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Post by muglump on Jul 11, 2016 22:15:00 GMT
In the end of the day whether you agreed with the decision or not Hoddle was England manager and paid to make the tough decisions. He chose to leave Gascoigne out. Maybe he could have handled it better but in his opinion it was the right call and it was his right to make that decision. Gazza sadly had struggled with drink throughout his career and it's far to simplistic to put all the blame at one man's door. I suspect even if Gazza had gone to France and played well he'd still have succumbed to his inner demons in retirement once his life's great purpose, football, had gone. Having his international career ended there just speeded up the process. Hoddle is and was an arse but gazzers decline has nothing to do with him, mental health issues and addiction do
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 11, 2016 22:23:08 GMT
Is it too simplistic to say that the only thing gazza needs, and has needed throughout his life, is some true friends? Not the hangers on who are now nowhere to be seen but friends who love him for being Paul and not gazza. He was such a fantastic player, certainly the best I've ever seen live, its hard not to feel sorry for him and offer him sympathy you perhaps wouldn't extend to others in a similar situation. Where are Chris Evans, Danny Baker and Jimmy fivebellies now? Baker lays the blame for Gazza's issues firmly at the feet of Glenn Hoddle for leading him up the garden path and not picking him for France'98. That's life though! And a massive cop out on Bakers and Gazzas behalf.
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Post by chuffedstokie on Jul 11, 2016 22:34:31 GMT
Gazza is Gazza. He's unique, as are all of us. He can't help being what he is... or was. He was once a brilliant talent who we all loved, and now he's a bum because he can't handle life. You see people like him everywhere... on the streets of most cities throughout the world. I can't find it within myself to condemn him. I can only feel pity for him, as I do for most people who have become afflicted through drink or drugs. Some make it through their addiction and I'm pleased for them. Some don't, and that's when I feel compassion. There but for the grace of *'God'* go all of us etc. *'God'*... I'm not religious. OS. Never a truer word. The line between sinking or swimming in relation to this is indeed fine. A person has to really want to be well, it is possible but very difficult and requires a lot of dedication. You have to wish and hope for the best for him but it's not looking good.
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Jul 11, 2016 22:34:32 GMT
In the end of the day whether you agreed with the decision or not Hoddle was England manager and paid to make the tough decisions. He chose to leave Gascoigne out. Maybe he could have handled it better but in his opinion it was the right call and it was his right to make that decision. Gazza sadly had struggled with drink throughout his career and it's far to simplistic to put all the blame at one man's door. I suspect even if Gazza had gone to France and played well he'd still have succumbed to his inner demons in retirement once his life's great purpose, football, had gone. Having his international career ended there just speeded up the process. His life had been unraveling for years before that. Exactly the course of his life was already set. Football gave him a focus and a purpose which staved off the real meltdowns, and also his body was still young enough to take the punishment so it was easier to live his lifestyle. Once the football was gone he had nothing left to focus on and so sadly there was nothing to distract him from his inner turmoil. And as others have said it didn't help that he was surrounded by all the wrong people who just encouraged it and didn't give the support he clearly needed.
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Post by dan55 on Jul 11, 2016 22:35:23 GMT
I loved Italy 90 and Gazza will always be my hero. No England player has come close to this since... Atleast those were real tears and not the fake ones they cried after losing to Iceland. If we had 11 Paul Gascoignes we'd win every game.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2016 22:59:00 GMT
Wife beater, drunk, pill popper and with obvious personality problems. Not sure about the mental illness bit. Had numerous interventions and chances for 'redemption'. not taken one. In every interview I've ever seen has never honestly taken responsibility for his actions. Ever.
Unless he has a major epiphany which I doubt he's a dead man walking. And not for long
GD
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Post by nottinghamstokie on Jul 12, 2016 12:41:34 GMT
Not the most crucial aspect of this incredibly sad state of affairs, but.....I am always puzzled as to exactly where he gets his money from ? He isn’t, to the best of my knowledge, working in anything "paid", in his career he would have been well-paid relative to the times but that was a long time back, and I can’t imagine he did any “wise investing” ( slightly presumptive on my part but I would be surprised )
So, booze, fags, taxis (but, seemingly, not clothes ) - how does he do it ?
