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Post by burge2u on Jun 28, 2017 6:59:17 GMT
I'm not sure if its true but it does appear that a lot of the foreign coaches are very professional , I was reading about the bloke who has just taken over at Southampton and he does sound really impressive . I can see Pete bringing Big Sam out of retirement to pull us out of the shit round about November if we dont make a few decent signings Big Sam, ...... heaven forbid
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Post by Squeekster on Jun 28, 2017 8:02:30 GMT
Because it's his football club? At the risk of going all Corbyn, the club belongs to the fans. I know but sadly we can't afford the pleasure to run it so we put our faith in the chairman who happens to have hold of the purse.
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Post by coupe on Jun 28, 2017 9:12:32 GMT
Because it's his football club? At the risk of going all Corbyn, the club belongs to the fans. If that's the case you owe the club £1,000 and that is just for the Imbula transfer never mind the rest.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Jun 28, 2017 9:15:32 GMT
My argument is that there is no good reason why a foreign coach is better. As we have agreed, there are successes and failures across the board.
With regard to Monk, you would have to agree he did a good job at Swansea, then hit a bad patch, before doing another good job at Leeds. Chris Hughton did really well in the Championship with Newcastle and Brighton. Even Neil Warnock worked a miracle with Cardiff last season.
So why have Palace and Southampton appointed foreign coaches with no Premier league experience, unless there is some unquantifiable belief that they are better than British coaches? A mystery reason you appear to endorse.
It's a strange one to me.
Hang on, it is quantifiable if you looked at that link. I think Monk is a decent manager and I'm not convinced by de Boer. I think Pellegrino is potentially a really good appointment for Soton. I notice you missed out Hughton's stint with Norwich, any particular reason? You haven't answered my question? Why should the managers you listed be given a top 7 job? What in their careers has earned them that right? The link uses a set of average statistics to suggest that foreign managers perform better. I'm not sure that tells the whole story.
For example, when Mark Hughes was at Manchester City, he had nowhere near the financial resources of his foreign successors. Arsene Wenger inherited a solid back 4 (which he has subsequently never managed to recreate) and Denis Bergkamp, possibly Ian Wright too. Maybe foreign managers tend to be at bigger, richer clubs, rather than at clubs scrapping at the bottom of the leagues, slanting the stats again.
David Moyes took Everton into the Champions League without the big money signings of Martinez or Koeman. Hodgson and McLaren took Fulham and Boro to Europa League finals. And for what it's worth, Chris Hughton took Norwich City to 11th in the Premier League. It will be a hell of a long time before they better that. He left the next season with, surprise, surprise, a small provincial relatively new Premier League club battling relegation.
Last season Jose Mourinho spent the equivalent of the national debt of an African republic to produce the dullest Manchester United team for years. They were lucky to win the League Cup and came up against a youthful Ajax in the Europa League final. Klopp couldn't get Liverpool past Southampton over 2 legs, and like us, exited the FA Cup to Wolves at home. Liverpool!?
Likewise, Pep Guardiola came with some ridiculous notion about a rush goalie and made a fool of himself. With the resources they have, for both Manchester clubs to finish below Tottenham is a disgrace. It's failure on an epic scale.
Do you believe Howe would be worse than Wenger with that Arsenal squad? Or Dyche worse than Klopp? Or that West Ham are better under Billic than they were under Allardyce? Conversley would Mourinho have done better than Moyes at Sunderland with that team, or would Guardiola have kept Boro up with those players?
Arsenal might give Howe a break when Wenger finally moves on, but it would be no surprise if they appointed a foreign coach.
It's a fashion. There is no guarantee. Every managerial appointment is a risk, but somehow, Chairmen of big clubs seem to believe that foreign is better.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Jun 28, 2017 9:41:26 GMT
Alster, for some reason I can't "quote" your post.
I'm not championing British coaches because they are British, I'm simply questioning whether or not foreign coaches are any better.
I'm not sure I see the evidence of that, but I do see Palace, Southampton, last season Swansea and Hull taking a punt on that.
How ever you dress it up, for Manchester United to spend around £300 million under Jose Mourinho and finish 6th in the league is failure. Every time Manchester City don't finish in the top 2, it's a failure.
You must be the only person who still believes Martinez has any credibility. He took Everton backwards at an alarming rate. International/cup style football will suit him better, but it will be interesting to see how he performs with possibly the most talented squad of players in world football. Interesting to see that in March of this year, in a straightforward World Cup qualifying group, only a very late Lukaku goal rescued a home draw against the might of Greece.
