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Post by mickmillslovechild on Apr 26, 2016 17:52:19 GMT
That's unnecessary and inappropriate. Will you delete the post please? Sorry, but why exactly is it? This is a message board and those two argued long and hard that Liverpool fans were to blame. They werent the only ones. They weren't shy of voicing their opinions then and I'm confident they'll either be completely absent from this thread or try to defend their original positions if they show up. Wonder of wonders you might even get one to publically accept being wrong but don't hold your breath. Meanwhile if it helps people form opinions on their other posts then that's probably a good thing. 1) this thread is about the victims and the families of the victims who have campaigned tirelessly to get to this point. It is NOT a thread for slagging off individuals and saying "Ha i told you so" 2) whatever their opinions on hillsborough were, that has no relevance whatsoever on their opinions on completely different matters on completely different threads. To say someone was wrong about 1 matter so therefore they must be wrong about everything is utterly ludicrous, childish and displays a complete lack of common sense, intellect and logic. Try and show at least some decorum and maturity on this kind of thread won't you? Threads like this should not be closed down due to completely neanderthal posts like your original one. Give me strength!!!
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Post by Parkhall Wanderer on Apr 26, 2016 17:56:19 GMT
RIP and justice at last for the 96 and their families. SYP Senior officers involved on that fateful day now have live with this for the rest of their days and being exposed as a disgrace to the uniform. I have no sympathy may you rot in hell.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Apr 26, 2016 18:12:38 GMT
RIP and justice at last for the 96 and their families. SYP Senior officers involved on that fateful day now have live with this for the rest of their days and being exposed as a disgrace to the uniform. I have no sympathy may you rot in hell. One of the saddest things about the 27 years that it has taken to arrive at a truthful inquest verdict, is that many (probably most) of the culpable senior Police, Ambulance service personnel etc. have died and thus will not have to suffer the ignominy and shame of a criminal trial or compensation hearing. I hope that not only will the lessons of the disaster be learned by the authorities at fault for the disaster and the cover up, but also by those responsible for our justice system which totally failed to find the truth 27 years ago but also failed ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS to take one of the MANY chances that there were to put things right a long time ago.
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Apr 26, 2016 18:33:12 GMT
It could have been any football fan at that time , Well done to the people for sticking together and seeing it through for so long
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Apr 26, 2016 18:35:59 GMT
What is has also done is highlight the lies and corrupt practices of the establishment. Make no mistake these practices have been rife over the last few decades. And I'm called leftfield without foundation on another thread. Next stop the Miners...justice will be done.
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Post by starkiller on Apr 26, 2016 18:41:20 GMT
RIP and justice at last for the 96 and their families. SYP Senior officers involved on that fateful day now have live with this for the rest of their days and being exposed as a disgrace to the uniform. I have no sympathy may you rot in hell. One of the saddest things about the 27 years that it has taken to arrive at a truthful inquest verdict, is that many (probably most) of the culpable senior Police, Ambulance service personnel etc. have died and thus will not have to suffer the ignominy and shame of a criminal trial or compensation hearing. I hope that not only will the lessons of the disaster be learned by the authorities at fault for the disaster and the cover up, but also by those responsible for our justice system which totally failed to find the truth 27 years ago but also failed ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS to take one of the MANY chances that there were to put things right a long time ago. There was no failure to find the truth. Documents were falsified to prevent the public knowing the truth. And the media (not just the sun) actively spread lies, including the fake tickets claim.
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Post by skip on Apr 26, 2016 18:57:43 GMT
What is has also done is highlight the lies and corrupt practices of the establishment. Make no mistake these practices have been rife over the last few decades. And I'm called leftfield without foundation on another thread.Next stop the Miners...justice will be done. Particularly in this day and age I'd take it as a compliment.