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Post by ElworthPotter on Jul 12, 2016 13:27:57 GMT
In the end of the day whether you agreed with the decision or not Hoddle was England manager and paid to make the tough decisions. He chose to leave Gascoigne out. Maybe he could have handled it better but in his opinion it was the right call and it was his right to make that decision. Gazza sadly had struggled with drink throughout his career and it's far to simplistic to put all the blame at one man's door. I suspect even if Gazza had gone to France and played well he'd still have succumbed to his inner demons in retirement once his life's great purpose, football, had gone. Having his international career ended there just speeded up the process. Totally agree, regardless of whether Hoddle made Gazza think he was getting picked, he was off the rails at that point and the disappointment of not being picked probably only marginally sped that process up. The man has got a hell of a lot of issues and these can't be attributed to not getting picked for a footall tournament
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Jul 12, 2016 13:36:19 GMT
Not the most crucial aspect of this incredibly sad state of affairs, but.....I am always puzzled as to exactly where he gets his money from ? He isn’t, to the best of my knowledge, working in anything "paid", in his career he would have been well-paid relative to the times but that was a long time back, and I can’t imagine he did any “wise investing” ( slightly presumptive on my part but I would be surprised ) So, booze, fags, taxis (but, seemingly, not clothes ) - how does he do it ? he was skint until last year when he was awarded nearly £200k in court by the Daily Mirror for hacking his phone (along with some other celebs who were awarded compensation during the same trial). apparently his net worth is now estimated at around half that. pretty sure we can guess where it's all gone so far. whether it's Baker's/Evans/fault or he's 100% to blame himself, it still doesn't change the fact it's horrible to see anyone go through this. for people to say "It's his own fault, fuck him" shows more about them and their compassion towards others than it does anything else. who is culpable also doesn't just delete from history what he did years ago at his peak (which is what we all remember and rightly celebrate him for). it's a sad thing when this happens to anyone, celebrity or not so i wish him well...although i can't seen any other outcome to this whole state of affairs other than an early bath in the sky
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Post by dirtygary69 on Jul 12, 2016 13:40:40 GMT
Sadly, these relapses seem more and more frequent, to the point where it's just the norm again rather than purely a 'relapse'. He hasn't got the character, belief or support network to keep off the booze and, unfortunately, I see no way that he'll ever properly turn the corner.
He's 50 next year. It's doubtful he'll make that.
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Post by pottersrule on Jul 12, 2016 13:53:48 GMT
Not the most crucial aspect of this incredibly sad state of affairs, but.....I am always puzzled as to exactly where he gets his money from ? He isn’t, to the best of my knowledge, working in anything "paid", in his career he would have been well-paid relative to the times but that was a long time back, and I can’t imagine he did any “wise investing” ( slightly presumptive on my part but I would be surprised ) So, booze, fags,5 taxis (but, seemingly, not clothes ) - how does he do it ? he was skint until last year when he was awarded nearly £200k in court by the Daily Mirror for hacking his phone (along with some other celebs who were awarded compensation during the same trial). apparently his net worth is now estimated at around half that. pretty sure we can guess where it's all gone so far. whether it's Baker's/Evans/fault or he's 100% to blame himself, it still doesn't change the fact it's horrible to see anyone go through this. for people to say "It's his own fault, fuck him" shows more about them and their compassion towards others than it does anything else. who is culpable also doesn't just delete from history what he did years ago at his peak (which is what we all remember and rightly celebrate him for). it's a sad thing when this happens to anyone, celebrity or not so i wish him well...although i can't seen any other outcome to this whole state of affairs other than an early bath in the sky Some of the comments on here, and lack of compassion, are sub human.
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Post by ElworthPotter on Jul 12, 2016 14:01:39 GMT
he was skint until last year when he was awarded nearly £200k in court by the Daily Mirror for hacking his phone (along with some other celebs who were awarded compensation during the same trial). apparently his net worth is now estimated at around half that. pretty sure we can guess where it's all gone so far. whether it's Baker's/Evans/fault or he's 100% to blame himself, it still doesn't change the fact it's horrible to see anyone go through this. for people to say "It's his own fault, fuck him" shows more about them and their compassion towards others than it does anything else. who is culpable also doesn't just delete from history what he did years ago at his peak (which is what we all remember and rightly celebrate him for). it's a sad thing when this happens to anyone, celebrity or not so i wish him well...although i can't seen any other outcome to this whole state of affairs other than an early bath in the sky Some of the comments on here, and lack of compassion, are sub human. You can understand a lack of compassion for a man that's been offered help time and time again though can't you? I don't think anybody has suggested that alcoholism isn't an awful illness. But as someone else said he's had access to the best facilities and more resources than many many people who successfully beat alcoholism have had and he's had hundreds of thousands of pounds spent on him. Those of us who haven't gone through it don't know what it's like but surely you can see why his continuing to choose to pick up the bottle results in a lack of sympathy?
