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Post by trickydicky73 on May 16, 2017 10:08:23 GMT
Remember a few years back when we were creating tons of chances but not putting them away(think Spurs at home when we missed loads)? Pretty sure we had a front line that included Odemwingie and Crouch at various times, but we seemed to flow better. Crouchie linked up play well and we were purring(remember Villa away?).
What's changed and who's to blame, personnel wise?
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Post by Clem Fandango on May 16, 2017 10:12:42 GMT
We seemed to play a decent counter attacking game with a bit of speed from what I can remember. Now we are way too pedestrian and we seem to over think things with players reluctant to take their man on. I watched Watford do the same thing yesterday when they had the opportunity to get forward they seemed to start playing sideways and eventually Chelsea got the ball back and broke on them.
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Post by leoncort on May 16, 2017 10:23:53 GMT
Nzonzi
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Post by mrcoke on May 16, 2017 10:32:03 GMT
For me, looking back with the wisdom of hindsight, the turning point was selling N'Zonzi.
I'm not saying N'zonzi was a super star, but he was a very good player and deserved to be awarded player of the season. I'm also not saying he should not have been sold. He wanted to "improve" himself and play in CL and for France, which he would always be unlikely at Stoke. If he was refusing to re-sign a contract then the club had to sell to recoup what they could for him.
Nor was N'Zonzi very creative; he invariably passed forward or backward and rarely ventured forward. In fact he could be quite frustrating. He was stopped from venturing forward under TP and encouraged under MH. The main reason N'Zonzi made a difference for me is he rarely gave away the ball unlike our current mid-fielders who don't seem to be capable of moving the ball forward. It is usually a case of backwards or side-wards to Arni and Shaq who have had to come back for it so there is only one man up-field.
The only player capable of playing a long accurate ball is Shaq.
The 4 goal hammerings have meant that MH has to use Cameron to bolster Whelan who is not good enough on his own, except against bottom teams (i.e. teams below us). That results in a totally uncreative mid-field.
We need a better player than Whelan so one player can defend the back line on his own, and find the N'Zonzi replacement who can hold the ball, pass it accurately, and carry it forward,as well as help out defensively. So far MvG, Imbula, and Allen (when tried) have failed in that role. I'm a fan of Allen but have to admit that his passing can be ropy.
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Post by JC9 on May 16, 2017 20:57:10 GMT
Hughes' plot. He's lost it.
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Post by crapslinger on May 16, 2017 21:05:10 GMT
The clubs identity, team spirit, motivation, aspiration, Vis Unita Fortior under Mark and his team we have lost all of them.
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Post by robwahlmann on May 16, 2017 21:05:48 GMT
Maybe a Cameron and Imbula pairing could be interesting for the last game? Shaq in the middle and Ramadan on the right! Where does this leave Allen!? Well, maybe worth a try anyways!
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Post by kustokie on May 16, 2017 21:08:35 GMT
For me, looking back with the wisdom of hindsight, the turning point was selling N'Zonzi. I'm not saying N'zonzi was a super star, but he was a very good player and deserved to be awarded player of the season. I'm also not saying he should not have been sold. He wanted to "improve" himself and play in CL and for France, which he would always be unlikely at Stoke. If he was refusing to re-sign a contract then the club had to sell to recoup what they could for him. Nor was N'Zonzi very creative; he invariably passed forward or backward and rarely ventured forward. In fact he could be quite frustrating. He was stopped from venturing forward under TP and encouraged under MH. The main reason N'Zonzi made a difference for me is he rarely gave away the ball unlike our current mid-fielders who don't seem to be capable of moving the ball forward. It is usually a case of backwards or side-wards to Arni and Shaq who have had to come back for it so there is only one man up-field. The only player capable of playing a long accurate ball is Shaq. The 4 goal hammerings have meant that MH has to use Cameron to bolster Whelan who is not good enough on his own, except against bottom teams (i.e. teams below us). That results in a totally uncreative mid-field. We need a better player than Whelan so one player can defend the back line on his own, and find the N'Zonzi replacement who can hold the ball, pass it accurately, and carry it forward,as well as help out defensively. So far MvG, Imbula, and Allen (when tried) have failed in that role. I'm a fan of Allen but have to admit that his passing can be ropy. Unfortunately, the only midfield player we have who looks to push the ball forward and take it to the opposition is Charlie Adam. However, he's not the answer because we need someone better.
