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Post by medwaypotter on Feb 1, 2018 15:05:59 GMT
Not defending the fella, but isn't this just using a part of what he said as an excuse to slate him ? He also said the same of Italian and Russian players, which takes the race element away, but it isn't mentioned.
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Post by FullerMagic on Feb 1, 2018 15:08:08 GMT
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Post by jaybee on Feb 1, 2018 15:08:19 GMT
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Post by thegift on Feb 1, 2018 15:11:50 GMT
Just seems when you are of a black ethnic background everything people say in 10x worse  |
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Feb 1, 2018 15:14:48 GMT
Or, it's a measure which has unfortunately had to be introduced to try to counteract the undoubted institutional racism in the appointment processes to top coaching jobs in english football, which is inarguable in my view given the stats on the number of black coaches compared with top black players, their success rate in getting jobs and the anecdotal experience of many of them. It is deeply ironic if the Rooney rule is criticised on the grounds that it's racist. I should perhaps add that I don't think the Rooney rule should be the only or even the main measure to counteract this. It's a bit of a side-show in my view. You cannot fight discrimination with discrimination. End of! As a matter of interest what alternative measures would you advocate be taken to eliminate discrimination in coaching and other senior football appointments ? Why do you think that it has taken the introduction of the Rooney rule by the FA to open up a proper recognition of and debate about the discrimination in these appointments which has been going on for years ? If you cannot fight discrimination with discrimination, you certainly cannot fight it by doing nothing or refusing to accept that it even exists which has largely been the position of those in charge of the game until now. |
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Post by mickstupp on Feb 1, 2018 15:16:04 GMT
He certainly looks the right kind of age (late 50’s early 60’s) ? |
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Post by Birchesheadpotter on Feb 1, 2018 15:21:39 GMT
It is a policy that formally renders classification of candidates for a job based solely on ethnicity. It’s inarguably racist. Or, it's a measure which has unfortunately had to be introduced to try to counteract the undoubted institutional racism in the appointment processes to top coaching jobs in english football, which is inarguable in my view given the stats on the number of black coaches compared with top black players, their success rate in getting jobs and the anecdotal experience of many of them. It is deeply ironic if the Rooney rule is criticised on the grounds that it's racist. I should perhaps add that I don't think the Rooney rule should be the only or even the main measure to counteract this. It's a bit of a side-show in my view. I’d actually be interested in seeing statistics that show ‘minority’ applicants success rates when challenging for jobs relative to their ability, qualifications and experience. Please don’t think I’m being facetious on the grounds of provocation, I’m not; I have yet to be convinced, statistically, of this widespread, “institutionalised racism” in arguably one of the most liberal and multicultural societies ever to have existed on earth though. Be it ironic or not, ANY legislation, regulation, rule or rhetoric advocating the classification of race as an ‘attribute’ to be considered when discussing the viability of applicants for a skill based role is racial discrimination. It is disgusting. |
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Post by kristoff on Feb 1, 2018 16:35:33 GMT
You cannot fight discrimination with discrimination. End of! As a matter of interest what alternative measures would you advocate be taken to eliminate discrimination in coaching and other senior football appointments ? Why do you think that it has taken the introduction of the Rooney rule by the FA to open up a proper recognition of and debate about the discrimination in these appointments which has been going on for years ? If you cannot fight discrimination with discrimination, you certainly cannot fight it by doing nothing or refusing to accept that it even exists which has largely been the position of those in charge of the game until now. I am not paid to come up with that type of solution, however I can’t sit and watch discrimination against anyone with the excuse that we’ll they did it to us first. That’s schoolground stuff. Perhaps first let’s look at why it’s happening. Are enough Ethnic (and female for that matter) people apply for their badges? Are enough getting their badges? When they get a job are they successful enough? How many are applying for these jobs and if they do apply who are they losing out to? Yes these questions should have been asked long ago, and it’s disgusting how long it’s taken football to catch up with other sports when tackling racism, but once again all you cannot discriminate. If you do all your going to achieve is pissing people off who feel they being victimised themselves due to the colour of their skin. The whole thing is a nightmare, but I think it’s time for torches, pitchforks to be put down and have a reall open and serious conversation (for all walks of life). Because by trying to knock down segregating barriers, all half these rules do are put more up sadly. |
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Feb 1, 2018 18:08:27 GMT
