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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 25, 2016 20:29:36 GMT
He's at least 50 times the player. He'd walk into our side. So would Geoff Cameron, oh hang on a minute he already does and does a dam good job already!
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Post by alster on Oct 25, 2016 20:34:56 GMT
Bizarrely this argument has almost gone full circle now.
When Allen signed, I argued against a pretty loud call from a lot of people on this board that Allen was being brought here to replace Whelan.
Joe Allen is a box to box midfielder, always has been, always will be.
N-O-T A C-H-A-N-C-E that he'll ever have the discipline to learn to sit in front of the centre backs, shielding them.
But equally, he's not a traditional number 10 either. Sure he can make a better fist of that role than he would attempting to replace Glenn but it's still not his ideal position.
If we currently had Claude Makelele (in his prime) available to us right now, then I don't think anybody on here would argue that Makelele (as the sitting defensive mid), Allen (as the box to box midfielder) and a quality number 10 wouldn't be absolutely mustard for us, with our (inverted) wingers and Bony.
We've almost certainly have got a quality number 10 (either Bojan or Shaqiri) on our books, Allen (is of course) already here but the missing piece of that jigsaw is the quality defensive mid.
Obviously.
Its certainly wouldn't be a natural position for JA I'm still almost certain he could do it better than Whelan is. He's definitely not what I want there he doesn't fit the physical profile of what I want to see there but I do think Whelan is seriously bad. I've never felt he offered enough but now he doesn't seem to have the energy or mobility to even offer what he did beforehand. I don't see JA's long term future as the most advanced midfielder as its steadied the ship we'll have to go with it for now but if results prove disappointing in the near future I'd expect Whelan to be shifted out of the side even though we have no natural replacement.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Oct 25, 2016 20:42:46 GMT
On Hughes, Danny Murphy called it correctly on TS after the Palace debacle when recounting what happened at Fulham. Hughes regrouped got them to tighten up, play more of a percentage game, reduce the risks etc. It's good to see. I don't think the start to the season has been disasterous, Hughes reckoned we were a win behind what was expected, maybe Everton, WBA? I don't think the fact that he hadn't expected all wins is defeatist, I reckon he sets us up to win every game. Started the season taking risks with Imbula and Bojan in midfield. We got blown away chasing games {and the Palace terror}. He's tightened it up, arrested the slide, no doubt with a few points behind us he'll have another look at re-introducing them.
Relief to see that there's been some free kick practice. Ryan's movement in the wall has enabled Shaq's free kicks too. We're getting better at corners, both ends and seem to have cut out that knack of conceding from our attacking corners. Full backs more disciplined, a solid platform for the forwards to perform off. Like Ryan said in the Sentinel. If we add an average return from set pieces this season to what we've achieved in the last three years, we'll be pushing for Europe.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 20:44:25 GMT
On Hughes, Danny Murphy called on TS after the Palace debacle when recounting what happened at Fulham. Hughes regrouped got them to tighten up, play more of a percentage game, reduce the risks etc. It's good to see. I don't think the start to the season has been disasterous, Hughes reckoned we were a win behind what was expected, maybe Everton, WBA? I don't think the fact that he hadn't expected all wins is defeatist, I reckon he sets us up to win every game. Started the season taking risks with Imbula and Bojan in midfield. We got blown away chasing games {and the Palace terror}. He's tightened it up, arrested the slide, no doubt with a few points behind us he'll have another look at re-introducing them. Relief to see that there's been some free kick practice. Ryan's movement in the wall has enabled Shaq's free kicks too. We're getting better at corners, both ends and seem to have cut out that knack of conceding from our attacking corners. Full backs more disciplined, a solid platform for the forwards to perform off. Like Ryan said in the Sentinel. If we add an average return from set pieces this season to what we've achieved in the last three years, we'll be pushing for Europe. I think it was disastrous, but he's taken steps, be they short term or otherwise, to stop the rot, so kudos to him for that.
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Post by Squeekster on Oct 25, 2016 20:46:15 GMT
I'm saying he's what we have at the moment and in my opinion is doing a fine job, of course there are players out there that can improve us but at the minute we have what we have! I don't think anyone would argue he isn't playing well at the moment. In my opinion he'd been great for most of his time here regardless of what bayern says!
