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Post by nicholasjalcock on Apr 4, 2017 8:24:44 GMT
You can explain anything you like Todge; it won't make you any more knowledgeable or right What you've written above is complete gibberish When you put 3 smileys after your post. Is that to convince yourself you've said something to win an argument? Because its only working in your eyes I think it is the position as Gibraltar is part of the U.K. and Spain as one of the 27 then it could veto anything they didn't like! The ukippers and Tory Eurosceptics are struggling because none of these potential difficulties was mentioned during the Referendum. It was all sold as 'easy peasy'! Now, they're trying to distract the public with all this tub thumping!
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Post by manmarking on Apr 4, 2017 8:29:35 GMT
You can explain anything you like Todge; it won't make you any more knowledgeable or right What you've written above is complete gibberish When you put 3 smileys after your post. Is that to convince yourself you've said something to win an argument? Because its only working in your eyes No fraise, it's because I'm in character you great eejit
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Post by manmarking on Apr 4, 2017 8:35:23 GMT
You can explain anything you like Todge; it won't make you any more knowledgeable or right What you've written above is complete gibberish Spain could no more veto a deal on the basis that it includes Stoke than they could veto a deal on the basis it includes Gibraltar - they are both internationally recognised as being under UK jurisdiction. It's also hugely hypocritical given the fact they hold Ceuta and Melilla. Spain can say and do whatever it likes, just like we can. These negotiations are dog eat dog. And once we've left, Spain can ( and probably will) play even more funny buggers at the border than it already does. The EU is bound to side with Spain wherever humanly possible too. Realpolitik innit.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Apr 4, 2017 9:11:04 GMT
When you put 3 smileys after your post. Is that to convince yourself you've said something to win an argument? Because its only working in your eyes I think it is the position as Gibraltar is part of the U.K. and Spain as one of the 27 then it could veto anything they didn't like! The ukippers and Tory Eurosceptics are struggling because none of these potential difficulties was mentioned during the Referendum. It was all sold as 'easy peasy'! Now, they're trying to distract the public with all this tub thumping! Do you honestly believe that it was not mentioned? Only a fraction of what goes on actually gets into the selective media. It even got a mention , pre Brexit, on the Oatcake, by a Ukipper. oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/257541/gibraltar-falklands
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Apr 4, 2017 9:28:28 GMT
EU's draft position -
"After the United Kingdom leaves the Union, no agreement between the EU and the United Kingdom may apply to the territory of Gibraltar without the agreement between the Kingdom of Spain and the United Kingdom."
Deliberately divisive, verging on aggressive. Express mention of Spain being involved in Gibraltar's economic future. The EU have stated their top priority is citizens rights but under the guise of economics they're very happy to threaten to leave the fate of Gibraltarians until after the negotiations. Shameful.
I've read much criticism on May's A50 letter and how it didn't mention Gibraltar. It doesn't mention the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands or St Helena either. I also read the usual apologists describing the EU's opening gambit as 'not surprising' or 'dog eat dog' but little criticism. Also shameful.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Apr 4, 2017 9:44:05 GMT
EU's draft position - "After the United Kingdom leaves the Union, no agreement between the EU and the United Kingdom may apply to the territory of Gibraltar without the agreement between the Kingdom of Spain and the United Kingdom."But, as Spain is one of the 27 that has to agree, the E.U. is stating the obvious! Even Lithuania, Denmark et al. have to agree to anything re:Gibraltar!
