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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 19:24:47 GMT
I've really started to wonder at times this season if 'manager's orders' doesn't really happen much under Mark Hughes. Has it been quoted a few times that to a degree the manager lets players get on with it? I'm sure Muni alluded to it by referring to a lack of tactics and maybe Annie or Shaq said something similar Muni was talking about English football in general I think. He's always been known for being very 'hands off' in training though. And Allen has basically played the same way he did since his reinvention under Klopp.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 25, 2016 19:33:58 GMT
Could he have just been following managers orders though? It does seem pretty out of character from the rest of his career. I've really started to wonder at times this season if 'manager's orders' doesn't really happen much under Mark Hughes. That too could be the issue.....
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Post by alster on Oct 25, 2016 19:59:34 GMT
Allen plays a deeper more disciplined role for Wales just fine, its nonsense to suggest he's only capable of playing the most advanced midfield role. Its a completely new phenomenon in his professional career. Its been necessitated by Whelan's lack of energy and mobility to fulfill his own role properly. Sorry, that just isn't what we saw against Man City, Everton or Palace. It can't be down to Allen when he plays well and whoever the designated scapegoat is when he doesn't. In each of those games he went windmilling off around the pitch as he does and it left us painfully exposed and overrun. Whelan is struggling so he does need someone disciplined to share the load. Now we have that, even if both of the players in those positions are limited and sticking plasters, we've turned Allen's high energy action man routine into our chief asset. Went windmilling around the pitch as he does. Well it isn't what he does when he plays in the Wales midfield when Ramsay's playing, it isn't what he did when he played for Swansea. So as I've alluded to before he was either playing to instruction or in the absence of instruction was trying to do what klopp wants his players to do as a team. Joe Allen is not stupid and is perfectly able to play to instruction as part of a team gameplan. Sorry but He was either doing as Hughes and his team instructed, possibly meaning they envisioned him in the role he's currently being used in. If so it begs the question why they signed him its not an area we're short of alternatives in or he was basically running around doing his own thing which is rank bad management. Whichever way you want to look at it the management team have some fairly serious questions to answer as they do for having no replacement/competition for a player you yourself are stating is struggling. Again as I've already said if they couldn't see he was struggling the last 2 or 3 months(maybe they had blinkers on) of last season some sort of alarm bells should have started ringing when he lost his place in a poor Rep of Ire starting line up when he'd previously been virtually ever present. Maybe our shit start has done Hughes some good he seems to have become more decisive, since his somewhat whacky BMI to leftback experiment he seems to have decided what to do and stuck with it. Which is encouraging to me because as I've posted many times I felt he was suffering from some sort of mental malaise. Thankfully he reverted BMI to centre back, stuck by Grant despite the mixup that cost us a couple of points vs WBA, stuck by Bony despite his lack of goals, stuck with leaving his record buy out of the squad, stuck with the 2 CDM's despite the fact they offer little outside defensive solidity. I don't agree with it all but I'm really encouraged that he finally seems to be getting a grip instead of constantly fucking about.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 20:02:28 GMT
Sorry, that just isn't what we saw against Man City, Everton or Palace. It can't be down to Allen when he plays well and whoever the designated scapegoat is when he doesn't. In each of those games he went windmilling off around the pitch as he does and it left us painfully exposed and overrun. Whelan is struggling so he does need someone disciplined to share the load. Now we have that, even if both of the players in those positions are limited and sticking plasters, we've turned Allen's high energy action man routine into our chief asset. Went windmilling around the pitch as he does. Well it isn't what he does when he plays in the Wales midfield when Ramsay's playing, it isn't what he did when he played for Swansea. So as I've alluded to before he was either playing to instruction or in the absence of instruction was trying to do what klopp wants his players to do as a team. Joe Allen is not stupid and is perfectly able to play to instruction as part of a team gameplan. Sorry but He was either doing as Hughes and his team instructed, possibly meaning they envisioned him in the role he's currently being used in. If so it begs the question why they signed him its not an area we're short of alternatives in or he was basically running around doing his own thing which is rank bad management. Whichever way you want to look at it the management team have some fairly serious questions to answer as they do for having no replacement/competition for a player you yourself are stating is struggling. Again as I've already said if they couldn't see he was struggling the last 2 or 3 months(maybe they had blinkers on) of last season some sort of alarm bells should have started ringing when he lost his place in a poor Rep of Ire starting line up when he'd previously been virtually ever present. Maybe our shit start has done Hughes some good he seems to have become more decisive, since his somewhat whacky BMI to leftback experiment he seems to have decided what to do and stuck with it. Which is encouraging to me because as I've posted many times I felt he was suffering from some sort of mental malaise. Thankfully he reverted BMI to centre back, stuck by Grant despite the mixup that cost us a couple of points vs WBA, stuck by Bony despite his lack of goals, stuck with leaving his record buy out of the squad, stuck with the 2 CDM's despite the fact they offer little outside defensive solidity. I don't agree with it all but I'm really encouraged that he finally seems to be getting a grip instead of constantly fucking about. Agree with pretty much all of that. We've needed an alternative to Whelan since Hughes has been here, even when Glenn was playing really well, it's mystifying why he hasn't seen fit to sign one.
