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Post by partickpotter on Nov 28, 2016 13:19:38 GMT
No doubt. American policy to all its near neighbors in the Caribbean and Latin America during the Cold War years was shocking. And Cuba, as its nearest neighbor, got the worst of it. But to lionise Castro principally on his opposition to the US paints a distorted picture of the man. I think you'll find that history says the North Americans stuck two fingers up to him first Partick. Ain't that the truth! And there was a lot more than two fingers that Castro had to concern himself from a petulant and truculent United States. My point still stands though. You cannot judge Castro purely on him standing up to the bullying United States. He also has to be judged on what he did. |
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Papst
Lads'n'Dads
Posts: 58
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Post by Papst on Nov 28, 2016 13:23:17 GMT
I've seen "Scarface"  |
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Post by stockportstokie on Nov 28, 2016 15:32:52 GMT
I think you'll find that history says the North Americans stuck two fingers up to him first Partick. Ain't that the truth! And there was a lot more than two fingers that Castro had to concern himself from a petulant and truculent United States. My point still stands though. You cannot judge Castro purely on him standing up to the bullying United States. He also has to be judged on what he did. It's is however churlish to apportion blame on Castro for what he did without taking into account the actions of the United States. Brief timeline of the events of the time In 1951, Jacobo Arbenz was democratically elected president of Guatemala. He brought about a raft of social policies which the nature of which you can guess when he said "If the independence and prosperity of our people were incompatible, which for certain they are not, I am sure that the great majority of Guatemalans would prefer to be a poor nation, but free, and not a rich colony, but enslaved." When Arbenz was elected 2% of people owned 70% of land. He drafted decree 900 (agrarian reform bill) which put land back into the ownership of 500,000, most of those people were indigenous and had been living in poverty whilst their labour enabled foreign corporations to get rich. Of course the corporations were up in arms that 'their' land was being taken out of control. The main combatant of this reform was the United Fruit Company, it was their lobbying that eventually paved the way for 'coup d'état' in 1954 which ultimately led to Arbenz being overthrown. What replaced him was US backed military dictatorship. The aftermath of which resulted in a 36 year civil war leaving over 200,000 people dead. In 1961, concerned about DR Congo's first democratic prime minister, Patrice Lumumba, the CIA reported "EMBASSY AND STATION BELIEVE CONGO EXPERIENCING CLASSIC COMMUNIST EFFORT TAKEOVER GOVERNMENT. MANY FORCES AT WORK HERE: SOVIETS COMMUNIST PARTY, ETC. ALTHOUGH DIFFICULT DETERMINE MAJOR INFLUENCING FACTORS TO PREDICT OUTCOME STRUGGLE FOR POWER, DECISIVE PERIOD NOT FAR OFF. WHETHER OR NOT LUMUMBA ACTUALLY COMMIE OR JUST PLAYING COMMIE GAME TO ASSIST HIS SOLIDIFYING POWER, ANTI-WEST FORCES RAPIDLY INCREASING POWER CONGO AND THERE MANY BE LITTLE TIME LEFT IN WHICH TO TAKE ACTION TO AVOID ANOTHER CUBA." This of course resulted in Patrice Lumumba being brutally executed. The US then backed murderous military dictator Joseph Mobutu for over three decades. His crimes make the accusations labelled at Castro look like childs play. In 1964, Joao Goulart, then president of Brazil was overthrown in a military coup backed by the US. Goulart had some unacceptable policies like transferring ownership of land from foreign multicorps back into the hands of Brazil & redistributed back to the people & allowing illiterate people the right to vote. Of course what followed was decades of military junta. In 1965, the US so perturbed at Juan Bosch returning with the support of the people having already be overthrown by military junta, dispatched 42,000 troops to ensure he was unable to assume back power. In 1970, Salvador Allande was democratically elected president of Chile. Allande was a socialist and embarked on "the Chilean path to socialism". The US had him overthrown and executed. They replaced him with Augusto Pinochet. There are plenty more historical events that run the same course. Castro was brutal because he had to be brutal to survive. He had over 600 attempts on his life. There is no basis on which Castro can be accused if you actually take the time to research history and analyse the differing forces at play.  |
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 28, 2016 18:53:11 GMT
Ain't that the truth! And there was a lot more than two fingers that Castro had to concern himself from a petulant and truculent United States. My point still stands though. You cannot judge Castro purely on him standing up to the bullying United States. He also has to be judged on what he did. It's is however churlish to apportion blame on Castro for what he did without taking into account the actions of the United States. I don't get the churlish point. Are you saying that Castro is beyond criticism because he was subjected to unjustifiable, disgraceful and illegal attacks from the US? |
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Post by themistocles on Nov 28, 2016 20:01:11 GMT
So currently liberals are trying to;
Overthrow a democratic vote on Brexit
Overthrow a democratic vote In the US presidency
Praising and making a saint out of a person who murdered anyone with a different political opinion to his...
