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Post by bathstoke on Aug 27, 2019 10:57:51 GMT
I think it must be compulsory for the UK to be in the EU. Either we are destined to fail with no friends OR we are too friendly with the worst bogey country on the planet, the USA. BUT as long as the EU have control we are fine.( It doesn't really matter that those who have that control do not have our interest at heart, and are democratically detached from us, remote and dictatorial ). If Maggie ( trigger) said this she was Indeed correct A monument to the vanity of intellectuals , perfectly described by the great lady Shocked, Stunned & Startled! Maggie took a swipe at intellectuals. Where have we heard of that sort of thing before đ¤
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Post by foster on Aug 27, 2019 11:21:30 GMT
A monument to the vanity of intellectuals , perfectly described by the great lady Shocked, Stunned & Startled! Maggie took a swipe at intellectuals. Where have we heard of that sort of thing before đ¤ Leaving the EU will probably have the same impact on our industries as Thatcher did. A massive negative one. Not really the best person to quote.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 27, 2019 11:53:48 GMT
I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.
Margaret Thatcher
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Post by foster on Aug 27, 2019 11:56:17 GMT
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Post by bathstoke on Aug 27, 2019 11:57:48 GMT
I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left. Margaret Thatcher Oh people, parties, nations & organisations had lots of political arguments against Margaret. She just wouldnât listen.
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Post by foster on Aug 27, 2019 12:00:54 GMT
I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left. Margaret Thatcher Oh people, parties, nations & organisations had lots of political arguments against Margaret. She just wouldnât listen. You should quote Thatcher mate. Apparently it's the same as posting a legitimate political argument.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 27, 2019 12:02:08 GMT
I did and it wasn't clear to me what, in that article, is the "common sense" you are referencing. Wanted to respond sarcastically but I just saw that the BBC changed the story for that link. The one I was referring to seems to have gone now. Anyway, it was Corbyn saying something like the UK will be at the mercy of the US after Brexit. Yeah - I also saw that article. It seemed a bit defeatist to me. Corbyn clearly thinks he will either never be in power to determine the terms of a trade agreement or he doubts his ability, were he to be in power, to agree decent terms. Wimp.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 27, 2019 12:03:20 GMT
Shocked, Stunned & Startled! Maggie took a swipe at intellectuals. Where have we heard of that sort of thing before đ¤ Leaving the EU will probably have the same impact on our industries as Thatcher did. A massive negative one. Not really the best person to quote. In fairness to Thatcher, our manufacturing industries were in serious difficulties before she came along.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 27, 2019 12:04:34 GMT
I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left. Margaret Thatcher Oh people, parties, nations & organisations had lots of political arguments against Margaret. She just wouldnât listen. Indeed. It says more about her than her opponents.
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Post by foster on Aug 27, 2019 12:13:07 GMT
Wanted to respond sarcastically but I just saw that the BBC changed the story for that link. The one I was referring to seems to have gone now. Anyway, it was Corbyn saying something like the UK will be at the mercy of the US after Brexit. Yeah - I also saw that article. It seemed a bit defeatist to me. Corbyn clearly thinks he will either never be in power to determine the terms of a trade agreement or he doubts his ability, were he to be in power, to agree decent terms. Wimp. Yeah Corbo seems to be saying anything at the moment to gather up support. Green, Animal rights, Free food, etc. Don't suppose he has much time left so he's throwing it all out there in a last ditch attempt to muster up support. Anyway.... do people still think Brexit will happen? What's the general concensus on here?
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Post by trickydicky73 on Aug 27, 2019 12:22:30 GMT
I don't. (In response to Foster's question).
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 27, 2019 12:51:18 GMT
Leaving the EU will probably have the same impact on our industries as Thatcher did. A massive negative one. Not really the best person to quote. In fairness to Thatcher, our manufacturing industries were in serious difficulties before she came along. The country was the sick man of Europe, chaos from top to bottom.
