The fickle mistress of reality.

[ted1965]

I have been reading the board over the last few months and as the debate over whether Mark Hughes should or should not remain as manager has been filled with venom and in some cases pure hatred. I do understand how passions get the better of people but sometimes reality is a fickle mistress. I am not defending Mark Hughes he will stand or fall by his own record and performances on the field.

If Peter Coates decides to pull the plug on Mark Hughes I assume it will be because he feels he has not got the best out of a very talented quad on paper which I would say over the last 18 months is true and not many could argue with his decision.

I am more inclined to believe he will allow Mark Hughes this summer to reshape the squad and will be expecting a much better product next season or the axe is likely to fall.

We as supporters want the club to show ambition and be in contention to win a cup or two. I am sure Peter Coates wants the same but in his view it’s more a risk free ambition or as risk free as possible in a football environment one of the reasons he gave Tony Pulis the final season. He will be wary of overstretching the clubs resources and trying to compete with the so called bigger boys so many clubs got above their limitations and suffered for it Portsmouth, Coventry, Nottingham Forest and Leeds being just a few of the many examples. Clubs who tasted some relative success in the Premier League eta driven by the belief they were bigger than they were overstretched themselves with mostly disastrous consequences. I am not saying don’t be ambitious but it has to be tempered with that fickle mistress of reality.

Pulis like Hughes virtually guarantees Premier League football at the end of the season. Hughes was supposed to deliver top half finishes which he has done every season until this season where we may fall short but in reality not by much. He wanted a more attractive brand of football, which up to last Christmas had also been delivered. I agree things have gone backwards since the back end of 2015.

There have been some mitigating circumstances with injuries to key players and to be fair a few signings that have yet to work out. Jack Butland, was a huge loss given that Lee Grant has been quality since he arrived but realistically he’s not Butland who until his injury was one of the best keepers in the league Shaq, has been a mixture of amazing skill, nagging injuries and inconsistencies basically the reason he players for Stoke City and not one of the best clubs in the world.
Every time we seemed to be getting up a head of steam we suffered some injury to a key player and couldn’t fill in the gaps. I agree that is something the manager has to answer for like Pulis before him. The squad lacks power and pace something whoever is in charge of recruitment come the summer has to address.

As supporters we want good attractive football from a side committed to Stoke City whilst those players are at the club. I don’t expect much loyalty in football anymore those days are long gone but I expect while Stoke City are paying their wages they show gull commitment to the club and its loyal supporters
I think most supporters want to see some younger players emerging into the first team pool and this is happening slowly and we do have some promising young players at the club whether many of them will make the grade only time will tell. I do feel now we are safe that it would be nice to see a few of them in and around the match day squad.

This season has been a disappointment compared to the previous three but not disastrous as some would have you think but I can see why Mark Hughes might have reason for concern if he was reading the Oatcake and the noncommittal interview given by the owner a few weeks ago. Although he may have already been told at this time he has nothing to concern himself with so Coates felt no need to defend him because he feels things will improve and he will be given the opportunity to put it right. If Hughes is here next season he needs to make sure we have a much improved pre-season one we are prepared and hit the ground running. no more excuses its not rocket science.

I have also read the names of some of the possible candidates should the axe fall in May I cant say the likely contenders would fill me with great confidence that things will get better or worse. I am sure should we change it will be another safety first appointment who will ensure Stoke achieve a comfortable league position and then see where we arter that’s achieved. Outwardly the club will talk of a European place, inwardly they will want to remain safely aboard the gravy train.

I want a more entertaining product Mark Hughes had been delivering that until 18 months ago now we show flashes of what could be between turgid slow laborious build up which leads to nothing. I am sure if Hughes is given a chance to rebuild in the summer he will be told we want a return to the exciting football or we will need to part ways. Maybe id he understands that just doing enough isn’t going to be acceptable on the field he will rethink his muddles strategies of this season.

I would love to win another major cup but we’ve only won one in our history and been involved in two other finals only one of those at Wembley. Its not popular but there’s only two trophies up for grabs that we can realistically compete for and even those aren’t just there for the taking look at the latter stages of those competitions and usually 2 or 3 of the semi- final places are taken up by so called top 6 clubs, this weekend’s FA cup being a prime example despite the romance leading up to the real nitty gritty the final will be Chelsea and Arsenal both having beaten Tottenham and Manchester City therein lies the problem for all clubs like ourselves.

