|
Post by trickydicky73 on May 28, 2019 9:46:16 GMT
It’s no real surprise that the two main parties have shunted towards the extremities of the issue really. Come on Sheiky, you have to be disappointed with Corbyn over this? He could have stood up to the likes of Watson and Owen Smith, but he bottled it. The only thing he hasn't said is he will campaign for Remain!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 9:47:38 GMT
Hoodwinked is exactly right. How do you know that leavers were hoodwinked into voting Brexit. That’s just more made up bollox perpetuated by the Remainers. I have many friends who have wanted out of the EU well before the referendum. My mind was made up after the amended Maastricht/Lisbon Treaty referendum fiasco. Just a reminder of that .......in 2007 some EU countries decided to hold referendums on the Maastricht Treaty replacement aka Treaty of the European Union. Holland and France overwhelmingly voted against it and Ireland held 2 referendums in an attempt to get it "right". U.K. was meant to have a referendum but this was abandoned by Blair. The EU simply renamed the TEU, with a few amendments, called it the Lisbon Treaty and it entered EU Legislation without referendum because they were shit scared that it would be voted down again. Spot on Lawrie !
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on May 28, 2019 9:57:50 GMT
Hoodwinked is exactly right. How do you know that leavers were hoodwinked into voting Brexit. That’s just more made up bollox perpetuated by the Remainers. I have many friends who have wanted out of the EU well before the referendum. My mind was made up after the amended Maastricht/Lisbon Treaty referendum fiasco. Just a reminder of that .......in 2007 some EU countries decided to hold referendums on the Maastricht Treaty replacement aka Treaty of the European Union. Holland and France overwhelmingly voted against it and Ireland held 2 referendums in an attempt to get it "right". U.K. was meant to have a referendum but this was abandoned by Blair. The EU simply renamed the TEU, with a few amendments, called it the Lisbon Treaty and it entered EU Legislation without referendum because they were shit scared that it would be voted down again. Similarly people like John Redwood have argued the case for 20 years, not just since the Referendum. In my opinion he asks the right questions here......its not about " would you leave on October 31st without a deal?" as important as that is..... more important is his first question
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on May 28, 2019 10:46:29 GMT
If the tories just secure Brexit they are back in business. Labour won’t be trusted to make it work I think the Tories have some other issues as well mate , they have done a lot of damage in middle England with the cuts to public services, bus services , council tax utility bills , property prices, business rates , health service spending, social care funding , schools , libraries, post offices public sector workers haven't seen a pay increase for 10 years , the list is endless and I believe is affecting everyone . This needs to change before another election . We saw last time out how effective labours magic money tree was . Tax cuts aren't going to help Ask yourself Harry why that is. Things have to be paid for and the last Labour government left power with the economy in the worst state than at any time since Callaghan's 3 day week. Granted Blair and Brown were not totally to blame, but their policy of relaxing control of banks and allowing reckless lending and borrowing was a major contributor. I did not vote Tory but the Tory government had to introduce strict austerity to recover control of the nation's finances. As always the people at the bottom of society have suffered at the expense of those at the top like Blair and Brown who stood by and let the banks go crazy. Austerity has worked and we have the highest employment in history and the lowest unemployment for over 40 years. It is time to release more government spending, which the Chancellor is able to do, but not until Brexit is resolved. If we leave the EU the Chancellor will have to support business, farming, and the regions adversely affected. If we stay in the EU the Chancellor will be forced the hand over huge sums to the EU as we are certain to lose the rebate and our EU net contribution will rise to well over £10 billion pa.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 11:05:53 GMT
I think the Tories have some other issues as well mate , they have done a lot of damage in middle England with the cuts to public services, bus services , council tax utility bills , property prices, business rates , health service spending, social care funding , schools , libraries, post offices public sector workers haven't seen a pay increase for 10 years , the list is endless and I believe is affecting everyone . This needs to change before another election . We saw last time out how effective labours magic money tree was . Tax cuts aren't going to help Ask yourself Harry why that is. Things have to be paid for and the last Labour government left power with the economy in the worst state than at any time since Callaghan's 3 day week. Granted Blair and Brown were not totally to blame, but their policy of relaxing control of banks and allowing reckless lending and borrowing was a major contributor. I did not vote Tory but the Tory government had to introduce strict austerity to recover control of the nation's finances. As always the people at the bottom of society have suffered at the expense of those at the top like Blair and Brown who stood by and let the banks go crazy. Austerity has worked and we have the highest employment in history and the lowest unemployment for over 40 years. It is time to release more government spending, which the Chancellor is able to do, but not until Brexit is resolved. If we leave the EU the Chancellor will have to support business, farming, and the regions adversely affected. If we stay in the EU the Chancellor will be forced the hand over huge sums to the EU as we are certain to lose the rebate and our EU net contribution will rise to well over £10 billion pa. It amazes me how the success or failure of a country's economy is measured purely by its GDP growth. What about the human cost to austerity, rising homelessness, people forced to use food banks despite being in work due to Universal credit catastrophes, disabled people being forced into an early grave by the governments cruel bedroom tax policies and cuts in benefits from people clearly not fit to work, mental health issues on the rise, no libraries or youth clubs to keep our kids occupied and out of the grasp of gangs wielding knives? Austerity in it's current format absolutely did not need to happen, borrowing could have been reduced at a slower rate, but the government made a clear decision to offload the country's debt burden on those who could least afford it. And ironically we will pay for this in years to come as a consequence of those issues mentioned above. It's a complete false economy, don't mix up Tory ideology with economic necessity........