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Post by harryburrows on Apr 4, 2017 9:46:49 GMT
EU's draft position - "After the United Kingdom leaves the Union, no agreement between the EU and the United Kingdom may apply to the territory of Gibraltar without the agreement between the Kingdom of Spain and the United Kingdom."Sounds like the EU and Spain are making it up as they go along . I would hazard a guess that legally this is unworkable. The other can of worms is Cyprus , if turkey applied to join what would they do about the occupation of northern Cyprus
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Post by Timmypotter on Apr 4, 2017 9:49:56 GMT
Spain could no more veto a deal on the basis that it includes Stoke than they could veto a deal on the basis it includes Gibraltar - they are both internationally recognised as being under UK jurisdiction. It's also hugely hypocritical given the fact they hold Ceuta and Melilla. Spain can say and do whatever it likes, just like we can. These negotiations are dog eat dog. And once we've left, Spain can ( and probably will) play even more funny buggers at the border than it already does. The EU is bound to side with Spain wherever humanly possible too. Realpolitik innit. Quite. A mate of mine worked as a border guard on the Gib side so I know the daft games that often get played. Most Gibraltarians keep a car in one of many huge parks in La Linea so they don't have to put up with the constant queues to get through the border by car. They're well used to putting up with the bollocks that comes from Madrid. It doesn't change the fact that that Gib is UK sovereign territory, and the EU will treat it as such regardless of what they say now.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Apr 4, 2017 9:51:59 GMT
I think it is the position as Gibraltar is part of the U.K. and Spain as one of the 27 then it could veto anything they didn't like! The ukippers and Tory Eurosceptics are struggling because none of these potential difficulties was mentioned during the Referendum. It was all sold as 'easy peasy'! Now, they're trying to distract the public with all this tub thumping! Do you honestly believe that it was not mentioned? Only a fraction of what goes on actually gets into the selective media. It even got a mention , pre Brexit, on the Oatcake, by a Ukipper. oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/257541/gibraltar-falklandsWhy did The Falklands rate a mention? Argentina is not in the E.U. and the U.K. does not have a land border with Argentina? What appears to be a more serious problem is Spain saying it wouldn't veto Scotland staying in the E.U.. We've been told countless times Spain because of Catalonian separatism, would never countenance this! Now, this really threatens to undermine May's position and her 'hard Brexit'!
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Apr 4, 2017 9:58:55 GMT
EU's draft position - "After the United Kingdom leaves the Union, no agreement between the EU and the United Kingdom may apply to the territory of Gibraltar without the agreement between the Kingdom of Spain and the United Kingdom."But, as Spain is one of the 27 that has to agree, the E.U. is stating the obvious! Even Lithuania, Denmark et al. have to agree to anything re:Gibraltar! Is there something in the water this morning ?? " After the United Kingdom leaves the Union..." So that's after the negotiations and we've officially left. Whatever deal we have in place (agreed by Lithuania, Denmark et al) does not apply to Gibraltar unless that is expressly agreed between the Spanish Government and the UK. They're trying to create two separate agreements to the same trade deal. One between the UK and the other 27 and another between the UK and the Spanish Government which brings Gibraltar into the mix.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Apr 4, 2017 10:08:21 GMT
But, as Spain is one of the 27 that has to agree, the E.U. is stating the obvious! Even Lithuania, Denmark et al. have to agree to anything re:Gibraltar! Is there something in the water this morning ?? " After the United Kingdom leaves the Union..." So that's after the negotiations and we've officially left. Whatever deal we have in place (agreed by Lithuania, Denmark et al) does not apply to Gibraltar unless that is expressly agreed between the Spanish Government and the UK. They're trying to create two separate agreements to the same trade deal. One between the UK and the other 27 and another between the UK and the Spanish Government which brings Gibraltar into the mix. But the E.U. can't have separate trade deals between member states and any other country! It is not allowed under E.U. rules! Spain or any other E.U. country has a veto over trade deals with non E.U. countries hence all the recent difficulties between the E.U. and Canada with Belgium holding things up!
