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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2017 12:35:50 GMT
Sorry to butt in but how does all of that work when he has just signed up Glen Johnson to another season when all and sundry are certain he's done and dusted at the top level? He says we need to invest in the defence then does that trick? With that in mind would you trust him to spend another penny to try and sort that out? I dread to think who he's got lined up as the Whelan replacement. His last two central midfield signings for me have been unmitigated disasters. Partly due to how he's used them post signing, which is part of the point. The only thing I can hope for is that he's picked one of Johnson or Bardsley to be his back-up RB next year and, in the opinion of most people, he's gone for the wrong one. Sorry to labour the point, but if he's gone for the wrong back up then his judgement is flawed, so why will or should he be trusted to get the first choice picks right? I know you're resisiting this well but by now I reckon you should be axe axe axing your way to Bet365 to pick up the big destroyer from Denise's toy draw.
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Post by march4 on May 14, 2017 12:37:28 GMT
A lot of very sensible posters on this thread (please excuse my intrusion).
The consensus seems to be it is time for a change.
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Post by Paul Spencer on May 14, 2017 12:39:15 GMT
Yeah I completely respect all of what you've said there mate.
But what I can't respect is you saying all that and then saying but he needs fucking off after eight or nine weeks (in October) if it isn't working.
You simply don't get that get out clause, when so much (as in what I've listed above) is at risk.
You're essentially saying that you need another eight or nine weeks to come to a firm decision either way about him but during that time you're prepared to spend a truck load of money whilst you have a think about it.
Well, what you're effectively saying then is that if there's any doubt about a manager's ability come the end of the campaign then his club should never give him the summer to sort things out. One bad year and you're out, no matter how good your previous record is. And what do you mean that you don't get that get out clause? Of course we do- Leicester have done it, Palace have done it, Swansea have done it. If things aren't working and you're 100% convinced that things aren't going to improve then you get rid and a new man comes in. It's not rocket science is it? Paul Clement's turned Swansea around without spending any money. Big Sam's worked with a lot of Pardew's signings and sorted them out. That's what good managers do. Whatever Hughes spends this summer, he'll be buying footballers with enough ability to be of use to someone...he's not going to get £50 m and then spend it on Rolf Harris, Stephen Hawking and a couple of inmates from Harplands is he? We're talking high-level footballers who someone else will be able to use. At present I want Hughes to stay, then I'll judge next season on its own merits. I can understand why many people don't want him to stay, and I wouldn't put up any protest if Coates got rid, but I just don't agree with what you've written there. It's like you're saying, nail your colours to the mast then no changing your mind until next May...which is ridiculous. No I said you give him longer than 8 or 9 weeks if you REALLY believe he's the man for the job. Especially when you ALREADY know that his teams traditionally start slowly. It sounds to me that in reality you actually don't have that much faith in him after all.
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Post by Trouserdog on May 14, 2017 12:39:41 GMT
The only thing I can hope for is that he's picked one of Johnson or Bardsley to be his back-up RB next year and, in the opinion of most people, he's gone for the wrong one. Sorry to labour the point, but if he's gone for the wrong back up then his judgement is flawed, so why will or should he be trusted to get the first choice picks right? I know you're resisiting this well but by now I reckon you should be axe axe axing your way to Bet365 to pick up the big destroyer from Denise's toy draw. Yeah, but no manager is infallible. He doesn't seem to want to pick Bardsley after that red card so maybe something's gone on behind the scenes. I can understand him wanting to keep one of them around just so he's got someone experienced there. The worry will be if he now offers Bardsley another deal because that'd indicate we won't be seeing a new RB at all.