|
|
|
Post by Absolution on May 28, 2019 11:07:56 GMT
I thought it was a very disparaging and disrespectful comment tbh. Well, the elderly seem to be fair game, lately, so anything goes..... The disparaging of the elderly for daring to still be alive has been the nastiest and most disgusting trait of 'some' remainers. It says everything about the broadcast media that there's been no attempt to shut it down. Sometimes I'm really glad my dad's not here to see what became of the country he fought for. Bastards.
|
|
|
Post by harryburrows on May 28, 2019 11:09:46 GMT
I think the Tories have some other issues as well mate , they have done a lot of damage in middle England with the cuts to public services, bus services , council tax utility bills , property prices, business rates , health service spending, social care funding , schools , libraries, post offices public sector workers haven't seen a pay increase for 10 years , the list is endless and I believe is affecting everyone . This needs to change before another election . We saw last time out how effective labours magic money tree was . Tax cuts aren't going to help Ask yourself Harry why that is. Things have to be paid for and the last Labour government left power with the economy in the worst state than at any time since Callaghan's 3 day week. Granted Blair and Brown were not totally to blame, but their policy of relaxing control of banks and allowing reckless lending and borrowing was a major contributor. I did not vote Tory but the Tory government had to introduce strict austerity to recover control of the nation's finances. As always the people at the bottom of society have suffered at the expense of those at the top like Blair and Brown who stood by and let the banks go crazy. Austerity has worked and we have the highest employment in history and the lowest unemployment for over 40 years. It is time to release more government spending, which the Chancellor is able to do, but not until Brexit is resolved. If we leave the EU the Chancellor will have to support business, farming, and the regions adversely affected. If we stay in the EU the Chancellor will be forced the hand over huge sums to the EU as we are certain to lose the rebate and our EU net contribution will rise to well over £10 billion pa. I agree absolutely we need to live within our means , what I'm talking about is a fundamental change in the way people live and the quality of life for millions of working people. Funding of Basic services is not something that government should be cutting
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on May 28, 2019 11:11:46 GMT
Should be interesting if labour go into the Peterborough bi election as a second referendum / remain party If people think that the shit has hit the fan they haven’t seen nothing yet if the brexit Party win Peterborough Ahead of the Peterborough by-election (there was a 60.8% Leave vote in the 2016 referendum) the Brexit Party won the EU elections with 38.3% of the vote. Labour was second on 17.2%, with the LibDems on 15.4% in third, and the Tories a distant fourth on 10.9%. In the 2017 general election Labour won in Peterborough for the first time and had a majority of 607 votes. Vote share Labour 48.1 % Cons 46.8 % LibDem 3.3 % Green 1.8 % Should be interesting to see what happens this time. Just out of interest Peterborough has had several labour MPs over the years Apart from the convict In the early Blair years helen Clarke won the seat for labour bit of a piss head bless her Sold her the odd drink or two Lost the seat 2006 but you are right it has always been predominantly Tory though at times with a wafer thin majority
|
|
|
Post by Davef on May 28, 2019 11:23:53 GMT
How do you know that leavers were hoodwinked into voting Brexit. That’s just more made up bollox perpetuated by the Remainers. I have many friends who have wanted out of the EU well before the referendum. My mind was made up after the amended Maastricht/Lisbon Treaty referendum fiasco. Just a reminder of that .......in 2007 some EU countries decided to hold referendums on the Maastricht Treaty replacement aka Treaty of the European Union. Holland and France overwhelmingly voted against it and Ireland held 2 referendums in an attempt to get it "right". U.K. was meant to have a referendum but this was abandoned by Blair. The EU simply renamed the TEU, with a few amendments, called it the Lisbon Treaty and it entered EU Legislation without referendum because they were shit scared that it would be voted down again. Similarly people like John Redwood have argued the case for 20 years, not just since the Referendum. In my opinion he asks the right questions here......its not about " would you leave on October 31st without a deal?" as important as that is..... more important is his first question We'd be out of the EU now had Redwood and his cohorts not voted against the WA.