I was talking with a Birmingham city supporter and mentioned that there was unrest towards Hughes, he laughed and said yeah I remember those days under a series of so called failing managers, swap you anytime you like. Mark Hughes raised expectations and may well be the victim of his own relative success here but realistically would any of you swap places with a club wondering if next season they will be in league 1, I know I wouldn’t and no that isn’t a defence of an inconsistent season just that fickle mistress of reality popping up to say it could be so much worse.

[ChesterStokie]

Great thread title.

[iglugluk]

I don't believe there is a next level for a team like Stoke , I do however think we are in real danger of being relegated next season if Hughes stays at the helm.
In my opinion it is the safer option to replace him.

[sheikhmomo]

Apr 24, 2017 10:29:56 GMT ChesterStokie said:

Great thread title.

It is a great title but just a more poetic version of Denise's Strap On

[imho]

The reality of it all is that changing a manager is a big gamble, it was a massive one when Hughes came (not many were jumping for joy - the Hughes out van anyone?) But change is sometimes required and it doesn't need to be a choice between stay as you are or risk going into L1.

The reality is that Hughes took over a squad that was solid and knew how to play a certain way and he quickly got more out of them; and for that he should be praised. However that team needs to be built upon and on the whole he's failed to do that and he's at risk from going from one of Stokes best managers​ (we looked only a player or 2 off a team who could actually win something) to one of Stokes worst (if we continue along the path we've been on the last 18 months).

The reality is that PC knows more than anyone about what's going on at the club and if he's happy with the sounds coming out of the dressing room (from both Hughes and the players) then he stays, if not he goes.

[gingerninja]

I think as Coates keeps alluding to this squad is one of the most talented we have ever assembled and he wants a better end product. We seem no closer to a plus goal difference and for such talent have been on the end of too many drubbings. We have struggled to score goals since his first season and still we do four years on. O liked the product we produced 2 seasons ago but it only shimmers in way to small doses these days. Add to this an ageing squad and we have big issues

[Davef]

Apr 24, 2017 10:57:13 GMT imho said:

The reality of it all is that changing a manager is a big gamble, it was a massive one when Hughes came (not many were jumping for joy - the Hughes out van anyone?) But change is sometimes required and it doesn't need to be a choice between stay as you are or risk going into L1.

The reality is that Hughes took over a squad that was solid and knew how to play a certain way and he quickly got more out of them; and for that he should be praised. However that team needs to be built upon and on the whole he's failed to do that and he's at risk from going from one of Stokes best managers​ (we looked only a player or 2 off a team who could actually win something) to one of Stokes worst (if we continue along the path we've been on the last 18 months).

The reality is that PC knows more than anyone about what's going on at the club and if he's happy with the sounds coming out of the dressing room (from both Hughes and the players) then he stays, if not he goes.

The absolutely one thing Mark Hughes won't be if and when he leaves the club is one of our worst managers! Deary me.

[lancashirelad]

That is a perfect reality post. One day will return to the EFL as all bar 6 will have a limited time on the gravy boat.

We have to enjoy successes like when we beat United, Liverpool etc as we could go another 30 years before beating them again.

The magic period of Dec 15 set us dreaming thinking we could play like Barcalona etc but sadly it was a flash in the pan but great at the time.

Sadly the media is all about the PL and the top six really. Life outside the media bubble is ok and you meet real football people and you have awful times losing at oxford etc but have great times like the early Macari's year when we had a team with pride and great goals from Steino and co .

Let's hope Coates and the board can lead to many more memorable PL years seeing great players and competing and occassionally beating the Powerhouses in the PL.

[stokiejoe]

Well said Ted

Passions get roused and none of us like losing, particularly if it appears the players aren't trying.

Stepping back more calmly and the biggest dissapointment this season is that we haven't achieved what we know that our squad is capable of. Lots of reasons but that is how life goes sometimes.

Still have faith in Hughes until and unless we can get someone significantly better. No guarantee that such an appointment would do better.

[Deleted]

Whatever your take on the current situation a well thought out, constructive post.....

[sufolkstokie]

And sometimes not changing is the worst option

One thing I do not buy in to is that there is not another manager out there. Admittedly some names mentioned would take us nowhere or backwards but really no one?