Or, it's a measure which has unfortunately had to be introduced to try to counteract the undoubted institutional racism in the appointment processes to top coaching jobs in english football, which is inarguable in my view given the stats on the number of black coaches compared with top black players, their success rate in getting jobs and the anecdotal experience of many of them. It is deeply ironic if the Rooney rule is criticised on the grounds that it's racist. I should perhaps add that I don't think the Rooney rule should be the only or even the main measure to counteract this. It's a bit of a side-show in my view. I’d actually be interested in seeing statistics that show ‘minority’ applicants success rates when challenging for jobs relative to their ability, qualifications and experience. Please don’t think I’m being facetious on the grounds of provocation, I’m not; I have yet to be convinced, statistically, of this widespread, “institutionalised racism” in arguably one of the most liberal and multicultural societies ever to have existed on earth though. Be it ironic or not, ANY legislation, regulation, rule or rhetoric advocating the classification of race as an ‘attribute’ to be considered when discussing the viability of applicants for a skill based role is racial discrimination. It is disgusting. When I have time I will dig out some of the evidence. The PFA among others have done a lot of work on this. But I'm sure you must have wondered about the wide discrepancy between the number of top players who are black and the number of managers and coaches. Personally, I think you take a rather rose tinted view of our society. Although in many areas things have undoubtedly improved, there is still widespread employment and other discrimination in our society (as in a different context the BBC are currently demonstrating) and, unfortunately, in this, as in some other areas, I think the football industry is behind many other sections of society. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2018 18:10:54 GMT
So you've got no problems with sweeping, negative generalisations about a whole continent of people? Funny how often the stuff people describe as 'PC Gone Mad' on here in reality equates to basic decency and not being a dick. I don't see it as a big issue, being honest it does not affect me therefore doesn't bother me. People need to to worry about themselves not focus on everyone else. Fucking hell, small minded or what? |
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Feb 1, 2018 18:33:03 GMT
As a matter of interest what alternative measures would you advocate be taken to eliminate discrimination in coaching and other senior football appointments ? Why do you think that it has taken the introduction of the Rooney rule by the FA to open up a proper recognition of and debate about the discrimination in these appointments which has been going on for years ? If you cannot fight discrimination with discrimination, you certainly cannot fight it by doing nothing or refusing to accept that it even exists which has largely been the position of those in charge of the game until now. I am not paid to come up with that type of solution, however I can’t sit and watch discrimination against anyone with the excuse that we’ll they did it to us first. That’s schoolground stuff. Perhaps first let’s look at why it’s happening. Are enough Ethnic (and female for that matter) people apply for their badges? Are enough getting their badges? When they get a job are they successful enough? How many are applying for these jobs and if they do apply who are they losing out to? Yes these questions should have been asked long ago, and it’s disgusting how long it’s taken football to catch up with other sports when tackling racism, but once again all you cannot discriminate. If you do all your going to achieve is pissing people off who feel they being victimised themselves due to the colour of their skin. The whole thing is a nightmare, but I think it’s time for torches, pitchforks to be put down and have a reall open and serious conversation (for all walks of life). Because by trying to knock down segregating barriers, all half these rules do are put more up sadly. You don't have to be paid to express a view on some alternative ideas if you are strongly opposed to the Rooney rule do you ? There is an open and serious conversation going on about these matters. They were the major item on the agenda of the last FA Council in which I spoke, and the Rooney rule was only a relatively small part of that. But to characeture the thinking behind that specific proposal to achieve positive change, which has proved successful in American sport, as "they did it to us first" and that discussion as being "pitchforks and torches" is, I'm afraid, inaccurate, unfair and unhelpful to that serious debate. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 1, 2018 18:42:03 GMT
You cannot fight discrimination with discrimination. End of! As a matter of interest what alternative measures would you advocate be taken to eliminate discrimination in coaching and other senior football appointments ? Why do you think that it has taken the introduction of the Rooney rule by the FA to open up a proper recognition of and debate about the discrimination in these appointments which has been going on for years ? If you cannot fight discrimination with discrimination, you certainly cannot fight it by doing nothing or refusing to accept that it even exists which has largely been the position of those in charge of the game until now. My issue is that I think Chairmen would appoint a sheep if they thought they could make their club better. I just don't buy that this problem exists with Chairmen, there's too much money involved to make it so. |
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Post by kustokie on Feb 1, 2018 18:50:57 GMT
Not only is this reprehensible and potentially illegal behavior, it’s also not true. From what I have seen and read Stoke have at least four African players (Zouma, BMI, Diouf and Choupo-Moting) who are as decent as they come and don’t seem to be causing any trouble in the dressing room whatsoever. Not so sure about Berahino, but 4 out of 5 isn’t bad. In any case Berahino who does seem of a ****k was raised in England.