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Post by Squeekster on Oct 25, 2016 20:02:40 GMT
He's 100 times the player. Is he fuck!!!!!!!
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 20:03:58 GMT
He's 100 times the player. Is he fuck!!!!!!! He's at least 50 times the player. He'd walk into our side.
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Post by Squeekster on Oct 25, 2016 20:07:00 GMT
He's at least 50 times the player. He'd walk into our side. So would Geoff Cameron, oh hang on a minute he already does and does a dam good job already!
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Post by alster on Oct 25, 2016 20:07:11 GMT
Went windmilling around the pitch as he does. Well it isn't what he does when he plays in the Wales midfield when Ramsay's playing, it isn't what he did when he played for Swansea. So as I've alluded to before he was either playing to instruction or in the absence of instruction was trying to do what klopp wants his players to do as a team. Joe Allen is not stupid and is perfectly able to play to instruction as part of a team gameplan. Sorry but He was either doing as Hughes and his team instructed, possibly meaning they envisioned him in the role he's currently being used in. If so it begs the question why they signed him its not an area we're short of alternatives in or he was basically running around doing his own thing which is rank bad management. Whichever way you want to look at it the management team have some fairly serious questions to answer as they do for having no replacement/competition for a player you yourself are stating is struggling. Again as I've already said if they couldn't see he was struggling the last 2 or 3 months(maybe they had blinkers on) of last season some sort of alarm bells should have started ringing when he lost his place in a poor Rep of Ire starting line up when he'd previously been virtually ever present. Maybe our shit start has done Hughes some good he seems to have become more decisive, since his somewhat whacky BMI to leftback experiment he seems to have decided what to do and stuck with it. Which is encouraging to me because as I've posted many times I felt he was suffering from some sort of mental malaise. Thankfully he reverted BMI to centre back, stuck by Grant despite the mixup that cost us a couple of points vs WBA, stuck by Bony despite his lack of goals, stuck with leaving his record buy out of the squad, stuck with the 2 CDM's despite the fact they offer little outside defensive solidity. I don't agree with it all but I'm really encouraged that he finally seems to be getting a grip instead of constantly fucking about. Agree with pretty much all of that. We've needed an alternative to Whelan since Hughes has been here, even when Glenn was playing really well, it's mystifying why he hasn't seen fit to sign one. Agree with pretty much all of that except we've needed an upgrade on Glenn Whelan ever since we got promoted.
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Post by alster on Oct 25, 2016 20:08:32 GMT
He's at least 50 times the player. He'd walk into our side. So would Geoff Cameron, oh hang on a minute he already does and does a dam good job already! He's doing ok in a very limited role, calm yourself man.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 20:08:44 GMT
He's at least 50 times the player. He'd walk into our side. So would Geoff Cameron, oh hang on a minute he already does and does a dam good job already! He's still nowhere near as good as Schneiderlin. I'm pleased he's playing well for us and everything, but come on.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 20:10:33 GMT
Agree with pretty much all of that. We've needed an alternative to Whelan since Hughes has been here, even when Glenn was playing really well, it's mystifying why he hasn't seen fit to sign one. Agree with pretty much all of that except we've needed an upgrade on Glenn Whelan ever since we got promoted. Our best runs of form throughout our time in this league have come with him in the side. We absolutely could have improved on him, but not one of the umpteen players signed in central midfield by either manager in that time have been capable of doing that job as well as him. He's struggling now though no question.
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Post by alster on Oct 25, 2016 20:10:56 GMT
Agree with pretty much all of that. We've needed an alternative to Whelan since Hughes has been here, even when Glenn was playing really well, it's mystifying why he hasn't seen fit to sign one. Agree with pretty much all of that except we've needed an upgrade on Glenn Whelan ever since we got promoted. When we signed Wilson Palacios I really thought we had one. That turned out well
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 20:11:43 GMT
Agree with pretty much all of that except we've needed an upgrade on Glenn Whelan ever since we got promoted. When we signed Wilson Palacios I really thought we had one. That turned out well Yeah, he really should have been that man. Crying shame.
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Post by alster on Oct 25, 2016 20:13:25 GMT
Agree with pretty much all of that except we've needed an upgrade on Glenn Whelan ever since we got promoted. Our best runs of form throughout our time in this league have come with him in the side. We absolutely could have improved on him, but not one of the umpteen players signed in central midfield by either manager in that time have been capable of doing that job as well as him. He's struggling now though no question. We got promoted and had some good wins in the Prem with Mama in the team. He was still shit.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 20:15:48 GMT
Our best runs of form throughout our time in this league have come with him in the side. We absolutely could have improved on him, but not one of the umpteen players signed in central midfield by either manager in that time have been capable of doing that job as well as him. He's struggling now though no question. We got promoted and had some good wins in the Prem with Mama in the team. He was still shit. First season up he did a very good job in the role he was given I thought. Limited but fit the system played his role within it to a tee.