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Post by alster on Oct 25, 2016 20:56:17 GMT
I don't think anyone would argue he isn't playing well at the moment. In my opinion he'd been great for most of his time here regardless of what bayern says! Are you his Mum? He has some great attributes, propelling a football in a predictable direction isn't one of them.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Oct 25, 2016 21:10:58 GMT
On Hughes, Danny Murphy called on TS after the Palace debacle when recounting what happened at Fulham. Hughes regrouped got them to tighten up, play more of a percentage game, reduce the risks etc. It's good to see. I don't think the start to the season has been disasterous, Hughes reckoned we were a win behind what was expected, maybe Everton, WBA? I don't think the fact that he hadn't expected all wins is defeatist, I reckon he sets us up to win every game. Started the season taking risks with Imbula and Bojan in midfield. We got blown away chasing games {and the Palace terror}. He's tightened it up, arrested the slide, no doubt with a few points behind us he'll have another look at re-introducing them. Relief to see that there's been some free kick practice. Ryan's movement in the wall has enabled Shaq's free kicks too. We're getting better at corners, both ends and seem to have cut out that knack of conceding from our attacking corners. Full backs more disciplined, a solid platform for the forwards to perform off. Like Ryan said in the Sentinel. If we add an average return from set pieces this season to what we've achieved in the last three years, we'll be pushing for Europe. I think it was disastrous, but he's taken steps, be they short term or otherwise, to stop the rot, so kudos to him for that. Shit goal difference, but for me the performances have had a different feel to the usual frustrating sluggish starts of previous seasons. We've competed, chased games, yes been beaten, but not because we've lacked condition. Missed Shaq, Jack and Glen etc. I dunner think it's been that bad: gritty vs Boro, competed with Man City, looked mint first half Spurs, unlucky vs Everton, shit against Palace... etc. I saw flashes of really good stuff and cause for optimism in 'em. Danny Murphy reassured me after Palace. I've been very questioning of Hughes' and 'the nuts and bolts' and shape etc. He's totally convinced me they're on it. Maybe it took Marc Wilson gate?
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 21:16:47 GMT
I think it was disastrous, but he's taken steps, be they short term or otherwise, to stop the rot, so kudos to him for that. Shit goal difference, but for me the performances have had a different feel to the usual frustrating sluggish starts of previous seasons. We've competed, chased games, yes been beaten, but not because we've lacked condition. Missed Shaq, Jack and Glen etc. I dunner think it's been that bad: gritty vs Boro, competed with Man City, looked mint first half Spurs, unlucky vs Everton, shit against Palace... etc. I saw flashes of really good stuff and cause for optimism in 'em. Danny Murphy reassured me after Palace. I've been very questioning of Hughes' and 'the nuts and bolts' and shape etc. He's totally convinced me they're on it. Maybe it took Marc Wilson gate? I think the concerning thing with the early performances was that they reflected a continuation of the problems we had in the latter half of last season. Toothless, insipid going forward, a shambles at the back. Thought we were awful first half at Boro, much better second. Citeh we veered between decent and dreadful. Pretty poor at Everton though on another day might have nicked a scarcely deserved draw. Ok for 20 mins against Spurs then awful. Nightmarish against Palace. The changes we've been forced to make to stop the rot reflect the titting about we did in the summer and god knows what we'd have been thinking of we'd spunked £25m on an overweight Berahino. We're hopefully on the comeback trail and getting better by the week though. I don't see us going down.
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Post by alster on Oct 25, 2016 21:22:48 GMT
Shit goal difference, but for me the performances have had a different feel to the usual frustrating sluggish starts of previous seasons. We've competed, chased games, yes been beaten, but not because we've lacked condition. Missed Shaq, Jack and Glen etc. I dunner think it's been that bad: gritty vs Boro, competed with Man City, looked mint first half Spurs, unlucky vs Everton, shit against Palace... etc. I saw flashes of really good stuff and cause for optimism in 'em. Danny Murphy reassured me after Palace. I've been very questioning of Hughes' and 'the nuts and bolts' and shape etc. He's totally convinced me they're on it. Maybe it took Marc Wilson gate? I think the concerning thing with the early performances was that they reflected a continuation of the problems we had in the latter half of last season. Toothless, insipid going forward, a shambles at the back. Thought we were awful first half at Boro, much better second. Citeh we veered between decent and dreadful. Pretty poor at Everton though on another day might have nicked a scarcely deserved draw. Ok for 20 mins against Spurs then awful. Nightmarish against Palace. The changes we've been forced to make to stop the rot reflect the titting about we did in the summer and god knows what we'd have been thinking of we'd spunked £25m on an overweight Berahino. We're hopefully on the comeback trail and getting better by the week though. I don't see us going down. Theres been quite a lot of titting about with selection and in the transfer market for getting on for a year. Hopefully our miserable start has given all parties concerned a wake up call.
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Post by Squeekster on Oct 25, 2016 21:26:45 GMT
In my opinion he'd been great for most of his time here regardless of what bayern says! Are you his Mum? He has some great attributes, propelling a football in a predictable direction isn't one of them. Why should i be his mum?
