|
Post by dutchstokie on Mar 21, 2017 17:26:25 GMT
The late 50s and early 60s saw Mandela sanction and carry out some of the worst crimes imaginable. Go have a read, it's all there on t'interweb It just grates my gears when people start to wave the 'freedom fighter banner without learning their history and learning about what he did One of the biggest murderers to walk the earth You would defend apartheid??? you are white, so if you lived in South Africa, you would have supported and took part in apatheid against blacks? you would not recognise blacks in south africa to be part of the political process? is the apartheid regime 'one of the biggest murderers to walk the earth'? Match of the Day: fighting the corner of the under dog and the small clubs since 1964 I wouldn't go around butchering people like Mandela did if that's what you mean......
|
|
|
Post by mattador78 on Mar 21, 2017 17:46:34 GMT
No
|
|
|
Post by Waggy on Mar 21, 2017 18:14:41 GMT
I have already thought about going the other way but that would confirm it. Waggy. Are we talking politics here? Aye, what else.
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Mar 21, 2017 18:28:50 GMT
In court this week is a 75 year old man accused of murder. He is an ex soldier and the case is a historic crime in NI to decide wether the killing was lawful in the eyes of the rules of engagement at the time. I don't condone terrorism and I won't condone soldiers breaking the correct rules of engagement but to me Good Friday is so ridiculously and immorally one sided that for any good McGuinness may have done he should be remembered for his The judge in Antrim has discharged him on manslaghter or murder but remanded him to a trial at Belfast crown court on a charge of GBH with intent. The punishment for this can be life. Now obviously a 75 year old man may not get life if found guilty due to many circumstances. But until ALL sides accept the wrongs of the past they will never move on And dont kid yourself paramilitary organisations of all sides over there still exist ready to rise again. In the meantime they are just organised criminals engaging in many acts. Good Friday may be peace on the face of it but there is still an undercurrent of revenge, bigotry, crime and all sorts. Until that's sorted they will never move on
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Mar 21, 2017 18:39:35 GMT
You would defend apartheid??? you are white, so if you lived in South Africa, you would have supported and took part in apatheid against blacks? you would not recognise blacks in south africa to be part of the political process? is the apartheid regime 'one of the biggest murderers to walk the earth'? Match of the Day: fighting the corner of the under dog and the small clubs since 1964 I wouldn't go around butchering people like Mandela did if that's what you mean...... Many don't like to acknowledge or accept that Mandela was a man with blood on his hands, he organised the murder of many innocent people that is never acceptable no matter the circumstances, yet he was held up as a symbol of peace.
|
|
|
Post by wizzardofdribble on Mar 21, 2017 18:48:25 GMT
If we're going to start moralising then nots forget the Dirty War in Northern Ireland.
When MI5 or RUC Special Branch 'Handlers' ran agents within the IRA/INLA and UVF/UDA/UFF.
It is a fact that some of these people were set up by us and sacrificed to protect our sources.
Of course McGuiness did some heinous things..he was OC of Northern Command when the atrocious Enniskillen Bomb went off and allegedly when Mountbatten was killed and 18 paras were blown to pieces at Warrenpoint in two controlled explosions (both on the same day)
He was one of the few people that the Provos would listen to and was very infuencial in the run up to & implementation of the Good Friday Agreement.
Paramilitaries are still active in the North of Ireland especially in Derry mainly involved in drugs & organized crime.
McGuiness was know in Derry as a player you wouldn't mess with and was never afraid to put a bullet into someones head. Better still set up someone else to do it.
Just like some of our units (14 int for one) used to do especially early days with some of our methods of operation and some units operating out of Palace Barracks in Belfast.
Units not bound by the Yellow Card.
The first casualty of War is Truth.
Republicans won the propaganda War in Ireland and British Soldiers then ended up in court.
But McGuiness believed in what he fought for and was under constant threat still living in the Bogside from dissident republicans. The Real IRA as they call themselves.
Michael Oatley, a senior figure inside British Intelligence believed McGuiness to be genuine,sincere, very fit & intelligent but also capable of murder without compunction.
