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Post by partickpotter on Apr 26, 2016 11:33:16 GMT
Andy Burnham's comments today are worth noting.
The disaster is one terrible thing. The subsequent actions over 27 years by the police are disgraceful. There has to be accountability for the actions on the day but also over the thousands of days subsequently.
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Post by GlennA on Apr 26, 2016 11:40:10 GMT
That was a myth about the ticketless supporters as was proven by Lord justice Taylor I not having a go at you cheadle but that has been pointed out on numerous occasions but those who didn't want to hear it still chose to go with it Cheers. I didn't realise it had been pointed out so often, sorry. To be honest most of what I know/thought I knew was from this message board and I've obviously been quite ignorant to the details. I'm still unsure as to how there happened to be such a crush if all fans were with tickets, maybe because they were put into the same area of their allocation rather than spread. I should probably have a proper read about it when I find time. Thanks again, Werrington.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Apr 26, 2016 11:41:11 GMT
That was a myth about the ticketless supporters as was proven by Lord justice Taylor I not having a go at you cheadle but that has been pointed out on numerous occasions but those who didn't want to hear it still chose to go with it Cheers. I didn't realise it had been pointed out so often, sorry. To be honest most of what I know/thought I knew was from this message board and I've obviously been quite ignorant to the details. I'm still unsure as to how there happened to be such a crush if all fans were with tickets, maybe because they were put into the same area of their allocation rather than spread. I should probably have a proper read about it when I find time. Thanks again, Werrington. Cheadle - the layout of the Leppings Lane end (and the decision by Duckinfield to ignore the implications of it) played a huge part in what happened. The pens were literally pens - high fences prevented people moving from one pen to another. If you look at the video of the Leppings Lane end at the time the disaster was unfolding, you will see that there was plenty of room in the pens at either end of the terrace but that the central pens were rammed full to (or beyond) capacity BEFORE the exit gate was opened on Duckinfield's orders. Those central pens were accessed by a tunnel which could/should have been closed off BEFORE the gate was opened to let another 2,000 in. For reasons best known to himself Duckinfield chose not to delay the kick off so that the 2,000 or so fans could be allowed in gradually via the turnstiles AND decided (or forgot?) to close the tunnel to the central pens. So the fans (naturally) headed to the central pens through the tunnel - and the rest is history.
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Post by Davef on Apr 26, 2016 11:50:51 GMT
A special mention for the West Midlands Police Force as well, whose investigation into the role of the South Yorkshire Police at Hillsborough has proven to be as corrupt as anything their fellow force has been guilty of.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 26, 2016 11:53:34 GMT
Cheers. I didn't realise it had been pointed out so often, sorry. To be honest most of what I know/thought I knew was from this message board and I've obviously been quite ignorant to the details. I'm still unsure as to how there happened to be such a crush if all fans were with tickets, maybe because they were put into the same area of their allocation rather than spread. I should probably have a proper read about it when I find time. Thanks again, Werrington. Cheadle - the layout of the Leppings Lane end (and the decision by Duckinfield to ignore the implications of it) played a huge part in what happened. The pens were literally pens - high fences prevented people moving from one pen to another. If you look at the video of the Leppings Lane end at the time the disaster was unfolding, you will see that there was plenty of room in the pens at either end of the terrace but that the central pens were rammed full to (or beyond) capacity BEFORE the exit gate was opened on Duckinfield's orders. Those central pens were accessed by a tunnel which could/should have been closed off BEFORE the gate was opened to let another 2,000 in. For reasons best known to himself Duckinfield chose not to delay the kick off so that the 2,000 or so fans could be allowed in gradually via the turnstiles AND decided (or forgot?) to close the tunnel to the central pens. So the fans (naturally) headed to the central pens through the tunnel - and the rest is history. The pens were a common factor in safety issues. In March 88 we were away to Villa and despite a big terrace were herded into a small pen. People were uncomfortable despite 50% of the terrace cordoned off. This was a common occurrence and indicative of the control over safety aspect being totally unbalanced. After a mini pitch invasion during an FA Cup semi Final Arsenal were instructed to put fences up for safety reasons. SAFETY. To their eternal credit Arsenal refused and weren't allowed to host any FA Cup semi finals again until 1992. Hillsborough disaster was coming.
