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Post by philm87 on May 13, 2017 20:03:29 GMT
Is it actually more risky to keep Hughes now?
That is the question that Coates needs to ask himself.
I have always cautioned against changing managers and Hughes does have a pretty good track record overall. I am beginning to think though that keeping him is at least as risky as changing, especially given we will need to spend quite a bit to fix his past mistakes. On that front his track record is not so great. This is not a knee jerk post to a heavy defeat and frustrating season. I have consistently argued in favour of sticking with Hughes but I was not expecting such a prolonged run of poor form to finish the season.
Good job we are safe, have a few quality players and a chairman who cares about the club and has good judgement. Frustrating season but things could be a lot worse.
Are there any on here who are still convinced we should definitely stick with him because I for one am certainly wobbling now?
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Post by cheeesfreeex on May 13, 2017 20:11:55 GMT
I'm a sticker. I'll let folk have a cathartic rant before getting involved in the mass debate though.
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Post by philm87 on May 13, 2017 20:16:29 GMT
I'm a sticker. I'll let folk have a cathartic rant before getting involved in the mass debate though. That is probably fair enough right now
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Post by Trouserdog on May 13, 2017 20:23:40 GMT
Whether we stick with him or sack him, one thing's for certain: we need to spend a hell of a lot of money.
The question is, does Coates trust him to invest wisely? Should he trust him?
I'd give Hughes the summer cheque book, cross my fingers that this year's been an aberration and then make a judgement in October. If at that point we still look as bad as we do now then I think it's fair enough- time to go.
He's on the thinnest of thin ice after that display.
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Post by wuzza on May 13, 2017 20:25:50 GMT
Is it actually more risky to keep Hughes now? That is the question that Coates needs to ask himself. I have always cautioned against changing managers and Hughes does have a pretty good track record overall. I am beginning to think though that keeping him is at least as risky as changing, especially given we will need to spend quite a bit to fix his past mistakes. On that front his track record is not so great. This is not a knee jerk post to a heavy defeat and frustrating season. I have consistently argued in favour of sticking with Hughes but I was not expecting such a prolonged run of poor form to finish the season. Good job we are safe, have a few quality players and a chairman who cares about the club and has good judgement. Frustrating season but things could be a lot worse. Are there any on here who are still convinced we should definitely stick with him because I for one am certainly wobbling now? Sums up my feelings exactly. The last 2 or 3 weeks have edged me towards thinking that he really doesn't have the answers we need.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on May 13, 2017 20:27:57 GMT
Don't trust him with big money again so for me he's got to go.Then let a new manager have some money and also bring back the loan players to see what he wants to do with them
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Post by FullerMagic on May 13, 2017 20:30:38 GMT
I've always liked him and thought it was unthinkable we'd be in this position, even after the...er....interesting end to last season.
Doesn't sit that well to give a bloke with his track record the heave-ho after one shocker of a season after three 9ths, but he hasn't really put a solitary foot right this season, has he? For that reason, I'd struggle to raise many objections if the powers-that-be thought it was riskier to keep him than give a new guy a clean slate.
Don't envy 'the family' making the call. They really need to get it right, and they have done so far so I'll back them to do it again
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Post by stokie1 on May 13, 2017 20:32:26 GMT
I've always liked him and thought it was unthinkable we'd be in this position, even after the...er....interesting end to last season. Doesn't sit that well to give a bloke with his track record the heave-ho after one shocker of a season after three 9ths, but he hasn't really put a solitary foot right this season, has he? For that reason, I'd struggle to raise many objections if the powers-that-be thought it was riskier to keep him than give a new guy a clean slate. Don't envy 'the family' making the call. They really need to get it right, and they have done so far so I'll back them to do it again I agree. Don't think they will be comfortable opening the check book for Hughes which means he has to go really!
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2017 20:32:31 GMT
Whether we stick with him or sack him, one thing's for certain: we need to spend a hell of a lot of money. The question is, does Coates trust him to invest wisely? Should he trust him? I'd give Hughes the summer cheque book, cross my fingers that this year's been an aberration and then make a judgement in October. If at that point we still look as bad as we do now then I think it's fair enough- time to go. He's on the thinnest of thin ice after that display. Mate the problem is seasons under Hughes don't start until October. This situation smacks of QPR. This form will carry on into next season. Exactly the same thing happened in West London. Every game is like a testimonial. We were a disgrace today. I can't see Hughes changing it. He needs to go. Get in someone else and give him the cheque book. At least a new manager will then get the players he wants. It can't carry on.
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Post by robwahlmann on May 13, 2017 20:38:34 GMT
Since after Christmas last season our decline has been so easy to spot! I'm really unsure Hughes can keep us up for another season unless he keeps playing TP's old players! They'll keep us up narrowly, but this is certainly not the way we want to go, is it!!?