Ideal Special Forces material
Martin McGuiness RIP
|
|
|
Post by boothenboy75 on Mar 21, 2017 18:52:27 GMT
The usual suspects have a strange view of things. They'd piss on the grave of one of our greatest PM's but murder innocent British civilians and members of their own armed forces and they forgive, forget and lionize. Strange.
|
|
|
Post by capto on Mar 21, 2017 19:24:04 GMT
The usual suspects have a strange view of things. They'd piss on the grave of one of our greatest PM's but murder innocent British civilians and members of their own armed forces and they forgive, forget and lionize. Strange. Can you expand? Who exactly are 'the usual suspects'? Who is 'one of our greatest PM's? And who is pissing on their grave? If you mean by murdering innocent British civilians and members of the armed forces, do you mean the IRA and PIRA? May I pose a question? If you were born a catholic in Belfast or Derry would you still be saying the same thing? The problem in Ireland is surely a failure of imperialist British foreign policy? Don't the Irish have a right for self determination and not have rule imposed on them from a distant uncaring country? Match of the Day: fighting the corner of the under dog and the small clubs since 1964
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2017 20:05:12 GMT
The usual suspects have a strange view of things. They'd piss on the grave of one of our greatest PM's but murder innocent British civilians and members of their own armed forces and they forgive, forget and lionize. Strange. You mean the same PM who mixed with the likes of Pinochet, refusing to condemn his torturous regime? It's a tangled web we weave......
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Mar 21, 2017 20:43:39 GMT
Murdering fenian terrorist bastard, may he burn in hell with the rest of the IRA, Gerry Adams soon to follow hopefully. did you need to use the work Fenian, or did you particularly want to highlight your ignorant prejudice? Yes because this murdering scum bag bastard was indeed a Fenian, that is a fact nothing to do with prejudice he was part of the Fenian movement, thankfully he is not anymore.
|
|
|
Post by Boothen on Mar 21, 2017 20:51:05 GMT
Here's hoping that he was in excruciating pain for his last moments on this planet. The cunt was a scumbag of the highest order. Good riddance to bad rubbish!
|
|
|
Post by woodstein on Mar 21, 2017 21:07:08 GMT
Many of those who go on about the resented British involvement in Ireland are happy to live here in Britain.
|
|
|
Post by samba :) on Mar 21, 2017 21:18:02 GMT
👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏
|
|
|
Post by robstokie on Mar 21, 2017 21:34:47 GMT
Vile human being, we are all better off without him in our world. Hope his corpse is chucked in the sewer amongst his fellow vermin.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Mar 21, 2017 22:01:58 GMT
Vile human being, we are all better off without him in our world. Hope his corpse is chucked in the sewer amongst his fellow vermin. The rats would start a protest lead of course by rabble rousing tramp Red Jez, I bet the terrorist loving c*nt is in mourning today. Gerry Adams would be nice soon
|
|
|
Post by AlbertTatlock on Mar 21, 2017 23:54:40 GMT
I was almost sick when I watched the news and that other murdering terrorist (Blair) came on to defend this cunt. I just hope McGuinness saves a seat next to him in hell for him. As much as I've not got much time for Tebbit it was good to see him getting his views aired on the news. Gouranga.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2017 1:37:45 GMT
I was almost sick when I watched the news and that other murdering terrorist (Blair) came on to defend this cunt. I just hope McGuinness saves a seat next to him in hell for him. As much as I've not got much time for Tebbit it was good to see him getting his views aired on the news. Gouranga. Loved the Tebbit tweets...Good on ya Norm, and revel in your glory.