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Post by alster on Oct 25, 2016 21:30:46 GMT
Are you his Mum? He has some great attributes, propelling a football in a predictable direction isn't one of them. Why should i be his mum? Ok then his Sister, Girlfriend, Aunty
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Oct 25, 2016 21:36:42 GMT
Shit goal difference, but for me the performances have had a different feel to the usual frustrating sluggish starts of previous seasons. We've competed, chased games, yes been beaten, but not because we've lacked condition. Missed Shaq, Jack and Glen etc. I dunner think it's been that bad: gritty vs Boro, competed with Man City, looked mint first half Spurs, unlucky vs Everton, shit against Palace... etc. I saw flashes of really good stuff and cause for optimism in 'em. Danny Murphy reassured me after Palace. I've been very questioning of Hughes' and 'the nuts and bolts' and shape etc. He's totally convinced me they're on it. Maybe it took Marc Wilson gate? I think the concerning thing with the early performances was that they reflected a continuation of the problems we had in the latter half of last season. Toothless, insipid going forward, a shambles at the back. Thought we were awful first half at Boro, much better second. Citeh we veered between decent and dreadful. Pretty poor at Everton though on another day might have nicked a scarcely deserved draw. Ok for 20 mins against Spurs then awful. Nightmarish against Palace. The changes we've been forced to make to stop the rot reflect the titting about we did in the summer and god knows what we'd have been thinking of we'd spunked £25m on an overweight Berahino. We're hopefully on the comeback trail and getting better by the week though. I don't see us going down. Not wanting to hex it or owt, still taking it one game at a time {as ever}. No thoughts of the drop at all. I think the addition of Bruno, Allen and Bony were perfect fits, ideal to address last seasons problems. Just hope they're clicking and we're over it. At least after a period of integration Berhino wouldn't be off to the Acon. Who knows how it might have panned out.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2016 21:39:38 GMT
Shit goal difference, but for me the performances have had a different feel to the usual frustrating sluggish starts of previous seasons. We've competed, chased games, yes been beaten, but not because we've lacked condition. Missed Shaq, Jack and Glen etc. I dunner think it's been that bad: gritty vs Boro, competed with Man City, looked mint first half Spurs, unlucky vs Everton, shit against Palace... etc. I saw flashes of really good stuff and cause for optimism in 'em. Danny Murphy reassured me after Palace. I've been very questioning of Hughes' and 'the nuts and bolts' and shape etc. He's totally convinced me they're on it. Maybe it took Marc Wilson gate? I think the concerning thing with the early performances was that they reflected a continuation of the problems we had in the latter half of last season. Toothless, insipid going forward, a shambles at the back. Thought we were awful first half at Boro, much better second. Citeh we veered between decent and dreadful. Pretty poor at Everton though on another day might have nicked a scarcely deserved draw. Ok for 20 mins against Spurs then awful. Nightmarish against Palace. The changes we've been forced to make to stop the rot reflect the titting about we did in the summer and god knows what we'd have been thinking of we'd spunked £25m on an overweight Berahino. We're hopefully on the comeback trail and getting better by the week though. I don't see us going down. I wasn't too concerned about us going down, but I was concerned about Hughes losing his job, because I like what he's done and the players he's signed, the like of which I'd almost given up seeing in a Stoke shirt. I've always backed the Hughes 'slow start to the season' as a means to an end. But the start this seaon was really concerning. We looked wide open, amateurish even in defence, and utterly toothless in attack, which in truth, we've looked since Odemwingie's injury. But a combination of a new keeper in form, a more settled defence, Shakiri hitting form, and an unchanged team (a format that Hughes has been reluctant to make use of) incorporating a more defensive set-up, has seen us steady the ship. I fully expect to see us use a more adventurous set-up including the return of the wandering star, Imbula, once we're out of intensive care. In the meantime, a run of winnable matches at just the right time should set us up for a run up the table. We're looking OK, and it's a bloody relief.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 21:46:28 GMT