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Post by wagsastokie on Feb 1, 2018 18:59:03 GMT
People should be allowed to employ who they wish if they wish to exclude talent for its ethnicity or gender they are the ones who in the end suffer
As they may well end up employing lesser staff
if I was to run a business I wouldn't employ a women of childbearing age rightly or wrongly
Colour gender race sexuality makes no difference I would employ anyone except the above I would not be prepared to put a business through the extra burden of maternity pay
The biggest crime in my book is he was stupid enough to admit in public such choice even though I think personally he is wrong
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Post by kustokie on Feb 1, 2018 19:02:22 GMT
People should be allowed to employ who they wish if they wish to exclude talent for its ethnicity or gender they are the ones who in the end suffer As they may well end up employing lesser staff if I was to run a business I wouldn't employ a women of childbearing age rightly or wrongly Colour gender race sexuality makes no difference I would employ anyone except the above I would not be prepared to put a business through the extra burden of maternity pay The biggest crime in my book is he was stupid enough to admit in public such choice even though I think personally he is wrong This probably explains why you don’t run a business. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Feb 1, 2018 19:08:51 GMT
People should be allowed to employ who they wish if they wish to exclude talent for its ethnicity or gender they are the ones who in the end suffer As they may well end up employing lesser staff if I was to run a business I wouldn't employ a women of childbearing age rightly or wrongly Colour gender race sexuality makes no difference I would employ anyone except the above I would not be prepared to put a business through the extra burden of maternity pay The biggest crime in my book is he was stupid enough to admit in public such choice even though I think personally he is wrong This probably explains why you don’t run a business. I have in the past quite successfully now retired due to ill health I have no problem with employing anybody who is good enough I just wouldn't saddle a business with the extra burden and cost of maternity pay You would find that your attitude may change if those extra costs were coming out of your pocket |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Feb 1, 2018 19:09:34 GMT
If he gets sacked, I heard Ron Atkinson fancies it.