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Post by rawli on May 16, 2017 21:10:41 GMT
Part of it is in your opening sentence. It was a few years back.
Players have got older and slower. Nzonzi has gone. Football has moved on and we've not moved with it. We've been sussed. To name 4 reasons.
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Post by crapslinger on May 16, 2017 21:11:14 GMT
For me, looking back with the wisdom of hindsight, the turning point was selling N'Zonzi. I'm not saying N'zonzi was a super star, but he was a very good player and deserved to be awarded player of the season. I'm also not saying he should not have been sold. He wanted to "improve" himself and play in CL and for France, which he would always be unlikely at Stoke. If he was refusing to re-sign a contract then the club had to sell to recoup what they could for him. Nor was N'Zonzi very creative; he invariably passed forward or backward and rarely ventured forward. In fact he could be quite frustrating. He was stopped from venturing forward under TP and encouraged under MH. The main reason N'Zonzi made a difference for me is he rarely gave away the ball unlike our current mid-fielders who don't seem to be capable of moving the ball forward. It is usually a case of backwards or side-wards to Arni and Shaq who have had to come back for it so there is only one man up-field. The only player capable of playing a long accurate ball is Shaq. The 4 goal hammerings have meant that MH has to use Cameron to bolster Whelan who is not good enough on his own, except against bottom teams (i.e. teams below us). That results in a totally uncreative mid-field. We need a better player than Whelan so one player can defend the back line on his own, and find the N'Zonzi replacement who can hold the ball, pass it accurately, and carry it forward,as well as help out defensively. So far MvG, Imbula, and Allen (when tried) have failed in that role. I'm a fan of Allen but have to admit that his passing can be ropy. Unfortunately, the only midfield player we have who looks to push the ball forward and take it to the opposition is Charlie Adam. However, he's not the answer because we need someone better. Scary is it not after four seasons under Hughes the most creative midfielder we have available is Charlie boy, what a fucking balls up.
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Post by kustokie on May 16, 2017 21:12:12 GMT
Maybe a Cameron and Imbula pairing could be interesting for the last game? Shaq in the middle and Ramadan on the right! Where does this leave Allen!? Well, maybe worth a try anyways! Hughes figured out a little while ago that Imbula can't play that position because he doesn't track back and can't defend, which is why Porto sold him to Stoke in the first place.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 16, 2017 21:26:26 GMT
We replaced the engine of the team with Marco Van Ginkel.
We then replaced him with a spluttering Ferrari that you can't rely on.
Fonz was massive to that transition from TP to Hughes. He was the reason it happened pretty seemlessly. If you don't replace that ability, calmness and physical presence in midfield you're fooked.
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Post by crapslinger on May 16, 2017 21:28:38 GMT
Maybe a Cameron and Imbula pairing could be interesting for the last game? Shaq in the middle and Ramadan on the right! Where does this leave Allen!? Well, maybe worth a try anyways! Hughes figured out a little while ago that Imbula can't play that position because he doesn't track back and can't defend, which is why Porto sold him to Stoke in the first place. He was mugged off like a novice with Imbula, Porto must be laughing their bollocks off that they got some dozy fecker to part with £18 m for a complete waste of space.
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Post by jebbstuart on May 16, 2017 21:29:45 GMT
never replaced him. the best alternative was bojan but i dont think he will ever be the same after that injury. the search goes on!!