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Gibralter
Apr 4, 2017 10:22:35 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Apr 4, 2017 10:22:35 GMT
Why did The Falklands rate a mention? Argentina is not in the E.U. and the U.K. does not have a land border with Argentina? What appears to be a more serious problem is Spain saying it wouldn't veto Scotland staying in the E.U.. We've been told countless times Spain because of Catalonian separatism, would never countenance this! Now, this really threatens to undermine May's position and her 'hard Brexit'! Specifically I am.answeing your incorrect point about Gibraltar not getting a mention, clearly wrong. Brexit marks a tumultuous change, as part of other global changes...I mention the Falklands because Spain speaks to Argentine on what they perceive to be a common problem....if any sort of dipclimatic pressure can be put on the UK , Spain will work with Argentine
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Gibralter
Apr 4, 2017 10:26:06 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Apr 4, 2017 10:26:06 GMT
Why did The Falklands rate a mention? Argentina is not in the E.U. and the U.K. does not have a land border with Argentina? What appears to be a more serious problem is Spain saying it wouldn't veto Scotland staying in the E.U.. We've been told countless times Spain because of Catalonian separatism, would never countenance this! Now, this really threatens to undermine May's position and her 'hard Brexit'! Specifically I am.answeing your incorrect point about Gibraltar not getting a mention, clearly wrong. Brexit marks a tumultuous change, as part of other global changes...I mention the Falklands because Spain speaks to Argentine on what they perceive to be a common problem....if any sort of diplomatic pressure can be put on the UK , Spain will work with Argentine
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Gibralter
Apr 4, 2017 10:28:38 GMT
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Post by manmarking on Apr 4, 2017 10:28:38 GMT
EU's draft position - "After the United Kingdom leaves the Union, no agreement between the EU and the United Kingdom may apply to the territory of Gibraltar without the agreement between the Kingdom of Spain and the United Kingdom."
Deliberately divisive, verging on aggressive. Express mention of Spain being involved in Gibraltar's economic future. The EU have stated their top priority is citizens rights but under the guise of economics they're very happy to threaten to leave the fate of Gibraltarians until after the negotiations. Shameful. I've read much criticism on May's A50 letter and how it didn't mention Gibraltar. It doesn't mention the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands or St Helena either. I also read the usual apologists describing the EU's opening gambit as 'not surprising' or 'dog eat dog' but little criticism. Also shameful. I voted Leave, you soft fuck. I'm just able to see things for what they are without getting all emotional and teary-eyed-nationalist about them. Fuck off back to your "Keep Calm and Carry on Ranting"-branded box and look up "self-awareness" in the dictionary. You're one of the most pathetic, fawning apologists going. Provided, of course, that the thing you're apologising for is right-wing and/or racist
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Apr 4, 2017 10:30:54 GMT
Is there something in the water this morning ?? " After the United Kingdom leaves the Union..." So that's after the negotiations and we've officially left. Whatever deal we have in place (agreed by Lithuania, Denmark et al) does not apply to Gibraltar unless that is expressly agreed between the Spanish Government and the UK. They're trying to create two separate agreements to the same trade deal. One between the UK and the other 27 and another between the UK and the Spanish Government which brings Gibraltar into the mix. But the E.U. can't have separate trade deals between member states and any other country! It is not allowed under E.U. rules! Spain or any other E.U. country has a veto over trade deals with non E.U. countries hence all the recent difficulties between the E.U. and Canada with Belgium holding things up! Crikey Nicholas speed up mate. It's not a separate trade deal it's the same trade deal. There will be only one trade between the 27 and the UK. (sounds like Highlander ) But..... The EU are threatening that the final trade deal will not include Gibraltar. So the 27 agree a deal, including Spain for the UK only. There is then to be an additional/supplementary/separate agreement from Spain to include Gibraltar, into the same trade deal. That's the bollocks bit. That's the divisive and aggressive caveat that I disagree with.
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Gibralter
Apr 4, 2017 10:47:17 GMT
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Post by Timmypotter on Apr 4, 2017 10:47:17 GMT
Is there something in the water this morning ?? " After the United Kingdom leaves the Union..." So that's after the negotiations and we've officially left. Whatever deal we have in place (agreed by Lithuania, Denmark et al) does not apply to Gibraltar unless that is expressly agreed between the Spanish Government and the UK. They're trying to create two separate agreements to the same trade deal. One between the UK and the other 27 and another between the UK and the Spanish Government which brings Gibraltar into the mix. But the E.U. can't have separate trade deals between member states and any other country! It is not allowed under E.U. rules! Spain or any other E.U. country has a veto over trade deals with non E.U. countries hence all the recent difficulties between the E.U. and Canada with Belgium holding things up! It really is a load of nonsense isn't it. I think the EU will really struggle to present a unified front in these negotiations. On the whole its members like the status quo so something is going to have to give.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Apr 4, 2017 10:47:41 GMT
EU's draft position - "After the United Kingdom leaves the Union, no agreement between the EU and the United Kingdom may apply to the territory of Gibraltar without the agreement between the Kingdom of Spain and the United Kingdom."