Anti-democratic morons..
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Post by stockportstokie on Nov 28, 2016 20:07:45 GMT
So currently liberals are trying to; Overthrow a democratic vote on Brexit Overthrow a democratic vote In the US presidency Praising and making a saint out of a person who murdered anyone with a different political opinion to his... Anti-democratic morons.. Who are these liberals you refer to? |
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Post by themistocles on Nov 28, 2016 20:20:34 GMT
So currently liberals are trying to; Overthrow a democratic vote on Brexit Overthrow a democratic vote In the US presidency Praising and making a saint out of a person who murdered anyone with a different political opinion to his... Anti-democratic morons.. Who are these liberals you refer to? Many on here and many ignorant millenials. I'm sure you've winged and protested about the above. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 28, 2016 20:25:18 GMT
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Post by stockportstokie on Nov 28, 2016 20:28:20 GMT
Who are these liberals you refer to? Many on here and many ignorant millenials. I'm sure you've winged and protested about the above. You have such a shit understanding of the world. For the record I was for brexit and anti Clinton. |
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Post by themistocles on Nov 28, 2016 20:35:37 GMT
Many on here and many ignorant millenials. I'm sure you've winged and protested about the above. You have such a shit understanding of the world. For the record I was for brexit and anti Clinton. "You have a shit understanding of the world" that's your opinion. I have the same opinion of yourself. |
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 28, 2016 20:58:12 GMT
It's is however churlish to apportion blame on Castro for what he did without taking into account the actions of the United States. I don't get the churlish point. Are you saying that Castro is beyond criticism because he was subjected to unjustifiable, disgraceful and illegal attacks from the US? He left his people in obscene poverty whilst he lived the high life, his regime's main purpose was to keep its self in power. Much in common with Jezza's leadership there. |
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 28, 2016 21:03:54 GMT
Still no sign of you putting into context why you'd like a post that wished for secret police to round up gays in the UK. |
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Post by manmarking on Nov 28, 2016 21:38:58 GMT
Many on here and many ignorant millenials. I'm sure you've winged and protested about the above. You have such a shit understanding of the world. For the record I was for brexit and anti Clinton. Harry is all about the black and white mate. He doesn't get anything in between |
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Post by themistocles on Nov 28, 2016 21:42:01 GMT
You have such a shit understanding of the world. For the record I was for brexit and anti Clinton. Harry is all about the black and white mate. He doesn't get anything in between Who's Harry, cliff ? |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 28, 2016 21:45:47 GMT
Still no sign of you putting into context why you'd like a post that wished for secret police to round up gays in the UK. I was under the impression the post you're wetting yourself over was meant to be ironic. Feel free to correct me if I was wrong. You know a bit like when you referred to "pasty faced" Israelis...was it? |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 28, 2016 21:46:36 GMT
Harry is all about the black and white mate. He doesn't get anything in between Who's Harry, cliff ? You, obviously. |
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Post by manmarking on Nov 28, 2016 21:49:10 GMT
Harry is all about the black and white mate. He doesn't get anything in between Who's Harry, cliff ? If you're not Harry then you do a very good impression of him  All seething hatred and anger and strawman arguments. If you're a wind-up then compliments, you're a good un |
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Post by manmarking on Nov 28, 2016 21:49:58 GMT
I don't get the churlish point. Are you saying that Castro is beyond criticism because he was subjected to unjustifiable, disgraceful and illegal attacks from the US? He left his people in obscene poverty whilst he lived the high life, his regime's main purpose was to keep its self in power. Much in common with Jezza's leadership there. Who are we on about now mate? Reagan? Pinochet? Blair? Botha? Obama? Thatcher? Oh, sorry, not Thatcher, you said "he"... |
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 28, 2016 21:59:29 GMT
Still no sign of you putting into context why you'd like a post that wished for secret police to round up gays in the UK. I was under the impression the post you're wetting yourself over was meant to be ironic. Feel free to correct me if I was wrong. You know a bit like when you referred to "pasty faced" Israelis...was it? Really you think that post was ironic and what would make you believe that was a joke. And no that wasn't irony either it was to draw attention to how killings by certain groups of people went without comments whilst others draw pages of comments. |