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Post by alster on Oct 25, 2016 20:16:40 GMT
When we signed Wilson Palacios I really thought we had one. That turned out well Yeah, he really should have been that man. Crying shame. What puzzles me about him the most is, despite his fitness issues why did he suddenly think he was Diego Maradona when we signed him and totally forget about being that tank of a midfield destroyer he'd been in a previous life.
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Post by alster on Oct 25, 2016 20:18:19 GMT
We got promoted and had some good wins in the Prem with Mama in the team. He was still shit. First season up he did a very good job in the role he was given I thought. Limited but fit the system played his role within it to a tee. Shocker Shit player has a role in a shit system that is a means to an end.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 20:18:38 GMT
Yeah, he really should have been that man. Crying shame. What puzzles me about him the most is, despite his fitness issues why did he suddenly think he was Diego Maradona when we signed him and totally forget about being that tank of a midfield destroyer he'd been in a previous life. Wonder if it was a case of trying too hard to prove he still had some mobility and his legs hadn't gone.
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Post by Squeekster on Oct 25, 2016 20:18:45 GMT
So would Geoff Cameron, oh hang on a minute he already does and does a dam good job already! He's doing ok in a very limited role, calm yourself man. Calm me self? He has been one of the most consistant performers since he arrived?
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 20:19:31 GMT
First season up he did a very good job in the role he was given I thought. Limited but fit the system played his role within it to a tee. Shocker Shit player has a role in a shit system that is a means to an end. If it works it's not a shit system, and a shit player still performs shit in a shit system.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 20:19:54 GMT
He's doing ok in a very limited role, calm yourself man. Calm me self? He has been one of the most consistant performers since he arrived? No he hasn't.
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Post by Squeekster on Oct 25, 2016 20:21:13 GMT
So would Geoff Cameron, oh hang on a minute he already does and does a dam good job already! He's still nowhere near as good as Schneiderlin. I'm pleased he's playing well for us and everything, but come on. Come on what? Yeah lets dream about Pogba and the like byt we are here and now.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Oct 25, 2016 20:22:02 GMT
What puzzles me about him the most is, despite his fitness issues why did he suddenly think he was Diego Maradona when we signed him and totally forget about being that tank of a midfield destroyer he'd been in a previous life. Wonder if it was a case of trying too hard to prove he still had some mobility and his legs hadn't gone. Seemed like his head had gone and he'd lost his hunger for nogger. A man who ties his own testicles in a knot isn't a man with his eye on the ball! Shame.
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Post by Squeekster on Oct 25, 2016 20:22:18 GMT
Calm me self? He has been one of the most consistant performers since he arrived? No he hasn't. Yes he has.
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Post by alster on Oct 25, 2016 20:22:27 GMT
Shocker Shit player has a role in a shit system that is a means to an end. If it works it's not a shit system, and a shit player still performs shit in a shit system. As I said it was a means to an end, Pulis didn't think so though he's still employing it.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 20:22:40 GMT
He's still nowhere near as good as Schneiderlin. I'm pleased he's playing well for us and everything, but come on. Come on what? Yeah lets dream about Pogba and the like byt we are here and now. Are you saying we can't hope to sign a better midfielder than Geoff Cameron?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 25, 2016 20:23:36 GMT
Bizarrely this argument has almost gone full circle now.
When Allen signed, I argued against a pretty loud call from a lot of people on this board that Allen was being brought here to replace Whelan.
Joe Allen is a box to box midfielder, always has been, always will be.
N-O-T A C-H-A-N-C-E that he'll ever have the discipline to learn to sit in front of the centre backs, shielding them.
But equally, he's not a traditional number 10 either. Sure he can make a better fist of that role than he would attempting to replace Glenn but it's still not his ideal position.
If we currently had Claude Makelele (in his prime) available to us right now, then I don't think anybody on here would argue that Makelele (as the sitting defensive mid), Allen (as the box to box midfielder) and a quality number 10 wouldn't be absolutely mustard for us, with our (inverted) wingers and Bony.
We almost certainly have got a quality number 10 (either Bojan or Shaqiri) on our books, Allen (is of course) already here but the missing (and very important) piece of that jigsaw (at the moment) is the quality defensive midfielder.
Obviously.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 20:24:29 GMT
If it works it's not a shit system, and a shit player still performs shit in a shit system. As I said it was a means to an end, Pulis didn't think so though he's still employing it. And it achieved that end, which at that particular time was fine for us. And we actually played some pretty decent stuff that season at times I thought. Although in fairness most of it once Mama was out of the side
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Post by Squeekster on Oct 25, 2016 20:27:57 GMT
Come on what? Yeah lets dream about Pogba and the like byt we are here and now. Are you saying we can't hope to sign a better midfielder than Geoff Cameron? I'm saying he's what we have at the moment and in my opinion is doing a fine job, of course there are players out there that can improve us but at the minute we have what we have!
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Post by chiefdelilah on Oct 25, 2016 20:29:35 GMT
Are you saying we can't hope to sign a better midfielder than Geoff Cameron? I'm saying he's what we have at the moment and in my opinion is doing a fine job, of course there are players out there that can improve us but at the minute we have what we have! I don't think anyone would argue he isn't playing well at the moment.
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