I'm not sure any of those top 7 managers would have done better than Dyche at Burnley, with his players and budget, but somehow they are all perceived to be "better" managers. Why? And as I've said before, for some reason, it is almost impossible to envisage even Southampton or Everton, never mind the big 6, giving Dyche the job. Maybe it's a perception, a media thing, I don't know, but there doesn't seem to be any logic in that.
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Post by thevoid on Jun 28, 2017 9:56:35 GMT
At the risk of going all Corbyn, the club belongs to the fans. If that's the case you owe the club £1,000 and that is just for the Imbula transfer never mind the rest. I'm sure the club have had that and more from me down the years.
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Post by alster on Jun 28, 2017 10:06:48 GMT
Alster, for some reason I can't "quote" your post. I'm not championing British coaches because they are British, I'm simply questioning whether or not foreign coaches are any better. I'm not sure I see the evidence of that, but I do see Palace, Southampton, last season Swansea and Hull taking a punt on that. How ever you dress it up, for Manchester United to spend around £300 million under Jose Mourinho and finish 6th in the league is failure. Every time Manchester City don't finish in the top 2, it's a failure. You must be the only person who still believes Martinez has any credibility. He took Everton backwards at an alarming rate. International/cup style football will suit him better, but it will be interesting to see how he performs with possibly the most talented squad of players in world football. Interesting to see that in March of this year, in a straightforward World Cup qualifying group, only a very late Lukaku goal rescued a home draw against the might of Greece. I'm not sure any of those top 7 managers would have done better than Dyche at Burnley, with his players and budget, but somehow they are all perceived to be "better" managers. Why? And as I've said before, for some reason, it is almost impossible to envisage even Southampton or Everton, never mind the big 6, giving Dyche the job. Maybe it's a perception, a media thing, I don't know, but there doesn't seem to be any logic in that. I don't see why any of the top clubs would seek to employ Dyche. They tend to employ coaches who win/have won silverware not managers who scrape avoiding relegation however commendable given their resources. You talk as if foreign managers are getting the top jobs on the basis of fuck all and its simply not true. They're getting the jobs because they have a successful track record at the highest level. Any notion that Dyche would completely change his football philosophy given a large budget and suddenly become a different manager that would be likely to win things is a leap of faith. Its like saying given Pulis' track record he should get a top job, it just isn't going to happen he's done a steady job for 3 Prem clubs but he's never shown any indication that his methods would win silverware.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Jun 28, 2017 10:17:56 GMT
Alster, for some reason I can't "quote" your post. I'm not championing British coaches because they are British, I'm simply questioning whether or not foreign coaches are any better. I'm not sure I see the evidence of that, but I do see Palace, Southampton, last season Swansea and Hull taking a punt on that. How ever you dress it up, for Manchester United to spend around £300 million under Jose Mourinho and finish 6th in the league is failure. Every time Manchester City don't finish in the top 2, it's a failure. You must be the only person who still believes Martinez has any credibility. He took Everton backwards at an alarming rate. International/cup style football will suit him better, but it will be interesting to see how he performs with possibly the most talented squad of players in world football. Interesting to see that in March of this year, in a straightforward World Cup qualifying group, only a very late Lukaku goal rescued a home draw against the might of Greece. I'm not sure any of those top 7 managers would have done better than Dyche at Burnley, with his players and budget, but somehow they are all perceived to be "better" managers. Why? And as I've said before, for some reason, it is almost impossible to envisage even Southampton or Everton, never mind the big 6, giving Dyche the job. Maybe it's a perception, a media thing, I don't know, but there doesn't seem to be any logic in that. I don't see why any of the top clubs would seek to employ Dyche. They tend to employ coaches who win/have won silverware not managers who scrape avoiding relegation however commendable given their resources. You talk as if foreign managers are getting the top jobs on the basis of fuck all and its simply not true. They're getting the jobs because they have a successful track record at the highest level. Any notion that Dyche would completely change his football philosophy given a large budget and suddenly become a different manager that would be likely to win things is a leap of faith. Its like saying given Pulis' track record he should get a top job, it just isn't going to happen he's done a steady job for 3 Prem clubs but he's never shown any indication that his methods would win silverware. I agree with you there Al, but Sean Dyche could have a successful career and never win anything because he just won't get the opportunity. It's one thing winning trophies at Barcelona, or winning the Dutch League with Ajax (or Twente as er, Steve McLaren did) but it's quite another thing to win a trophy with Burnley.
I'm not saying Dyche is some kind of messiah either, but I'm also not sure whether any foreign coach could do a better job under the same circumstances at Burnley.