[expectedtoulouse]

Well constructed post, but I just can't agree with the notion that Hughes can rebuild the squad.

Why should he be afforded the trust and budget necessary to repair a squad of misfits that he's assembled himself?

None of his big money signings have worked out and there's no evidence to suggest he knows the best way forwards. He's pinning his hopes on the old guard to drag him over the line to the end of the season.

[imho]

[/quote]The absolutely one thing Mark Hughes won't be if and when he leaves the club is one of our worst managers! Deary me.[/quote]


I did say if we continue along the path we've been on, that means continue to regress - that path is relegation.

(I've seen plenty of bad manages in my time and Hughes isn't one of them yet - but anyone who spends the amount of money he has and takes the club down, would be...Not saying that would ever happen but..)

[rogerjonesisgod]

Last game Berahino misses a couple of sitter headers in the first half, Arnie sky's a penalty and their second was a massive deflection of Allen.

How is any of that Hughes' fault??

[sonichuth]

Apr 24, 2017 11:49:35 GMT rogerjonesisgod said:

Last game Berahino misses a couple of sitter headers in the first half, Arnie sky's a penalty and their second was a massive deflection of Allen.

How is any of that Hughes' fault??

You could apply this logic to almost any game we lose, though. 

He can't do anything about a missed penalty, he can do things about turgid, blunt football...or maybe he's proving he can't?

[liamo]

Apr 24, 2017 11:49:35 GMT rogerjonesisgod said:

Last game Berahino misses a couple of sitter headers in the first half, Arnie sky's a penalty and their second was a massive deflection of Allen.

How is any of that Hughes' fault??

Yeah, we've had 18 months worth of bad luck, we should cash in all the good luck we're owed next season and go for the double, there's absolutely nothing to worry about

[jimmygscfc]

Ted, you have a fine track record of writing some eminently sensible posts, but I do wonder who your audience is. The more reasonable, objective, but no less passionate, fan on here will be well-acquainted with the fickle mistress of whom you speak. The venomous and hateful you allude to won't give a monkey's for your considered words. All of the points you make have been made on more than one occasion over the last few months and I'm guessing will be reiterated ad infinitum until some sort of line is drawn. That may be because Hughes departs or he gets another Summer to resolve the many issues we have. I'm just gritting my teeth at the moment and would prefer to get to the end of the season before making any pronouncement of my own

[kidcrewbob]

Bit of an apologist diatribe despite the effort obviously put into its compilation. Don't get this "we've only won 1 cup in our history therefore we shouldn't realistically hope to even get in a final" stuff. We came close in 2011 and had it not been for injuries to key players we may well have beaten Man City - this plus the fear of change and overtones of better the devil you know - Hughes has run out of ideas, is failing to get the best out of the squad he has and cannot be trusted with the purse strings any longer. Time for a wholesale change and a foreign coach IMHO.

[Fred Ferret]

I really have struggled to judge what's best - Hughes to stay or not.

Hard headed me says let him go, nagging suspicion/intuition and doubt, says jumping ship on LMH might be going the rounds on here because we have done far better, but even with this dreadfully frustrating season, it's been than we could have conceivably hoped for.

I have a feeling Berahino is just about to knock one in. He got into two good positions and it didn't happen but he's still in there trying and we should support and believe in him. Big support on Saturday would be a nice gesture for him. When he gets a goal, he is likely to get another.

Same with Hughes, he seems not to know his best team, he's chopping and changing, pissing off players in the process. The big issue for me is that he also is still trying to work the problem. Sometimes you never know when something will work out, but you have to have faith and not give up.

I am coming round to thinking we should not give up on Les, we should show some faith and support him, particularly when he can't be enjoying life - like us.

There was nothing Hughes could do about the penalty or the 2 chances for Saido. We need to recognise that.

I am now going to revisit the Poll and change my vote - from out to in for Les.

Bloody big wobble we've had this last 12 months. Now is the time to steady the ship.

C'mon guys - swing that Poll and send a message of support.

[CBUFAWKIPWH]

Excellent post. An island of calm reflection in an ocean of over the top reaction to a relatively disappointing season.

[expectedtoulouse]

Apr 24, 2017 12:11:54 GMT Fred Ferret said:

I really have struggled to judge what's best - Hughes to stay or not.