|
|
|
Post by franklin66 on May 28, 2019 11:39:25 GMT
Labour's stance on Brexit is 100% selfish self centred greed of the worse kind. They have plenty of leave constituencies but are manoeuvring to bring chaos and a GE. They are and quite rightly a leave party but are betraying their beliefs for a chance of a Labour government. They are putting their personal gain above democracy in a power grab. I don't mind opposing parties debating but to outright lie and frustrate Brexit to destroy the Tories is pathetic. They are playing a dangerous game which I believe they have misjudged and they will pay in any GE. The Tories have messed things up but Labour are just pure filth with their blatant blocking of Brexit not for moral reasons but for gain. Corbyn is a leave man they have a lot of leave MP'S yet they won't back anything. I will never vote for them again the traitorous greedy wankers.
|
|
|
Post by trickydicky73 on May 28, 2019 11:41:14 GMT
Similarly people like John Redwood have argued the case for 20 years, not just since the Referendum. In my opinion he asks the right questions here......its not about " would you leave on October 31st without a deal?" as important as that is..... more important is his first question We'd be out of the EU now had Redwood and his cohorts not voted against the WA. Too many red lines....
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on May 28, 2019 11:44:35 GMT
It’s no real surprise that the two main parties have shunted towards the extremities of the issue really. I do think that they have lost their way a bit on it though Sheikh. For me their messages are totally confusing, different members are saying different things and as we speak they are themselves yet again talking about changing the policy or making it clearer. It is the big issue for both parties but more importantly the country, neither has the courage to take a grip and go for proper BREXIT as voted for. The LibDems and the BREXIT party have done well because they are clear. Personally I have a dislike of the LibDems....but Labour need to be very careful that they don't usurp their place as one of the mainstream parties ( and in normal times I don't like saying that... but I feel that Labour have left their traditional working class behind particularly in the Northern heartlands) Maybe we are seeing history repeat itself in reverse? It is just 100 years since the demise of the Liberal Party which was split by the fighting between Lloyd George and Asquith, which saw the end of the great reforming Liberal governments that brought in Britain's social welfare system including medical insurance, unemployment insurance, and old-age pensions. They were replaced by the rise of the Labour Party and condemned to obscurity by being squeezed out by reforming Labour, who spoilt the economy, and the Tories who rebuilt the economy at the expense of the less well off and disadvantaged. Could Brexit split the Labour support between the working class and highbrow lefties? I can see many of the Labour supporters who are not socialist deserting to the Greens, if Labour don't go down the Remain route. The Labour leadership will assume the working class will still keep voting for them as long as the have the title "Labour". I think there is a risk that the working class vote could be split 3 ways between Labour, Brexit, and Greens. Support for the Greens has been low, but there is no doubt these European elections have given them some credibility. If they can establish a platform, then I could imagine a lot of young disaffected people deserting the old traditional parties. One thing that is changing is people are far more prepared to change their allegiance these days. Despite the BBC, Channel 4 News, etc. they are far better informed and social media has widened horizons. Party leaders need to be careful of how they tread. Even in the 70s Heath and Callaghan lost power because they stood up to the unions/left wing. People didn't vote so much to oppose Heath and Callaghan, more that they did not like conflict and confrontation. There are many people passionate about leaving the EU and many passionate about staying in, but the silent majority generally want a quiet time and just get on with their lives. Only halve the electorate chose to vote. A normal general election turnout could see a quite different result, with more people turning out to vote for their usual party, or converesely saying enough is enough and voting for one of the rising parties.