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Post by crapslinger on May 16, 2017 21:33:01 GMT
We replaced the engine of the team with Marco Van Ginkel. We then replaced him with spluttering Ferrari that you can't rely on. Fonz was massive to that transition from TP to Hughes. He was the reason it happened pretty seemlessly. If you don't replace that ability, calmness and physical presence in midfield you're fooked. He then replaced the very expensive £18 million spluttering Ferrari with a headless Welsh Chicken for £15 million, £33 million to fail to replace a £7 million player the man is a fcukin genius
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Post by kustokie on May 16, 2017 21:36:58 GMT
Unfortunately, the only midfield player we have who looks to push the ball forward and take it to the opposition is Charlie Adam. However, he's not the answer because we need someone better. Scary is it not after four seasons under Hughes the most creative midfielder we have available is Charlie boy, what a fucking balls up. In fairness to Hughes Ii can't believe I just said that), we are fishing in the same pond as all the other 14 teams outside the top six, trying attract players that have aspirations to play for a team that is competing for Europe. Everton may have figured it out. At one point we were playing really well and looked like we might be able to compete with Everton for 7th. Unfortunately, we couldn't sustain that form for very long. I only follow one team, but I suspect all the teams below Everton have had similar experiences.
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Post by kustokie on May 16, 2017 21:41:09 GMT
Hughes figured out a little while ago that Imbula can't play that position because he doesn't track back and can't defend, which is why Porto sold him to Stoke in the first place. He was mugged off like a novice with Imbula, Porto must be laughing their bollocks off that they got some dozy fecker to part with £18 m for a complete waste of space. I have been saying this from the day he signed. It look about 10 minutes on Google to discover Porto dumped Imbula because he couldn't play DM in the Portuguese League (whatever it's called). How the hell they missed this is beyond me (brown envelopes under the table?).
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Post by crapslinger on May 16, 2017 21:55:51 GMT
He was mugged off like a novice with Imbula, Porto must be laughing their bollocks off that they got some dozy fecker to part with £18 m for a complete waste of space. I have been saying this from the day he signed. It look about 10 minutes on Google to discover Porto dumped Imbula because he couldn't play DM in the Portuguese League (whatever it's called). How the hell they missed this is beyond me (brown envelopes under the table?). Seems he is about as good as searching the internet as he is at scouting footballers.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 21:59:12 GMT
Part of it is in your opening sentence. It was a few years back. Players have got older and slower. Nzonzi has gone. Football has moved on and we've not moved with it. We've been sussed. To name 4 reasons. Also the Players and staff are too comfortable at the club.
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Post by jebbstuart on May 16, 2017 22:08:09 GMT
forwards who score goals only 2 prem teams have failed to score 4 goals in a match this season defence we have conceded 4 goals in 7 games this season the worst in the league watford and hull on 5 occasions are the next worst
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Post by terrorofturfmoor on May 16, 2017 22:14:06 GMT
Definitely this....never been replaced!!! He was even good for Bojan!!!
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Post by robinplumpton on May 16, 2017 22:14:48 GMT
"What's missing"? In any given game this season..the defence...the midfield ..the forwards. In some games a combination of two of those elements and in the worst games, a combination of all 3. Only the goalkeepers ( since the arrival of Lee Grant) can possibly be seen as the exception. What is also seemingly missing is any acceptance of accountability for what's missing.
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Post by liamo on May 16, 2017 22:31:59 GMT
A decent Zonz type player is priceless really, someone willing to carry the ball forward at speed creates chaos, displaces players and makes more space for your attacking players
When our gameplan is to get it to either Shaqiri or Arnie it's pretty see through, nobody else poses even the slightest attaking threat due to us playing a defensive player in the No.10 role
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Post by djduncanjames on May 16, 2017 23:12:49 GMT
How would people have set the team up if Nzonzi was here this season then?
Would it really have changed everything?
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Post by callas12 on May 16, 2017 23:53:20 GMT
It's more than a case of what's missing for me. I don't think Hughes nor the players have really ever got their heads right after the League Cup Semi Final penalty shoot out defeat to Liverpool.. That to me was the catalyst to the slippery slope. We had a poor end to that season and last season barring a couple of good home victories was poor on the whole as has this season. For some reason our club DNA seemed to slip away that night & has never been found or recovered. It's a pity coz that night we were on the verge of great things, a Wembley Cup Final and a league status which was healthy too. All came crashing down at that point for me. I'm trying to trust what Coates does and if he really has faith and belief in Hughes ability and decides to keep him on I'll try to be as optimistic about next season as I can be. But deep down I think Hughes bubble burst 2 seasons ago & it's best for all parties to make a fresh start.
