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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 14, 2019 13:06:04 GMT
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Post by trickydicky73 on Feb 14, 2019 13:19:41 GMT
It was on the other side.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Feb 14, 2019 13:33:17 GMT
Listening to Keir Starmer at the moment, and I am more sure than ever that the only deal he and Labour will accept is a BRINO that continues Free Movement Of People, a massive reason for Labour constituences like Stoke voted out!
If only he was so obsessed with addressing that and not No Deal. Immigration is barely getting a mention in the whole debate, yet its a a huge concern for many people.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2019 13:50:27 GMT
Listening to Keir Starmer at the moment, and I am more sure than ever that the only deal he and Labour will accept is a BRINO that continues Free Movement Of People, a massive reason for Labour constituences like Stoke voted out! If only he was so obsessed with addressing that and not No Deal. Immigration is barely getting a mention in the whole debate, yet its a a huge concern for many people. I agree Tricky - they all seem to be (conveniently) totally out of touch with just why many people did vote remain. They're all just discussing Deal or No Deal, and now the revoking and/or extending of Article 50.
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Post by yeokel on Feb 14, 2019 13:55:33 GMT
As is your usual way, you are misleadingly misquoting something completely out of context. The article says that GDP is down by about 2% which is where the figure of £800m comes from – It is nothing to do with “administering Brexit”. Nothing to do with it at all. Go away and read the article and then stop kidding yourself and lying to this board. Now, if you take a story from the Telegraph which runs along similar lines, it fully acknowledges the downturn in investment and GDP, but makes the case that the EU is suffering from even worse figures than is the UK. “ Of course, the UK has underperformed these past two years; and yes, Brexit uncertainty, compounded by the Government’s incompetence, was one important reason. Yet this brief period of EU overperformance is ending. Eurozone industrial production was down a calamitous 4.2 per cent, year on-year in December, led by a 6.7 per cent collapse in Spain, 5.5 per cent in Italy and 3.9 per cent in Germany. French industry’s crisis was less pronounced at minus 1.7 per cent; Britain did slightly better again, by shrinking only 1.2 per cent. How is any of this possible given that leaving the EU, we are told, is the only explanation for any and all bad economic news? I’m being facetious, of course: China’s downturn, dearer money in the eurozone and America, a general turning of the cycle after years of expansion, as well as some jitters about Brexit, all help explain the looming euro-recession. Yet listening to Remain propaganda, the EU ought to have discovered the secret to perpetual growth by now. The reality is, it is still the weakest link in the developed world, a precarious, unsustainable, stagnant construct, its cultural and geopolitical power drained by its inability to grow its economy. No wonder Brexiteers just don’t accept leaving will make us permanently worse off. The two big economic experiments that underpin European integration have failed spectacularly” I suppose it just depends on whose figures you believe and whose interpretation of those figures. The eurozone’s coming recession will confirm Brexiteers’ warnings
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Post by Clayton Wood on Feb 14, 2019 14:40:12 GMT
Got my ebook VAT answer yet Og? Thought it'd be top of the list of reasons you voted to stay in.
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 14, 2019 15:54:31 GMT
Got my ebook VAT answer yet Og? Thought it'd be top of the list of reasons you voted to stay in. Not my area of expertise. Are you suggesting being able to not charge VAT on ebooks is worth £800m a week?