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Post by leicspotter on Feb 1, 2018 19:24:12 GMT
People should be allowed to employ who they wish if they wish to exclude talent for its ethnicity or gender they are the ones who in the end suffer As they may well end up employing lesser staff if I was to run a business I wouldn't employ a women of childbearing age rightly or wrongly Colour gender race sexuality makes no difference I would employ anyone except the above I would not be prepared to put a business through the extra burden of maternity pay The biggest crime in my book is he was stupid enough to admit in public such choice even though I think personally he is wrong [/b] Whilst not agreeing with what Henry did, what you say is perfectly true...if you do have a policy, which is illegal, the last thing you should be doing is telling people. Clearly there is still a lot of discrimination in the workplace but I'm not entirely convinced that "positive discrimination" or whatever it may be called now, is the best solution...sadly I'm not sure what is...but education and changing attitudes has to be part of this. People should GENUINELY want to open up opportunities to all groups, and need to be shown the advantages of so doing. Trying to coerce employers down a particular route won't work, and those chosen this way may well be viewed as having lesser ability and to have "only been selected as part of a diversity programme". The "token" ethnic person, or "token" woman I'm sure many small businesses avoid taking on women of child bearing age because of the potential disruption, and expense, associated with maternity leave...can you really blame them? Governments bring in all these "rights" but don't properly help with paying for them...doesn't make sense. The lack of black football coaches and managers IS a disgrace...but why don't black players go down this route...is it racist chairmen and chief execs, or is it still about how our society treats people that makes them think..."this is not for me"? Is it a lack of role models? Parliament seems to have the same issues, yet two of the more recent PM's have been women  It's a complex issue that deserves debate... |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 1, 2018 19:40:59 GMT
Just seems when you are of a black ethnic background everything people say in 10x worse So those African players being denied a job at a Premier League club purely because of where they were born should get over themselves? And those black people furious at such a blatant example of institutionalised racism should get off their high horse and accept their lot in life? And the PC brigade should really be sensitive to a white man's inalienable right to exclude a black man from a job, because, well lets face it, all black people are the same and no where near as reliable as white people? We aren't talking "harmless banter" (which incidentally isn't harmless when, for good reason, it really hurts) - it's outright discrimination. Are you for real or a Viz character with an Oatcake account? |
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Post by alster on Feb 1, 2018 19:42:48 GMT
Not only is this reprehensible and potentially illegal behavior, it’s also not true. From what I have seen and read Stoke have at least four African players (Zouma, BMI, Diouf and Choupo-Moting) who are as decent as they come and don’t seem to be causing any trouble in the dressing room whatsoever. Not so sure about Berahino, but 4 out of 5 isn’t bad. In any case Berahino who does seem of a ****k was raised in England. Surely it just depends on his reasons as to whether its reprehensible or sensible. Now before they Changed the ACON to a Summer tournament recently I'd probably be thinking exactly the same. Them fucking off for a month mid season was really disruptive and I can see why anyone might be put off signing them just as I can well imagine why a small employer could be reluctant to employ a woman of childbearing age which whilst it may be discriminatory and illegal it is in all honesty perfectly understandable and the blokes only mistake is telling anyone about it. Its very difficult and I don't think it's helpful at all to place people who make such decisions alongside hate groups etc. That's why people like me rail against political correctness and any form of so called "positive discrimination". |
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Post by kustokie on Feb 1, 2018 19:45:17 GMT
This probably explains why you don’t run a business. I have in the past quite successfully now retired due to ill health I have no problem with employing anybody who is good enough I just wouldn't saddle a business with the extra burden and cost of maternity pay You would find that your attitude may change if those extra costs were coming out of your pocket Some how I doubt you could have been that successful and I find it interesting that you retired due to ill health. Maybe you would have been more successful if you hadn’t been so narrow minded and biased. How did you manage when you or your employees were off sick? Did you make them come in any way so they infected everyone else? This is a really poor business so many reasons. Firstly, you are eliminating about 30-40% of the most qualified appplicants (50% of all high school and college graduates), which is double jeopardy because not only are you not hiring the best, they are also going to the competiton. Secondly, how did prove that your female employees were post-menopausal - it’s not uncommon for women to have babies in their late forties and early fifties (a friend of ours just had her first baby at the age of 50 - a bit of a surprise but it happens). So to be safe, you could only hire women over 55. Thirdly, what do you do about homosexual couples that chose to adopt a baby - I assume that happens in the UK, so there goes another potential 10%. Fourthly, what happens in times of war? My mother worked in a munitions factory in WWII, 12 years before she had me and 15 years before she had my sister; so I assume she was of child-bearing age. PS: At one time I managed a department of over 700 people, including more than 100 with post-graduate degrees. We had babies all over the place - it was wonderful and we were highly successful. I have four kids born to mothers who were all working at the time. So I do kinda know how this works. |