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Mar 22, 2017 8:22:14 GMT
I was almost sick when I watched the news and that other murdering terrorist (Blair) came on to defend this cunt. I just hope McGuinness saves a seat next to him in hell for him. As much as I've not got much time for Tebbit it was good to see him getting his views aired on the news. Gouranga. Birds of a feather stick together, both escaped the punishment they deserved fuckin sickening.
|
|
|
Post by auntiegeorge on Mar 22, 2017 8:29:30 GMT
A hugely complex character. Yes, he was a murdering bastard in his youth - and of course he remains responsible for those murders long after they happened. On the other hand, without him, the (relative) peace in Northern Ireland that we have now would probably not have happened and Sinn Fein would still have been pursuing their ambitions with a gun rather than with the ballot box and thousands more people would have died. I think Colin Parry (the father of Tim, killed in the Warrington bombings) has made a lot of sense in his comments this morning. He doesn't forgive McGuinness for his terrorism during the troubles but he respects his efforts for the peace process in his later years. Ending terrorism is often a messy process requiring huge compromise, thankfully McGuinness, Sinn Fein, Paisley and the Unionist community eventually recognised this. Very well written and you advance the debate with your thought-provoking points. But I'm going to counter argue by being totally blunt and ask if Adolf Hitler had attended the Yalta Conference with Roosevelt, Churchill & Stalin would he have been forgiven for his crimes against humanity? I hardly think so. And I can see no reason that the posthumus reputation of McGuinness should in any way rise above those of the most evil politicians of the 20th Century, complex characters or not.
|
|
|
Post by Lakeland Potter on Mar 22, 2017 9:17:54 GMT
A hugely complex character. Yes, he was a murdering bastard in his youth - and of course he remains responsible for those murders long after they happened. On the other hand, without him, the (relative) peace in Northern Ireland that we have now would probably not have happened and Sinn Fein would still have been pursuing their ambitions with a gun rather than with the ballot box and thousands more people would have died. I think Colin Parry (the father of Tim, killed in the Warrington bombings) has made a lot of sense in his comments this morning. He doesn't forgive McGuinness for his terrorism during the troubles but he respects his efforts for the peace process in his later years. Ending terrorism is often a messy process requiring huge compromise, thankfully McGuinness, Sinn Fein, Paisley and the Unionist community eventually recognised this. Very well written and you advance the debate with your thought-provoking points. But I'm going to counter argue by being totally blunt and ask if Adolf Hitler had attended the Yalta Conference with Roosevelt, Churchill & Stalin would he have been forgiven for his crimes against humanity? I hardly think so. And I can see no reason that the posthumus reputation of McGuinness should in any way rise above those of the most evil politicians of the 20th Century, complex characters or not. Good point - but the end game of conventional wars is usually very different to those of terrorist conflicts/civil wars. In WW2, as in most wars, one side (the Allies in this case) defeated the other militarily. Had Hitler wanted to attend Yalta it would have made no difference. Even if he had still been alive to want attend it there was nothing he could have brought to the table - he and the Nazis had already lost the war. Had he attended he would have been arrested and tried at Nuremberg along with other senior Nazis. In terrorist conflicts things are often very different.Neither side had achieved victory in the NI troubles after 35? years of trying - compared to only 6 years of WW2. Had there not been a successful peace process the conflict would probably still have been ongoing and God knows how many people would now have been dead who are still alive. The Peace process depended on compromise - not just by the leaders on each side, but by the two communities and the paramilitaries who claimed to be fighting for them. I suspect McGuinness was the only person who could have delivered the co-operation of the Sinn Fein paramilitaries - I don't think Adams could have done do. Adams might have had the support of the wider Republican community but (as he was never an active paramilitary himself) I doubt he could have persuaded the Sinn Fein fighters to lay down their weapons. Messy? Certainly! Did everyone (in either community) get the justice they deserved? No way. But did NI become relatively peaceful after almost 40 years of carnage? Yes! Would many (of either community) in NI want to return to the troubles? No - only a few break away republicans who left the IRA mostly before the peace process started. Incidentally, I'm not seeking to rehabilitate McGuinness. I see no reason for anyone to forgive or forget his activities as a paramilitary before the peace process started. But I'm bloody glad he backed the peace process - whatever his reasons were! Because he backed the process, I think NI (including relatives of mine in both communities) are living more safely now than they otherwise would have been.
|
|
|
Post by auntiegeorge on Mar 22, 2017 10:40:53 GMT
Thanks for that mate. It's not often I say this, but you've opened my mind and I'm going away to think about it.
Cheers.