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 14, 2019 15:57:08 GMT
As is your usual way, you are misleadingly misquoting something completely out of context. The article says that GDP is down by about 2% which is where the figure of £800m comes from – It is nothing to do with “administering Brexit”. Nothing to do with it at all. Go away and read the article and then stop kidding yourself and lying to this board. Now, if you take a story from the Telegraph which runs along similar lines, it fully acknowledges the downturn in investment and GDP, but makes the case that the EU is suffering from even worse figures than is the UK. “ Of course, the UK has underperformed these past two years; and yes, Brexit uncertainty, compounded by the Government’s incompetence, was one important reason. Yet this brief period of EU overperformance is ending. Eurozone industrial production was down a calamitous 4.2 per cent, year on-year in December, led by a 6.7 per cent collapse in Spain, 5.5 per cent in Italy and 3.9 per cent in Germany. French industry’s crisis was less pronounced at minus 1.7 per cent; Britain did slightly better again, by shrinking only 1.2 per cent. How is any of this possible given that leaving the EU, we are told, is the only explanation for any and all bad economic news? I’m being facetious, of course: China’s downturn, dearer money in the eurozone and America, a general turning of the cycle after years of expansion, as well as some jitters about Brexit, all help explain the looming euro-recession. Yet listening to Remain propaganda, the EU ought to have discovered the secret to perpetual growth by now. The reality is, it is still the weakest link in the developed world, a precarious, unsustainable, stagnant construct, its cultural and geopolitical power drained by its inability to grow its economy. No wonder Brexiteers just don’t accept leaving will make us permanently worse off. The two big economic experiments that underpin European integration have failed spectacularly” I suppose it just depends on whose figures you believe and whose interpretation of those figures. The eurozone’s coming recession will confirm Brexiteers’ warningsBut we are not in the eurozone. And our poor economic performance is down to Brexit. I know any bad word about brexit is dismissed as project fear, but i am just quoting an article that brexit is costing us far, far more than we spend on membership each week. And we haven’t even left yet so the real economic impact is yet to hit is.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Feb 14, 2019 16:14:13 GMT
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Post by Clayton Wood on Feb 14, 2019 16:31:35 GMT
We are at a impasse in parliament due to MPs not enacting there manifesto pledge to leave the Eu Remain MPs have made every attempt to delay brexit by trying to get another referendum which obviously you’re against as you don’t like referendums 17.4 million people knew what they wanted they wanted to leave the Eu And as I reside in an area that voted 68% leave I haven’t met a leave voter yet that wants a customs union or a single market 400 gutless MPs are on notice no meaning full brexit and 17 .4 million people will hold them to account So can you explain what you voted for in terms of replacing the EU maintenance Regulation, the Brussels 2 Regulations on jurisdiction and the reciprocal enforcement agreements. I am literally on my way to a talk by a Barrister on where we are left with this in my area of work and I would be interested to know what all you leave voters (who knew what you voted for) had to say about these types of issues. Got my ebook VAT answer yet Og? Thought it'd be top of the list of reasons you voted to stay in. Not my area of expertise. Are you suggesting being able to not charge VAT on ebooks is worth £800m a week? Just like the 99.999% of people on here have no idea about your pet subjects. What you did is called 'argument by authority', where reliance on specialist knowledge of a (unrelated) subject is used to back a position knowing that the audience does not have the expertise to countermand the assertion(s). My question is playing Devil's advocate, though there is an answer to it. But it's not for here and now.
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Post by yeokel on Feb 14, 2019 16:39:23 GMT
As is your usual way, you are misleadingly misquoting something completely out of context. The article says that GDP is down by about 2% which is where the figure of £800m comes from – It is nothing to do with “administering Brexit”. Nothing to do with it at all. Go away and read the article and then stop kidding yourself and lying to this board. Now, if you take a story from the Telegraph which runs along similar lines, it fully acknowledges the downturn in investment and GDP, but makes the case that the EU is suffering from even worse figures than is the UK. “ Of course, the UK has underperformed these past two years; and yes, Brexit uncertainty, compounded by the Government’s incompetence, was one important reason. Yet this brief period of EU overperformance is ending. Eurozone industrial production was down a calamitous 4.2 per cent, year on-year in December, led by a 6.7 per cent collapse in Spain, 5.5 per cent in Italy and 3.9 per cent in Germany. French industry’s crisis was less pronounced at minus 1.7 per cent; Britain did slightly better again, by shrinking only 1.2 per cent. How is any of this possible given that leaving the EU, we are told, is the only explanation for any and all bad economic news? I’m being facetious, of course: China’s downturn, dearer money in the eurozone and America, a general turning of the cycle after years of expansion, as well as some jitters about Brexit, all help explain the looming euro-recession. Yet listening to Remain propaganda, the EU ought to have discovered the secret to perpetual growth by now. The reality is, it is still the weakest link in the developed world, a precarious, unsustainable, stagnant construct, its cultural and geopolitical power drained by its inability to grow its economy. No wonder Brexiteers just don’t accept leaving will make us permanently worse off. The two big economic experiments that underpin European integration have failed spectacularly” I suppose it just depends on whose figures you believe and whose interpretation of those figures. The eurozone’s coming recession will confirm Brexiteers’ warningsBut we are not in the eurozone. And our poor economic performance is down to Brexit. I know any bad word about brexit is dismissed as project fear, but i am just quoting an article that brexit is costing us far, far more than we spend on membership each week. And we haven’t even left yet so the real economic impact is yet to hit is. You weren’t quoting though, were you? You were distorting. You were taking one figure (the reported drop in GDP) and saying it was something else (the cost of administering Brexit). “ Gertjan Vlieghe, a member of the Bank’s monetary policy committee, said that since the vote in June 2016, the economy had lost about 2% of GDP ” That's from your Guardian report. And, which ever way you want to look at it, much of the Eurozone (all of which is within the EU) has recently done a lot worse than the UK has. “ And our poor economic performance is down to Brexit.” Yeah, if you say so
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Post by trickydicky73 on Feb 14, 2019 17:47:19 GMT
Parliament still trying to scupper Brexit, I see? Another day, another amendment. The latest one undermining our hand against the EU (by design).