As for Pulis, he's done an unbelievable job for 3 Prem Clubs - steady is massively understating it - but you're right, there is no way he would get a top job. He did take Stoke to an FA Cup final just 3 years after promotion though, which might go down as an indication that he could win trophies. But would even he be so much worse than say Klopp at Liverpool?
There's good coaches and bad coaches. For some reason, right now in Britain, there is a perception that the best coaches are foreign. That's all I'm questioning.
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Post by alster on Jun 28, 2017 10:35:58 GMT
I don't see why any of the top clubs would seek to employ Dyche. They tend to employ coaches who win/have won silverware not managers who scrape avoiding relegation however commendable given their resources. You talk as if foreign managers are getting the top jobs on the basis of fuck all and its simply not true. They're getting the jobs because they have a successful track record at the highest level. Any notion that Dyche would completely change his football philosophy given a large budget and suddenly become a different manager that would be likely to win things is a leap of faith. Its like saying given Pulis' track record he should get a top job, it just isn't going to happen he's done a steady job for 3 Prem clubs but he's never shown any indication that his methods would win silverware. I agree with you there Al, but Sean Dyche could have a successful career and never win anything because he just won't get the opportunity. It's one thing winning trophies at Barcelona, or winning the Dutch League with Ajax (or Twente as er, Steve McLaren did) but it's quite another thing to win a trophy with Burnley.
I'm not saying Dyche is some kind of messiah either, but I'm also not sure whether any foreign coach could do a better job under the same circumstances at Burnley.
As for Pulis, he's done an unbelievable job for 3 Prem Clubs - steady is massively understating it - but you're right, there is no way he would get a top job. He did take Stoke to an FA Cup final just 3 years after promotion though, which might go down as an indication that he could win trophies. But would even he be so much worse than say Klopp at Liverpool?
There's good coaches and bad coaches. For some reason, right now in Britain, there is a perception that the best coaches are foreign. That's all I'm questioning.
I just think you need to have a whole different approach to win stuff regularly which the top clubs demand. There's your difference between Pulis who made it to a cup final and bottled it with his default safety first approach and Martinez who won the cup against more or less the same Man City side by being bold. I do believe that Pulis would be massively worse than Klopp, I think he'd struggle to attain the position that Klopp has even without picking up silverware but possibly the main thing would be that having failed to win silverware some of the football that Klopp's Liverpool have produced leaves a warm glow whereas the football Pulis produces leaves no satisfaction at all.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Jun 28, 2017 10:48:18 GMT
I agree with you on Pulis and Klopp. Some of Liverpool's fast football this season has been a joy to watch.
Could Klopp do the same at West Brom? Not sure. Bigger, richer clubs make it easier for good coaches, with their better scouting networks and ability to attract better players.
I'm not sure Pulis bottled it in the Cup Final. He had a game plan of containment, but was robbed of a fully fit Huth, Etherington and Fuller. Full credit to Martinez for winning the FA Cup, but the truth is that Manchester City "lost" it, as they would have done if we had beat them.
It's hard to argue that Martinez is a better coach than Pulis though. Pulis's achievements with Stoke, Palace and West Brom are in my opinion, beyond Martinez's skills.
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Post by coupe on Jun 28, 2017 11:54:01 GMT
If that's the case you owe the club £1,000 and that is just for the Imbula transfer never mind the rest. I'm sure the club have had that and more from me down the years. Yes you are right but that is just for one players signature minus his obscene wages.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 28, 2017 11:55:59 GMT
Hang on, it is quantifiable if you looked at that link. I think Monk is a decent manager and I'm not convinced by de Boer. I think Pellegrino is potentially a really good appointment for Soton. I notice you missed out Hughton's stint with Norwich, any particular reason? You haven't answered my question? Why should the managers you listed be given a top 7 job? What in their careers has earned them that right? The link uses a set of average statistics to suggest that foreign managers perform better. I'm not sure that tells the whole story.
For example, when Mark Hughes was at Manchester City, he had nowhere near the financial resources of his foreign successors. Arsene Wenger inherited a solid back 4 (which he has subsequently never managed to recreate) and Denis Bergkamp, possibly Ian Wright too. Maybe foreign managers tend to be at bigger, richer clubs, rather than at clubs scrapping at the bottom of the leagues, slanting the stats again.
David Moyes took Everton into the Champions League without the big money signings of Martinez or Koeman. Hodgson and McLaren took Fulham and Boro to Europa League finals. And for what it's worth, Chris Hughton took Norwich City to 11th in the Premier League. It will be a hell of a long time before they better that. He left the next season with, surprise, surprise, a small provincial relatively new Premier League club battling relegation.