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Post by trentvale68 on Jul 12, 2016 14:14:03 GMT
Some of the comments on here, and lack of compassion, are sub human. You can understand a lack of compassion for a man that's been offered help time and time again though can't you? I don't think anybody has suggested that alcoholism isn't an awful illness. But as someone else said he's had access to the best facilities and more resources than many many people who successfully beat alcoholism have had and he's had hundreds of thousands of pounds spent on him. Those of us who haven't gone through it don't know what it's like but surely you can see why his continuing to choose to pick up the bottle results in a lack of sympathy? I totally can see this viewpoint, having battled things like depression myself and had very little support from things like the DWP etc.
He has had SO much more assistance than anyone that you'll see around Hanley bus station etc. And there does come a point where people will see that its banging your head against a brick wall.
I still feel sympathy for him but I'm not convinced of any real desire on his part to change either. Its certainly last chance saloon.
I think we all know how the story ends but no one could ever say that society failed him in any way, not anymore at least.
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Post by trentvale68 on Jul 12, 2016 14:18:06 GMT
Sadly, these relapses seem more and more frequent, to the point where it's just the norm again rather than purely a 'relapse'. He hasn't got the character, belief or support network to keep off the booze and, unfortunately, I see no way that he'll ever properly turn the corner. He's 50 next year. It's doubtful he'll make that. A support network is massive; once family are no longer there as often happens to people who don't have partners & children and in time lose people like parents etc then these problems become like mountains rather than hills
I wonder, are his parents still living??
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Post by podolipotter on Jul 12, 2016 15:07:07 GMT
Learn fellows, learn. An addict is simply that - an addict for life - until death breaks the mould. Sad but, looking at Gazza's recent photo, that would not appear to be far off.
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Post by trentvale68 on Jul 12, 2016 16:02:17 GMT
Learn fellows, learn. An addict is simply that - an addict for life - until death breaks the mould. Sad but, looking at Gazza's recent photo, that would not appear to be far off. He's got that sunken cheeked look about him; looks more 69 than 49.
Classic case of a young man who had too much too soon and wasn't able to handle it. I would imagine his liver & kidneys are well fucked judging by his appearance
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Jul 12, 2016 16:22:52 GMT
Learn fellows, learn. An addict is simply that - an addict for life - until death breaks the mould. Sad but, looking at Gazza's recent photo, that would not appear to be far off. He's got that sunken cheeked look about him; looks more 69 than 49.
Classic case of a young man who had too much too soon and wasn't able to handle it. I would imagine his liver & kidneys are well fucked judging by his appearance
what was interesting was something i saw on telly the other week ( i think it was mentioned in the Shearer euro 96 doc...but don't quote me on that) where they seemed to infer that his character had always been the same since he was younger i.e. the clown of the group, liked his partying and heavy drinking with his mates he'd had from when he was a kid (i.e. before all the media and public adulation and before he was a star) and it was basically only his absolute love for football that stopped him sliding off the rails at a far younger age. i always wonder "What could have been" for both him and England if he hadn't committed that awful tackle that fucked his knee up (although he should have had a straight red a few minutes earlier anyway and didn't help himself by getting pissed up during his lay off and getting injured again in a nightclub ). height of his powers back then and god only knows how different his life may have panned out if he'd just been able to keep going without a long absence from the game before then going on to Lazio.
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Post by pottersrule on Jul 12, 2016 17:16:23 GMT
Some of the comments on here, and lack of compassion, are sub human. You can understand a lack of compassion for a man that's been offered help time and time again though can't you? I don't think anybody has suggested that alcoholism isn't an awful illness. But as someone else said he's had access to the best facilities and more resources than many many people who successfully beat alcoholism have had and he's had hundreds of thousands of pounds spent on him. Those of us who haven't gone through it don't know what it's like but surely you can see why his continuing to choose to pick up the bottle results in a lack of sympathy? I genuinely feel sorry for anyone who viewed those photos of Paul Gascoigne,without feeling any compassion.
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Post by trentvale68 on Jul 12, 2016 17:19:04 GMT
It might even have been better if he'd never even been a footballer at all and had a normal life, without the temptations of a celeb life
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2016 17:19:16 GMT
i always wonder "What could have been" for both him and England if he hadn't committed that awful tackle that fucked his knee up (although he should have had a straight red a few minutes earlier anyway and didn't help himself by getting pissed up during his lay off and getting injured again in a nightclub ). height of his powers back then and god only knows how different his life may have panned out if he'd just been able to keep going without a long absence from the game before then going on to Lazio. No way of knowing obviously, but my personal opinion is that his career would have been enhanced because he was never quite the same player after the injury, but I think that as a person he'd have been exactly where he is now. His demons (again, just a guess) have been magnified because he once had the world at his feet and then after his career finished that all ended. He didn't have the nous to be a manager, coach or pundit, so there was no place for him in the football world. From his book, he seems to have given his money away or lost it due to unscrupulous people he picked up along the way. All this would have happened even if he'd not picked up the injury. Maybe his life would have been different if some of the earlier events in his life hadn't have happened, but his life path has been mapped out for a good while now. Horrible to see. Magical player.