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Post by WhyDelilah on May 13, 2017 20:39:28 GMT
Whether we stick with him or sack him, one thing's for certain: we need to spend a hell of a lot of money. The question is, does Coates trust him to invest wisely? Should he trust him? I'd give Hughes the summer cheque book, cross my fingers that this year's been an aberration and then make a judgement in October. If at that point we still look as bad as we do now then I think it's fair enough- time to go. He's on the thinnest of thin ice after that display. Yeah, stick your head in the sand mate. Hope for the best.
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Post by TexasPotter on May 13, 2017 20:40:32 GMT
It was risky only selectively investing and persisting with older starters in midfield, if not corrected we face possible relegation next season If new signings don't materialize our side could be in the shit.
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Post by Trouserdog on May 13, 2017 20:41:28 GMT
Whether we stick with him or sack him, one thing's for certain: we need to spend a hell of a lot of money. The question is, does Coates trust him to invest wisely? Should he trust him? I'd give Hughes the summer cheque book, cross my fingers that this year's been an aberration and then make a judgement in October. If at that point we still look as bad as we do now then I think it's fair enough- time to go. He's on the thinnest of thin ice after that display. Mate the problem is seasons under Hughes don't start until October. This situation smacks of QPR. This form will carry on into next season. Exactly the same thing happened in West London. Every game is like a testimonial. We were a disgrace today. I can't see Hughes changing it. He needs to go. Get in someone else and give him the cheque book. At least a new manager will then get the players he wants. It can't carry on. Certainly can't carry on like that, no. I think Coates will make it very clear that it can't as well.
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Post by stokeson on May 13, 2017 20:44:08 GMT
Its TPs player that have saved him this season that's for sure.If he doesnt get the midfield sorted and that means a welan upgrade and Berahino is a flop hes under thin ice not on it.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2017 20:44:43 GMT
Mate the problem is seasons under Hughes don't start until October. This situation smacks of QPR. This form will carry on into next season. Exactly the same thing happened in West London. Every game is like a testimonial. We were a disgrace today. I can't see Hughes changing it. He needs to go. Get in someone else and give him the cheque book. At least a new manager will then get the players he wants. It can't carry on. Certainly can't carry on like that, no. I think Coates will make it very clear that it can't as well. Hughes has never changed. He's arrogant. He doesn't think he should change. The decision needs taking out of his hands. We were absolutely abject today and it's been going on for months.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on May 13, 2017 20:45:09 GMT
Mate the problem is seasons under Hughes don't start until October. This situation smacks of QPR. This form will carry on into next season. Exactly the same thing happened in West London. Every game is like a testimonial. We were a disgrace today. I can't see Hughes changing it. He needs to go. Get in someone else and give him the cheque book. At least a new manager will then get the players he wants. It can't carry on. Certainly can't carry on like that, no. I think Coates will make it very clear that it can't as well. That'll make it all ok then🤔🙄
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Post by Sfance on May 13, 2017 20:47:12 GMT
I can only assume that those who STILL want to keep him have never had an organization or business to run that depends on having people who perform. How much more evidence can anyone possibly need to see that Hughes isn't up to the job? It was way past time when Coates finally pulled the plug on Pulis. We're at exactly the same point now.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on May 13, 2017 20:48:06 GMT
I was originally of the school of thought that said give him a summer and hope this season was a one off. But his entire attitude to our plight has been to shrug as if it's random chance.
I honestly do not think we'd lose anything by getting rid, replacing and going with a fresh approach for the new season. The tactics today were horrific in every way possible.
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Post by reddipotter on May 13, 2017 20:48:49 GMT
As I keep saying, Hughes has a record of having a quick impact at clubs, but no record of building over a period of time. He's actually taking apart all the strengths we have built our premier league success on. If he knew how to reverse the decline, he would have done so by now. Keeping him is not a risk, it is a certain recipe for continued decline.
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Post by superheroantonius on May 13, 2017 20:50:03 GMT
For me there are two options
1) hughes stays/ bowen goes and someone like gary neville comes in has coach. Big shake up. Lots of ins and outs in the transfer market.
2) hughes and bowen both go. New manager. Lots of ins and outs in the transfer market.
I think Peter coates should choose one of those options
I think hughes and bowen both staying and a bit of tinkering is not going to cut it. I think we are beyond that
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Post by Clayton Wood on May 13, 2017 20:50:06 GMT
Whether we stick with him or sack him, one thing's for certain: we need to spend a hell of a lot of money. The question is, does Coates trust him to invest wisely? Should he trust him? I'd give Hughes the summer cheque book, cross my fingers that this year's been an aberration and then make a judgement in October. If at that point we still look as bad as we do now then I think it's fair enough- time to go. He's on the thinnest of thin ice after that display. Great if we're riding high at the end of October, but recent history predicts we'll be 'slow starting' again. Then what? Give him the benefit of the doubt, it just how we start, or go for a new man who'll want to spend in the overly expensive Jan window? This just kicks the problem down the road, time to sort it now.......or stick come hell or high water. Sorry, sort it now while there's a clean break to do it over the summer.