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Post by alster on May 14, 2017 12:47:45 GMT
A cowards opinion. If you're going to stick by him now, then you better well understand (and most importantly ACCEPT) the responsibility that that opinion entails, if you don't/can't, then you need to call to replace him now. In 'October' the money will have been blown on Hughes' failed (even more) new signings and the opportunity to bring in a credible replacement new manager will have been severely reduced. You will have tied one hand up against the back of the club in the pursuit of 'managerial continuity' and then fucked off that 'managerial continuity' just 12 weeks into the season if Hughes has another of his (to be expected) slow starts. You either champion him now and have GENUINE belief in that conviction to follow it (ALL THE WAY) through, or you call for him to go now, anything else is just weak half way house horse shit, that ultimately will leave the club in a very precarious position going forwards. You either champion him now and have GENUINE belief in that conviction to follow it (ALL THE WAY) through, or you call for him to go now, anything else is just weak half way house horse shit, that ultimately will leave the club in a very precarious position going forwards.I've always maintained that Hughes should be allowed ONE bad season following his excellent track record with us. That means he has to be given the opportiunity to put things right for the next one, and the only time he has to do that is the summer window. It's absolute garbage to say that holding that opinion means I have to then support the manager for the whole of the next season, regardless of what happens. By that logic, no manager should ever be sacked mid-season, which is clearly bollocks. I understand the argument that if Hughes signs a load of dross this summer (you don't know he'd do this though, any more than I know he wouldn't) then he's lumbering a new manager with players he might not want, but we've seen countless examples of good managers coming into clubs and sorting out whatever resources he has available into a decent unit. There'd be plenty of managers around who'd jump at the chance of doing so as well, even if the season is underway. This season's been shite, and I wouldn't exactly be protesting outside the main doors if Coates pulled the trigger, but I still believe it's only far to give the bloke one last window to sort things out. You might call it cowardly, I'd call it reasonable. I'd just call it sentimental. Paul is correct following your fair and sentimental route is likely to leave the club with one arm tied behind its back with the majority of the transfer budget blown players contracted that are not wanted and fishing in a puddle for potential replacement manager/coaches.
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Post by Trouserdog on May 14, 2017 12:51:52 GMT
Well, what you're effectively saying then is that if there's any doubt about a manager's ability come the end of the campaign then his club should never give him the summer to sort things out. One bad year and you're out, no matter how good your previous record is. And what do you mean that you don't get that get out clause? Of course we do- Leicester have done it, Palace have done it, Swansea have done it. If things aren't working and you're 100% convinced that things aren't going to improve then you get rid and a new man comes in. It's not rocket science is it? Paul Clement's turned Swansea around without spending any money. Big Sam's worked with a lot of Pardew's signings and sorted them out. That's what good managers do. Whatever Hughes spends this summer, he'll be buying footballers with enough ability to be of use to someone...he's not going to get £50 m and then spend it on Rolf Harris, Stephen Hawking and a couple of inmates from Harplands is he? We're talking high-level footballers who someone else will be able to use. At present I want Hughes to stay, then I'll judge next season on its own merits. I can understand why many people don't want him to stay, and I wouldn't put up any protest if Coates got rid, but I just don't agree with what you've written there. It's like you're saying, nail your colours to the mast then no changing your mind until next May...which is ridiculous. No I said you give him longer than 8 or 9 weeks if you REALLY believe he's the man for the job. Especially when you ALREADY know that his teams traditionally start slowly. It sounds to me that in reality you actually don't have the much faith in him after all. Well, it all depends on how the season starts doesn't it? I haven't got a crystal ball, but if we're bottom of the table after 8 or 9 weeks and look certain to go down then I'd boot him out, and that'd be the same whoever was in charge. If we're plodding along in mid-table then I'd obviously keep him longer. There's no guarantee we'll start slowly, even though we have in past seasons. No-one has a clue where we'll be October or at any given point next year, so there's no point setting anything in stone- we'd just need to make the decision as things unfold. As for having faith in him, well, who in their right mind would have 100% faith in him after the season we've just had? Three 9th place finishes though means I've got enough faith to justify giving him more time.