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Post by lordherefordsknob on Apr 26, 2016 18:58:01 GMT
This is hugely important Cheadle was under the impression many tickeless fans turned up other fans believe many were pissed & other myths/lies have been propagated as facts as such unless you are paying full attention it's logical to assume the fans were in part to blame Howvever once you realise,as Cheadle has,that he has been lied to & that there was no misbehaviour,there we're not many ticketless &/or drunk fans (Liverpool fnas were very late because the motorways we're buggered,as such they hadn't had chance to go the the pub before nand,as such there we're far less drunk fans than normal)e.t.c once you realise that it was all part of a desperate & comprehensive cover up then regardless of what anyone thinks of Liverpool FC & it's supporters it is surely logical to become very angry indeed. This could have happened to any of us. It almost did happen to us which makes the fan blaming more sickening. On the 31st January 1989 Stoke played an FA Cup replay at Barnsley. Thousands of Stoke supporters arrived late due to traffic congestion. Outside the ground a crush developed and people were getting hurt. The initial response was to send a police horse running through the crowd which only exacerbated the chaos. To ease the congestion the police opened one of the huge exit gates which allowed the crowd to enter the ground free of charge. This was the response the same force used two months later at Hillsborough. Had there been more Stoke supporters on the away terrace that night we could have suffered that awful disaster. Same situation, same police force, same reaction. We, like all football supporters, were actually riding our luck, not just on that night, but for so many years. There was very little consideration for the issue of crowd safety over crowd control. It could have been any of us with the loss of life….. and the same scandalous tabloid lies. The only difference from this day to what happened at Hillsborough is that we went through a side turnstile onto a larger terrace otherwise a lot of people could of got hurt on this day. My biggest question out of all this is how are the FA getting off so lightly for allowing the match to take place in the first place in a ground that had no safety certificate?
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Post by no1972 on Apr 26, 2016 19:24:21 GMT
Just a shame that bitch Thatcher is not around to see all this May she rot in hell She turned the police into a political force who though they were above the law and could lie in court and would be believed because they were the police.I personally knew Paul Murrary he used to watch Normacot Crusaders on a Sunday morning were his dad Tony played,I remember our manager John Lewis breaking the news to all of Tony's team mates on the Sunday morning,as if it was yesterday.RIP Paul.
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Post by onlyonesirstan on Apr 26, 2016 19:31:30 GMT
Just a shame that bitch Thatcher is not around to see all this May she rot in hell She turned the police into a political force who though they were above the law and could lie in court and would be believed because they were the police.I personally knew Paul Murrary he used to watch Normacot Crusaders on a Sunday morning were his dad Tony played,I remember our manager John Lewis breaking the news to all of Tony's team mates on the Sunday morning,as if it was yesterday.RIP Paul. now it's, Margaret Thatchers fault, unbelievable. How much lower is this board going to get?
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Apr 26, 2016 19:44:05 GMT
She turned the police into a political force who though they were above the law and could lie in court and would be believed because they were the police.I personally knew Paul Murrary he used to watch Normacot Crusaders on a Sunday morning were his dad Tony played,I remember our manager John Lewis breaking the news to all of Tony's team mates on the Sunday morning,as if it was yesterday.RIP Paul. now it's, Margaret Thatchers fault, unbelievable. How much lower is this board going to get? It's an opinion - surely people are allowed an opinion? And saying that Thatcher politicised the Police Force is hardly a revolutionary concept coming from anyone who remembers Orgreave, is it?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 19:48:13 GMT
now it's, Margaret Thatchers fault, unbelievable. How much lower is this board going to get? It's an opinion - surely people are allowed an opinion? And saying that Thatcher politicised the Police Force is hardly a revolutionary concept coming from anyone who remembers Orgreave, is it? You're only allowed an opinion if it not contradictory to the inquest finding, or you will get slaughtered and abused.
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Post by onlyonesirstan on Apr 26, 2016 19:51:04 GMT
now it's, Margaret Thatchers fault, unbelievable. How much lower is this board going to get? It's an opinion - surely people are allowed an opinion? And saying that Thatcher politicised the Police Force is hardly a revolutionary concept coming from anyone who remembers Orgreave, is it? Lakeland, I agree people are allowed an opinion, but to blame a Prime Minister is a bit much. So in the NHS strike about to happen, is it Hunt or camerons fault? For the glasgow airport terrorist attack, is that the PM's fault, Home Secretary's fault or the security services fault. The list is endless mate.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Apr 26, 2016 20:03:44 GMT
It's an opinion - surely people are allowed an opinion? And saying that Thatcher politicised the Police Force is hardly a revolutionary concept coming from anyone who remembers Orgreave, is it? Lakeland, I agree people are allowed an opinion, but to blame a Prime Minister is a bit much. So in the NHS strike about to happen, is it Hunt or camerons fault? For the glasgow airport terrorist attack, is that the PM's fault, Home Secretary's fault or the security services fault. The list is endless mate. I'm not being political here - but why is blaming a Prime Minister "a bit much"? Many of us alive at the time of Orgreave couldn't see any other explanation for what happened than that a) the police went well beyond their legitimate powers and b) that the Political establishment at the time, at best were content for it to happen and at worst instigated it. And I am someone who thinks Scargill was as much to blame for the way the miner's strike started and escalated as the government was. I'm quite happy to lay blame at the feet of Scargill and Thatcher. I don't see the point you are making about the Junior doctor's strike or the Glasgow airport attack - what have they to do with the politicisation of the Police a quarter of a century ago?