|
|
|
Post by henry on May 28, 2019 11:47:11 GMT
Similarly people like John Redwood have argued the case for 20 years, not just since the Referendum. In my opinion he asks the right questions here......its not about " would you leave on October 31st without a deal?" as important as that is..... more important is his first question We'd be out of the EU now had Redwood and his cohorts not voted against the WA. Maybe it was his concern of parts of the WA keeping us tied in to EU rules till 2028
|
|
|
Post by trickydicky73 on May 28, 2019 11:52:20 GMT
Labour's stance on Brexit is 100% selfish self centred greed of the worse kind. They have plenty of leave constituencies but are manoeuvring to bring chaos and a GE. They are and quite rightly a leave party but are betraying their beliefs for a chance of a Labour government. They are putting their personal gain above democracy in a power grab. I don't mind opposing parties debating but to outright lie and frustrate Brexit to destroy the Tories is pathetic. They are playing a dangerous game which I believe they have misjudged and they will pay in any GE. The Tories have messed things up but Labour are just pure filth with their blatant blocking of Brexit not for moral reasons but for gain. Corbyn is a leave man they have a lot of leave MP'S yet they won't back anything. I will never vote for them again the traitorous greedy wankers. I agree. I also think that they have misread the EU election results. The Brexit Party stormed the elections, but some in Labour have concentrated more on the performance of the LibDems, and decided on a second referendum /Remain strategy. Based on what, a 36% turnout, where many Brexit voters wouldn't have thought their vote would matter? It's crazy, and I think Lisa Nandy has weighed it up correctly. How close do you think the 2017 election would have been if Labour had not promised to honour Brexit? I bet they wouldn't have nearly closed a twenty point gap. If Labour goes the Remain route after saying that they wouldn't, they deserve to be smashed at any future election.
|
|
|
Post by trickydicky73 on May 28, 2019 11:57:12 GMT
We'd be out of the EU now had Redwood and his cohorts not voted against the WA. Maybe it was his concern of parts of the WA keeping us tied in to EU rules till 2028 And Labour shared those concerns. Worse, they wanted to stay in the Customs Union, which wouldn't be Brexit at all.
|
|
|
Post by henry on May 28, 2019 12:05:34 GMT
Maybe it was his concern of parts of the WA keeping us tied in to EU rules till 2028 And Labour shared those concerns. Worse, they wanted to stay in the Customs Union, which wouldn't be Brexit at all. Yeh, it really does show the level of fucktardiness in the HoC.
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on May 28, 2019 12:21:40 GMT
Ask yourself Harry why that is. Things have to be paid for and the last Labour government left power with the economy in the worst state than at any time since Callaghan's 3 day week. Granted Blair and Brown were not totally to blame, but their policy of relaxing control of banks and allowing reckless lending and borrowing was a major contributor. I did not vote Tory but the Tory government had to introduce strict austerity to recover control of the nation's finances. As always the people at the bottom of society have suffered at the expense of those at the top like Blair and Brown who stood by and let the banks go crazy. Austerity has worked and we have the highest employment in history and the lowest unemployment for over 40 years. It is time to release more government spending, which the Chancellor is able to do, but not until Brexit is resolved. If we leave the EU the Chancellor will have to support business, farming, and the regions adversely affected. If we stay in the EU the Chancellor will be forced the hand over huge sums to the EU as we are certain to lose the rebate and our EU net contribution will rise to well over £10 billion pa. It amazes me how the success or failure of a country's economy is measured purely by its GDP growth. What about the human cost to austerity, rising homelessness, people forced to use food banks despite being in work due to Universal credit catastrophes, disabled people being forced into an early grave by the governments cruel bedroom tax policies and cuts in benefits from people clearly not fit to work, mental health issues on the rise, no libraries or youth clubs to keep our kids occupied and out of the grasp of gangs wielding knives? Austerity in it's current format absolutely did not need to happen, borrowing could have been reduced at a slower rate, but the government made a clear decision to offload the country's debt burden on those who could least afford it. And ironically we will pay for this in years to come as a consequence of those issues mentioned above. It's a complete false economy, don't mix up Tory ideology with economic necessity........ I totally sympathize with your view and we as a society should do more to give to charities and do volunteer work. The fact of life is that to support the measures you feel are being neglected any government has to have a healthy economy to raise the revenue. You cannot run a country with the economy in turmoil. Government borrowing has not been reduced. The reality is that government borrowing is still increasing, albeit increasing at a slower rate. But had borrowing continued to increase at the rate it was in 2008 - 2010, the UK economy would have collapsed liked the Greek economy. Please look at the graph on the link attached; the rise in government borrowing was out of control and something had to be done to cut spending. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_national_debtPublic spending in the United Kingdom has steadily increased from over £200 billion in 1990 to over £700 billion today UK public spending hit £200 billion in 1990 and £284 billion by 1995. Increases in public spending were modest in the late 1990s, reaching £338 billion in 2000. The early 2000s showed an acceleration in spending, breaching £500 billion in 2006. Then the financial crisis of 2008 took over, boosting public spending over £600 billion in 2009. Increases in public spending have moderated in the 2010s, but spending is expected to breach £800 billion in 2018.