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Post by Paul Spencer on May 14, 2017 13:01:06 GMT
No I said you give him longer than 8 or 9 weeks if you REALLY believe he's the man for the job. Especially when you ALREADY know that his teams traditionally start slowly. It sounds to me that in reality you actually don't have the much faith in him after all. Well, it all depends on how the season starts doesn't it? I haven't got a crystal ball, but if we're bottom of the table after 8 or 9 weeks and look certain to go down then I'd boot him out, and that'd be the same whoever was in charge. If we're plodding along in mid-table then I'd obviously keep him longer. There's no guarantee we'll start slowly, even though we have in past seasons. No-one has a clue where we'll be October or at any given point next year, so there's no point setting anything in stone- we'd just need to make the decision as things unfold. As for having faith in him, well, who in their right mind would have 100% faith in him after the season we've just had? Three 9th place finishes though means I've got enough faith to justify giving him more time. Look how we started this very season Trousers. That is the very scenario you're talking about sacking him for next season. You simply can't do that if you've backed him to the hilt and seriously hamstrung yourself with possible replacements. If we lose just the first three games of the season the atmosphere within the stadium will be poisonous but as a board who have chosen to back him then you have to stand by him through the initial rough patch. Coates will consider these potential scenarios when considering whether he sticks with him now or not.
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Post by alster on May 14, 2017 13:03:07 GMT
Well, it all depends on how the season starts doesn't it? I haven't got a crystal ball, but if we're bottom of the table after 8 or 9 weeks and look certain to go down then I'd boot him out, and that'd be the same whoever was in charge. If we're plodding along in mid-table then I'd obviously keep him longer. There's no guarantee we'll start slowly, even though we have in past seasons. No-one has a clue where we'll be October or at any given point next year, so there's no point setting anything in stone- we'd just need to make the decision as things unfold. As for having faith in him, well, who in their right mind would have 100% faith in him after the season we've just had? Three 9th place finishes though means I've got enough faith to justify giving him more time. Look how we started this very season Trousers. That is the very scenario you're talking about sacking him for next season. You simply can't do that if you've backed him to the hilt and seriously hamstrung yourself with possible replacements. If we lose just the first three games of the season the atmosphere within the stadium will be poisonous but as a board who have chosen to back him then you have to stand by him through the initial rough patch. Coates will consider these potential scenarios when considering whether he sticks with him now or not. Lets just hope he makes a hard headed business decision not a fair and sentimental personal one.
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Post by thevoid on May 14, 2017 13:22:55 GMT
How can Coates trust him with more money? It's just not going to happen. He's spunked nearly 20 million on Imbula and has now put him on the transfer list where no doubt we'll make a big loss. And instead we've got Whelan. Allen and Cameron as a midfield 3 today who really were embarrassing to watch today. Coates needs to get rid of him and get someone in who can clear out the Deadwood. Not give contracts to crocks & ageing players, get those creative players back in the fold and make use of the undoubtedly hugely talented squad we've got. On paper we're a top 8 team. Although fuck all is won on paper we need to be up there challenging with what we have and the reality is we've gone so far backwards we were a loss away from being in the relegation battle on the last day!! Managers have made shit transfers,it happens. Look at Fergusson at United. Veron, Forlan, Djemba Djemba etc. Having said that, I do have concerns mate. Man Utd can afford to have expensive flops though. We can't.