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Post by Trouserdog on May 13, 2017 20:58:57 GMT
Whether we stick with him or sack him, one thing's for certain: we need to spend a hell of a lot of money. The question is, does Coates trust him to invest wisely? Should he trust him? I'd give Hughes the summer cheque book, cross my fingers that this year's been an aberration and then make a judgement in October. If at that point we still look as bad as we do now then I think it's fair enough- time to go. He's on the thinnest of thin ice after that display. Yeah, stick your head in the sand mate. Hope for the best. If we were talking about a manager who'd never achieved anything and didn't have a track record then yeah, it'd be a no-brainer to get rid now, but none of us know for sure if this has just been a one-off bad season (after three very good ones) or whether he really has lost his shit completely to the point of no return. There's not a massive amount he can do to change things at the moment, other than a few tweaks here and there, as we're desperate for new faces in key areas, which can only be addressed once the window is open. I think Hughes's previous record has earnt him one last transfer window to sort it out. You've lost patience sooner than that, fair enough, that's your opinion.
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Post by stokiejoe on May 13, 2017 20:59:25 GMT
I have supported the possibility of Hughes turning things around and getting the team motivated, but have run out of patience.
I appreciate that managers don't say what they really think in public but some of Hughes recent comments are so far from what I have been watching that I don't believe he is aware there is a problem.
Coates invested a lot in the academy but despite comments youth hasn't been given much chance. We are blocking places by extending the contracts of our oldest players. I suspect that Imbula being sold at a loss will be the final straw and fully expect a replacement manager being sought within a week of the season ending.
Gutted that it is turning out like this, had high hopes for Hughes and us.
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Post by turtlefox on May 13, 2017 21:01:35 GMT
Whether we stick with him or sack him, one thing's for certain: we need to spend a hell of a lot of money. The question is, does Coates trust him to invest wisely? Should he trust him? I'd give Hughes the summer cheque book, cross my fingers that this year's been an aberration and then make a judgement in October. If at that point we still look as bad as we do now then I think it's fair enough- time to go. He's on the thinnest of thin ice after that display. Spending money is easy. Spending money wisely is a whole different ball game. Double that with Hughes not being able to motivate the players he has bought then you have a big problem on your hands. Backing a manager is one thing but knowing their time is up is why you like football.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on May 13, 2017 21:03:07 GMT
If it is to be a new manager he needs a pre season with the players and not someone coming in October/November saying he didn't have this.
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Post by pavel on May 13, 2017 22:45:51 GMT
I actually think it is getting to the stage that it is more risky to keep Hughes than let him go. A few weeks ago I would have said give him another season but I think that time is past now. In reality he's had 18 months to sort our decline that started after the semi-final and I have seen nothing in our play, set up and tactics that he has yet grasped what is going wrong and how to fix it. The first 2 1/2 years were fantastic, we changed our style, we weren't afraid to take teams on and we took some incredible scalps playing very good football as well as bringing in exciting players. I can't fathom what has gone wrong and why Hughes has turned his back on playing positively and trusting flair players, but he has.
Our display today summed up the last 18 months with the over reliance on the fading old guard, poor substitutions, too little to late as usual, lack of trust in young players when there was little to lose, lack of tactical awareness and head in the sand approach in keeping trying the same failed tactics and formations and expecting them to suddenly work. It was obvious from the start that Arsenal's formation was allowing them to get behind our full backs and created havoc, yet this was not addressed all game, no response tactically, no change of shape ( if we even had one) and no perceptible urgency to the situation.
It's been blatantly obvious to most of us that we lack pace all over the team but especially in the midfield and when you add a lack of creativity in that department as well the result is what we have been seeing. We are a team devoid of ideas at the moment with no confidence, shape, plan, purpose or resilience, we are painfully slow about the pitch and our passing and movement which improved so much under Hughes is back where it started when he took over. We have creativity in Shaq and Arnie but good teams and even average teams can plan against that, wingers can be nullified quite easily when there is no creativity or threat from anywhere else in the team and when the ball is always so slow to get to them and all forward momentum is lost and they are under pressure to perform miracles time and time again which is absurd.
After 4 years we should have eased the old guard out slowly, bringing in new players slowly over that time, refreshing the squad in key areas as necessary but we are now in a position that we are heavily reliant on them in Hughes's eyes and don't trust our new players. This for me is Hughes's biggest failing, a lack of orderly transition in the team, a lack of depth to the squad which means we have an ageing core of players which really all need replacing in one go and that's a big gamble.