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Post by no1972 on Apr 26, 2016 20:21:37 GMT
Lakeland, I agree people are allowed an opinion, but to blame a Prime Minister is a bit much. So in the NHS strike about to happen, is it Hunt or camerons fault? For the glasgow airport terrorist attack, is that the PM's fault, Home Secretary's fault or the security services fault. The list is endless mate. I'm not being political here - but why is blaming a Prime Minister "a bit much"? Many of us alive at the time of Orgreave couldn't see any other explanation for what happened than that a) the police went well beyond their legitimate powers and b) that the Political establishment at the time, at best were content for it to happen and at worst instigated it. And I am someone who thinks Scargill was as much to blame for the way the miner's strike started and escalated out as the government was. I'm quite happy to lay blame at the feet of Scargill and Thatcher. I don't see the point you are making about the Junior doctor's strike or the Glasgow airport attack - what have they to do with the politicisation of the Police a quarter of a century ago? I was on the picket line,the police though they were above the law and could lie in court like they did at Hillsbourgh,because she gave them the protection against prosecution .
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Post by jimigoodwinsbeard on Apr 26, 2016 20:26:10 GMT
This is hugely important Cheadle was under the impression many tickeless fans turned up other fans believe many were pissed & other myths/lies have been propagated as facts as such unless you are paying full attention it's logical to assume the fans were in part to blame Howvever once you realise,as Cheadle has,that he has been lied to & that there was no misbehaviour,there we're not many ticketless &/or drunk fans (Liverpool fnas were very late because the motorways we're buggered,as such they hadn't had chance to go the the pub before nand,as such there we're far less drunk fans than normal)e.t.c once you realise that it was all part of a desperate & comprehensive cover up then regardless of what anyone thinks of Liverpool FC & it's supporters it is surely logical to become very angry indeed. This could have happened to any of us. It almost did happen to us which makes the fan blaming more sickening. On the 31st January 1989 Stoke played an FA Cup replay at Barnsley. Thousands of Stoke supporters arrived late due to traffic congestion. Outside the ground a crush developed and people were getting hurt. The initial response was to send a police horse running through the crowd which only exacerbated the chaos. To ease the congestion the police opened one of the huge exit gates which allowed the crowd to enter the ground free of charge. This was the response the same force used two months later at Hillsborough. Had there been more Stoke supporters on the away terrace that night we could have suffered that awful disaster. Same situation, same police force, same reaction. We, like all football supporters, were actually riding our luck, not just on that night, but for so many years. There was very little consideration for the issue of crowd safety over crowd control. It could have been any of us with the loss of life….. and the same scandalous tabloid lies. I remember being at that game and being picked up off my feet from the sheer push when they opened that gate. I never realised it was couple of months before Hillsborough.
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Post by PotterLog on Apr 26, 2016 20:36:18 GMT
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Post by owdestokie on Apr 26, 2016 20:43:46 GMT
She turned the police into a political force who though they were above the law and could lie in court and would be believed because they were the police.I personally knew Paul Murrary he used to watch Normacot Crusaders on a Sunday morning were his dad Tony played,I remember our manager John Lewis breaking the news to all of Tony's team mates on the Sunday morning,as if it was yesterday.RIP Paul. now it's, Margaret Thatchers fault, unbelievable. How much lower is this board going to get? It wasn't Thatchers fault. You're absolutely correct, however She and other senior public servants were an integral part to a massive cover up. I wonder if the Murdoch press will show any form of contrition following the outcome of today's outcome? Until today (and I apologise) I didn't realise one of our community was a victim of that terrible day. Those who used this message board in the not to distant past to make outlandshish statements should hang their heads in shame. That's if they can read and have any form of moral standards. Sincere thoughts of goodwill and envy should be with all those who have faught all sorts of discrimination, lies and barriers for many years.
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Post by crapslinger on Apr 26, 2016 20:58:50 GMT
It could have been any football fan at that time , Well done to the people for sticking together and seeing it through for so long Questions need answering on this who changed witness statements including those of serving police officers, the police force as it was called then were a law unto themselves not that much as changed, thugs in uniform hiding behind a badge/number that is if the number has not been covered up like a lot of the actions these law enforcers have been involved in feckin cowards they need exposing and bringing to justice.