Deliberately divisive, verging on aggressive. Express mention of Spain being involved in Gibraltar's economic future. The EU have stated their top priority is citizens rights but under the guise of economics they're very happy to threaten to leave the fate of Gibraltarians until after the negotiations. Shameful. I've read much criticism on May's A50 letter and how it didn't mention Gibraltar. It doesn't mention the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands or St Helena either. I also read the usual apologists describing the EU's opening gambit as 'not surprising' or 'dog eat dog' but little criticism. Also shameful. I voted Leave, you soft fuck. I'm just able to see things for what they are without getting all emotional and teary-eyed-nationalist about them. Fuck off back to your "Keep Calm and Carry on Ranting"-branded box and look up "self-awareness" in the dictionary. You're one of the most pathetic, fawning apologists going. Provided, of course, that the thing you're apologising for is right-wing and/or racist Deary me this is a poor effort mate. This character that you're 'in' this morning is far too aggressive. It's almost up to your post pub offerings. I'm not sure if it's just your adrenaline level after Jeremy Kyle but you'll have to smarten this act up. Nowhere near as good as some of your others. "Fuck off" "pathetic" "fawning apologist" "racist". No mate. Too much too soon. You need to let the character traits grow organically before posting the abuse. Have a little bit of patience with the craft. You're snatching at it. I'm afraid it's a D- today but hopefully you'll go away and smooth out some of those wrinkles.
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Gibralter
Apr 4, 2017 11:11:01 GMT
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Post by manmarking on Apr 4, 2017 11:11:01 GMT
I voted Leave, you soft fuck. I'm just able to see things for what they are without getting all emotional and teary-eyed-nationalist about them. Fuck off back to your "Keep Calm and Carry on Ranting"-branded box and look up "self-awareness" in the dictionary. You're one of the most pathetic, fawning apologists going. Provided, of course, that the thing you're apologising for is right-wing and/or racist Deary me this is a poor effort mate. This character that you're 'in' this morning is far too aggressive. It's almost up to your post pub offerings. I'm not sure if it's just your adrenaline level after Jeremy Kyle but you'll have to smarten this act up. Nowhere near as good as some of your others. "Fuck off" "pathetic" "fawning apologist" "racist". No mate. Too much too soon. You need to let the character traits grow organically before posting the abuse. Have a little bit of patience with the craft. You're snatching at it. I'm afraid it's a D- today but hopefully you'll go away and smooth out some of those wrinkles. Quick translation: you realise you were wrong about the negotiating position earlier. Don't worry, your secret's safe with me Good luck dodging all those violent hordes of blacks on your way to the Con Club, Todgerz
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Apr 4, 2017 11:28:12 GMT
But the E.U. can't have separate trade deals between member states and any other country! It is not allowed under E.U. rules! Spain or any other E.U. country has a veto over trade deals with non E.U. countries hence all the recent difficulties between the E.U. and Canada with Belgium holding things up! Crikey Nicholas speed up mate. It's not a separate trade deal it's the same trade deal. There will be only one trade between the 27 and the UK. (sounds like Highlander ) But..... The EU are threatening that the final trade deal will not include Gibraltar. So the 27 agree a deal, including Spain for the UK only. There is then to be an additional/supplementary/separate agreement from Spain to include Gibraltar, into the same trade deal. That's the bollocks bit. That's the divisive and aggressive caveat that I disagree with. But if a final trade deal doesn't include Gibraltar , which is part of the U.K., then we wouldn't conclude one! It is illogical to to have a trade deal which then has to have another trade deal as a subset. If what the E.U. is saying we will put obstacles in the way of a successful negotiation then we will either 1.go to W.T.O. rules or 2. sign up to the E.U. terms and drop Gibraltar in the fertiliser. In the end I suspect a reasonable U.K.-E.U. deal will include Gibraltar. So, no need for knicker-wetting! Surely, you must have confidence in Theresa May's ability? After all, any P.M. who can go to war with supra-national Cadbury's over Easter Eggs must have your complete confidence!