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 14, 2019 18:08:45 GMT
So can you explain what you voted for in terms of replacing the EU maintenance Regulation, the Brussels 2 Regulations on jurisdiction and the reciprocal enforcement agreements. I am literally on my way to a talk by a Barrister on where we are left with this in my area of work and I would be interested to know what all you leave voters (who knew what you voted for) had to say about these types of issues. Not my area of expertise. Are you suggesting being able to not charge VAT on ebooks is worth £800m a week? Just like the 99.999% of people on here have no idea about your pet subjects. What you did is called 'argument by authority', where reliance on specialist knowledge of a (unrelated) subject is used to back a position knowing that the audience does not have the expertise to countermand the assertion(s). My question is playing Devil's advocate, though there is an answer to it. But it's not for here and now. The difference between leave and remain is that remain voted for what we already have. Leave were voting for something different but can’t say what. Don’t you see the gigantic difference? Unless you will admit the leave vote was just a vote against something and not for anything, and that’s exactly why we are in this mess now when it is clear that we need direction on what people actually want now. Going back to your VAT point though, you know ours is higher than it needs to be under EU law? So even if we could get rid of it entirely, we won’t as ours is set higher already. Also my some of my so called ‘pet projects’ apply to every single contract made in the Eu, so every single thing you buy as a person or a business. It also applies to all tortious claims. Hardly a pet project!!! More like an absolutely critical detail to resolve disputes between people and businesses that are not criminal.
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 14, 2019 18:15:28 GMT
But we are not in the eurozone. And our poor economic performance is down to Brexit. I know any bad word about brexit is dismissed as project fear, but i am just quoting an article that brexit is costing us far, far more than we spend on membership each week. And we haven’t even left yet so the real economic impact is yet to hit is. You weren’t quoting though, were you? You were distorting. You were taking one figure (the reported drop in GDP) and saying it was something else (the cost of administering Brexit). “ Gertjan Vlieghe, a member of the Bank’s monetary policy committee, said that since the vote in June 2016, the economy had lost about 2% of GDP ” That's from your Guardian report. And, which ever way you want to look at it, much of the Eurozone (all of which is within the EU) has recently done a lot worse than the UK has. “ And our poor economic performance is down to Brexit.” Yeah, if you say so I quoted the tagline description. So the day after the brexit vote and the dramatic drop in the value of the pound was caused by what if not brexit? What about the manufacturering recession we are now in? Nothing whatsoever to do with brexit? What about the increased cost of living? Nothing to do with brexit? What about the uncertainty in business at the moment? What could businesses possibly be uncertain about at the moment? It couldn’t be anything to do with brexit!?
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Post by lawrieleslie on Feb 14, 2019 18:26:53 GMT
Just like the 99.999% of people on here have no idea about your pet subjects. What you did is called 'argument by authority', where reliance on specialist knowledge of a (unrelated) subject is used to back a position knowing that the audience does not have the expertise to countermand the assertion(s). My question is playing Devil's advocate, though there is an answer to it. But it's not for here and now. The difference between leave and remain is that remain voted for what we already have. Leave were voting for something different but can’t say what. Don’t you see the gigantic difference? Unless you will admit the leave vote was just a vote against something and not for anything, and that’s exactly why we are in this mess now when it is clear that we need direction on what people actually want now. Going back to your VAT point though, you know ours is higher than it needs to be under EU law? So even if we could get rid of it entirely, we won’t as ours is set higher already. Also my some of my so called ‘pet projects’ apply to every single contract made in the Eu, so every single thing you buy as a person or a business. It also applies to all tortious claims. Hardly a pet project!!! More like an absolutely critical detail to resolve disputes between people and businesses that are not criminal. Leave voted to leave the EU. What part of that don’t remainers understand? As a leaver I can categorically state I knew what I was voting for but it’s the remainers who have muddied the waters for over 2 years in an attempt to prevent the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland from making the clean break the 1.1m majority wanted to happen. So please refrain from saying "but you don’t know what you were voting for" because I’m sick to death of hearing it.