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Post by cheadlepotter on Apr 26, 2016 11:56:20 GMT
Cheers. I didn't realise it had been pointed out so often, sorry. To be honest most of what I know/thought I knew was from this message board and I've obviously been quite ignorant to the details. I'm still unsure as to how there happened to be such a crush if all fans were with tickets, maybe because they were put into the same area of their allocation rather than spread. I should probably have a proper read about it when I find time. Thanks again, Werrington. Cheadle - the layout of the Leppings Lane end (and the decision by Duckinfield to ignore the implications of it) played a huge part in what happened. The pens were literally pens - high fences prevented people moving from one pen to another. If you look at the video of the Leppings Lane end at the time the disaster was unfolding, you will see that there was plenty of room in the pens at either end of the terrace but that the central pens were rammed full to (or beyond) capacity BEFORE the exit gate was opened on Duckinfield's orders. Those central pens were accessed by a tunnel which could/should have been closed off BEFORE the gate was opened to let another 2,000 in. For reasons best known to himself Duckinfield chose not to delay the kick off so that the 2,000 or so fans could be allowed in gradually via the turnstiles AND decided (or forgot?) to close the tunnel to the central pens. So the fans (naturally) headed to the central pens through the tunnel - and the rest is history. I feel like such an idiot now. Hopefully I can use my age as a defence because I never knew that football supporters were treated so badly. I know hoologanism would have contributed to some of it, but pens?! But even still, having seen the picture kindly shared earlier it shows what an awful job the police made of it. How couldn't they have seen what was unfolding in front of them?! Forgive me for stating the obvious. Blimey.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 26, 2016 11:59:11 GMT
Cheadle - the layout of the Leppings Lane end (and the decision by Duckinfield to ignore the implications of it) played a huge part in what happened. The pens were literally pens - high fences prevented people moving from one pen to another. If you look at the video of the Leppings Lane end at the time the disaster was unfolding, you will see that there was plenty of room in the pens at either end of the terrace but that the central pens were rammed full to (or beyond) capacity BEFORE the exit gate was opened on Duckinfield's orders. Those central pens were accessed by a tunnel which could/should have been closed off BEFORE the gate was opened to let another 2,000 in. For reasons best known to himself Duckinfield chose not to delay the kick off so that the 2,000 or so fans could be allowed in gradually via the turnstiles AND decided (or forgot?) to close the tunnel to the central pens. So the fans (naturally) headed to the central pens through the tunnel - and the rest is history. I feel like such an idiot now. Hopefully I can use my age as a defence because I never knew that football supporters were treated so badly. I know hoologanism would have contributed to some of it, but pens?! But even still, having seen the picture kindly shared earlier it shows what an awful job the police made of it. How couldn't they have seen what was unfolding in front of them?! Forgive me for stating the obvious. Blimey. Pens? They were actually cages. And we had no real right of reply to any abuse we received. "Football supporter? Deserves all he gets you know what they are like"
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Post by greyman on Apr 26, 2016 12:08:37 GMT
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Post by theincontinents on Apr 26, 2016 12:15:46 GMT
Thanks to you all for the positive posts and well done to the Liverpool fans for perusing this so relentlessly. For those who have believed the lies told by the police, the scum newspaper and members of twatchers government my memories of.this era include being tripped up by a copper at Coventry and getting a good kicking from half a dozen of the bastards. I registered an official complaint at Coventry police station but was basically told to piss off as I couldn't supply the number of the officers concerned.
I Could relate numerous other incidents but won't bore you with the details. The attitude of the police back then was summed up by a now good mate of mine who was a member of the Staffordshire police in the 80's who openly told me that he would always volunteer to do Saturday at the stoke games so he and his mates could give the away fans a good thumping.
RIP the 96!
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Post by MrFlirty on Apr 26, 2016 12:18:23 GMT
Finally the right result and yes the police treated fans appallingly. The problems was all the mindless gangs and battles and fights caused by some idiotic fans led to the way the police treated fans. I have friends who were in the forces then and some of the crap they had to put up with at matches and street battles between fans was awful.
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Post by werrington on Apr 26, 2016 12:22:42 GMT
Finally the right result and yes the police treated fans appallingly. The problems was all the mindless gangs and battles and fights caused by some idiotic fans led to the way the police treated fans. I have friends who were in the forces then and some of the crap they had to put up with at matches and street battles between fans was awful. So should the police have tret all Irish with utter contempt due to the IRA or all blacks in south London the same due to the gang warfare culture Sorry that's just a good way of justifying it mate and now is not the time for this discussion
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Post by chuffedstokie on Apr 26, 2016 12:29:42 GMT
Though it cannot undo the harm done, justice has finally been done. As others have said, those on here and elsewhere who spouted their ridiculous bile should be ashamed and stand thoroughly corrected. I also agree with ukcstokie that the conditions that allowed the Hillsborough tragedy to happen were due in part to the contempt shown to the common football fan by politicians and the media. There are very important lessons to be learned to this very day about the dangers and moral repugnance of demonising groups of people, the vast majority of whom are innocent. It's not done yet. Prosecutions of individuals should now follow.