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Post by kustokie on Feb 1, 2018 19:49:06 GMT
Not only is this reprehensible and potentially illegal behavior, it’s also not true. From what I have seen and read Stoke have at least four African players (Zouma, BMI, Diouf and Choupo-Moting) who are as decent as they come and don’t seem to be causing any trouble in the dressing room whatsoever. Not so sure about Berahino, but 4 out of 5 isn’t bad. In any case Berahino who does seem of a ****k was raised in England. Surely it just depends on his reasons as to whether its reprehensible or sensible. Now before they Changed the ACON to a Summer tournament recently I'd probably be thinking exactly the same. Them fucking off for a month mid season was really disruptive and I can see why anyone might be put off signing them just as I can well imagine why a small employer could be reluctant to employ a woman of childbearing age which whilst it may be discriminatory and illegal it is in all honesty perfectly understandable and the blokes only mistake is telling anyone about it. Its very difficult and I don't think it's helpful at all to place people who make such decisions alongside hate groups etc. That's why people like me rail against political correctness and any form of so called "positive discrimination". I am definitely against reverse discrimination, because it doesn’t work. You end up with less qualified people, who are resented by their colleagues because they are not the best - bad for the work place morale. Just hire the best qualified people and work to change the system. |
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Post by brinsleymaclagan on Feb 1, 2018 19:51:41 GMT
Everyone knows Egyptians are exactly the same as Nigerians are the same as Senegalese are identical to Zimbabweans and Algerians!
How stupid are these people?
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Post by kustokie on Feb 1, 2018 19:54:44 GMT
Everyone knows Egyptians are exactly the same as Nigerians are the same as Senegalese are identical to Zimbabweans and Algerians! How stupid are these people? According to our president, Africa, Haiti and El Salvador are all shitholes (there’s some debate whether he said that or shithouses). There’s no way to polish this turd - it’s all racism. End of discussion. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Feb 1, 2018 19:55:20 GMT
People should be allowed to employ who they wish if they wish to exclude talent for its ethnicity or gender they are the ones who in the end suffer As they may well end up employing lesser staff if I was to run a business I wouldn't employ a women of childbearing age rightly or wrongly Colour gender race sexuality makes no difference I would employ anyone except the above I would not be prepared to put a business through the extra burden of maternity pay The biggest crime in my book is he was stupid enough to admit in public such choice even though I think personally he is wrong [/b] Whilst not agreeing with what Henry did, what you say is perfectly true...if you do have a policy, which is illegal, the last thing you should be doing is telling people. Clearly there is still a lot of discrimination in the workplace but I'm not entirely convinced that "positive discrimination" or whatever it may be called now, is the best solution...sadly I'm not sure what is...but education and changing attitudes has to be part of this. People should GENUINELY want to open up opportunities to all groups, and need to be shown the advantages of so doing. Trying to coerce employers down a particular route won't work, and those chosen this way may well be viewed as having lesser ability and to have "only been selected as part of a diversity programme". The "token" ethnic person, or "token" woman I'm sure many small businesses avoid taking on women of child bearing age because of the potential disruption, and expense, associated with maternity leave...can you really blame them? Governments bring in all these "rights" but don't properly help with paying for them...doesn't make sense. The lack of black football coaches and managers IS a disgrace...but why don't black players go down this route...is it racist chairmen and chief execs, or is it still about how our society treats people that makes them think..."this is not for me"? Is it a lack of role models? Parliament seems to have the same issues, yet two of the more recent PM's have been women It's a complex issue that deserves debate... [/quote] To be honest I don't believe the lack of black coaches is down to racism I think it's a lack of availability of suitable candidates A lot of black players nowadays finish playing as multi millionaires they don't want the hassle of going into coaching The same goes for almost all premiership players Which is why we are getting a ever increasing amount of foreign managers that have not had the riches as players |
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Post by SneydGreenStokie on Feb 1, 2018 19:57:03 GMT
West Ham director of transfers Tony Henry suspended after sparking race row by admitting they don't want to sign any African players because 'they cause mayhem' Tony Henry told agents during January window they don't want African players West Ham United have suspended their director of player recruitment, Tony Henry, after he left them open to accusations of racism and potentially unlawful discrimination by telling agents in the transfer window that they don’t want to sign any more African players.
