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Post by Trouserdog on Dec 11, 2017 11:12:20 GMT
I'm currently planning a series of articles for the fanzine, discussing candidates who could have a claim to be in our greatest ever XI. It's hard to compare players from different eras for a number of reasons, but I'm going to have a go through a combination of playing records/stats, opinions, quotes and whatever else I can find. Trying to fit old-fashioned playing positions into a modern XI isn't that easy either, but with an element of shoe-horning position-wise, these are the shortlists I've come up with so far for a 4-2-3-1.
GK: Dennis Herod (1940-53), Gordon Banks (1967-73), Peter Shilton (1974-77), Peter Fox (1978-1993), Jack Butland (2013-present)
RB: Bob McGrory (1921-1935), Billy Mould (1937-1951), Jackie Marsh (1967-1979), Lee Dixon (1986-1988),
LB: John McCue (1946-1960), Tony Allen (1957-1970), Mike Pejic (1968-1976), Andy Griffin ( 1996-98/ 2007-08/2008-10)
CB: Neil Franklin (1939-50), Frank Mountford (1946-58), Alan Bloor (1960-1978), Denis Smith (1968-82) Alan Dodd (1972-83), Steve Bould (1981-88), Ryan Shawcross (2007-present) Robert Huth (2009-15),
CM : Arthur Turner (1930-1939), Frank Soo (1933-1945), Arthur Tutin (1933-39), John Sellars (1947-58), Erik Skeels (1959-76), John Mahoney (1967-77), Alan Hudson (1974-76/84-85), Mickey Thomas (1982-84/90-91), Howard Kendall (1977-79), Paul Bracewell (1979-83), Rory Delap (2006-13), Steven N'Zonzi (2012-2015)
RW: Stanley Matthews (1932-47/ 1961-65), Terry Conroy (1967-79), Mark Chamberlain (1982-85), Xherdan Shaqiri (2015-present)
AM: Frank Bowyer (1947-1960), Dennis Viollet (1962-67), Jimmy McIllroy (1962-65), Peter Dobing (1963-73), George Eastham (1966-73), Jimmy Greenhoff (1969-76),
LW: Harry Oscroft (1950-1959), Harry Burrows (1964-73), Geoff Salmons (1974-78), Peter Beagrie (1988-1989), Peter Hoekstra (2001-2004), Matty Etherington (2009-14), Marko Arnautovic (2013-17)
S: Freddie Steele (1933-49), John Ritchie (1962-66/69-75), Garth Crooks (1976-80), Mark Stein (1991-1993/96-97), Mike Sheron (1995-97), Ricardo Fuller (2006-12), Peter Crouch (2011-present)
Anyone I've missed off, misrepresented in terms of position or anything else you can think of? Feel free to argue the merits of one player over another or argue the case for a particular favourite...no royalties, but I might quote you...
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Dec 11, 2017 11:29:25 GMT
I love this type of thing even though it's insanely difficult going off reputation and legend since I only started watching in 1995. I know you've asked for more candidates in these positions but I'm not going to provide any (because it looks fairly comprehensive to me) and instead choose an XI from that list.
Banks
Marsh Smith Shawcross Pejic
Matthews Hudson NZonzi Hoekstra
Fuller Stein
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Post by lagwafis on Dec 11, 2017 11:33:03 GMT
Can't really argue against any of the names on there. There's also a good case for Tommy Sale (our top scorer when we finished 4th in 1936). Some might also consider Mickey Thomas given he won two player of the season awards across different spells with us (1983 and, in fairness the best of a poor bunch in 91)
I know he's thought of more in a 'lower league sense' and he wouldn't make the first team of my all time XI, but I think Vince Overson is important given he captained us to two trophies + his rallying cry was thought to be the catalyst when we almost made it to the Premiership in the mid 90s (although he was injured from December onwards that year).
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Post by lawrieleslie on Dec 11, 2017 11:37:11 GMT
Problem is your audience will be biased towards players they know or have watched. I’ll get my history books out and have a look and try and come up with a team.
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Post by lordb on Dec 11, 2017 11:39:11 GMT
Johnson from 30's side (played for England) should be in instead of Beagrie
Edit:
Hard to pick a formation
WM?
442?
Just pick as balanced side as you can,worry about that after
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Post by wuzza on Dec 11, 2017 11:42:51 GMT
It’s the pre WW2 stuff that’s difficult though isn’t it. We were a top level league club for a lot of that time and must have had some quality players but frankly it’s impossible to judge.