Last season Jose Mourinho spent the equivalent of the national debt of an African republic to produce the dullest Manchester United team for years. They were lucky to win the League Cup and came up against a youthful Ajax in the Europa League final. Klopp couldn't get Liverpool past Southampton over 2 legs, and like us, exited the FA Cup to Wolves at home. Liverpool!?
Likewise, Pep Guardiola came with some ridiculous notion about a rush goalie and made a fool of himself. With the resources they have, for both Manchester clubs to finish below Tottenham is a disgrace. It's failure on an epic scale.
Do you believe Howe would be worse than Wenger with that Arsenal squad? Or Dyche worse than Klopp? Or that West Ham are better under Billic than they were under Allardyce? Conversley would Mourinho have done better than Moyes at Sunderland with that team, or would Guardiola have kept Boro up with those players?
Arsenal might give Howe a break when Wenger finally moves on, but it would be no surprise if they appointed a foreign coach.
It's a fashion. There is no guarantee. Every managerial appointment is a risk, but somehow, Chairmen of big clubs seem to believe that foreign is better.
So it isn't actually that there's no evidence, just that you want to summarily dismiss any and all evidence put in front of you because it doesn't suit. You deride the achievements of foreign managers and then explain away the failures of British ones. Norwich's relegation under Hughton was on him, their fans detested his football by the end and he got them relegated. You can't give him credit for his successes and dismiss that out of hand. Again, we can both talk up specific examples, but to take your points one by one. Hughes had plenty of resource at Man City. He spent £25m on Lescott, £25m on Adebayor, £32m on Robinho and loads more besides. You can argue he wasn't given enough time, but that's hardly a problem exclusively affecting British managers. Wenger, and I'm no fan of his, still won two titles (and reached a Champions League final) with a defence of his own making after the one he'd inherited retired. I don't know about Howe, he's got potential, if he keeps doing well with Bournemouth I think he'll get a chance with a bigger side. Like Moyes, Hughes, Redknapp and Rodgers did. I think Dyche would do considerably worse than Klopp, yes. Klopp's record at Mainz and Dortmund was phenomenal and from seeing his teams play, while not perfect, he has managed to improve and coach a lot of players to be better and he's improved the team he took over. Dyche has done marvellously well at Burnley but to me he's just another Pulis. Keep them up playing dour, organised football. Great up to a point. Won't do much more than survival. Why should finishing 16th in the league get you one of the biggest jobs in the country? When English managers actually win something, they tend to get their chance.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 28, 2017 11:57:50 GMT
I agree with you on Pulis and Klopp. Some of Liverpool's fast football this season has been a joy to watch. Could Klopp do the same at West Brom? Not sure. Bigger, richer clubs make it easier for good coaches, with their better scouting networks and ability to attract better players. I'm not sure Pulis bottled it in the Cup Final. He had a game plan of containment, but was robbed of a fully fit Huth, Etherington and Fuller. Full credit to Martinez for winning the FA Cup, but the truth is that Manchester City "lost" it, as they would have done if we had beat them. It's hard to argue that Martinez is a better coach than Pulis though. Pulis's achievements with Stoke, Palace and West Brom are in my opinion, beyond Martinez's skills. Klopp's success with Mainz suggests he could, no? His Dortmund side, at first, wasn't blessed with an enormous budget or wage bill despite them being a big club. I don't like Mourinho but yeah, he could do better than Moyes at Sunderland. He won the Champions League with Porto.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2017 12:00:54 GMT
That doesn't answer the question. It becomes a valid point, if we reach the stage with MH where we have to part ways. The list of available British managers is a pretty depressing one at any given moment in time; which could, of course, mean that MH is given more time than usual if it's not going well. I'm not sure there's a 'policy' but if there were one, it would be a bit short-sighted. Look down the years and you'll see that he's never appointed a non British manager, maybe he's a traditionalist, it answers the question to a point, it's his club and he'll run it how he wants. It seems we are all bemoaning the lack of oppertunities for young British managers in the prem yet we are all fixated on bringing in a foreign one. The Manager can come from Timbuktu for all I care.
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Post by Squeekster on Jun 28, 2017 12:39:31 GMT
Look down the years and you'll see that he's never appointed a non British manager, maybe he's a traditionalist, it answers the question to a point, it's his club and he'll run it how he wants. It seems we are all bemoaning the lack of oppertunities for young British managers in the prem yet we are all fixated on bringing in a foreign one. The Manager can come from Timbuktu for all I care. Same here, lived and worked in both New Zealnd and America so i'd be a hypocite if i thought other wise.