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Post by themistocles on Nov 28, 2016 22:00:55 GMT
If you're not Harry then you do a very good impression of him All seething hatred and anger and strawman arguments. If you're a wind-up then compliments, you're a good un Strawman arguments.. Bit hypocritical that mate. "Seething hatred and anger " again hypocritical for someone who labels everyone who disagrees with him a racist. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 28, 2016 22:01:50 GMT
I was under the impression the post you're wetting yourself over was meant to be ironic. Feel free to correct me if I was wrong. You know a bit like when you referred to "pasty faced" Israelis...was it? Really you think that post was ironic and what would make you believe that was a joke. And no that wasn't irony either it was to draw attention to how killings by certain groups of people went without comments whilst others draw pages of comments. If it wasn't ironic then I was wrong. Would you like an apology? |
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Post by manmarking on Nov 28, 2016 22:06:34 GMT
If you're not Harry then you do a very good impression of him All seething hatred and anger and strawman arguments. If you're a wind-up then compliments, you're a good un Strawman arguments.. Bit hypocritical that mate. "Seething hatred and anger " again hypocritical for someone who labels everyone who disagrees with him a racist. I don't do strawmen, Harry. I choose a point and stick to it. "Labels everyone who disagrees with him a racist" - total bollocks but a great example of a strawman, thanks |
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 28, 2016 22:07:51 GMT
Really you think that post was ironic and what would make you believe that was a joke. And no that wasn't irony either it was to draw attention to how killings by certain groups of people went without comments whilst others draw pages of comments. If it wasn't ironic then I was wrong. Would you like an apology? No just thought it was a strange thing to like and I couldn't see any context for it. |
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 28, 2016 22:10:02 GMT
He left his people in obscene poverty whilst he lived the high life, his regime's main purpose was to keep its self in power. Much in common with Jezza's leadership there. Who are we on about now mate? Reagan? Pinochet? Blair? Botha? Obama? Thatcher? Oh, sorry, not Thatcher, you said "he"... A thread about Castro should be enough of a clue you'd hope but next time i'll narrow it down for you by mentioning executing opponents, putting guys and black people into concentration camps. |
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Post by manmarking on Nov 28, 2016 22:13:13 GMT
Who are we on about now mate? Reagan? Pinochet? Blair? Botha? Obama? Thatcher? Oh, sorry, not Thatcher, you said "he"... A thread about Castro should be enough of a clue you'd hope but next time i'll narrow it down for you by mentioning executing opponents, putting guys and black people into concentration camps. Could be any number of Thatcher's mates to be fair  |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 28, 2016 22:21:24 GMT
A thread about Castro should be enough of a clue you'd hope but next time i'll narrow it down for you by mentioning executing opponents, putting guys and black people into concentration camps. Could be any number of Thatcher's mates to be fair Where's Guantanamo again? |
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Nov 28, 2016 22:28:44 GMT
Folk are fickle.
Bookings have gone through the roof at his restaurant in Chedd.
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Post by manmarking on Nov 29, 2016 7:56:28 GMT
Could be any number of Thatcher's mates to be fair Where's Guantanamo again? This is the problem I outlined to sloppy. Castro is really no worse than countless nasty corrupt scumbags the West supports - and as you say that includes George W Bush himself |
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Post by followyoudown on Nov 29, 2016 8:21:11 GMT
Where's Guantanamo again? This is the problem I outlined to sloppy. Castro is really no worse than countless nasty corrupt scumbags the West supports - and as you say that includes George W Bush himself Garbage, Guantanamo Bay is wrong and the people there should be charged in court or set free but how do you get an equivalence between there and jailing people for being gay or black or dissenting against the Castro regime is beyond belief. |
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Post by ColonelMustard on Nov 29, 2016 8:30:31 GMT
Where's Guantanamo again? ;) This is the problem I outlined to sloppy. Castro is really no worse than countless nasty corrupt scumbags the West supports - and as you say that includes George W Bush himself :D A brutal embargo on Castro's Cuban project while tax havens and oil producing dictators build sky scrapers with our money is not exactly how Id order it either. |
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