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Post by Clayton Wood on May 14, 2017 14:31:17 GMT
Well, it all depends on how the season starts doesn't it? I haven't got a crystal ball, but if we're bottom of the table after 8 or 9 weeks and look certain to go down then I'd boot him out, and that'd be the same whoever was in charge. If we're plodding along in mid-table then I'd obviously keep him longer. There's no guarantee we'll start slowly, even though we have in past seasons. No-one has a clue where we'll be October or at any given point next year, so there's no point setting anything in stone- we'd just need to make the decision as things unfold. As for having faith in him, well, who in their right mind would have 100% faith in him after the season we've just had? Three 9th place finishes though means I've got enough faith to justify giving him more time. Look how we started this very season Trousers. That is the very scenario you're talking about sacking him for next season. You simply can't do that if you've backed him to the hilt and seriously hamstrung yourself with possible replacements. If we lose just the first three games of the season the atmosphere within the stadium will be poisonous but as a board who have chosen to back him then you have to stand by him through the initial rough patch. Coates will consider these potential scenarios when considering whether he sticks with him now or not. In any business, and SCFC is no different, you need to minimise risk and maximise your advantages. I don't think PC will go into a new season feeling there is a risk with his right hand man (or even back of house team) as happened with TP. Starting with less than 100% confidence in the manager for the whole of the season ahead is plain daft. If you start and it goes wrong later for unseen reasons then fine, fix it. But don't start with plan B already to go after a couple of months. It's not booing at the whistle or an empty stadium for a lap of honour or even a small drop in ST sales that will decide this. It's maintaining Prem status and whatever that entails, not being fair.
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Post by Paul Spencer on May 14, 2017 14:36:50 GMT
Look how we started this very season Trousers. That is the very scenario you're talking about sacking him for next season. You simply can't do that if you've backed him to the hilt and seriously hamstrung yourself with possible replacements. If we lose just the first three games of the season the atmosphere within the stadium will be poisonous but as a board who have chosen to back him then you have to stand by him through the initial rough patch. Coates will consider these potential scenarios when considering whether he sticks with him now or not. In any business, and SCFC is no different, you need to minimise risk and maximise your advantages. I don't think PC will go into a new season feeling there is a risk with his right hand man (or even back of house team) as happened with TP. Starting with less than 100% confidence in the manager for the whole of the season ahead is plain daft. If you start and it goes wrong later for unseen reasons then fine, fix it. But don't start with plan B already to go after a couple of months. It's not booing at the whistle or an empty stadium for a lap of honour or even a small drop in ST sales that will decide this. It's maintaining Prem status and whatever that entails, not being fair. Agree 100% with you chap.
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Post by Trouserdog on May 14, 2017 14:44:29 GMT
Well, it all depends on how the season starts doesn't it? I haven't got a crystal ball, but if we're bottom of the table after 8 or 9 weeks and look certain to go down then I'd boot him out, and that'd be the same whoever was in charge. If we're plodding along in mid-table then I'd obviously keep him longer. There's no guarantee we'll start slowly, even though we have in past seasons. No-one has a clue where we'll be October or at any given point next year, so there's no point setting anything in stone- we'd just need to make the decision as things unfold. As for having faith in him, well, who in their right mind would have 100% faith in him after the season we've just had? Three 9th place finishes though means I've got enough faith to justify giving him more time. Look how we started this very season Trousers. That is the very scenario you're talking about sacking him for next season. You simply can't do that if you've backed him to the hilt and seriously hamstrung yourself with possible replacements. If we lose just the first three games of the season the atmosphere within the stadium will be poisonous but as a board who have chosen to back him then you have to stand by him through the initial rough patch. Coates will consider these potential scenarios when considering whether he sticks with him now or not. We can go on forever though with these ifs, buts and maybes for both scenarios. I've got no issues with taking the risk of backing a proven manager to turn mistakes around, then sacking him if he doesn't. You say, 'you can't do this' well, yes you can. You just say, Dear Mark, you're sacked, thanks for everything, now fuck off. That's a risk yeah, but so is appointing a new man with limited knowledge of the squad he's inheriting, then expecting him to spend £50m wisely over the summer without ever seing his own team play a competitive game. What if the new guy, whoever he is, has a Kamara-like start and loses his first christ knows how many games after spending £50m? What then? I'm not expecting an answer to that, I'm just making the point that there's no risk free option on the table here and no-one's got the power to know for certain which is the right one to take. All that both sides of the debate can do is hope that the Coates family weigh up all the options and that whatever they decide works out for the best. At the end of the day I'd give Hughes longer and you wouldn't, that's what it boils down to. I'll respect your opinion whether you show me the courtesy of respecting mine or not, but I can only express how I honestly feel about the situation.