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Post by serpico on Aug 27, 2019 12:54:54 GMT
Yeah - I also saw that article. It seemed a bit defeatist to me. Corbyn clearly thinks he will either never be in power to determine the terms of a trade agreement or he doubts his ability, were he to be in power, to agree decent terms. Wimp. Yeah Corbo seems to be saying anything at the moment to gather up support. Green, Animal rights, Free food, etc. Don't suppose he has much time left so he's throwing it all out there in a last ditch attempt to muster up support. Anyway.... do people still think Brexit will happen? What's the general concensus on here? I think The Eu will relent on the backstop and Boris will basically reheat Mays WA and try and get it through parliament, it probably still wonât pass though because corbyn/labour donât want the brexit issue resolved before theres a general election, they want to use it as a reason for a general election.
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 27, 2019 12:57:39 GMT
Yeah - I also saw that article. It seemed a bit defeatist to me. Corbyn clearly thinks he will either never be in power to determine the terms of a trade agreement or he doubts his ability, were he to be in power, to agree decent terms. Wimp. Yeah Corbo seems to be saying anything at the moment to gather up support. Green, Animal rights, Free food, etc. Don't suppose he has much time left so he's throwing it all out there in a last ditch attempt to muster up support. Anyway.... do people still think Brexit will happen? What's the general concensus on here? We will know more next week when parliament resumes. Ironically if Corbyn seems to be gainin traction with his plans the EU will definitely not concede anything. Corbyn may cause a no deal Brexit
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 27, 2019 13:15:26 GMT
Conviction Politicians with very similar views on the EU ( except one is for turning).
How do we explain that?
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Post by trickydicky73 on Aug 27, 2019 13:18:07 GMT
Yeah Corbo seems to be saying anything at the moment to gather up support. Green, Animal rights, Free food, etc. Don't suppose he has much time left so he's throwing it all out there in a last ditch attempt to muster up support. Anyway.... do people still think Brexit will happen? What's the general concensus on here? We will know more next week when parliament resumes. Ironically if Corbyn seems to be gainin traction with his plans the EU will definitely not concede anything. Corbyn may cause a no deal Brexit If only these parties could have mustered so much energy trying to get some form of Brexit through. As someone said earlier, it's not about No Deal, it's about no Brexit. Thatâs why I am not buying the no deal rhetoric. We could have taken that approach from day one. Why has it taken 3 years?
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Post by serpico on Aug 27, 2019 13:20:28 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 27, 2019 13:59:32 GMT
He seems like he means what he says , Serpico. Very unusual for politicians. He's similar to Farage and Trump. (don't be naive đ¤)
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Post by Davef on Aug 27, 2019 14:46:47 GMT
Yeah Corbo seems to be saying anything at the moment to gather up support. Green, Animal rights, Free food, etc. Don't suppose he has much time left so he's throwing it all out there in a last ditch attempt to muster up support. Anyway.... do people still think Brexit will happen? What's the general concensus on here? I think The Eu will relent on the backstop and Boris will basically reheat Mays WA and try and get it through parliament, it probably still wonât pass though because corbyn/labour donât want the brexit issue resolved before theres a general election, they want to use it as a reason for a general election. What makes you think that the EU will relent on the Irish Backstop? They have repeatedly said they won't and they've repeatedly said that there will be no re-negotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement. Indeed, the Withdrawal Agreement is an actual EU treaty which has zero chance of being amended, even if they felt so inclined, before October 31st. It was approved by the EU, the 27 member states and the UK Government. It was put before Parliament three times and they rejected it every time.
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Post by serpico on Aug 27, 2019 14:58:00 GMT
I think The Eu will relent on the backstop and Boris will basically reheat Mays WA and try and get it through parliament, it probably still wonât pass though because corbyn/labour donât want the brexit issue resolved before theres a general election, they want to use it as a reason for a general election. What makes you think that the EU will relent on the Irish Backstop? They have repeatedly said they won't and they've repeatedly said that there will be no re-negotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement. Indeed, the Withdrawal Agreement is an actual EU treaty which has zero chance of being amended, even if they felt so inclined, before October 31st. It was approved by the EU, the 27 member states and the UK Government. It was put before Parliament three times and they rejected it every time. What they say and what they do are two different matters, of course theyâre going to play hardball in public. However, there does seem to have been a softening on the backstop issue the last few days, both Macron and Merkel have said they would consider alternatives, they havenât flatly rejected it.