I think the concerning thing with the early performances was that they reflected a continuation of the problems we had in the latter half of last season. Toothless, insipid going forward, a shambles at the back. Thought we were awful first half at Boro, much better second. Citeh we veered between decent and dreadful. Pretty poor at Everton though on another day might have nicked a scarcely deserved draw. Ok for 20 mins against Spurs then awful. Nightmarish against Palace. The changes we've been forced to make to stop the rot reflect the titting about we did in the summer and god knows what we'd have been thinking of we'd spunked £25m on an overweight Berahino. We're hopefully on the comeback trail and getting better by the week though. I don't see us going down. Not wanting to hex it or owt, still taking it one game at a time {as ever}. No thoughts of the drop at all. I think the addition of Bruno, Allen and Bony were perfect fits, ideal to address last seasons problems. Just hope they're clicking and we're over it. At least after a period of integration Berhino wouldn't be off to the Acon. Who knows how it might have panned out. I don't think Allen was a perfect fit. He's been great but his signing looks a very peculiar one. Was it an insurance one in case Imbula didn't work out? Or did we intend to play Imbula as the more advanced midfielder? It hasn't addressed last season's problem in that we haven't got an upgrade on Glenn and we're relying on two 30-something sticking plasters. The winger situation looks a balls-up as well. Bony on paper was a no-brainer. In practice it hasn't got there yet. He's slowly getting better but we need him to start scoring soon. Bruno has been terrific.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 25, 2016 22:06:45 GMT
Not wanting to hex it or owt, still taking it one game at a time {as ever}. No thoughts of the drop at all. I think the addition of Bruno, Allen and Bony were perfect fits, ideal to address last seasons problems. Just hope they're clicking and we're over it. At least after a period of integration Berhino wouldn't be off to the Acon. Who knows how it might have panned out. I don't think Allen was a perfect fit. He's been great but his signing looks a very peculiar one. Was it an insurance one in case Imbula didn't work out? Or did we intend to play Imbula as the more advanced midfielder? It hasn't addressed last season's problem in that we haven't got an upgrade on Glenn and we're relying on two 30-something sticking plasters. The winger situation looks a balls-up as well. Bony on paper was a no-brainer. In practice it hasn't got there yet. He's slowly getting better but we need him to start scoring soon. Bruno has been terrific. I don't understand that comment. Hughes obviously rated the guy very highly and when he became available grabbed him without hesitation. IMO he instinctively knew he would bolster Stoke's soft and indolent midfield and inject some positive attitude into our play. Having brought in the likes of Arni, Bojan, Afellay, Shaqiri, and free transfers like Bardsley and Johnson, Joe Allen could be the best bargain of the lot. I think Hughes sees players he instinctively likes and if they become available he tries to get them. I expect Berahino is another player he craves for. How they then fit into the team I suggest is a secondary consideration to him and sometimes it doesn't work out as it appears with Imbula and Joselu so far, but we shouldn't give up on them. I'm hoping their periods out of the first team will give them the wake up call so they step up to a new level when/if they get another chance.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 22:14:15 GMT
I don't think Allen was a perfect fit. He's been great but his signing looks a very peculiar one. Was it an insurance one in case Imbula didn't work out? Or did we intend to play Imbula as the more advanced midfielder? It hasn't addressed last season's problem in that we haven't got an upgrade on Glenn and we're relying on two 30-something sticking plasters. The winger situation looks a balls-up as well. Bony on paper was a no-brainer. In practice it hasn't got there yet. He's slowly getting better but we need him to start scoring soon. Bruno has been terrific. I don't understand that comment. Hughes obviously rated the guy very highly and when he became available grabbed him without hesitation. IMO he instinctively knew he would bolster Stoke's soft and indolent midfield and inject some positive attitude into our play. Having brought in the likes of Arni, Bojan, Afellay, Shaqiri, and free transfers like Bardsley and Johnson, Joe Allen could be the best bargain of the lot. I think Hughes sees players he instinctively likes and if they become available he tries to get them. I expect Berahino is another player he craves for. How they then fit into the team I suggest is a secondary consideration to him and sometimes it doesn't work out as it appears with Imbula and Joselu so far, but we shouldn't give up on them. I'm hoping their periods out of the first team will give them the wake up call so they step up to a new level when/if they get another chance. I'm not complaining about the signing. As I've said (numerous times) Allen has been great. But by the same token, I don't think you should just go round collecting players you like like Pokemon. We had glaring weaknesses in the squad that went ignored while we appeared to have signed the second most expensive player in the club's history to replace the first. Surely that wasn't the plan, nor was it the the plan to have Whelan and Cameron as our midfield axis? It's working, which is great, but it's hard to work out what our strategy was in the summer.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Oct 25, 2016 22:29:10 GMT