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Post by johnnysoul60 on May 14, 2017 14:56:03 GMT
I know some may disagree but I think first and foremost Stoke have to have a team that works and plays as a unit because we will always be competing with clubs with greater resources.
We also need to spot talent and improve it which to be fair to Hughes he did well at first with Arnie and Bojan and some smart loan signings .
For whatever reason that has faded and for too long now we look like a aging team with too many individuals who are not team players .
I don't think that is sustainable for Stoke and major change is needed now .
From everything that I have seen it looks like Hughes needs to be one of.the things changed, the worry is we keep giving contracts to fading players and I wonder just how much room for manoeuvre there will actually be in the summer . I thought we needed a lot of changes last summer and of the current squad I would only see half at the most worth keeping.
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Post by Bojan Mackey on May 14, 2017 15:05:18 GMT
Look how we started this very season Trousers. That is the very scenario you're talking about sacking him for next season. You simply can't do that if you've backed him to the hilt and seriously hamstrung yourself with possible replacements. If we lose just the first three games of the season the atmosphere within the stadium will be poisonous but as a board who have chosen to back him then you have to stand by him through the initial rough patch. Coates will consider these potential scenarios when considering whether he sticks with him now or not. We can go on forever though with these ifs, buts and maybes for both scenarios. I've got no issues with taking the risk of backing a proven manager to turn mistakes around, then sacking him if he doesn't. You say, 'you can't do this' well, yes you can. You just say, Dear Mark, you're sacked, thanks for everything, now fuck off. That's a risk yeah, but so is appointing a new man with limited knowledge of the squad he's inheriting, then expecting him to spend £50m wisely over the summer without ever seing his own team play a competitive game. What if the new guy, whoever he is, has a Kamara-like start and loses his first christ knows how many games after spending £50m? What then? I'm not expecting an answer to that, I'm just making the point that there's no risk free option on the table here and no-one's got the power to know for certain which is the right one to take. All that both sides of the debate can do is hope that the Coates family weigh up all the options and that whatever they decide works out for the best. At the end of the day I'd give Hughes longer and you wouldn't, that's what it boils down to. I'll respect your opinion whether you show me the courtesy of respecting mine or not, but I can only express how I honestly feel about the situation. Surprised you're being this patient Trousers, this has been a rot that's lasted 18 months, since that Liverpool cup match in particular and to me Hughes doesn't seem to have the nous or indeed the desire to turn this around. He looks a defeated man, the team don't appear to be playing for him, the fans are something much worse than angry, they're full of apathy, we haven't had a convincing run this season at all, we didn't score for 6 away games in a row, the silence from the board is also deafening. His time is up, I firmly believe if we stick with Hughes we're dropping next season, a new bloke needs a whole summer to sort this plethora of shite out.
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Post by Miles Offside on May 14, 2017 15:08:55 GMT
Is it actually more risky to keep Hughes now? That is the question that Coates needs to ask himself. I have always cautioned against changing managers and Hughes does have a pretty good track record overall. I am beginning to think though that keeping him is at least as risky as changing, especially given we will need to spend quite a bit to fix his past mistakes. On that front his track record is not so great. This is not a knee jerk post to a heavy defeat and frustrating season. I have consistently argued in favour of sticking with Hughes but I was not expecting such a prolonged run of poor form to finish the season. Good job we are safe, have a few quality players and a chairman who cares about the club and has good judgement. Frustrating season but things could be a lot worse. Are there any on here who are still convinced we should definitely stick with him because I for one am certainly wobbling now? It's become increasingly clear during the time he's been here just how much he's depended on the squad he inherited and that's despite signing 27 players and spending a fortune trying to improve it. I wouldn't trust him with another penny. I struggle to see any valid reason to keep him. He needs to go and a new manager brought in to sort out the mess Hughes has created.
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