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Post by capto on Feb 14, 2019 18:28:22 GMT
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Post by Linx on Feb 14, 2019 18:34:20 GMT
Brexit is a clusterfuck out of all proportion to anything else we have experienced. It’s a Tory squabble that is dragging all of us into an abyss which will take decades of misery before we recover any kind of parity with the economic and social benefits we have enjoyed for the last thirty years. It took us forty years to recover from the economic damage caused by WW2 and much of the dividend in improved standards of living and improved environments in the last thirty years have been in large part due to our membership of the biggest single market in the Western Hemisphere.
But no, let’s just all throw it all away, shall we?
I thought I would never forgive the Tory bastards for Thatcher. Just as I was softening in my old age, my hatred of them has been re-energised to keep me going until my grave.
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Post by upthefud on Feb 14, 2019 18:34:29 GMT
I think you’re the most boring bloke on this message board. Fair play
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 14, 2019 18:35:49 GMT
The difference between leave and remain is that remain voted for what we already have. Leave were voting for something different but can’t say what. Don’t you see the gigantic difference? Unless you will admit the leave vote was just a vote against something and not for anything, and that’s exactly why we are in this mess now when it is clear that we need direction on what people actually want now. Going back to your VAT point though, you know ours is higher than it needs to be under EU law? So even if we could get rid of it entirely, we won’t as ours is set higher already. Also my some of my so called ‘pet projects’ apply to every single contract made in the Eu, so every single thing you buy as a person or a business. It also applies to all tortious claims. Hardly a pet project!!! More like an absolutely critical detail to resolve disputes between people and businesses that are not criminal. Leave voted to leave the EU. What part of that don’t remainers understand? As a leaver I can categorically state I knew what I was voting for but it’s the remainers who have muddied the waters for over 2 years in an attempt to prevent the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland from making the clean break the 1.1m majority wanted to happen. So please refrain from saying "but you don’t know what you were voting for" because I’m sick to death of hearing it. Ok, so share what leave voted for. I have asked this a 100000000 times and no one can answer. We still don’t even know what the government position is on it! As you know what you voted for, you know a vote to simply leave creates a huge blackhole of law. Reciprocity of judgments for example. Jurisdiction issues over a dispute. What was the leave vote for on these areas? Or something more basic...what about access to benefits for the millions of brits in the EU and for EU citizens here? What was the leave vote on that? Or, even more fundamental and basic, was the leave vote to stop sharing security info? What about data? You said to leave the eu so presumably all sharing of data (security or otherwise) has to cease immediately? Even more fundamental - trade and visas. Was the leave vote for tariffs on trade with the eu, or against? If so, at what level? Did you vote to pay for a visa to visit the EU? What about students on erasmus courses? What about retired brits living in the eu? Can they stay? I don’t think each and every leave voter voted for the same things on all of the above. I bet lots would say contradictory answers such as “no tariffs and no visas” but at the same time say “leave the single market and no free movement”. Those leave voters don’t understand the eu.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 14, 2019 18:47:29 GMT
The difference between leave and remain is that remain voted for what we already have. Leave were voting for something different but can’t say what. Don’t you see the gigantic difference? Unless you will admit the leave vote was just a vote against something and not for anything, and that’s exactly why we are in this mess now when it is clear that we need direction on what people actually want now. Going back to your VAT point though, you know ours is higher than it needs to be under EU law? So even if we could get rid of it entirely, we won’t as ours is set higher already. Also my some of my so called ‘pet projects’ apply to every single contract made in the Eu, so every single thing you buy as a person or a business. It also applies to all tortious claims. Hardly a pet project!!! More like an absolutely critical detail to resolve disputes between people and businesses that are not criminal. Leave voted to leave the EU. What part of that don’t remainers understand? As a leaver I can categorically state I knew what I was voting for but it’s the remainers who have muddied the waters for over 2 years in an attempt to prevent the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland from making the clean break the 1.1m majority wanted to happen. So please refrain from saying "but you don’t know what you were voting for" because I’m sick to death of hearing it. Please list exactly what you voted for.
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Post by 4372 on Feb 14, 2019 18:52:25 GMT
I think you’re the most boring bloke on this message board. Fair play I wish to put forward my own claim to that title.