Not wanting to hex it or owt, still taking it one game at a time {as ever}. No thoughts of the drop at all. I think the addition of Bruno, Allen and Bony were perfect fits, ideal to address last seasons problems. Just hope they're clicking and we're over it. At least after a period of integration Berhino wouldn't be off to the Acon. Who knows how it might have panned out. I don't think Allen was a perfect fit. He's been great but his signing looks a very peculiar one. Was it an insurance one in case Imbula didn't work out? Or did we intend to play Imbula as the more advanced midfielder? It hasn't addressed last season's problem in that we haven't got an upgrade on Glenn and we're relying on two 30-something sticking plasters. The winger situation looks a balls-up as well. Bony on paper was a no-brainer. In practice it hasn't got there yet. He's slowly getting better but we need him to start scoring soon. Bruno has been terrific. Nowt peculiar about Hughes' liking the look of a bearded Welsh gegenpressing 352 merchant. Still think the blueprint is Allen, Imbula {right left balance} with Bojan ahead. The current default has allowed Imbula to be a longer term project, but in the meantime I don't think Whelan, Allen and Bojan through the middle would work together. Would you do a Cattermole Whelan swap at xmas? Wished we'd done the Redmond Walters swap. I try not to stress too much about the minutaie if summat turns out good {Joe Allen} At the back of my mind I think the contract situation of several players etc there may be a bigger plan to reconfigure the squad in 17. In the meantime wring the last out of 'em.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 25, 2016 22:35:17 GMT
I don't understand that comment. Hughes obviously rated the guy very highly and when he became available grabbed him without hesitation. IMO he instinctively knew he would bolster Stoke's soft and indolent midfield and inject some positive attitude into our play. Having brought in the likes of Arni, Bojan, Afellay, Shaqiri, and free transfers like Bardsley and Johnson, Joe Allen could be the best bargain of the lot. I think Hughes sees players he instinctively likes and if they become available he tries to get them. I expect Berahino is another player he craves for. How they then fit into the team I suggest is a secondary consideration to him and sometimes it doesn't work out as it appears with Imbula and Joselu so far, but we shouldn't give up on them. I'm hoping their periods out of the first team will give them the wake up call so they step up to a new level when/if they get another chance. I'm not complaining about the signing. As I've said (numerous times) Allen has been great. But by the same token, I don't think you should just go round collecting players you like like Pokemon. We had glaring weaknesses in the squad that went ignored while we appeared to have signed the second most expensive player in the club's history to replace the first. Surely that wasn't the plan, nor was it the the plan to have Whelan and Cameron as our midfield axis? It's working, which is great, but it's hard to work out what our strategy was in the summer. I wasn't saying you were complaining about the Allen signing, just challenging your comment that it was a peculiar one. I do think Hughes appears to sign any player he fancies if he can get him and has drifted into a situation of having a surfeit of "#10s" and still be short of talent in other positions such as Whelan's. This is more driven by circumstances in terms of who is available/affordable rather than any plan. I don't have any issue with buying another very good player for any position if one becomes available. As to the summer transfer window strategy, I'm sure the club had one, but with all the changes in managers and potential ownership changes at other clubs I think the club just found it nigh impossible to get any decent business done until the final knockings. Deals were also baulked by the inflated prices being asked and probably outrageous wage demands, which possibly worked in our favour in the case of Arnautovic.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Oct 25, 2016 22:40:28 GMT
I don't understand that comment. Hughes obviously rated the guy very highly and when he became available grabbed him without hesitation. IMO he instinctively knew he would bolster Stoke's soft and indolent midfield and inject some positive attitude into our play. Having brought in the likes of Arni, Bojan, Afellay, Shaqiri, and free transfers like Bardsley and Johnson, Joe Allen could be the best bargain of the lot. I think Hughes sees players he instinctively likes and if they become available he tries to get them. I expect Berahino is another player he craves for. How they then fit into the team I suggest is a secondary consideration to him and sometimes it doesn't work out as it appears with Imbula and Joselu so far, but we shouldn't give up on them. I'm hoping their periods out of the first team will give them the wake up call so they step up to a new level when/if they get another chance. I'm not complaining about the signing. As I've said (numerous times) Allen has been great. But by the same token, I don't think you should just go round collecting players you like like Pokemon. We had glaring weaknesses in the squad that went ignored while we appeared to have signed the second most expensive player in the club's history to replace the first. Surely that wasn't the plan, nor was it the the plan to have Whelan and Cameron as our midfield axis? It's working, which is great, but it's hard to work out what our strategy was in the summer. Don't get it mate. At our worst we looked shaky in defence {Bruno} poor transition from midfield to attack {Allen}, fullbacks ineffective and left us exposed going forward, {That's been addressed by more discipline, a kick up the arse/rest for Ekker, Johnson back in and also now the tweaks in midfield}. The ball wouldn't stick up top so the inverted wingers didn't join the party enough {Bony}. We were shite at set pieces and corners. {Obviously there's been work there.} Oh yes and injuries {fingers crossed.} Winger {Sobhi}. Always could be better {see how he finishes it off in the xmas window} but far from directionless, to my thinking pretty bob on on addressing 'deficiencies'.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 22:42:22 GMT