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Post by alster on Jun 28, 2017 14:00:57 GMT
Look down the years and you'll see that he's never appointed a non British manager, maybe he's a traditionalist, it answers the question to a point, it's his club and he'll run it how he wants. It seems we are all bemoaning the lack of oppertunities for young British managers in the prem yet we are all fixated on bringing in a foreign one. The Manager can come from Timbuktu for all I care. Agreed I'm not interested in his nationality or his religion and if Coates is he's doing himself a disservice.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Jun 28, 2017 15:16:18 GMT
The link uses a set of average statistics to suggest that foreign managers perform better. I'm not sure that tells the whole story.
For example, when Mark Hughes was at Manchester City, he had nowhere near the financial resources of his foreign successors. Arsene Wenger inherited a solid back 4 (which he has subsequently never managed to recreate) and Denis Bergkamp, possibly Ian Wright too. Maybe foreign managers tend to be at bigger, richer clubs, rather than at clubs scrapping at the bottom of the leagues, slanting the stats again.
David Moyes took Everton into the Champions League without the big money signings of Martinez or Koeman. Hodgson and McLaren took Fulham and Boro to Europa League finals. And for what it's worth, Chris Hughton took Norwich City to 11th in the Premier League. It will be a hell of a long time before they better that. He left the next season with, surprise, surprise, a small provincial relatively new Premier League club battling relegation.
Last season Jose Mourinho spent the equivalent of the national debt of an African republic to produce the dullest Manchester United team for years. They were lucky to win the League Cup and came up against a youthful Ajax in the Europa League final. Klopp couldn't get Liverpool past Southampton over 2 legs, and like us, exited the FA Cup to Wolves at home. Liverpool!?
Likewise, Pep Guardiola came with some ridiculous notion about a rush goalie and made a fool of himself. With the resources they have, for both Manchester clubs to finish below Tottenham is a disgrace. It's failure on an epic scale.
Do you believe Howe would be worse than Wenger with that Arsenal squad? Or Dyche worse than Klopp? Or that West Ham are better under Billic than they were under Allardyce? Conversley would Mourinho have done better than Moyes at Sunderland with that team, or would Guardiola have kept Boro up with those players?
Arsenal might give Howe a break when Wenger finally moves on, but it would be no surprise if they appointed a foreign coach.
It's a fashion. There is no guarantee. Every managerial appointment is a risk, but somehow, Chairmen of big clubs seem to believe that foreign is better.
So it isn't actually that there's no evidence, just that you want to summarily dismiss any and all evidence put in front of you because it doesn't suit. You deride the achievements of foreign managers and then explain away the failures of British ones. Norwich's relegation under Hughton was on him, their fans detested his football by the end and he got them relegated. You can't give him credit for his successes and dismiss that out of hand. Again, we can both talk up specific examples, but to take your points one by one. Hughes had plenty of resource at Man City. He spent £25m on Lescott, £25m on Adebayor, £32m on Robinho and loads more besides. You can argue he wasn't given enough time, but that's hardly a problem exclusively affecting British managers. Wenger, and I'm no fan of his, still won two titles (and reached a Champions League final) with a defence of his own making after the one he'd inherited retired. I don't know about Howe, he's got potential, if he keeps doing well with Bournemouth I think he'll get a chance with a bigger side. Like Moyes, Hughes, Redknapp and Rodgers did. I think Dyche would do considerably worse than Klopp, yes. Klopp's record at Mainz and Dortmund was phenomenal and from seeing his teams play, while not perfect, he has managed to improve and coach a lot of players to be better and he's improved the team he took over. Dyche has done marvellously well at Burnley but to me he's just another Pulis. Keep them up playing dour, organised football. Great up to a point. Won't do much more than survival. Why should finishing 16th in the league get you one of the biggest jobs in the country? When English managers actually win something, they tend to get their chance. I'm not dismissing the evidence, I'm pointing out that statistics can be used to suggest a theory, without taking in all factors like size of clubs, existing squads, budget etc.
It would be similar to saying that the Premier League has been won more times by British managers than foreign managers and using that as a basis to suggest British managers have been more successful. Too narrow to make that judgement.
Similarly, nobody can say how Mourinho would have done at Sunderland etc because we don't know. Benitez went down with Newcastle - fact. He is a good manager with a great track record, but put into a struggling club he couldn't save them.
I'm not deriding foreign coaches either. I've said previously that there are good coaches and bad coaches, and some who get lucky at a certain club at a certain time, foreign and British.