*A quick edit to clarify: Hitler was still alive at the time of the Yalta conference in February 1945. The war was not over. I was trying to draw a comparison between him and McGuinness in that had he ordered Germany to surrender and agreed to meet the big 3 to work out a solution for Europe after the war, would his posthumus reputation have benefited like McGuinness's already seems to be? You know, murdering bad guy agrees to a peace deal so he wasn't really that bad after all. In fact, he is held in such esteem vigils were held for him.
|
|
|
Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 22, 2017 11:13:22 GMT
Thoughts are with Jeremy and John on losing such a good friend. Of course Martin had friends of all sorts The again he's nowhere near the worst murdering, torturing fucker that the entitled bitch in the solid gold house has broken bread with. She reserves full board and lodgings at Buck House for those sorts.
|
|
|
Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 22, 2017 11:17:45 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Lakeland Potter on Mar 22, 2017 11:25:08 GMT
Thanks for that mate. It's not often I say this, but you've opened my mind and I'm going away to think about it. Cheers. *A quick edit to clarify: Hitler was still alive at the time of the Yalta conference in February 1945. The war was not over. I was trying to draw a comparison between him and McGuinness in that had he ordered Germany to surrender and agreed to meet the big 3 to work out a solution for Europe after the war, would his posthumus reputation have benefited like McGuinness's already seems to be? You know, murdering bad guy agrees to a peace deal so he wasn't really that bad after all. In fact, he is held in such esteem vigils were held for him. Yes, I had just worked that out for myself after a bit of googling! I still think my point about the (relatively) clear cut ending to most conventional wars compared to the need for difficult compromises to end most terrorist campaigns, is valid. I also think that McGuinness was probably the only person who could have brought the Sinn Fein fighters (as opposed to the general Rebublican population where Adams probably had more influence) on board the peace process.
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Mar 22, 2017 11:25:58 GMT
Thoughts are with Jeremy and John on losing such a good friend. Of course Martin had friends of all sorts The again he's nowhere near the worst murdering, torturing fucker that the entitled bitch in the solid gold house has broken bread with. She reserves full board and lodgings at Buck House for those sorts. Jeremy and John were long term friends not just when he stopped being a terrorist, as Jeremy said he was a family man, grandkids, kids, fathers, mothers, grandfathers, grandmothers Martin killed them all.
|
|
|
Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 22, 2017 11:38:30 GMT
Of course Martin had friends of all sorts The again he's nowhere near the worst murdering, torturing fucker that the entitled bitch in the solid gold house has broken bread with. She reserves full board and lodgings at Buck House for those sorts. Jeremy and John were long term friends not just when he stopped being a terrorist, as Jeremy said he was a family man, grandkids, kids, fathers, mothers, grandfathers, grandmothers Martin killed them all. Well its not worth discussing it with you fyd if you genuinely think they encouraged terrorism and I certainly think we shouldn't go into the activities of the Tory party dangerously breaking bipartisan arrangements and holding meetings at country retreats with Unionists with long links to terrorism shall we?
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Mar 22, 2017 12:24:43 GMT
Jeremy and John were long term friends not just when he stopped being a terrorist, as Jeremy said he was a family man, grandkids, kids, fathers, mothers, grandfathers, grandmothers Martin killed them all. Well its not worth discussing it with you fyd if you genuinely think they encouraged terrorism and I certainly think we shouldn't go into the activities of the Tory party dangerously breaking bipartisan arrangements and holding meetings at country retreats with Unionists with long links to terrorism shall we? It's beyond reasonable doubt that Corbyn and MacDonnell supported the IRA, that is a real story that the provo negotiators had to ask Blair to shut up MacDonnell as he was agitating the IRA to not agree to the Good Friday Agreement. Put up any information on these unionist terror links, i'm an equal opportunities employer all Irish terrorists are cunts and anyone who supported them is too.
|
|
|
Post by rogerjonesisgod on Mar 22, 2017 15:05:59 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Staffsoatcake on Mar 22, 2017 23:31:10 GMT
Ex US President Clinton,is going to his funeral on Thursday,here in Derry.
|
|
|
Post by followyoudown on Mar 23, 2017 12:38:22 GMT
From a letters page today
Yesterday you said Martin McGuiness left a widow, he actually left hundreds of widows.
|
|