These are purely the results of an inquest. They do not prove any ones guilt or otherwise. Therefore it has no legal basis to allow prosecutions of any sort, be they legal or civil. Pity.
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Post by werrington on Apr 26, 2016 12:32:14 GMT
It's not done yet. Prosecutions of individuals should now follow.
These are purely the results of an inquest. They do not prove any ones guilt or otherwise. Therefore it has no legal basis to allow prosecutions of any sort, be they legal or civil. Pity.
Falsifying evidence/statements is a criminal offence though ?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Apr 26, 2016 12:32:45 GMT
South Yorkshire Police statement: "We unequivocally accept the verdict of unlawful killing and the jury's wider findings. We got the policing of the FA Cup semi-final catastrophically wrong."
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Post by MrFlirty on Apr 26, 2016 12:37:19 GMT
I wasn't trying to create an argument just pointing out to those who were too young that times were different and it wasn't the well behaved family stand nice day out that football is nowadays. I did start of by saying that the decision was correct
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Post by lordb on Apr 26, 2016 12:40:10 GMT
That was a myth about the ticketless supporters as was proven by Lord justice Taylor I not having a go at you cheadle but that has been pointed out on numerous occasions but those who didn't want to hear it still chose to go with it Cheers. I didn't realise it had been pointed out so often, sorry. To be honest most of what I know/thought I knew was from this message board and I've obviously been quite ignorant to the details. I'm still unsure as to how there happened to be such a crush if all fans were with tickets, maybe because they were put into the same area of their allocation rather than spread. I should probably have a proper read about it when I find time. Thanks again, Werrington. This is hugely important Cheadle was under the impression many tickeless fans turned up other fans believe many were pissed & other myths/lies have been propagated as facts as such unless you are paying full attention it's logical to assume the fans were in part to blame Howvever once you realise,as Cheadle has,that he has been lied to & that there was no misbehaviour,there we're not many ticketless &/or drunk fans (Liverpool fnas were very late because the motorways we're buggered,as such they hadn't had chance to go the the pub before nand,as such there we're far less drunk fans than normal)e.t.c once you realise that it was all part of a desperate & comprehensive cover up then regardless of what anyone thinks of Liverpool FC & it's supporters it is surely logical to become very angry indeed. This could have happened to any of us.
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Post by chuffedstokie on Apr 26, 2016 12:42:47 GMT
These are purely the results of an inquest. They do not prove any ones guilt or otherwise. Therefore it has no legal basis to allow prosecutions of any sort, be they legal or civil. Pity.
Falsifying evidence/statements is a criminal offence though ?
Damned right it is. The effort required though to drag those responsible into a court room and gain a successful prosecution might outweigh the net result. However tempting that may sound, and it does, someone with very deep pockets would need to take such a case(s) on. As an ex member of the service it is saddening to think that some were capable of such acts.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 26, 2016 12:48:37 GMT
Cheers. I didn't realise it had been pointed out so often, sorry. To be honest most of what I know/thought I knew was from this message board and I've obviously been quite ignorant to the details. I'm still unsure as to how there happened to be such a crush if all fans were with tickets, maybe because they were put into the same area of their allocation rather than spread. I should probably have a proper read about it when I find time. Thanks again, Werrington. This is hugely important Cheadle was under the impression many tickeless fans turned up other fans believe many were pissed & other myths/lies have been propagated as facts as such unless you are paying full attention it's logical to assume the fans were in part to blame Howvever once you realise,as Cheadle has,that he has been lied to & that there was no misbehaviour,there we're not many ticketless &/or drunk fans (Liverpool fnas were very late because the motorways we're buggered,as such they hadn't had chance to go the the pub before nand,as such there we're far less drunk fans than normal)e.t.c once you realise that it was all part of a desperate & comprehensive cover up then regardless of what anyone thinks of Liverpool FC & it's supporters it is surely logical to become very angry indeed. This could have happened to any of us. It almost did happen to us which makes the fan blaming more sickening. On the 31st January 1989 Stoke played an FA Cup replay at Barnsley. Thousands of Stoke supporters arrived late due to traffic congestion. Outside the ground a crush developed and people were getting hurt. The initial response was to send a police horse running through the crowd which only exacerbated the chaos. To ease the congestion the police opened one of the huge exit gates which allowed the crowd to enter the ground free of charge. This was the response the same force used two months later at Hillsborough. Had there been more Stoke supporters on the away terrace that night we could have suffered that awful disaster. Same situation, same police force, same reaction. We, like all football supporters, were actually riding our luck, not just on that night, but for so many years. There was very little consideration for the issue of crowd safety over crowd control. It could have been any of us with the loss of life….. and the same scandalous tabloid lies.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Apr 26, 2016 12:53:27 GMT
Falsifying evidence/statements is a criminal offence though ?