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Post by trentvale68 on Jul 12, 2016 17:22:49 GMT
Lou Macari said something very similar as regards to the loss of his son in 1999, that for some young men, its just all too much too soon.
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Post by 1raytuper on Jul 12, 2016 18:32:12 GMT
the childhood trauma of feeling responsible for the death of his best friends brother plus later in life reassuring his young cousin that he would be fine to play football even though he suffered with asthma and losing his young cousin after he collapsed and died after playing football is enough to drive the strongest person to drink etc. if you think these events wouldnt fook ur head up then carry on slagging gazza off!!!! instead of being so quick to judge and condemn gazza,do a little research on pauls "demons" . sadly i am no longer surprised at the amount of muppets who frequent this forum !
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Post by monksnun on Jul 12, 2016 19:36:39 GMT
Clearly a troubled man. What i want to know is how do the sun know he bought gin? Someone's tucked him up. Shitehawks
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Post by muglump on Jul 12, 2016 21:24:01 GMT
Okay this is about heroine but the principle applies, you can't hold up the setting sun
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Post by spiderpuss on Jul 12, 2016 21:28:28 GMT
And so yet another episode in the Gascoigne saga. You really don't whether to feel sorrow, anger or pity. Certainly its long past being sympathetic. At 50 and his condition there can only be so much punishment his frail body can take. The writing is on the wall.
You do wonder if he was to get himself straight what he'd actually do with himself? As far as I known he has no known skill outside football. What does a washed up 50 year old do? And there certainly is one part of the problem. When the tour featuring waggish dentist chair stories has done the rounds and the fans are tired of hearing it anymore it must be a very lonely prospect being Paul Gascoigne. Apart from some fellow piss heads who wouldn't really know if they were speaking to a flannel or someone more human there's no one at all to reach out to.
Its a horrible situation one of best English footballers ever has found themselves in. A very sad story indeed.
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Post by superheroantonius on Jul 13, 2016 8:17:32 GMT
As others have noted he genuinely felt responsible for the deaths of young friends as a teenager. I think on one occasion he kicked a ball between some parked cars and when his young friend went to retrieve the ball he was run over. He got a job for a young lad playing for Newcastle or maybe Sunderland? Under 18s in a local builders yard where he died in an at work accident. It is just an awful story
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Post by ElworthPotter on Jul 13, 2016 9:18:57 GMT
i always wonder "What could have been" for both him and England if he hadn't committed that awful tackle that fucked his knee up (although he should have had a straight red a few minutes earlier anyway and didn't help himself by getting pissed up during his lay off and getting injured again in a nightclub ). height of his powers back then and god only knows how different his life may have panned out if he'd just been able to keep going without a long absence from the game before then going on to Lazio. I really believe that with someone like Gazza, regardless of how his career had gone, he would have ended up this way. A man with a personality like his with mental issues like his who doesn't want to be helped is never going to end well. Had his career been more successful it may have been prolonged and may have delayed or slowed his heavy drinking, but the heavy drinking would always have come. Had it been less successful then he probably would have gone down the slippery slope quicker. We can't say that if he hadn't had his long injury then he wouldn't have experienced all this because he was already well on his way with he boozing and partying by that point really. It's ingrained in him unfortunately
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Post by metalhead on Jul 13, 2016 10:36:46 GMT
i always wonder "What could have been" for both him and England if he hadn't committed that awful tackle that fucked his knee up (although he should have had a straight red a few minutes earlier anyway and didn't help himself by getting pissed up during his lay off and getting injured again in a nightclub ). height of his powers back then and god only knows how different his life may have panned out if he'd just been able to keep going without a long absence from the game before then going on to Lazio. I really believe that with someone like Gazza, regardless of how his career had gone, he would have ended up this way. A man with a personality like his with mental issues like his who doesn't want to be helped is never going to end well. Had his career been more successful it may have been prolonged and may have delayed or slowed his heavy drinking, but the heavy drinking would always have come. Had it been less successful then he probably would have gone down the slippery slope quicker. We can't say that if he hadn't had his long injury then he wouldn't have experienced all this because he was already well on his way with he boozing and partying by that point really. It's ingrained in him unfortunately Totally disagree. It's all about how a manager deals with personalities. He signed for Spurs at a time when Venables really didn't give a flying shit about how the players acted. There was a huge drinking culture in football at that time. Now, had he signed for Man Utd? It would have been a different story. Ferguson was slowly but surely killing the drinking culture at Man Utd and other clubs have followed suit. In fact, our own manager Sparky, talks about how Ferguson stamped out that kind of crap in this article: www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/10051322/Mark-Hughes-Sir-Alex-Ferguson-was-ruthless-at-Manchester-United-but-usually-made-the-right-decisions.htmlFerguson would not have allowed Gascoigne to become involved in those kind of circles. Gazza became a celebrity at Tottenham, all too easily and while Venables macro-managed Gazza, Ferguson would have micro-managed him to the point that it would not have happened, like he did with other players who he felt were getting involved in the wrong crowd.