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Post by wagsastokie on Feb 14, 2019 19:30:12 GMT
Leave voted to leave the EU. What part of that don’t remainers understand? As a leaver I can categorically state I knew what I was voting for but it’s the remainers who have muddied the waters for over 2 years in an attempt to prevent the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland from making the clean break the 1.1m majority wanted to happen. So please refrain from saying "but you don’t know what you were voting for" because I’m sick to death of hearing it. Ok, so share what leave voted for. I have asked this a 100000000 times and no one can answer. We still don’t even know what the government position is on it! As you know what you voted for, you know a vote to simply leave creates a huge blackhole of law. Reciprocity of judgments for example. Jurisdiction issues over a dispute. What was the leave vote for on these areas? Or something more basic...what about access to benefits for the millions of brits in the EU and for EU citizens here? What was the leave vote on that? Or, even more fundamental and basic, was the leave vote to stop sharing security info? What about data? You said to leave the eu so presumably all sharing of data (security or otherwise) has to cease immediately? Even more fundamental - trade and visas. Was the leave vote for tariffs on trade with the eu, or against? If so, at what level? Did you vote to pay for a visa to visit the EU? What about students on erasmus courses? What about retired brits living in the eu? Can they stay? I don’t think each and every leave voter voted for the same things on all of the above. I bet lots would say contradictory answers such as “no tariffs and no visas” but at the same time say “leave the single market and no free movement”. Those leave voters don’t understand the eu. Leave voters understand the Eu all to well that’s why they voted to leave
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Post by wagsastokie on Feb 14, 2019 19:33:58 GMT
Leave voted to leave the EU. What part of that don’t remainers understand? As a leaver I can categorically state I knew what I was voting for but it’s the remainers who have muddied the waters for over 2 years in an attempt to prevent the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland from making the clean break the 1.1m majority wanted to happen. So please refrain from saying "but you don’t know what you were voting for" because I’m sick to death of hearing it. Please list exactly what you voted for. To leave the Eu To leave the single market To leave the customs union To leave the European arest warrant To leave the European court of justice That will do for starters
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 14, 2019 20:23:22 GMT
I think you’re the most boring bloke on this message board. Fair play I wish to put forward my own claim to that title. Nae chance
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Post by essexstokey on Feb 14, 2019 20:30:06 GMT
Brexit: Theresa May suffers fresh Commons defeat
Theresa May has suffered a fresh defeat in a Commons vote on her approach to Brexit by 303 to 258
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Post by lawrieleslie on Feb 14, 2019 20:50:56 GMT
Please list exactly what you voted for. To leave the Eu To leave the single market To leave the customs union To leave the European arest warrant To leave the European court of justice That will do for starters I’d leave it Waggsy the poor souls just don’t get it. They think that because the ballot paper didn’t list each and every one of the EU Internal and External Policies we can’t possibly know what we actually voted for. It’s like a stuck record.
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Post by salopstick on Feb 14, 2019 20:53:08 GMT
Brexit: Theresa May suffers fresh Commons defeat Theresa May has suffered a fresh defeat in a Commons vote on her approach to Brexit by 303 to 258 Brilliant no deal awaits
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Feb 14, 2019 21:26:57 GMT
I completely understand the people who say that they knew what they voted for when they voted Leave, and that was to leave the EU.
But I'm confused by the people who say the same as above, but then are up in arms about some of the plans put forward that involve leaving the EU.
You don't have to like all the plans to leave the EU of course, and some will be more to your liking than others. But claiming that they are not what was voted for is complete and utter horseshit in my opinion.
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Feb 14, 2019 21:51:33 GMT
Brexit: Theresa May suffers fresh Commons defeat Theresa May has suffered a fresh defeat in a Commons vote on her approach to Brexit by 303 to 258 Brilliant no deal awaits The PM does not want no deal The Chancellor does not want no deal The majority of MP's do not want no deal The EU does not want no deal The Bank of England does not want no deal The Chamber of Commerce does not want no deal The CBI does not want no deal The automotive industry does not want no deal Pharmaceutical companies do not want no deal The NHS does not want no deal Farmers do not want no deal Road hauliers do not want no deal Airlines do not want no deal Airplane manufacturers do not want no deal even the fishing industry does not want no deal. The majority of the UK electorate does not want no deal. This list is not exhaustive.
I accept that no deal remains the default in the absence of a deal but I will still be surprised if, given the above, it happens.
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Post by salopstick on Feb 14, 2019 22:03:32 GMT
The PM does not want no deal The Chancellor does not want no deal The majority of MP's do not want no deal The EU does not want no deal The Bank of England does not want no deal The Chamber of Commerce does not want no deal The CBI does not want no deal The automotive industry does not want no deal Pharmaceutical companies do not want no deal The NHS does not want no deal Farmers do not want no deal Road hauliers do not want no deal Airlines do not want no deal Airplane manufacturers do not want no deal even the fishing industry does not want no deal. The majority of the UK electorate does not want no deal. This list is not exhaustive.
I accept that no deal remains the default in the absence of a deal but I will still be surprised if, given the above, it happens.
a lot of those people who want no deal have reasons for no deal What’s in it for them?
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