All I'm questioning is the current fashion for foreign coaches, based on the perception that they are better, when that perception is difficult to quantify. I think it's the Pochettino effect - every Chairman is looking for that hidden gem that will make a difference.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 28, 2017 15:25:23 GMT
So it isn't actually that there's no evidence, just that you want to summarily dismiss any and all evidence put in front of you because it doesn't suit. You deride the achievements of foreign managers and then explain away the failures of British ones. Norwich's relegation under Hughton was on him, their fans detested his football by the end and he got them relegated. You can't give him credit for his successes and dismiss that out of hand. Again, we can both talk up specific examples, but to take your points one by one. Hughes had plenty of resource at Man City. He spent £25m on Lescott, £25m on Adebayor, £32m on Robinho and loads more besides. You can argue he wasn't given enough time, but that's hardly a problem exclusively affecting British managers. Wenger, and I'm no fan of his, still won two titles (and reached a Champions League final) with a defence of his own making after the one he'd inherited retired. I don't know about Howe, he's got potential, if he keeps doing well with Bournemouth I think he'll get a chance with a bigger side. Like Moyes, Hughes, Redknapp and Rodgers did. I think Dyche would do considerably worse than Klopp, yes. Klopp's record at Mainz and Dortmund was phenomenal and from seeing his teams play, while not perfect, he has managed to improve and coach a lot of players to be better and he's improved the team he took over. Dyche has done marvellously well at Burnley but to me he's just another Pulis. Keep them up playing dour, organised football. Great up to a point. Won't do much more than survival. Why should finishing 16th in the league get you one of the biggest jobs in the country? When English managers actually win something, they tend to get their chance. I'm not dismissing the evidence, I'm pointing out that statistics can be used to suggest a theory, without taking in all factors like size of clubs, existing squads, budget etc.
It would be similar to saying that the Premier League has been won more times by British managers than foreign managers and using that as a basis to suggest British managers have been more successful. Too narrow to make that judgement.
Similarly, nobody can say how Mourinho would have done at Sunderland etc because we don't know. Benitez went down with Newcastle - fact. He is a good manager with a great track record, but put into a struggling club he couldn't save them.
I'm not deriding foreign coaches either. I've said previously that there are good coaches and bad coaches, and some who get lucky at a certain club at a certain time, foreign and British.
All I'm questioning is the current fashion for foreign coaches, based on the perception that they are better, when that perception is difficult to quantify. I think it's the Pochettino effect - every Chairman is looking for that hidden gem that will make a difference.
They've not just been appointed because they're 'foreign' though, it's because they've achieved something and are seen as the right fit for the club. I think it's fair to say that if Allardyce can do better than Moyes at a club, Mourinho can. He earned his big jobs through success at smaller clubs. That's how it works. Very harsh on Benitez - he's not perfect (and he had become a big problem for Liverpool by the end) but anyone would have struggled to keep Newcastle up. He did well to make a fight of it, as Silva did at Hull. I don't think the perception is difficult to quantify. I just don't agree that British managers are unfairly overlooked. Successful managers of any nationality get their chance. When there was talk of Hughes going at the end of the season, I hoped to god Coates would look abroad, because there wasn't one single viable British option I wanted.
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Post by senojbor on Jun 28, 2017 15:38:14 GMT
Whatever the case I'm not confident Hughes will be here come xmas. Unless someone can convince me that this current set of players can miraculously stop getting hammered by any team that plays decent football. There doesn't look like there will be any backing either after the transfer fiascos of the last few windows, sad to say. Personally I'd change the situation now.
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Post by alster on Jun 28, 2017 16:03:36 GMT
So it isn't actually that there's no evidence, just that you want to summarily dismiss any and all evidence put in front of you because it doesn't suit. You deride the achievements of foreign managers and then explain away the failures of British ones. Norwich's relegation under Hughton was on him, their fans detested his football by the end and he got them relegated. You can't give him credit for his successes and dismiss that out of hand. Again, we can both talk up specific examples, but to take your points one by one. Hughes had plenty of resource at Man City. He spent £25m on Lescott, £25m on Adebayor, £32m on Robinho and loads more besides. You can argue he wasn't given enough time, but that's hardly a problem exclusively affecting British managers. Wenger, and I'm no fan of his, still won two titles (and reached a Champions League final) with a defence of his own making after the one he'd inherited retired. I don't know about Howe, he's got potential, if he keeps doing well with Bournemouth I think he'll get a chance with a bigger side. Like Moyes, Hughes, Redknapp and Rodgers did. I think Dyche would do considerably worse than Klopp, yes. Klopp's record at Mainz and Dortmund was phenomenal and from seeing his teams play, while not perfect, he has managed to improve and coach a lot of players to be better and he's improved the team he took over. Dyche has done marvellously well at Burnley but to me he's just another Pulis. Keep them up playing dour, organised football. Great up to a point. Won't do much more than survival. Why should finishing 16th in the league get you one of the biggest jobs in the country? When English managers actually win something, they tend to get their chance. I'm not dismissing the evidence, I'm pointing out that statistics can be used to suggest a theory, without taking in all factors like size of clubs, existing squads, budget etc.