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Post by ElworthPotter on Jul 13, 2016 10:49:02 GMT
I really believe that with someone like Gazza, regardless of how his career had gone, he would have ended up this way. A man with a personality like his with mental issues like his who doesn't want to be helped is never going to end well. Had his career been more successful it may have been prolonged and may have delayed or slowed his heavy drinking, but the heavy drinking would always have come. Had it been less successful then he probably would have gone down the slippery slope quicker. We can't say that if he hadn't had his long injury then he wouldn't have experienced all this because he was already well on his way with he boozing and partying by that point really. It's ingrained in him unfortunately Totally disagree. It's all about how a manager deals with personalities. He signed for Spurs at a time when Venables really didn't give a flying shit about how the players acted. There was a huge drinking culture in football at that time. Now, had he signed for Man Utd? It would have been a different story. Ferguson was slowly but surely killing the drinking culture at Man Utd and other clubs have followed suit. In fact, our own manager Sparky, talks about how Ferguson stamped out that kind of crap in this article: www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/10051322/Mark-Hughes-Sir-Alex-Ferguson-was-ruthless-at-Manchester-United-but-usually-made-the-right-decisions.htmlFerguson would not have allowed Gascoigne to become involved in those kind of circles. Gazza became a celebrity at Tottenham, all too easily and while Venables macro-managed Gazza, Ferguson would have micro-managed him to the point that it would not have happened, like he did with other players who he felt were getting involved in the wrong crowd. I agree with that to a certain extent, but if you assume he's a success at Man United, he plays there for 10 years, is adored and loved and plays more for England, then it comes to an end and what else has he got? It might have lengthened his career but when it came to its end, there would still be that unstable lad with the same contributory factors from his childhood and the same addictive personality, who loved nothing but football and, now unable to play football, with lots of money and lots of time on his hands. Of course, this is all assuming Fergie had managed to control him, he might have failed to manage him at all
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Post by metalhead on Jul 13, 2016 10:56:59 GMT
Totally disagree. It's all about how a manager deals with personalities. He signed for Spurs at a time when Venables really didn't give a flying shit about how the players acted. There was a huge drinking culture in football at that time. Now, had he signed for Man Utd? It would have been a different story. Ferguson was slowly but surely killing the drinking culture at Man Utd and other clubs have followed suit. In fact, our own manager Sparky, talks about how Ferguson stamped out that kind of crap in this article: www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/10051322/Mark-Hughes-Sir-Alex-Ferguson-was-ruthless-at-Manchester-United-but-usually-made-the-right-decisions.htmlFerguson would not have allowed Gascoigne to become involved in those kind of circles. Gazza became a celebrity at Tottenham, all too easily and while Venables macro-managed Gazza, Ferguson would have micro-managed him to the point that it would not have happened, like he did with other players who he felt were getting involved in the wrong crowd. I agree with that to a certain extent, but if you assume he's a success at Man United, he plays there for 10 years, is adored and loved and plays more for England, then it comes to an end and what else has he got? It might have lengthened his career but when it came to its end, there would still be that unstable lad with the same contributory factors from his childhood and the same addictive personality, who loved nothing but football and, now unable to play football, with lots of money and lots of time on his hands. Of course, this is all assuming Fergie had managed to control him, he might have failed to manage him at all Who knows what he becomes? A youth coach maybe? Gazza isn't particularly smart, but you don't have to be if you can convey your message properly, understand and demonstrate football to those with lesser understanding and technical abilities than yourself. He's tried to become a coach since football, so perhaps under the guidance of Ferguson, it might have happened. As his life turned out, he was never going to be a long-term coach, because he was slowly but surely becoming unemployable as his career melted away and his battle with alcohol intensified. He coached a little in China and then managed Boston, but seemed to have an alcohol-fuelled meltdown while he was there. Every small-time managerial job since has been totally fucked up due to his alcoholism.
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