I don't think Allen was a perfect fit. He's been great but his signing looks a very peculiar one. Was it an insurance one in case Imbula didn't work out? Or did we intend to play Imbula as the more advanced midfielder? It hasn't addressed last season's problem in that we haven't got an upgrade on Glenn and we're relying on two 30-something sticking plasters. The winger situation looks a balls-up as well. Bony on paper was a no-brainer. In practice it hasn't got there yet. He's slowly getting better but we need him to start scoring soon. Bruno has been terrific. Nowt peculiar about Hughes' liking the look of a bearded Welsh gegenpressing 352 merchant. Still think the blueprint is Allen, Imbula {right left balance} with Bojan ahead. The current default has allowed Imbula to be a longer term project, but in the meantime I don't think Whelan, Allen and Bojan through the middle would work together. Would you do a Cattermole Whelan swap at xmas? Wished we'd done the Redmond Walters swap. I try not to stress too much about the minutaie if summat turns out good {Joe Allen} At the back of my mind I think the contract situation of several players etc there may be a bigger plan to reconfigure the squad in 17. In the meantime wring the last out of 'em. The minutiae is the future of our £18m record signing and Bojan though, so they're not really minutiae at all. I'd take Cattermole but not in a swap because that would still just leave us with one honest to god holding mid. Don't think the Redmond/Walters swap was ever a thing, but then I don't think you do either
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 22:46:53 GMT
I'm not complaining about the signing. As I've said (numerous times) Allen has been great. But by the same token, I don't think you should just go round collecting players you like like Pokemon. We had glaring weaknesses in the squad that went ignored while we appeared to have signed the second most expensive player in the club's history to replace the first. Surely that wasn't the plan, nor was it the the plan to have Whelan and Cameron as our midfield axis? It's working, which is great, but it's hard to work out what our strategy was in the summer. Don't get it mate. At our worst we looked shaky in defence {Bruno} poor transition from midfield to attack {Allen}, fullbacks ineffective and left us exposed going forward, {That's been addressed by more discipline, a kick up the arse/rest for Ekker, Johnson back in and also now the tweaks in midfield}. The ball wouldn't stick up top so the inverted wingers didn't join the party enough {Bony}. We were shite at set pieces and corners. {Obviously there's been work there.} Oh yes and injuries {fingers crossed.} Winger {Sobhi}. Always could be better {see how he finishes it off in the xmas window} but far from directionless, to my thinking pretty bob on on addressing 'deficiencies'. The transition issue seems to suggest we're blithely writing off Imbula. What about the holding midfielder issue? Sobhi hasn't solved the winger issue because he can't get on the bench. We needed, in addition to him, a proper, ready to go wing option to compete straight away with Arnie and Shaq. We've addressed some of the problems with sticking plasters. That's great but don't tell me that was the plan all along. We've stumbled on one - it's good, because a lot of managers don't even manage that much, and we've taken the steps we needed to take, but it's been messy and might yet be messy. There are plenty of loose ends.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 25, 2016 22:49:04 GMT
I don't think Allen was a perfect fit. He's been great but his signing looks a very peculiar one. Was it an insurance one in case Imbula didn't work out? Or did we intend to play Imbula as the more advanced midfielder? It hasn't addressed last season's problem in that we haven't got an upgrade on Glenn and we're relying on two 30-something sticking plasters. The winger situation looks a balls-up as well. Bony on paper was a no-brainer. In practice it hasn't got there yet. He's slowly getting better but we need him to start scoring soon. Bruno has been terrific. I don't understand that comment. Hughes obviously rated the guy very highly and when he became available grabbed him without hesitation. IMO he instinctively knew he would bolster Stoke's soft and indolent midfield and inject some positive attitude into our play. Having brought in the likes of Arni, Bojan, Afellay, Shaqiri, and free transfers like Bardsley and Johnson, Joe Allen could be the best bargain of the lot. I think Hughes sees players he instinctively likes and if they become available he tries to get them. I expect Berahino is another player he craves for. How they then fit into the team I suggest is a secondary consideration to him and sometimes it doesn't work out as it appears with Imbula and Joselu so far, but we shouldn't give up on them. I'm hoping their periods out of the first team will give them the wake up call so they step up to a new level when/if they get another chance.
Yep it's certainly looking that way.
Of course we're not Chelsea and if that policy is sustainable for a club of our size, remains to be seen.