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Post by algor on Apr 26, 2016 21:09:30 GMT
Just a shame that bitch Thatcher is not around to see all this There is a time and place/thread for your anger, this isn't the place. This isn't about you or your daddy!
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Post by Squeekster on Apr 26, 2016 21:13:06 GMT
I must admit down the years i have had opinions about this mainly that i think/thought a lot of the problems were caused by fans turning up without tickets which caused a lot of the problems that day.
Since then though over the years as more and more evidence has come to light my opinion has changed, i also think to me going games home and away unless its my turn to drive it usually involves a few sherberts and a bit of banter but never in my wildest night mare would the out come end like this has.
In reality we as fans who travel to away games know we get treated like second rate shit no matter what so i say lets just let justice take it's course and let the police finally become accountable for their behaviour not just for Hillsbourogh but the rest of whole footballing community in this country!
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 26, 2016 21:29:49 GMT
That's unnecessary and inappropriate. Will you delete the post please? Sorry, but why exactly is it? This is a message board and those two argued long and hard that Liverpool fans were to blame. They werent the only ones. They weren't shy of voicing their opinions then and I'm confident they'll either be completely absent from this thread or try to defend their original positions if they show up. Wonder of wonders you might even get one to publically accept being wrong but don't hold your breath. Meanwhile if it helps people form opinions on their other posts then that's probably a good thing. Because it isn't a rational discussion and the nature of it all becomes disrespectful to a very traumatic situation.
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Post by crapslinger on Apr 26, 2016 21:31:16 GMT
I must admit down the years i have had opinions about this mainly that i think/thought a lot of the problems were caused by fans turning up without tickets which caused a lot of the problems that day. Since then though over the years as more and more evidence has come to light my opinion has changed, i also think to me going games home and away unless its my turn to drive it usually involves a few sherberts and a bit of banter but never in my wildest night mare would the out come end like this has. In reality we as fans who travel to away games know we get treated like second rate shit no matter what so i say lets just let justice take it's course and let the police finally become accountable for their behaviour not just for Hillsbourogh but the rest of whole footballing community in this country! Sadly this will never happen the police are above the law, uniformed thugs feel they a free reign to assault, abuse and treat football supporters like animals, in contrast see how they behave when dealing with minority groups such as the anti military protesters in Wotton Basset, hypocritical tossers.
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Post by salopstick on Apr 26, 2016 21:44:21 GMT
A very emotive subject and an emotive day for those involved and not the day or the thread that I intend to get dragged into arguments over it.
There are many things which will influence peoples views on it, opinions on the police, opinions on the govt of the day, opinions on football fans in general and of that club in particular and of the reason why those hideous policing, pens, fences etc were put in place in the first time. You only have to read this board to find threads about our fans’ cuntish behaviour every couple of weekends or threads reminicising about the “good old days of football and a fight”
my opinion on liverpool fans that day was based on their previous form before that date and since that date. regularly travelling in numbers without tickets and boasting on TV as recently as their last champs league final that they intended to get in by hook or crook with no or fake tickets. Based on that Its a very easy thought process for me not to believe that this was the one game where they were impeccable behaved all with tickets and at no time did some behaviour at least influence descisions made on the ground but not 100% responsible.
That said i welcome and accept the decisions and am happy for those families, happy that the relevant authorities will get whats coming, but also happy that inquiry should ensure lessons learned by said authorities ensure things like this should never happen again.
This full inquiry should have happened years ago, that's the biggest travesty, so the appropriate punishments could be levelled. I suspect many people through age, time, death etc will escape prosecution. As i have stated recently on a few other subjects we now live in the digital age where it is harder and harder to cover up stuff and it will all come out.
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Post by lordb on Apr 26, 2016 21:45:40 GMT
It almost did happen to us which makes the fan blaming more sickening. On the 31st January 1989 Stoke played an FA Cup replay at Barnsley. Thousands of Stoke supporters arrived late due to traffic congestion. Outside the ground a crush developed and people were getting hurt. The initial response was to send a police horse running through the crowd which only exacerbated the chaos. To ease the congestion the police opened one of the huge exit gates which allowed the crowd to enter the ground free of charge. This was the response the same force used two months later at Hillsborough. Had there been more Stoke supporters on the away terrace that night we could have suffered that awful disaster. Same situation, same police force, same reaction. We, like all football supporters, were actually riding our luck, not just on that night, but for so many years. There was very little consideration for the issue of crowd safety over crowd control. It could have been any of us with the loss of life….. and the same scandalous tabloid lies. The only difference from this day to what happened at Hillsborough is that we went through a side turnstile onto a larger terrace otherwise a lot of people could of got hurt on this day. My biggest question out of all this is how are the FA getting off so lightly for allowing the match to take place in the first place in a ground that had no safety certificate? The other difference at Oakwell was that although there was a fence at the front there wasn't a pen. As such those fans already on the away end could move sideways to make room for the surge. At Hillsborough there was no where fir anyone to go.