It would be similar to saying that the Premier League has been won more times by British managers than foreign managers and using that as a basis to suggest British managers have been more successful. Too narrow to make that judgement.
Similarly, nobody can say how Mourinho would have done at Sunderland etc because we don't know. Benitez went down with Newcastle - fact. He is a good manager with a great track record, but put into a struggling club he couldn't save them.
I'm not deriding foreign coaches either. I've said previously that there are good coaches and bad coaches, and some who get lucky at a certain club at a certain time, foreign and British.
All I'm questioning is the current fashion for foreign coaches, based on the perception that they are better, when that perception is difficult to quantify. I think it's the Pochettino effect - every Chairman is looking for that hidden gem that will make a difference.
They're quite right to be as well !
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Post by alster on Jun 28, 2017 16:08:52 GMT
Whatever the case I'm not confident Hughes will be here come xmas. Unless someone can convince me that this current set of players can miraculously stop getting hammered by any team that plays decent football. There doesn't look like there will be any backing either after the transfer fiascos of the last few windows, sad to say. Personally I'd change the situation now. I agree but have pretty much stopped banging on about it because it just isn't happening. We just have to hope he can snap out of the malaise that has been adversely affecting his management the past 2 seasons.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Jun 28, 2017 16:29:27 GMT
I'm not dismissing the evidence, I'm pointing out that statistics can be used to suggest a theory, without taking in all factors like size of clubs, existing squads, budget etc.
It would be similar to saying that the Premier League has been won more times by British managers than foreign managers and using that as a basis to suggest British managers have been more successful. Too narrow to make that judgement.
Similarly, nobody can say how Mourinho would have done at Sunderland etc because we don't know. Benitez went down with Newcastle - fact. He is a good manager with a great track record, but put into a struggling club he couldn't save them.
I'm not deriding foreign coaches either. I've said previously that there are good coaches and bad coaches, and some who get lucky at a certain club at a certain time, foreign and British.
All I'm questioning is the current fashion for foreign coaches, based on the perception that they are better, when that perception is difficult to quantify. I think it's the Pochettino effect - every Chairman is looking for that hidden gem that will make a difference.
They've not just been appointed because they're 'foreign' though, it's because they've achieved something and are seen as the right fit for the club. I think it's fair to say that if Allardyce can do better than Moyes at a club, Mourinho can. He earned his big jobs through success at smaller clubs. That's how it works. Very harsh on Benitez - he's not perfect (and he had become a big problem for Liverpool by the end) but anyone would have struggled to keep Newcastle up. He did well to make a fight of it, as Silva did at Hull. I don't think the perception is difficult to quantify. I just don't agree that British managers are unfairly overlooked. Successful managers of any nationality get their chance. When there was talk of Hughes going at the end of the season, I hoped to god Coates would look abroad, because there wasn't one single viable British option I wanted. We have to disagree. Dr Boer has won the Dutch league, like Steve McLaren and the bloke at Saints finished 9th on La Liga and was sacked by Valencia. I would suggest that the foreign factor seems to be as important as their achievements in football.
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Post by Pugsley on Jun 28, 2017 16:41:33 GMT
I don't see why any of the top clubs would seek to employ Dyche. They tend to employ coaches who win/have won silverware not managers who scrape avoiding relegation however commendable given their resources. You talk as if foreign managers are getting the top jobs on the basis of fuck all and its simply not true. They're getting the jobs because they have a successful track record at the highest level. Any notion that Dyche would completely change his football philosophy given a large budget and suddenly become a different manager that would be likely to win things is a leap of faith. Its like saying given Pulis' track record he should get a top job, it just isn't going to happen he's done a steady job for 3 Prem clubs but he's never shown any indication that his methods would win silverware. I agree with you there Al, but Sean Dyche could have a successful career and never win anything because he just won't get the opportunity. It's one thing winning trophies at Barcelona, or winning the Dutch League with Ajax (or Twente as er, Steve McLaren did) but it's quite another thing to win a trophy with Burnley.
I'm not saying Dyche is some kind of messiah either, but I'm also not sure whether any foreign coach could do a better job under the same circumstances at Burnley.