I'm not sure that Hughes himself would describe his transfer policy like this though.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 25, 2016 22:52:06 GMT
Don't get it mate. At our worst we looked shaky in defence {Bruno} poor transition from midfield to attack {Allen}, fullbacks ineffective and left us exposed going forward, {That's been addressed by more discipline, a kick up the arse/rest for Ekker, Johnson back in and also now the tweaks in midfield}. The ball wouldn't stick up top so the inverted wingers didn't join the party enough {Bony}. We were shite at set pieces and corners. {Obviously there's been work there.} Oh yes and injuries {fingers crossed.} Winger {Sobhi}. Always could be better {see how he finishes it off in the xmas window} but far from directionless, to my thinking pretty bob on on addressing 'deficiencies'. The transition issue seems to suggest we're blithely writing off Imbula. What about the holding midfielder issue? Sobhi hasn't solved the winger issue because he can't get on the bench. We needed, in addition to him, a proper, ready to go wing option to compete straight away with Arnie and Shaq. We've addressed some of the problems with sticking plasters. That's great but don't tell me that was the plan all along. We've stumbled on one - it's good, because a lot of managers don't even manage that much, and we've taken the steps we needed to take, but it's been messy and might yet be messy. There are plenty of loose ends.
^An objective view.^
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Oct 25, 2016 22:59:07 GMT
Nowt peculiar about Hughes' liking the look of a bearded Welsh gegenpressing 352 merchant. Still think the blueprint is Allen, Imbula {right left balance} with Bojan ahead. The current default has allowed Imbula to be a longer term project, but in the meantime I don't think Whelan, Allen and Bojan through the middle would work together. Would you do a Cattermole Whelan swap at xmas? Wished we'd done the Redmond Walters swap. I try not to stress too much about the minutaie if summat turns out good {Joe Allen} At the back of my mind I think the contract situation of several players etc there may be a bigger plan to reconfigure the squad in 17. In the meantime wring the last out of 'em. The minutiae is the future of our £18m record signing and Bojan though, so they're not really minutiae at all. I'd take Cattermole but not in a swap because that would still just leave us with one honest to god holding mid. Don't think the Redmond/Walters swap was ever a thing, but then I don't think you do either £18m is a mere trifle to me and Sir Pete in the grander scheme. More concerned about a young man in a new environment with bags of potential but still naive in the ways of the Prem. I'd rather him learn some lessons out of the spotlight {as Crouchie has said} and return 'better', Joe Allen affords us that luxury at the moment. Now he's here I'm not concentrating on the balance sheet. At his pomp against Bournemouth, and he was pretty good earlier this season I don't get the 'write off' feelings, it's player development ain't it? We agree it's looking better. For me we have a squad which allows for further experimentation in a positive sense, and cover in creative midfield for injuries. When Bojan got crocked it knackered that creative spark. I'm confident that we have combinations to cover a Whelan absence when it comes to that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2016 23:17:13 GMT
He's OK nothing more than that.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 25, 2016 23:22:21 GMT
The minutiae is the future of our £18m record signing and Bojan though, so they're not really minutiae at all. I'd take Cattermole but not in a swap because that would still just leave us with one honest to god holding mid. Don't think the Redmond/Walters swap was ever a thing, but then I don't think you do either £18m is a mere trifle to me and Sir Pete in the grander scheme. More concerned about a young man in a new environment with bags of potential but still naive in the ways of the Prem. I'd rather him learn some lessons out of the spotlight {as Crouchie has said} and return 'better', Joe Allen affords us that luxury at the moment. Now he's here I'm not concentrating on the balance sheet. At his pomp against Bournemouth, and he was pretty good earlier this season I don't get the 'write off' feelings, it's player development ain't it? We agree it's looking better. For me we have a squad which allows for further experimentation in a positive sense, and cover in creative midfield for injuries. When Bojan got crocked it knackered that creative spark. I'm confident that we have combinations to cover a Whelan absence when it comes to that.
So ultimately, when everybody is up to speed and the 'player development' is complete, you can clearly (already) see a scenario where Imbula and Allen start (successfully) in the same midfield?
You don't think there's any reason (at all) to doubt that they might not actually complement each other?