As a general rule If the players weren’t doing it in the top league (eg Hoekstra, Stein, Sheron) it’s hard to see how their level of performance can be comparable to others even if they made a great contribution at the time.
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Post by Bagwash on Dec 11, 2017 11:43:37 GMT
I love this type of thing even though it's insanely difficult going off reputation and legend since I only started watching in 1995. I know you've asked for more candidates in these positions but I'm not going to provide any (because it looks fairly comprehensive to me) and instead choose an XI from that list.
Banks
Marsh Smith Shawcross Pejic
Matthews Hudson NZonzi Hoekstra
Fuller Stein
Likewise,excellent thread. Trouserdog,I think your list is pretty comprehensive,I cannot think of any other additions I would include.  Boother,what a brill team you have selected.The only changes I would make would be Alan Bloor instead of Ryan,John Mahoney for N'Zonzi and a front two of Jimmy Greenhoff and Big John Ritchie. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 11, 2017 11:45:36 GMT
Roose among the keepers maybe?
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Post by onionman on Dec 11, 2017 11:46:34 GMT
Amazing that our best left-back since the 1970s is Andy Griffin.
I think I'd have Abdy Faye in there ahead of either Huth or Dodd.
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Post by essexstokey on Dec 11, 2017 11:52:04 GMT
My dad always said that one of our best ever goalkeepers was John Farmer
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Post by onionman on Dec 11, 2017 11:55:00 GMT
Oh and Tommy Clare. I read once that he was our only proper player during the very early years, in the days before tactics, he used to play in defence, midfield and attack at the same time, worked down the pit in the morning, ran his own successful pottery business in the evening, played for Stoke on Saturdays, and football, cricket, rugby, athletics, hockey and snooker for England on Sundays, all while smoking a pipe and later became the face of the first ever hair gel product to sell in the Potteries.
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Post by salopstick on Dec 11, 2017 11:55:12 GMT
You selection of Butland over sorro is hugely debatable. Jack is good and will be great one day but sorro was better than jack
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Post by jimmygscfc on Dec 11, 2017 11:57:21 GMT
Based on myth,legend, opinion of the day and stone-cold facts, I can't see any way in which Steele and Franklin wouldn't be in a greatest ever team.
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Post by wuzza on Dec 11, 2017 12:01:42 GMT
No mention for Eric Skeels who played more games than anyone and mainly at the top level?
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Post by cheadlepotter on Dec 11, 2017 12:02:09 GMT
As you can only compare to what they’ve come up against it is difficult but I’d like to mention Sergei Shtaniuk who was excellent for us. It’s such a shame that his Stoke career came to an end so soon.
A mention for Asmir Begovic also. He was magnificent for us and we could arguably have been relegated with a more average keeper. I believe he could have gone on to much bigger things if he had moved to a club where he’d be the number one and not a bench warmer.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 11, 2017 12:09:05 GMT
You selection of Butland over sorro is hugely debatable. Jack is good and will be great one day but sorro was better than jack Asmir was better than Sorro IMO. |
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Dec 11, 2017 12:11:40 GMT
It’s the pre WW2 stuff that’s difficult though isn’t it. We were a top level league club for a lot of that time and must have had some quality players but frankly it’s impossible to judge. As a general rule If the players weren’t doing it in the top league (eg Hoekstra, Stein, Sheron) it’s hard to see how their level of performance can be comparable to others even if they made a great contribution at the time. I think you have to mix it to include players who were important at different times at different levels, it doesn't make them any less "great" to Stoke City, it just doesn't mean they're objectively the best. Otherwise we'd argue that modern football is of a higher standard to older football and just pick one of the sides that finished 9th, whichever of those three finished on the highest points / best GD and the whole exercise becomes as stale and as boring as that. |
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Dec 11, 2017 12:14:43 GMT
You selection of Butland over sorro is hugely debatable. Jack is good and will be great one day but sorro was better than jack Derinitely disagree with that, Butland > Begovic > Sorensen |
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Dec 11, 2017 12:15:53 GMT
No mention for Eric Skeels who played more games than anyone and mainly at the top level? Skeels is in TD's original post! |
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Post by salopstick on Dec 11, 2017 12:18:23 GMT
You selection of Butland over sorro is hugely debatable. Jack is good and will be great one day but sorro was better than jack Asmir was better than Sorro IMO. Fair point. Both better than jack this far. |
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Post by Trouserdog on Dec 11, 2017 12:32:56 GMT
Johnson from 30's side (played for England) should be in instead of Beagrie Edit: Hard to pick a formation WM? 442? Just pick as balanced side as you can,worry about that after I've got Johnson's name on the notes I've scribbled. I was meant to include him as a left wing option- cheers for that one, I'll make sure he's in the final piece. |
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Post by Trouserdog on Dec 11, 2017 12:36:56 GMT
Amazing that our best left-back since the 1970s is Andy Griffin. I think I'd have Abdy Faye in there ahead of either Huth or Dodd. I loved Abdy- that first season was immense. I did think about including him but thought there were too many others who had several good seasons for us rather than just the one. He seemed to put a bit too much timber on after that initial year in the top-flight and just wasn't the same after. |
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Post by Trouserdog on Dec 11, 2017 12:44:16 GMT
Starting with a 4-2-3-1, I think the following positions are pretty much nailed on:
GK: Banks
RB:
CB: Franklin
CB:
LB:
CM:
CM: Hudson
RW:Matthews
AM: Greenhoff
LW:
S: Steele
The others I can be persuaded on. Hard to know how good McGrory and Mould were, but the former played for us for donkeys years so might be in the shortlist for longevity rather than ability. That nudges me towards Jackie Marsh for RB as Dixon's best football probably came at Arsenal.