The more government spending increases relative to taxes, the more government has to spend on paying interest, which leaves less for service. We are still paying for the huge increase in spending in the Blair/Brown years and the debt created by the banking crisis. We are some years away from getting government spending into balance with revenue, if indeed we ever do, but there is an opportunity to spend more than has been the case.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on May 28, 2019 12:55:16 GMT
Similarly people like John Redwood have argued the case for 20 years, not just since the Referendum. In my opinion he asks the right questions here......its not about " would you leave on October 31st without a deal?" as important as that is..... more important is his first question We'd be out of the EU now had Redwood and his cohorts not voted against the WA. Depends if you believe that the WA=Brexit
|
|
|
Post by Davef on May 28, 2019 12:57:00 GMT
We'd be out of the EU now had Redwood and his cohorts not voted against the WA. Depends if you believe that the WA=Brexit Well if MP's had passed it through, the UK wouldn't be a member of the EU any more. So that's Brexit.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on May 28, 2019 13:05:23 GMT
Depends if you believe that the WA=Brexit Well if MP's had passed it through, the UK wouldn't be a member of the EU any more. So that's Brexit.
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on May 28, 2019 13:08:45 GMT
Despite the predicted gloom this country is doing well. Better than lots of other Eu countries and nowhere near as the Armageddon we were promised.
So why do parliament want us to stay
I don’t believe they are all in some secret society. They don’t go to itv tell Tracey brabin all their secrets and get her elected as an mp
I just don’t understand what’s in it for them to stay
|
|
|
Post by sheikhmomo on May 28, 2019 14:16:04 GMT
It’s no real surprise that the two main parties have shunted towards the extremities of the issue really. Come on Sheiky, you have to be disappointed with Corbyn over this? He could have stood up to the likes of Watson and Owen Smith, but he bottled it. The only thing he hasn't said is he will campaign for Remain! The 'constructive ambiguity' actually had some merit in the early days. What was it Napoleon said, 'never interrupt your enemy when they're fucking it up so badly'! To try and continue that as actual policy though was pure negligence. Both parties are in the same boat, in attempt maintain party union and please everyone they've alienated the very people they need to hold power, the voters.
|
|
|
Post by starkiller on May 28, 2019 15:43:18 GMT
Check out @leaveeuofficial’s Tweet:
|
|
|
Post by sheikhmomo on May 28, 2019 16:12:56 GMT
|
|
|
Post by trickydicky73 on May 28, 2019 16:35:10 GMT
Depends if you believe that the WA=Brexit Well if MP's had passed it through, the UK wouldn't be a member of the EU any more. So that's Brexit. So why didn't Jezza support it, then?
|
|
|
Post by trickydicky73 on May 28, 2019 16:37:51 GMT
Apparently, your pick for PM has flip flopped on no deal, Sheiky. Used to say we would manage, now it's the end of the world!
|
|
|
Post by sheikhmomo on May 28, 2019 16:40:27 GMT
Apparently, your pick for PM has flip flopped on no deal, Sheiky. Used to say we would manage, now it's the end of the world! Makes him more likely to get the vote of the selectorate in my view and totally eliminates him from winning with the actual electorate!
|
|
|
Post by thevoid on May 28, 2019 16:45:27 GMT
|
|
|
Post by trickydicky73 on May 28, 2019 17:16:51 GMT
Apparently, your pick for PM has flip flopped on no deal, Sheiky. Used to say we would manage, now it's the end of the world! Makes him more likely to get the vote of the selectorate in my view and totally eliminates him from winning with the actual electorate! Nigel agrees with you!😂
|
|
|
Post by harryburrows on May 28, 2019 17:19:54 GMT
Despite the predicted gloom this country is doing well. Better than lots of other Eu countries and nowhere near as the Armageddon we were promised. So why do parliament want us to stay I don’t believe they are all in some secret society. They don’t go to itv tell Tracey brabin all their secrets and get her elected as an mp I just don’t understand what’s in it for them to stay Listening to Dominic grieve on the radio saying for the sake of democracy a second referendum is essential, he went on to say if the country voted to leave a second time he would whole heartedly support the result to leave . This is why we are in such a mess . Labours strategy all along has little or nothing to do with Brexit . For labour it's all about forcing another general election
|
|