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Oct 25, 2016 23:25:37 GMT
Don't get it mate. At our worst we looked shaky in defence {Bruno} poor transition from midfield to attack {Allen}, fullbacks ineffective and left us exposed going forward, {That's been addressed by more discipline, a kick up the arse/rest for Ekker, Johnson back in and also now the tweaks in midfield}. The ball wouldn't stick up top so the inverted wingers didn't join the party enough {Bony}. We were shite at set pieces and corners. {Obviously there's been work there.} Oh yes and injuries {fingers crossed.} Winger {Sobhi}. Always could be better {see how he finishes it off in the xmas window} but far from directionless, to my thinking pretty bob on on addressing 'deficiencies'. The transition issue seems to suggest we're blithely writing off Imbula. What about the holding midfielder issue? Sobhi hasn't solved the winger issue because he can't get on the bench. We needed, in addition to him, a proper, ready to go wing option to compete straight away with Arnie and Shaq. We've addressed some of the problems with sticking plasters. That's great but don't tell me that was the plan all along. We've stumbled on one - it's good, because a lot of managers don't even manage that much, and we've taken the steps we needed to take, but it's been messy and might yet be messy. There are plenty of loose ends. Don't think anyone's blithely writing off Imbula. Working his bollocks off, watching videos and getting involved in 11 a sides at CW. Most likely some disappointment that he couldn't maintain his early showings, they're taking action to address it. Can't see it's terminal. Well, yes I'd like to see more of Sobhi. Happy to think it's just around the corner, it's looking less like we need to make the Crouch/Walters type subs with the stronger platform. It will come. Dunno about sticking plasters, s'pose you're right but it's a squad game etc, picking the right blokes for the right job at the right time. It's a bit dismissive of squad players performing well. Bardsley's also a sticking plaster in that respect. It will get messy at times in the Prem, with our ambitions.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Oct 25, 2016 23:29:08 GMT
£18m is a mere trifle to me and Sir Pete in the grander scheme. More concerned about a young man in a new environment with bags of potential but still naive in the ways of the Prem. I'd rather him learn some lessons out of the spotlight {as Crouchie has said} and return 'better', Joe Allen affords us that luxury at the moment. Now he's here I'm not concentrating on the balance sheet. At his pomp against Bournemouth, and he was pretty good earlier this season I don't get the 'write off' feelings, it's player development ain't it? We agree it's looking better. For me we have a squad which allows for further experimentation in a positive sense, and cover in creative midfield for injuries. When Bojan got crocked it knackered that creative spark. I'm confident that we have combinations to cover a Whelan absence when it comes to that.
So ultimately, when everybody is up to speed and the 'player development' is complete, you can clearly (already) see a scenario where Imbula and Allen start (successfully) in the same midfield?
You don't think there's any reason (at all) to doubt that they might not actually complement each other?
Well Paul, nothing is certain but I could certainly envisage it. I would advocate Cameron, Imbula, Allen now.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 25, 2016 23:37:08 GMT
So ultimately, when everybody is up to speed and the 'player development' is complete, you can clearly (already) see a scenario where Imbula and Allen start (successfully) in the same midfield?
You don't think there's any reason (at all) to doubt that they might not actually complement each other?
Well Paul, nothing is certain but I could certainly envisage it. I would advocate Cameron, Imbula, Allen now.
Well we're poles apart in our opinions then fella, though of course I respect yours.
I don't think that any one of those three have got the discipline to act as a sitting defensive mid protecting his centre backs and I'm equally convinced that neither one of them has got the guile to support a man leading the line, in the role of a traditional number 10.
We'd essentially end up with three players doing pretty much the same job, rather than three distinct ones.
I genuinely believe that we're just one player away (a quality defensive midfielder) from having the best starting XI (outside of the top six) in the Prem.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Oct 26, 2016 0:03:59 GMT
Well Paul, nothing is certain but I could certainly envisage it. I would advocate Cameron, Imbula, Allen now.
Well we're poles apart in our opinions then fella, though of course I respect yours.
I don't think that any one of those three have got the discipline to act as a sitting defensive mid protecting his centre backs and I'm equally convinced that neither one of them have got the guile to support a man leading the line, in the role of a traditional number 10.
We'd essentially end up with three players doing pretty much the same job, rather than three distinct ones.
I genuinely believe that we're just one player away (a quality defensive midfielder) from having the best starting XI (outside the top six) in the Prem.
I was referring to the more 433 shape which we've adopted. Cameron deeper, aerial and athletic, good at nicking it off toes, breaking up play, Imbula driving from deeper, Allen winning back possession in more advanced role {like now} offer different and complimentary attributes. Like you say, if we are just the one player away things are looking pretty good. {If it was a Molina or Lecygne things would be perfect.} Never really been overly convinced by the 4231 the way we've played it. {especially since N'Zonzi left}. Too much congestion across our three behind the striker. Not a massive fan of a lone striker, perhaps Bony would do it differently, but I could equally see it leading to him and a 10 occupying similar spaces. Dunno. Equally I'm not sure Hughes is so wedded to Whelan or indeed a Whelan {always}. Hughes is flexible with midfield set ups. Tried out all sorts of combos in his time here. He has tended to revert back to Whelan and another, until now Whelan plus 2. Interesting how it'll develop mate.
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