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Post by robwahlmann on May 17, 2017 5:38:46 GMT
Maybe a Cameron and Imbula pairing could be interesting for the last game? Shaq in the middle and Ramadan on the right! Where does this leave Allen!? Well, maybe worth a try anyways! Hughes figured out a little while ago that Imbula can't play that position because he doesn't track back and can't defend, which is why Porto sold him to Stoke in the first place. I partly agree with you, but Imbula vas very impressive for us in his first games last season. If he could learn to pass the ball earlier he would even be in a better position when the opponents are approching our goal! I've also been among his critics this season, but I can also see that we need more creativity as we often look slow and predictable going forward! It's easy to see that he has some ability on the ball as well when he glides past opponents!
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Post by ElworthPotter on May 17, 2017 6:48:36 GMT
forwards who score goals only 2 prem teams have failed to score 4 goals in a match this season defence we have conceded 4 goals in 7 games this season the worst in the league watford and hull on 5 occasions are the next worst You can't blame the forwards when they get feck all opportunities in front of goal. I heard people slagging Berahino off saying that's still no goals he's been here since January etc, but how many clear cut chances has he had in that time? I can think of one at home against Hull that he snatched at on the volley and those 2 headers away at Swansea the other week. Plus the blinding save from Mignolet when we played Liverpool at home. It must be so frustrating playing in our team as a striker when you make your run only to look up and see the wingers cutting back and passing sideways or backwards time after time. Diouf, Joselu, Crouch, Walters all score goals when played up front and are given chances but a certain someone has decided Diouf doesn't deserve a go up top, Joselu wasn't good enough and then there are the obvious problems with Crouch and Walters. Anyway like I said, you can't blame the strikers, you can blame the man that has managed to turn a creative system with creative players into the dross we watch today. Mark Hughes.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 17, 2017 7:13:46 GMT
How would people have set the team up if Nzonzi was here this season then? Would it really have changed everything? Having someone in the midfield to win the ball, compete, pass, win headers, support the attack, give it to the wingers quicker etc. Don't see why it would tbh.........
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on May 17, 2017 7:28:52 GMT
forwards who score goals only 2 prem teams have failed to score 4 goals in a match this season defence we have conceded 4 goals in 7 games this season the worst in the league watford and hull on 5 occasions are the next worst You can't blame the forwards when they get feck all opportunities in front of goal. I heard people slagging Berahino off saying that's still no goals he's been here since January etc, but how many clear cut chances has he had in that time? I can think of one at home against Hull that he snatched at on the volley and those 2 headers away at Swansea the other week. Plus the blinding save from Mignolet when we played Liverpool at home. It must be so frustrating playing in our team as a striker when you make your run only to look up and see the wingers cutting back and passing sideways or backwards time after time. Diouf, Joselu, Crouch, Walters all score goals when played up front and are given chances but a certain someone has decided Diouf doesn't deserve a go up top, Joselu wasn't good enough and then there are the obvious problems with Crouch and Walters. Anyway like I said, you can't blame the strikers, you can blame the man that has managed to turn a creative system with creative players into the dross we watch today. Mark Hughes. I think your point here is spot on. The performances of our so called creative players, shaqiri in particular, is just as much a major reason for our lack of goals as the failure to replace nzonzi. I'd love to hear what our forwards really think about having to watch shaq playing his little games, passing backwards or only passing to arnie. Arnie has been falling into the trap but was better on saturday and did set up a couple of chances in the hull game. The other creative player is joe Allen, who isn't very creative so fuck knows what the thinking is there. Ronaldo would score 8 goals a season at stoke with this lot playing behind him
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Post by burge2u on May 17, 2017 7:46:02 GMT
We aren't scoring enough goals because our style of play is easy for the opposition to defend against.
Our build up play is too slow, so that the opposition don't get pulled out of position. Both Shaq & Arnie continually (& predictably ) cut inside, which makes us very narrow up front and easier to mark. The central striker (Berahino or whoever) is then swamped by defenders.
By not putting in crosses from the byeline, we are not pulling defenders out of position and turning them to face their own goal. In this respect we are not doing what other teams do to us. To me, Ramadan seems to be the most "natural" wide player that we have.
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