Damned right it is. The effort required though to drag those responsible into a court room and gain a successful prosecution might outweigh the net result. However tempting that may sound, and it does, someone with very deep pockets would need to take such a case(s) on. As an ex member of the service it is saddening to think that some were capable of such acts.
Sue Hemming, Head of the Special Crime and Counter Terrorism Division at the CPS said: "Following the inquest's determinations the CPS team will continue to work closely with Operation Resolve and the IPCC as in due course, the CPS will formally consider whether any criminal charges should be brought against any individual or corporate body based upon all the available evidence, in accordance with the Code for Crown Prosecutors." "We would ask that everyone is mindful of the continuing investigations and the potential for future criminal proceedings when reporting or publicly commenting on the inquest's conclusions."
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Post by pavel on Apr 26, 2016 12:58:52 GMT
Finally the right result and yes the police treated fans appallingly. The problems was all the mindless gangs and battles and fights caused by some idiotic fans led to the way the police treated fans. I have friends who were in the forces then and some of the crap they had to put up with at matches and street battles between fans was awful. So should the police have tret all Irish with utter contempt due to the IRA or all blacks in south London the same due to the gang warfare culture Sorry that's just a good way of justifying it mate and now is not the time for this discussion It's no justification at all and the way fans were treated (and still are in some cases) is beyond contempt. I remember trying to protect my dad, then a pensioner from a policeman on a horse as he charged down the side of the Victoria Ground, I confronted him, politely, but just got abuse back and threatened with arrest, a bad apple, perhaps but I think the attitude of fans being scum was endemic in police forces those days. I felt so angry and powerless with what had happened but of course it pales into insignificance with what the families of the victims of that day at Hillsborough have had to endure before justice has been done with some going to the graves along with their unlawfully killed sons, daughters, relatives and friends before the truth has at last unequivocally been outed. The many should not ever be judged by a minority of "trouble makers" it leads to generalisations and justifying the unjustifiable, we should be judged as individuals. The same justifications are made for stop and search, an inherently flawed approach to policing, which alienates communities and arrests the innocent and a disproportionate number of people for nothing more than the colour of their skin. Total respect to all who have campaigned for justice for the Hillsborough victims and heartfelt sympathy for those who died and their families and friends. This victory is not just their victory, it's a victory for all decent people and a rare victory against the establishment which on many occasions treated ordinary people with contempt to protect their own interests and power.
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Apr 26, 2016 13:04:18 GMT
Damned right it is. The effort required though to drag those responsible into a court room and gain a successful prosecution might outweigh the net result. However tempting that may sound, and it does, someone with very deep pockets would need to take such a case(s) on. As an ex member of the service it is saddening to think that some were capable of such acts.
Sue Hemming, Head of the Special Crime and Counter Terrorism Division at the CPS said: "Following the inquest's determinations the CPS team will continue to work closely with Operation Resolve and the IPCC as in due course, the CPS will formally consider whether any criminal charges should be brought against any individual or corporate body based upon all the available evidence, in accordance with the Code for Crown Prosecutors." "We would ask that everyone is mindful of the continuing investigations and the potential for future criminal proceedings when reporting or publicly commenting on the inquest's conclusions." good post Paul saw an interview just an hour ago on BBC where the legal expert was saying that as the deaths are now seen as unlawful, rather than it being a case of it all being done and dusted or anyone having to pay for a private prosecution, the CPS now have a legal obligation to look into it and determine if criminal prosecutions are necessary. this matter isn't over...as he said the why's are wherefores are done and whilst the inquest process is now complete, this is also now where the judicial process begins.
