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Post by roylandstoke on Mar 3, 2018 20:49:49 GMT
It's a very simplistic outlook. Some games are more important than others. For a team with a specific objective in mind (winning the league, finishing top four, avoiding relegation etc) it's more important to beat the teams around you competing for the same target, as you are denying them the points they could otherwise acquire. Hence the expression, six-pointers. That's not saying that you don't need to go balls out to win your other games too, but some games are must-wins. Today was a must-win to make up ground on Southampton, who now sit exactly where we need to be. A draw was a bad result for us, a team who need to be winning, who can no longer draw our way to safety, who were playing one of their very few remaining "winnable" games. If it was the last day of the season and we needed to beat Swansea to stay up and we three away a lead to draw, that would be a crap result; and a crap, irrelevant, worthless point, since we'd be going down with or without the point. That's bollocks and shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how a table works, how opposition works, how home and away games work and how different points of the season are a relevant factor. Similarly, if it comes down to the last game of the season and it was between us and Other Town FC for the drop but we weren't playing each other, and they won but we drew, that would be a crap and worthless point if it meant we were for the drop. That's explaining it in very simple terms. Just because today is not the last day of the season does not mean that the logic does not apply today. Seems very complicated to me. Are you saying that the team with the most points may not win the league if they somehow picked up their points in the wrong games? The point the team gets in your hypothetical last game of the season against Other Town FC would not be worthless if they had picked up points in earlier games. Every one of the points we get has worth. If we somehow get to 38 points I believe we will stay up; 37 points will see us relegated in my opinion. Today's point may just be the point that keeps us up. It may also be the point that keeps Southampton up.
It seems complicated because it is complicated. It's not as easy as just "win as many as possible", because you won't win them all, so you need to keep an eye on how everyone around you is doing.
In some games, it is just as important to deny teams points as it is to gain them yourself, such as today. A win would have seen us swap places with Southampton. A draw has not changed anything, just maintained the status quo. Maintaining the status quo will see us relegated. Particularly since this was one of the drastically diminishing pool of winnable games left, it was a crap result. Therefore it was a crap point.
That's the last I'm saying on it because I'm just repeating myself, if you don't get it you don't get it.
[/quote][/p]
Surely that is the whole point of sport: it is that easy. The teams that win the most, are the most successful. If a team wins more than it loses it generally stays up, regardless of which teams it beats or loses to.
If it forms part of a total that keeps us up it was a fantastic point, just like every other point in that total.
If we go down then every point will have been pretty worthless,
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Post by SneydGreenStokie on Mar 3, 2018 20:53:23 GMT
We may as well have lost as drawn, a point is pretty much worthless. Maybe we should have just punted one in our own net then? What a ridiculous comment you have made SGS
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Post by sufolkstokie on Mar 3, 2018 20:53:53 GMT
Where there's life there's hope. We're better than we were under Hughes and that's something. In terms of defense - 100% In terms of attack, I cant believe it but we are actually worse Hoofball is back - Lambert learnt a lot in Germany watching football, like running through some mini cones before each half Shocking football on show
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