As for Pulis, he's done an unbelievable job for 3 Prem Clubs - steady is massively understating it - but you're right, there is no way he would get a top job. He did take Stoke to an FA Cup final just 3 years after promotion though, which might go down as an indication that he could win trophies. But would even he be so much worse than say Klopp at Liverpool?
There's good coaches and bad coaches. For some reason, right now in Britain, there is a perception that the best coaches are foreign. That's all I'm questioning.
Martinez won the FA Cup with a club smaller than Stoke City and Burnley. When Moyes was manager at Man Utd he couldn't attract the players despite the job he did at Everton. Pulis couldn't handle the expectation at Liverpool.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 28, 2017 16:45:38 GMT
They've not just been appointed because they're 'foreign' though, it's because they've achieved something and are seen as the right fit for the club. I think it's fair to say that if Allardyce can do better than Moyes at a club, Mourinho can. He earned his big jobs through success at smaller clubs. That's how it works. Very harsh on Benitez - he's not perfect (and he had become a big problem for Liverpool by the end) but anyone would have struggled to keep Newcastle up. He did well to make a fight of it, as Silva did at Hull. I don't think the perception is difficult to quantify. I just don't agree that British managers are unfairly overlooked. Successful managers of any nationality get their chance. When there was talk of Hughes going at the end of the season, I hoped to god Coates would look abroad, because there wasn't one single viable British option I wanted. We have to disagree. Dr Boer has won the Dutch league, like Steve McLaren and the bloke at Saints finished 9th on La Liga and was sacked by Valencia. I would suggest that the foreign factor seems to be as important as their achievements in football. De Boer could go either way but he's been appointed as much because of his youth policy as anything. It's reductive and unfair to think his passport is the only reason he's been appointed. Pellegrino took a small, newly promoted team to 9th and a cup final - the kind of thing you'd be lauding if it was Dyche or Hughton.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Jun 28, 2017 16:53:07 GMT
I accept all that and I'm not saying that British coaches are necessarily better than foreign coaches. It's the perception that they are that I question.
I've already given credit to Martinez for the FA Cup win, but in my opinion, he's not as good a manager as Dyche or Pulis.
The Moyes thing is back to perception.The guy found Seamus Coleman for £65,000. Tim Cahil, Phil Jagielka etc. He can see a player - so why were players unwilling to commit to Manchester United, one of the biggest clubs in the world at that time?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 28, 2017 17:43:47 GMT
I accept all that and I'm not saying that British coaches are necessarily better than foreign coaches. It's the perception that they are that I question. I've already given credit to Martinez for the FA Cup win, but in my opinion, he's not as good a manager as Dyche or Pulis. The Moyes thing is back to perception.The guy found Seamus Coleman for £65,000. Tim Cahil, Phil Jagielka etc. He can see a player - so why were players unwilling to commit to Manchester United, one of the biggest clubs in the world at that time? Because it's a different skillset? Because he'd got the job basically by being handpicked by his predecessor when not really qualified for the job? Because he never at any stage carried himself like a Manchester Utd manager? Because he set about making one calamitous decision after another, from making Rio Ferdinand watch videos of Phil Jagielka to paying £27m for Marouane Fellaini when his release clause was cheaper? Don't think Moyes is a great test case for the argument really, he was always going to be out of his depth.
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Post by leicspotter on Jun 28, 2017 17:55:07 GMT
Look at the finishing positions last season. The top 7 clubs all had foreign managers. I think the whole system of training youngsters is better in countries such as Holland, Spain and Portugal than it is in the U.K. We are wedded to old fashioned ways of doing things. I don't like the idea of identifying youngsters at an early age and the more or less controlling what sports they can try for the next 10 years. Most are spat out at 14 or 16 and told "you can't make the grade, son" when they could have done well in e.g rugby, hockey or athletics. Isn't there an element of "chicken & Egg" in this? The top 7 clubs all had a majority of non English players already (Arsenal excepted)before they appointed their current managers. How many of these, again with the exception of Arsenal, have been 'long serving'? I don't think all foreign managers have been a success, but it must be easier when you take over a top 6 club with mag money and loads of established Internationals. Even so, Chelsea have gone through a fair few bosses in the last 10 years, Man U have hardly been 'settled' since Fergie left. Surely the real proof will be how many English players these foreign managers bring through the development system in the next few years?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 28, 2017 18:07:41 GMT
In no way is it 'easier' to manage a big club. It's kiddy a different set of challenges. You have to manage egos of world class players, raised expectations of everyone around you and less patience as a result etc.
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