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Post by smallthorner on Aug 27, 2019 14:59:28 GMT
I think The Eu will relent on the backstop and Boris will basically reheat Mays WA and try and get it through parliament, it probably still wonât pass though because corbyn/labour donât want the brexit issue resolved before theres a general election, they want to use it as a reason for a general election. What makes you think that the EU will relent on the Irish Backstop? They have repeatedly said they won't and they've repeatedly said that there will be no re-negotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement. Indeed, the Withdrawal Agreement is an actual EU treaty which has zero chance of being amended, even if they felt so inclined, before October 31st. It was approved by the EU, the 27 member states and the UK Government. It was put before Parliament three times and they rejected it every time. I think you will find that if it suits the EU...the EU will do what it wants. And I am a remainer.đ
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 27, 2019 15:13:11 GMT
I think The Eu will relent on the backstop and Boris will basically reheat Mays WA and try and get it through parliament, it probably still wonât pass though because corbyn/labour donât want the brexit issue resolved before theres a general election, they want to use it as a reason for a general election. What makes you think that the EU will relent on the Irish Backstop? They have repeatedly said they won't and they've repeatedly said that there will be no re-negotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement. Indeed, the Withdrawal Agreement is an actual EU treaty which has zero chance of being amended, even if they felt so inclined, before October 31st. It was approved by the EU, the 27 member states and the UK Government. It was put before Parliament three times and they rejected it every time. The whole isssue with the backstop is an EU solution for an EU problem . If we leave without a deal the EU will have to decide how to control the imports coming over the border into the single market. Why is it being portrayed as UK issue . Johnson has already said repeatedly no border from uk why is the integrity off the single market our problem .
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Post by smallthorner on Aug 27, 2019 15:38:57 GMT
What makes you think that the EU will relent on the Irish Backstop? They have repeatedly said they won't and they've repeatedly said that there will be no re-negotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement. Indeed, the Withdrawal Agreement is an actual EU treaty which has zero chance of being amended, even if they felt so inclined, before October 31st. It was approved by the EU, the 27 member states and the UK Government. It was put before Parliament three times and they rejected it every time. The whole isssue with the backstop is an EU solution for an EU problem . If we leave without a deal the EU will have to decide how to control the imports coming over the border into the single market. Why is it being portrayed as UK issue . Johnson has already said repeatedly no border from uk why is the integrity off the single market our problem . Get back to me in two years Harry on that question.
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Post by yeokel on Aug 27, 2019 16:00:53 GMT
So, Corbyn couldnât be arsed to attend the meeting earlier today of all the "opposition leaders" who are opposed to a âno deal Brexitâ. Trotskyite-in-chief John McDonnell attended in his stead. Did Jezza not go because, as we all know, he does actually support Brexit and is finding it increasingly difficult to hide this? Or, has he recognised that he, as we all suspect, is simply too thick to be involved in negotiations with other âleadersâ? Or has he recognised that he is on his way out? Or, is the ârealâ leader of the opposition now ready to play his hand? This reminds me greatly of the Liverpool City Council in the â80s when Hatton was running the show (and bankrupted Liverpool) but was hiding behind âthe leader of the councilâ whose name I canât even be bothered to look up. And the arch bishop of Canterbury seems to be getting involved now. (although a skim read of the Guardian seems to indicate that he might actually be a Brexiteer) Guardian Link
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 27, 2019 16:05:26 GMT
So, Corbyn couldnât be arsed to attend the meeting earlier today of all the "opposition leaders" who are opposed to a âno deal Brexitâ. Trotskyite-in-chief John McDonnell attended in his stead. Did Jezza not go because, as we all know, he does actually support Brexit and is finding it increasingly difficult to hide this? Or, has he recognised that he, as we all suspect, is simply too thick to be involved in negotiations with other âleadersâ? Or has he recognised that he is on his way out? Or, is the ârealâ leader of the opposition now ready to play his hand? This reminds me greatly of the Liverpool City Council in the â80s when Hatton was running the show (and bankrupted Liverpool) but was hiding behind âthe leader of the councilâ whose name I canât even be bothered to look up. And the arch bishop of Canterbury seems to be getting involved now. (although a skim read of the Guardian seems to indicate that he might actually be a Brexiteer) Guardian LinkWasn't he going for a break in Ghana or Congo