Hard headed me says let him go, nagging suspicion/intuition and doubt, says jumping ship on LMH might be going the rounds on here because we have done far better, even with this dreadfully frustrating season, than we could have conceivably hoped for.

I have a feeling Berahino is just about to knock one in. He got into two good positions and it didn't happen but he's still in there trying and we should support and believe in him. Big support on Saturday would be a nice gesture for him. When he gets a goal, he is likely to get another.

Same with Hughes, he seems not to know his best team, he's chopping and changing, pissing off players in the process. The big issue for me is that he also is still trying to work the problem. Sometimes you never know when something will work out, but you have to have faith and not give up.

I am coming round to thinking we should not give up on Les, we should show some faith and support him, particularly when he can't be enjoying life - like us.

There was nothing Hughes could do about the penalty or the 2 chances for Saido. We need to recognise that.

I am now going to revisit the Poll and change my vote - from out to in for Les.

Bloody big wobble we've had this last 12 months. Now is the time to steady the ship.

C'mon guys - swing that Poll and send a message of support.

But you can't create a paltry 3 chances in a game and expect to take all of them and win the game!
On what grounds is your optimism based upon other than blind faith?
We don't score many, create very few chances and don't keep many clean sheets. On top of that we have a manager that doesn't know what his preferred formation is, preferred starting 11, preferred striker etc who's club record signing can't get near the pitch and marquee centre forward signing has been banished from the squad for 4 months.

[kidcrewbob]

Apr 24, 2017 12:26:49 GMT CBUFAWKIPWH said:

Excellent post. An island of calm reflection in an ocean of over the top reaction to a relatively disappointing season.

We had the period of calm reflection at the end of last season after an appalling run in from Christmas. Most agreed to giving him the benefit of the doubt for another season but its continued and arguably got worse. So this is not an "over the top" or knee-jerk reaction of
any sort but a significantly and long time considered view those wanting a change are taking.

[johnnysoul60]

A very good summing up of our current situation and how we as fans feel , nothing about premiership football is easy or straight forward most of the time , which is why I have not other than in moments of extreme post result frustration called for Hughes to go .

This decision lies with those behind the scenes and we have to hope that they are monitoring everything closely because the one thing about this league is that it is relentless , may not be the best standard but it is tough and teams are all looking to improve so if Hughes has lost any of his edge or desire for the role ( which performances do suggest at times) then that needs to be addressed .

However as I have said lots of times whist the buck stops with the manager it is not always his fault and lots of factors contribute to any situation certainly the transfer policy is a major factor now that this no longer seems to be the sole responsibility of the manager .

My big two isses with Hughes remain his teams often poor attention to detail and also the energy and fitness levels which strike me as complacency but only those in the club really know what is going on

[heworksardtho]

If there's no FFP now then old Peter needs to spend , because if we don't there we will always be a mid table club which will be boring

[greystokie]

Apr 24, 2017 13:07:55 GMT expectedtoulouse said:

Apr 24, 2017 12:11:54 GMT Fred Ferret said:

I really have struggled to judge what's best - Hughes to stay or not.

Hard headed me says let him go, nagging suspicion/intuition and doubt, says jumping ship on LMH might be going the rounds on here because we have done far better, even with this dreadfully frustrating season, than we could have conceivably hoped for.

I have a feeling Berahino is just about to knock one in. He got into two good positions and it didn't happen but he's still in there trying and we should support and believe in him. Big support on Saturday would be a nice gesture for him. When he gets a goal, he is likely to get another.

Same with Hughes, he seems not to know his best team, he's chopping and changing, pissing off players in the process. The big issue for me is that he also is still trying to work the problem. Sometimes you never know when something will work out, but you have to have faith and not give up.

I am coming round to thinking we should not give up on Les, we should show some faith and support him, particularly when he can't be enjoying life - like us.

There was nothing Hughes could do about the penalty or the 2 chances for Saido. We need to recognise that.

I am now going to revisit the Poll and change my vote - from out to in for Les.

Bloody big wobble we've had this last 12 months. Now is the time to steady the ship.

C'mon guys - swing that Poll and send a message of support.

But you can't create a paltry 3 chances in a game and expect to take all of them and win the game!
On what grounds is your optimism based upon other than blind faith?
We don't score many, create very few chances and don't keep many clean sheets. On top of that we have a manager that doesn't know what his preferred formation is, preferred starting 11, preferred striker etc who's club record signing can't get near the pitch and marquee centre forward signing has been banished from the squad for 4 months.