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Gibralter
Apr 4, 2017 11:47:55 GMT
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Post by Timmypotter on Apr 4, 2017 11:47:55 GMT
Crikey Nicholas speed up mate. It's not a separate trade deal it's the same trade deal. There will be only one trade between the 27 and the UK. (sounds like Highlander ) But..... The EU are threatening that the final trade deal will not include Gibraltar. So the 27 agree a deal, including Spain for the UK only. There is then to be an additional/supplementary/separate agreement from Spain to include Gibraltar, into the same trade deal. That's the bollocks bit. That's the divisive and aggressive caveat that I disagree with. But if a final trade deal doesn't include Gibraltar , which is part of the U.K., then we wouldn't conclude one! It is illogical to to have a trade deal which then has to have another trade deal as a subset. If what the E.U. is saying we will put obstacles in the way of a successful negotiation then we will either 1.go to W.T.O. rules or 2. sign up to the E.U. terms and drop Gibraltar in the fertiliser. In the end I suspect a reasonable U.K.-E.U. deal will include Gibraltar. So, no need for knicker-wetting! Surely, you must have confidence in Theresa May's ability? After all, any P.M. who can go to war with supra-national Cadbury's over Easter Eggs must have your complete confidence! On a technical point, Gib isn't part of the UK.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Apr 4, 2017 11:54:38 GMT
Crikey Nicholas speed up mate. It's not a separate trade deal it's the same trade deal. There will be only one trade between the 27 and the UK. (sounds like Highlander ) But..... The EU are threatening that the final trade deal will not include Gibraltar. So the 27 agree a deal, including Spain for the UK only. There is then to be an additional/supplementary/separate agreement from Spain to include Gibraltar, into the same trade deal. That's the bollocks bit. That's the divisive and aggressive caveat that I disagree with. But if a final trade deal doesn't include Gibraltar , which is part of the U.K., then we wouldn't conclude one! It is illogical to to have a trade deal which then has to have another trade deal as a subset. If what the E.U. is saying we will put obstacles in the way of a successful negotiation then we will either 1.go to W.T.O. rules or 2. sign up to the E.U. terms and drop Gibraltar in the fertiliser. In the end I suspect a reasonable U.K.-E.U. deal will include Gibraltar. So, no need for knicker-wetting! Surely, you must have confidence in Theresa May's ability? After all, any P.M. who can go to war with supra-national Cadbury's over Easter Eggs must have your complete confidence! I do have confidence in Mrs May's abilities and I have called this EU clause bollocks from the beginning. But logic hasn't stopped the EU publishing this draft clause and stirring divisive feelings with some commentators using it to criticise May's letter. Something which I feel is wrong and the lack of criticism towards the EU from the MSM and some on here is shameful. As I type Hilary Benn is on TV saying 'of course we want to include Gibraltar but we don't know if the EU will agree to this'. NOT..... "this is bollocks from the EU" or "this is illogical" or "this is the EU pushing us all towards a WTO deal". I guess Benn the remainer silently 'supporting' the EU through his non-criticism will be one of many examples of the "I respect the decision of the Referendum but..." type of politics over the next couple of years. As I said, shameful.