After being confronted by Sportsmail, Henry made the shocking admission that West Ham do indeed want to limit the number of African players because ‘they have a bad attitude’ and ‘cause mayhem’ when they are not in the team.West Ham have suspended head of player recruitment Tony Henry after a report was leaked alleging the use of discriminatory language.
A spokesperson said: “The Club can confirm that Director of Player Recruitment Tony Henry has been suspended pending a full and thorough investigation. West Ham United will not tolerate any type of discrimination and has, therefore, acted swiftly due to the serious nature of these claims.
“The West Ham United family is an inclusive one where, regardless of gender, age, ability, race, religion or sexual orientation, everybody feels welcome and included.
“The Club will make no further comment until the investigation has been concluded.”www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-5335207/West-Ham-director-sparks-race-row-African-stars.htmlwww.skysports.com/football/news/11685/11231807/west-ham-suspend-recruitment-chief-tony-henry-amid-discrimination-claimSaid nothing racist. Dont see the issue? SGS |
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Post by SneydGreenStokie on Feb 1, 2018 19:58:37 GMT
Where do they stand on Caribbean Players, or indeed Black British players... He has not said no more Blacks at all. A few years ago, totally unrelated, Sainsbury's would not allow East European HGV drivers to work for them, because they were just so bad...Is that racist... It's discriminatory and making appalling generalisations based on someone's origins. If Stoke fans were banned from attending games because 'all Stoke fans are hooligans', would that be fair enough? But is it fair enough had he said all British players cause mayhem? Same thing just a different race. People need chill out. SGS |
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Post by kustokie on Feb 1, 2018 19:58:56 GMT
West Ham director of transfers Tony Henry suspended after sparking race row by admitting they don't want to sign any African players because 'they cause mayhem' Tony Henry told agents during January window they don't want African players West Ham United have suspended their director of player recruitment, Tony Henry, after he left them open to accusations of racism and potentially unlawful discrimination by telling agents in the transfer window that they don’t want to sign any more African players.
After being confronted by Sportsmail, Henry made the shocking admission that West Ham do indeed want to limit the number of African players because ‘they have a bad attitude’ and ‘cause mayhem’ when they are not in the team.West Ham have suspended head of player recruitment Tony Henry after a report was leaked alleging the use of discriminatory language.
A spokesperson said: “The Club can confirm that Director of Player Recruitment Tony Henry has been suspended pending a full and thorough investigation. West Ham United will not tolerate any type of discrimination and has, therefore, acted swiftly due to the serious nature of these claims.
“The West Ham United family is an inclusive one where, regardless of gender, age, ability, race, religion or sexual orientation, everybody feels welcome and included.
“The Club will make no further comment until the investigation has been concluded.”www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-5335207/West-Ham-director-sparks-race-row-African-stars.htmlwww.skysports.com/football/news/11685/11231807/west-ham-suspend-recruitment-chief-tony-henry-amid-discrimination-claimSaid nothing racist. Dont see the issue? SGS “...don’t want Africans” sounds a teeny bit racist to me! |
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Post by SneydGreenStokie on Feb 1, 2018 20:02:49 GMT
Said nothing racist. Dont see the issue? SGS “...don’t want Africans” sounds a teeny bit racist to me! But saying 'British' is the same deal. Just the name thats different. SGS |
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Post by lordb on Feb 1, 2018 20:04:04 GMT
Everyone knows Egyptians are exactly the same as Nigerians are the same as Senegalese are identical to Zimbabweans and Algerians! How stupid are these people? According to our president, Africa, Haiti and El Salvador are all shitholes (there’s some debate whether he said that or shithouses). There’s no way to polish this turd - it’s all racism. End of discussion. "Our" president? |
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