You are quite right. We can look at the last game and speculate that if Arnie had scored the penalty we may have gone on to win the game but in reality a longer perspective has to be taken. I haven't, yet, declared myself to be in the Hughes Out camp but I am rapidly losing faith in the guy. At this late stage he still doesn't know his best formation and strategy never mind what his best starting eleven is. His best signings have those that have been forced or last minute Eg Grant and Martins Indi and his substitutions, more often than not, leave me dumbfounded. He's got three top 10 finishes in the bank but I am slowly coming to the conclusion that when the going starts to get really tough that he can't come up with the right solutions.

[superheroantonius]

The two extreme views are

Hughes is a class act , top manager , will sort it out ... blah blah
Hughes is an idiot , he's clueless blah blah

And I doubt many subscribe to either

The problem for Hughes is the middle ground ... he has signed some decent players but he can't get them to play as a team

The middle ground is actually very damning for Hughes ... If he can't get them to play as a team , why is he manager ?

[Godo]

A very sobering and well constructed but on the pitch for 75% of the time this season I have seen a team that lacks any flow or pattern going forward, a team that cannot defend even basic set plays or long balls down the middle, a constant changing of personnel and formations and a team that looks unfit and quite unmotivated. The player recruitment has been bewildering and looking at the decision to renew contracts for players who haven't looked good enough and no clear prioritisation of buying players in areas where we are inadequate I can only conclude that it needs a big change in management, coaching and at Director of football level. We now have an unbalanced, aging injury prone squad full of deadwood and that's the "reality" I feel we need to deal with.

[JoeinOz]

Good post Ted. Good to read your words again.

[rogerjonesisgod]

Apr 24, 2017 11:56:10 GMT sonichuth said:

Apr 24, 2017 11:49:35 GMT rogerjonesisgod said:

Last game Berahino misses a couple of sitter headers in the first half, Arnie sky's a penalty and their second was a massive deflection of Allen.

How is any of that Hughes' fault??

You could apply this logic to almost any game we lose, though. 

He can't do anything about a missed penalty, he can do things about turgid, blunt football...or maybe he's proving he can't?

Exactly.
But for a decent pair of shooting boots and a bit of 'luck' our points total could be much better.
The turgid shit games will always happen. Chelsea and Man City are crap now and again.
It's just that we haven't won or even 'won ugly' enough in between to keep the natives happy. IMHO.

[Fred Ferret]

Apr 24, 2017 13:07:55 GMT expectedtoulouse said:

Apr 24, 2017 12:11:54 GMT Fred Ferret said:

I really have struggled to judge what's best - Hughes to stay or not.

Hard headed me says let him go, nagging suspicion/intuition and doubt, says jumping ship on LMH might be going the rounds on here because we have done far better, but even with this dreadfully frustrating season, it's been better than we could have conceivably hoped for.

I have a feeling Berahino is just about to knock one in. He got into two good positions and it didn't happen but he's still in there trying and we should support and believe in him. Big support on Saturday would be a nice gesture for him. When he gets a goal, he is likely to get another.

Same with Hughes, he seems not to know his best team, he's chopping and changing, pissing off players in the process. The big issue for me is that he also is still trying to work the problem. Sometimes you never know when something will work out, but you have to have faith and not give up.

I am coming round to thinking we should not give up on Les, we should show some faith and support him, particularly when he can't be enjoying life - like us.

There was nothing Hughes could do about the penalty or the 2 chances for Saido. We need to recognise that.

I am now going to revisit the Poll and change my vote - from out to in for Les.

Bloody big wobble we've had this last 12 months. Now is the time to steady the ship.

C'mon guys - swing that Poll and send a message of support.

But you can't create a paltry 3 chances in a game and expect to take all of them and win the game!
On what grounds is your optimism based upon other than blind faith?
We don't score many, create very few chances and don't keep many clean sheets. On top of that we have a manager that doesn't know what his preferred formation is, preferred starting 11, preferred striker etc who's club record signing can't get near the pitch and marquee centre forward signing has been banished from the squad for 4 months.

Agree wholeheartedly with your first sentence.

"On what grounds ... other than blind faith "? Re-read my 2nd para . . . and then read the rest.