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Gibralter
Apr 4, 2017 12:32:14 GMT
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Post by manmarking on Apr 4, 2017 12:32:14 GMT
Spain can say and do whatever it likes, just like we can. These negotiations are dog eat dog. And once we've left, Spain can ( and probably will) play even more funny buggers at the border than it already does. The EU is bound to side with Spain wherever humanly possible too. Realpolitik innit. Quite. A mate of mine worked as a border guard on the Gib side so I know the daft games that often get played. Most Gibraltarians keep a car in one of many huge parks in La Linea so they don't have to put up with the constant queues to get through the border by car. They're well used to putting up with the bollocks that comes from Madrid. It doesn't change the fact that that Gib is UK sovereign territory, and the EU will treat it as such regardless of what they say now. The EU will recognise our sovereign territory but after we've left, realistically they will let Spain say/do whatever it likes up to a point. There are people on here and on the backbenches of the Tory party that will get all het up about that. But the pragmatic reality of leaving the EU was always going to be that some things would become easier and some more difficult. You can't make a tortilla without breaking some eggs and all that
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Gibralter
Apr 4, 2017 14:03:22 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Apr 4, 2017 14:03:22 GMT
But if a final trade deal doesn't include Gibraltar , which is part of the U.K., then we wouldn't conclude one! It is illogical to to have a trade deal which then has to have another trade deal as a subset. If what the E.U. is saying we will put obstacles in the way of a successful negotiation then we will either 1.go to W.T.O. rules or 2. sign up to the E.U. terms and drop Gibraltar in the fertiliser. In the end I suspect a reasonable U.K.-E.U. deal will include Gibraltar. So, no need for knicker-wetting! Surely, you must have confidence in Theresa May's ability? After all, any P.M. who can go to war with supra-national Cadbury's over Easter Eggs must have your complete confidence! I do have confidence in Mrs May's abilities and I have called this EU clause bollocks from the beginning. But logic hasn't stopped the EU publishing this draft clause and stirring divisive feelings with some commentators using it to criticise May's letter. Something which I feel is wrong and the lack of criticism towards the EU from the MSM and some on here is shameful. As I type Hilary Benn is on TV saying 'of course we want to include Gibraltar but we don't know if the EU will agree to this'. NOT..... "this is bollocks from the EU" or "this is illogical" or "this is the EU pushing us all towards a WTO deal". I guess Benn the remainer silently 'supporting' the EU through his non-criticism will be one of many examples of the "I respect the decision of the Referendum but..." type of politics over the next couple of years. As I said, shameful. Correct again Roger, David Davis and Jeremy Cornyn said exactly the same to me , in the pub last night( or at least they told me they were David and Jeremy)
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Apr 4, 2017 14:36:21 GMT
Really!? Today? Just an accident right. No doubt The Sun will run another inflammatory front page and Madrid will condescendingly tell the UK to calm down. I guess I'll be accused of over reaction and somehow May will get the blame. Whatever.
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Gibralter
Apr 4, 2017 15:04:45 GMT
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Post by followyoudown on Apr 4, 2017 15:04:45 GMT
Really!? Today? Just an accident right. No doubt The Sun will run another inflammatory front page and Madrid will condescendingly tell the UK to calm down. I guess I'll be accused of over reaction and somehow May will get the blame. Whatever. It happens quite regularly I believe on average 20-40 times a year I read somewhere this morning, no coincidence it happened today i'm sure. Facts aren't important to the ultra remainers, much amusement and scorn was being poured on the supposed £500m cost of bringing back blue passports only for it to turn out that the £500m cost is to redesign passports to keep ahead of forgers and happens every 5 years anyway.
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Gibralter
Apr 4, 2017 15:40:55 GMT
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Post by manmarking on Apr 4, 2017 15:40:55 GMT
Really!? Today? Just an accident right. No doubt The Sun will run another inflammatory front page and Madrid will condescendingly tell the UK to calm down. I guess I'll be accused of over reaction and somehow May will get the blame. Whatever. We do it all the time to other countries including Spain. You reap what you sow. It's the international equivalent of #BANTZ. Has anyone died? When is Michael Howard sending in the task force?
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Apr 4, 2017 16:26:18 GMT
Really!? Today? Just an accident right. No doubt The Sun will run another inflammatory front page and Madrid will condescendingly tell the UK to calm down. I guess I'll be accused of over reaction and somehow May will get the blame. Whatever. It happens quite regularly I believe on average 20-40 times a year I read somewhere this morning, no coincidence it happened today i'm sure. Facts aren't important to the ultra remainers, much amusement and scorn was being poured on the supposed £500m cost of bringing back blue passports only for it to turn out that the £500m cost is to redesign passports to keep ahead of forgers and happens every 5 years anyway. "facts aren't important to the ultra remainers"? That's bloody rich coming from a ultra Tory!
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