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Post by gonk on Apr 26, 2016 13:05:26 GMT
Justice finally then. The next question QUESTION 7: Behaviour of the supporters Posted at 11:14 Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? Yes or no. No. Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles? Yes or no. No. Can the rot spouted on this board finally be put to bed now? I'm 29, so been around for a bit but obviously know a lot less about the disaster than folk older than me. Hundreds of Liverpool fans turned up ticketless that day and made their way into the ground that way. How are the fans not at all to blame? I'm not arguing with the findings, and I can see how the major contributor to the disaster was the police, but I'd just like someone to explain it to me without being abusive. You will find the posters on here of my age saw all what the police and government could get away with at that time ,from football ,strikes and every day life.Just shows how far these people had to go to get justice ,when the majority of people knew the truth.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 26, 2016 13:06:20 GMT
Some have scoffed and said if it happened to anyone else it would all have been forgotten about years ago. If that's the case there can be no greater compliment to the people of Merseyside.
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Post by Davef on Apr 26, 2016 13:10:29 GMT
Those campaigning should be knighted Those wankers on here who have spewed their bile should hang their heads in shame Salopstick, Stafford-Stokie to name just two. Dickheads the pair of them. Let's not go down this road please.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 26, 2016 13:12:17 GMT
Those campaigning should be knighted Those wankers on here who have spewed their bile should hang their heads in shame Salopstick, Stafford-Stokie to name just two. Dickheads the pair of them. That's unnecessary and inappropriate. Will you delete the post please?
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Post by mcf on Apr 26, 2016 13:15:45 GMT
Finally the right result and yes the police treated fans appallingly. The problems was all the mindless gangs and battles and fights caused by some idiotic fans led to the way the police treated fans. I have friends who were in the forces then and some of the crap they had to put up with at matches and street battles between fans was awful. So should the police have tret all Irish with utter contempt due to the IRA or all blacks in south London the same due to the gang warfare culture Sorry that's just a good way of justifying it mate and now is not the time for this discussion Why not? So the rest of you can attempt to smug it out? I'm genuinely pleased for the victims like any normal person should be and I hope the piglice get what's coming to them but to ignore the major part of what took football to this place is wrong.
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Post by maxdecarlo on Apr 26, 2016 13:24:30 GMT
if you really think this was going to be any other outcome you are blinkered- politically it was bound to end up with this decision after all the publicity- who knows where the truth lies but certainly dont accept everything from this inquest -
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Apr 26, 2016 13:26:18 GMT
So should the police have tret all Irish with utter contempt due to the IRA or all blacks in south London the same due to the gang warfare culture Sorry that's just a good way of justifying it mate and now is not the time for this discussion Why not? So the rest of you can attempt to smug it out? I'm genuinely pleased for the victims like any normal person should be and I hope the piglice get what's coming to them but to ignore the major part of what took football to this place is wrong. i think werrington made it quite clear that it is indeed a discussion but this thread simply isn't the place for it. just for one thread can we not just show a little respect for the victims and the outcome of THIS inquest???? feel free to have a discussion as to why the police behaved the way they did at matches and the rights and wrongs of it and who was culpable for that kind of blanket behaviour over all fans, but do it on another thread eh? this is about the Hillsborough inquest (as the thread title quite clearly states). who was to blame for the Police's behaviour at football matches in general wasn't covered within the inquest so that discussion has no place on this thread. simple
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Apr 26, 2016 13:28:54 GMT
if you really think this was going to be any other outcome you are blinkered- politically it was bound to end up with this decision after all the publicity- who knows where the truth lies but certainly dont accept everything from this inquest - you're implying that they gave this verdict after hearing 2 years worth of evidence because of it being good PR????? if you have ANY proof whatsoever i'd state it now or you're going to look incredibly stupid! fucking staggering idiocy and incredibly disrespectful and insulting towards all who have spent nearly 3 decades fighting for this!
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Post by mcf on Apr 26, 2016 13:37:12 GMT
Why not? So the rest of you can attempt to smug it out? I'm genuinely pleased for the victims like any normal person should be and I hope the piglice get what's coming to them but to ignore the major part of what took football to this place is wrong. i think werrington made it quite clear that it is indeed a discussion but this thread simply isn't the place for it. just for one thread can we not just show a little respect for the victims and the outcome of THIS inquest???? feel free to have a discussion as to why the police behaved the way they did at matches and the rights and wrongs of it and who was culpable for that kind of blanket behaviour over all fans, but do it on another thread eh? this is about the Hillsborough inquest (as the thread title quite clearly states). who was to blame for the Police's behaviour at football matches in general wasn't covered within the inquest so that discussion has no place on this thread. simple It's not just the police though is it? will they take the guy that designed the pens to court or the builders that put them there? why were they there in the first place? There is a big clue in this. Police still attend games and we no longer have pens. If you don't think that's important or anyone else for that matter then that's up to them.
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