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 27, 2019 16:09:29 GMT
The whole isssue with the backstop is an EU solution for an EU problem . If we leave without a deal the EU will have to decide how to control the imports coming over the border into the single market. Why is it being portrayed as UK issue . Johnson has already said repeatedly no border from uk why is the integrity off the single market our problem . Get back to me in two years Harry on that question. I'm hoping for a simple solution to this , a stand still agreement for 2 years would be my choice whilst we get future trade deal sorted , but it won't happen though
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 27, 2019 16:11:52 GMT
Obviously there is a lot of politics going on at the moment ( you don't say... stating the obvious). Perhaps Johnson is making the condition that the backstop needs removing " knowing" that the EU won't....He is then able to say " I represented the UK, our position , it is the EU that has failed/ refused to negotiate... therefore we leave with no deal= EU's fault : Go to the country having achieved BREXIT. If they DO change their position on the backstop then he may be able to get it through Parliament ....in one sense Johnson may seem a winner : again Go to the country having achieved BREXIT......but the WA ( surrender treaty) is still unnacceptable to Brexiteers as BRINO.....so the election is less certain. Third scenario if the Leavers manage to prevent " no deal" he could go to the country , in my opinion in a very strong position, as the PM who has clearly tried to represent the UK , implement the referendum result and has been undermined by the anti democrats.......in some ways this could be the best outcome for democracy long term. Irrespective of whether you believe him , his past antics or the fact you may want to label him a bufoon.... Johnson since being PM has portrayed a belief in the UK, self belief, optimism and positivity..... easily dismissed, and may only be an illusion particularly for those looking and hoping for his failure. BUT can actually be crucial for success.
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Post by Miles Offside on Aug 27, 2019 16:15:23 GMT
Today's Times -
"Some diplomatic sources in Brussels have noted that the Irish backstop, to avoid a hard border in Ireland, is itself a protocol to the main withdrawal treaty allowing scope for revisions."
My understanding is that a protocol can be withdrawn without it affecting the original treaty. Or another protocol could be added, for example, setting a time limit to the backstop.
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Post by harryburrows on Aug 27, 2019 16:18:41 GMT
Obviously there is a lot of politics going on at the moment ( you don't say... stating the obvious). Perhaps Johnson is making the condition that the backstop needs removing " knowing" that the EU won't....He is then able to say " I represented the UK, our position , it is the EU that has failed/ refused to negotiate... therefore we leave with no deal= EU's fault : Go to the country having achieved BREXIT. If they DO change their position on the backstop then he may be able to get it through Parliament ....in one sense Johnson may seem a winner : again Go to the country having achieved BREXIT......but the WA ( surrender treaty) is still unnacceptable to Brexiteers as BRINO.....so the election is less certain. Third scenario if the Leavers manage to prevent " no deal" he could go to the country , in my opinion in a very strong position, as the PM who has clearly tried to represent the UK , implement the referendum result and has been undermined by the anti democrats.......in some ways this could be the best outcome for democracy long term. Irrespective of whether you believe him , his past antics or the fact you may want to label him a bufoon.... Johnson since being PM has portrayed a belief in the UK, self belief, optimism and positivity..... easily dismissed, and may only be an illusion particularly for those looking and hoping for his failure. BUT can actually be crucial for success. Any withdrawal treaty must be time limited to have any hope of getting it past the commons
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 27, 2019 16:28:51 GMT
Today's Times -
"Some diplomatic sources in Brussels have noted that the Irish backstop, to avoid a hard border in Ireland, is itself a protocol to the main withdrawal treaty allowing scope for revisions."
My understanding is that a protocol can be withdrawn without it affecting the original treaty. Or another protocol could be added, for example, setting a time limit to the backstop. May happen Miles in my opinion. I hope it doesn't because the WA is still unnacceptable without the backstop.
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