I'm very grateful for a lot Hughes has done for the club and personally think he's a decent man with a good record overall but I have that feeling he's one of those managers who doesn't seem to be changing with the times and the way the pressing game and high intensity style of play has brought new challenges to the game. Our central midfield is the best example of this, static, slow, lacking creativity, pace and purpose and devoid of drive. If it was a species it would be on the endangered list for failing to adapt to the modern world.
In many ways I would be sorry to see Hughes go if he does but I know think it would be best for both sides. I'm sure he will do well at another club but if we want to progress we need to aim high and we should have the financial clout and stability to do that and attract a manager who can move us forward once more, much as Hughes did when he first came here.
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Post by adi on May 13, 2017 22:49:39 GMT
I've always liked him and thought it was unthinkable we'd be in this position, even after the...er....interesting end to last season. Doesn't sit that well to give a bloke with his track record the heave-ho after one shocker of a season after three 9ths, but he hasn't really put a solitary foot right this season, has he? For that reason, I'd struggle to raise many objections if the powers-that-be thought it was riskier to keep him than give a new guy a clean slate. Don't envy 'the family' making the call. They really need to get it right, and they have done so far so I'll back them to do it again People said the same after Claudio won the league and Leicester are doing great without him 😲
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Post by alster on May 13, 2017 23:00:03 GMT
Certainly can't carry on like that, no. I think Coates will make it very clear that it can't as well. Hughes has never changed. He's arrogant. He doesn't think he should change. The decision needs taking out of his hands. We were absolutely abject today and it's been going on for months. I think you're right. I don't mind arrogant, I think you need a certain arrogance to succeed but when that arrogance isn't working I think its far better to replace it than compromise it.
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Post by iglugluk on May 13, 2017 23:01:05 GMT
I was happy when Hughes replaced Pulis and the first two seasons were a breath of fresh air , unfortunately the rot set in around 15 months ago and two successive transfer Windows have compounded this. In my experience once a situation starts to turn sour under the leadership of any individual it is very rare that it can be turned around by that same individual. I believe the safest decision is to thank him for his efforts and replace him as soon as possible.
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Post by alster on May 13, 2017 23:04:18 GMT
I actually think it is getting to the stage that it is more risky to keep Hughes than let him go. A few weeks ago I would have said give him another season but I think that time is past now. In reality he's had 18 months to sort our decline that started after the semi-final and I have seen nothing in our play, set up and tactics that he has yet grasped what is going wrong and how to fix it. The first 2 1/2 years were fantastic, we changed our style, we weren't afraid to take teams on and we took some incredible scalps playing very good football as well as bringing in exciting players. I can't fathom what has gone wrong and why Hughes has turned his back on playing positively and trusting flair players, but he has. Our display today summed up the last 18 months with the over reliance on the fading old guard, poor substitutions, too little to late as usual, lack of trust in young players when there was little to lose, lack of tactical awareness and head in the sand approach in keeping trying the same failed tactics and formations and expecting them to suddenly work. It was obvious from the start that Arsenal's formation was allowing them to get behind our full backs and created havoc, yet this was not addressed all game, no response tactically, no change of shape ( if we even had one) and no perceptible urgency to the situation. It's been blatantly obvious to most of us that we lack pace all over the team but especially in the midfield and when you add a lack of creativity in that department as well the result is what we have been seeing. We are a team devoid of ideas at the moment with no confidence, shape, plan, purpose or resilience, we are painfully slow about the pitch and our passing and movement which improved so much under Hughes is back where it started when he took over. We have creativity in Shaq and Arnie but good teams and even average teams can plan against that, wingers can be nullified quite easily when there is no creativity or threat from anywhere else in the team and when the ball is always so slow to get to them and all forward momentum is lost and they are under pressure to perform miracles time and time again which is absurd. After 4 years we should have eased the old guard out slowly, bringing in new players slowly over that time, refreshing the squad in key areas as necessary but we are now in a position that we are heavily reliant on them in Hughes's eyes and don't trust our new players. This for me is Hughes's biggest failing, a lack of orderly transition in the team, a lack of depth to the squad which means we have an ageing core of players which really all need replacing in one go and that's a big gamble. I'm very grateful for a lot Hughes has done for the club and personally think he's a decent man with a good record overall but I have that feeling he's one of those managers who doesn't seem to be changing with the times and the way the pressing game and high intensity style of play has brought new challenges to the game. Our central midfield is the best example of this, static, slow, lacking creativity, pace and purpose and devoid of drive. If it was a species it would be on the endangered list for failing to adapt to the modern world. In many ways I would be sorry to see Hughes go if he does but I know think it would be best for both sides. I'm sure he will do well at another club but if we want to progress we need to aim high and we should have the financial clout and stability to do that and attract a manager who can move us forward once more, much as Hughes did when he first came here. Really good post mirrors my thinking to a tee.
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