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Post by Sergeant Muttley on Apr 26, 2016 21:58:02 GMT
I thought The Sun might lead with this tomorrow but obviously not,incredible
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Apr 26, 2016 22:01:29 GMT
Sorry, but why exactly is it? This is a message board and those two argued long and hard that Liverpool fans were to blame. They werent the only ones. They weren't shy of voicing their opinions then and I'm confident they'll either be completely absent from this thread or try to defend their original positions if they show up. Wonder of wonders you might even get one to publically accept being wrong but don't hold your breath. Meanwhile if it helps people form opinions on their other posts then that's probably a good thing. 1) this thread is about the victims and the families of the victims who have campaigned tirelessly to get to this point. It is NOT a thread for slagging off individuals and saying "Ha i told you so" 2) whatever their opinions on hillsborough were, that has no relevance whatsoever on their opinions on completely different matters on completely different threads. To say someone was wrong about 1 matter so therefore they must be wrong about everything is utterly ludicrous, childish and displays a complete lack of common sense, intellect and logic. Try and show at least some decorum and maturity on this kind of thread won't you? Threads like this should not be closed down due to completely neanderthal posts like your original one. Give me strength!!! Every thread on this board turns into one for slagging off individuals and saying I told you so. Sad but true. I assume that's why you ragequit some time ago? I don't remember saying they must be wrong on other matters, just that their dogged insistence that Liverpool fans were to blame even after the HIP came out might be used to form an opinion on the validity of their other thoughts. I'd call that sensible not ludicrous. And Jo, I'd say calling out the stupidity of two posters of many on their insistence on blaming Liverpool fans is much less disrespect tful than carrying on insisting on blaming Liverpool fans which is basically what he's just done with his mealy mouthed justification of all he's said before!
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 26, 2016 22:05:30 GMT
The only difference from this day to what happened at Hillsborough is that we went through a side turnstile onto a larger terrace otherwise a lot of people could of got hurt on this My biggest question out of all this is how are the FA getting off so lightly for allowing the match to take place in the first place in a ground that had no safety certificate? The other difference at Oakwell was that although there was a fence at the front there wasn't a pen. As such those fans already on the away end could move sideways to make room for the surge. At Hillsborough there was no where fir anyone to go. Yes mate the cages were a huge factor.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 26, 2016 22:07:51 GMT
1) this thread is about the victims and the families of the victims who have campaigned tirelessly to get to this point. It is NOT a thread for slagging off individuals and saying "Ha i told you so" 2) whatever their opinions on hillsborough were, that has no relevance whatsoever on their opinions on completely different matters on completely different threads. To say someone was wrong about 1 matter so therefore they must be wrong about everything is utterly ludicrous, childish and displays a complete lack of common sense, intellect and logic. Try and show at least some decorum and maturity on this kind of thread won't you? Threads like this should not be closed down due to completely neanderthal posts like your original one. Give me strength!!! Every thread on this board turns into one for slagging off individuals and saying I told you so. Sad but true. I assume that's why you ragequit some time ago? I don't remember saying they must be wrong on other matters, just that their dogged insistence that Liverpool fans were to blame even after the HIP came out might be used to form an opinion on the validity of their other thoughts. I'd call that sensible not ludicrous. And Jo, I'd say calling out the stupidity of two posters of many on their insistence on blaming Liverpool fans is much less disrespect tful than carrying on insisting on blaming Liverpool fans. I take your point mate. It's just not right at this time though to go looking for people who you disagree with.
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Post by generationex on Apr 26, 2016 22:14:58 GMT
I thought The Sun might lead with this tomorrow but obviously not,incredible What a cancer Murdoch, that vermin Mckenzie, the Sun and the News of the World has been upon this country. Absolutely everything they touch is dripped in shit. Surely the single most destructive entity of the last 40 years. I know we get the media we deserve but fuck me...
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