I don't know a lot about Tony Allen. Thoughts on him vs Mick Pejic?
Franklin has to be one of the centre-backs. Who partners him?
Hudson needs someone with a bit of defensive bite alongside him. Who's it going to be?
Left wing's anyone's...I'd say Arnie and Ethers should be ahead of Hoekstra and Beagrie simply because they did the business at a higher level. How do the older ones compare against these two?
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Post by wuzza on Dec 11, 2017 12:53:46 GMT
No mention for Eric Skeels who played more games than anyone and mainly at the top level? Skeels is in TD's original post! Apologies - missed it ( and worryingly I had looked 2 or 3 times!! ) |
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Post by wuzza on Dec 11, 2017 12:58:26 GMT
It’s the pre WW2 stuff that’s difficult though isn’t it. We were a top level league club for a lot of that time and must have had some quality players but frankly it’s impossible to judge. As a general rule If the players weren’t doing it in the top league (eg Hoekstra, Stein, Sheron) it’s hard to see how their level of performance can be comparable to others even if they made a great contribution at the time. I think you have to mix it to include players who were important at different times at different levels, it doesn't make them any less "great" to Stoke City, it just doesn't mean they're objectively the best. Otherwise we'd argue that modern football is of a higher standard to older football and just pick one of the sides that finished 9th, whichever of those three finished on the highest points / best GD and the whole exercise becomes as stale and as boring as that. It’s a difficult line between greatest and favourite. For example my favourite keeper is Foxy who kept us in more games than I care to remember when I was young but you would be hard pressed to include him over Banks who was obviously a great on the world stage. To me the only certainties are Banks, Franklin, Mathews and Hudson. The rest probably come down to what era you started watching in and enjoyed the most. |
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Post by GrahamHyde on Dec 11, 2017 13:07:03 GMT
Any reason why you can't put Chamberlain or Conroy on the left hand side?
Predominantly right sided players but sure they can be shoe horned in to the team and better than the selection of left sided players in my opinion.
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Post by wuzza on Dec 11, 2017 13:09:37 GMT
The right back is a tough one - Marsh was a better full back than Dixon in terms of the time they each played for Stoke but Dixon definitely became the better player later in his career.
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Post by joinerssquire on Dec 11, 2017 13:13:54 GMT
I’d add Dave Watson to the list of centre halves. He might have been past his best when he came here but was still a cracking centre back.
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Post by mattythestokie on Dec 11, 2017 13:16:28 GMT
5 at the back anyone?
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Post by lordb on Dec 11, 2017 13:17:10 GMT
Starting with a 4-2-3-1, I think the following positions are pretty much nailed on: GK: Banks RB: CB: Franklin CB: LB: CM: CM: Hudson RW:Matthews AM: Greenhoff LW: S: Steele The others I can be persuaded on. Hard to know how good McGrory and Mould were, but the former played for us for donkeys years so might be in the shortlist for longevity rather than ability. That nudges me towards Jackie Marsh for RB as Dixon's best football probably came at Arsenal. I don't know a lot about Tony Allen. Thoughts on him vs Mick Pejic? Franklin has to be one of the centre-backs. Who partners him? Hudson needs someone with a bit of defensive bite alongside him. Who's it going to be? Left wing's anyone's...I'd say Arnie and Ethers should be ahead of Hoekstra and Beagrie simply because they did the business at a higher level. How do the older ones compare against these two? I think you have to have Frank Soo in as well |
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