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Post by chiefdelilah on Feb 2, 2016 13:35:11 GMT
The mama role and the cage changed because we changed manager. Hughes remains the manager, and unless he changes his system to something entirely different, that means the holding role is here to stay, and we still, it seems, currently only have one player who can play there. As already stated about 15 times on this thread it is no longer that black & white. We have 2 deep central mids - they are there to provide protection whilst feeding the ball to the attacking players. They have far more licence to move freely while still performing their defensive duties. It is no coincidence that Affelay still plays deep despite being a natural attacking player. Whelan gets forward more than he ever has but still retains a degree of defensiveness as that is his natural role. the lines are more blurred than they have been in a long time. Imbula will take this to the next level. I think it is a lot more black and white than you're making out. Whelan is still the one who sits,he is the deepest of our midfielders, he is the disciplined one. When he doesn't play we look worryingly open through the middle. Afellay is doing the Nzonzi job, the one who is licensed to carry the ball forward and go past players and get the ball up the pitch.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2016 13:39:19 GMT
..............Jack...............
Johnson...Ryan.....Wooly.....Erik
.........Whelan.....Affelay......
..............Gilbert.............
Shaq.........Bojan...........Arnie
Given that Diouf seems out of favour this is how I see the team.
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Post by reddipotter on Feb 2, 2016 13:42:53 GMT
As already stated about 15 times on this thread it is no longer that black & white. We have 2 deep central mids - they are there to provide protection whilst feeding the ball to the attacking players. They have far more licence to move freely while still performing their defensive duties. It is no coincidence that Affelay still plays deep despite being a natural attacking player. Whelan gets forward more than he ever has but still retains a degree of defensiveness as that is his natural role. the lines are more blurred than they have been in a long time. Imbula will take this to the next level. I think it is a lot more black and white than you're making out. Whelan is still the one who sits,he is the deepest of our midfielders, he is the disciplined one. When he doesn't play we look worryingly open through the middle. Afellay is doing the Nzonzi job, the one who is licensed to carry the ball forward and go past players and get the ball up the pitch. You can count on the fingers of one hand the number of games in which N'Zonzi did that! When he did, it was when two midfielders played in front of Whelan. I think it'll be Affelay and Imbula in front of Whelan in a 4 3 3. At least, I hope so.
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Post by pez75 on Feb 2, 2016 13:45:01 GMT
As already stated about 15 times on this thread it is no longer that black & white. We have 2 deep central mids - they are there to provide protection whilst feeding the ball to the attacking players. They have far more licence to move freely while still performing their defensive duties. It is no coincidence that Affelay still plays deep despite being a natural attacking player. Whelan gets forward more than he ever has but still retains a degree of defensiveness as that is his natural role. the lines are more blurred than they have been in a long time. Imbula will take this to the next level. I think it is a lot more black and white than you're making out. Whelan is still the one who sits,he is the deepest of our midfielders, he is the disciplined one. When he doesn't play we look worryingly open through the middle. Afellay is doing the Nzonzi job, the one who is licensed to carry the ball forward and go past players and get the ball up the pitch. No, Afellay is the one who CAN carry the ball and go past players (like N'Zonzi). Nothing wrong with either of them doing it, its just that Whelan can't. That is the change I am thinking we will make (it will take time, and will probably depend on the opposition). As for Whelan being this 'protector', I think this is a myth built up around his lack of diversity. I cannot remember a game where GW has not been on the pitch and we have been overrun. In fact we look far more open in the games where he constantly gives the ball away a la Leicester.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Feb 2, 2016 13:50:47 GMT
I think it is a lot more black and white than you're making out. Whelan is still the one who sits,he is the deepest of our midfielders, he is the disciplined one. When he doesn't play we look worryingly open through the middle. Afellay is doing the Nzonzi job, the one who is licensed to carry the ball forward and go past players and get the ball up the pitch. No, Afellay is the one who CAN carry the ball and go past players (like N'Zonzi). Nothing wrong with either of them doing it, its just that Whelan can't. That is the change I am thinking we will make (it will take time, and will probably depend on the opposition). As for Whelan being this 'protector', I think this is a myth built up around his lack of diversity. I cannot remember a game where GW has not been on the pitch and we have been overrun. In fact we look far more open in the games where he constantly gives the ball away a la Leicester. Whelan didn't constantly give it away against Leicester. He completed more of his passes than most players on the park. Last season we failed to win 75% of the games Whelan didn't start. We dropped him for 'winnable' home games against teams like Sunderland and Palace and then didn't win them. We can upgrade on him but whoever we sign to do that will still have to basically sit in front of the back four and pass it sideways a lot.
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Post by redstriper on Feb 2, 2016 13:51:53 GMT
Anyone who thinks Affelay should be the one to make way hasn't been paying attention. Best player on the pitch (not just our side) for most games I've seen in 2016.
I have to admit I'd rather we had bought a pacey wide man on the face of it - but I trust hughesy so it's wait and see time.
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Post by slicko on Feb 2, 2016 13:55:38 GMT
Imbula will only make a cameo appearance tonight on 80 minutes.
This is a very important match.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Feb 2, 2016 13:57:00 GMT
Imbula will only make a cameo appearance tonight on 80 minutes. This is a very important match. He can't play tonight can he?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2016 13:57:50 GMT
Imbula will only make a cameo appearance tonight on 80 minutes. This is a very important match.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2016 13:58:20 GMT
Imbula will only make a cameo appearance tonight on 80 minutes. This is a very important match. He can't play tonight can he? No he cant.
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Post by pez75 on Feb 2, 2016 13:59:21 GMT
No, Afellay is the one who CAN carry the ball and go past players (like N'Zonzi). Nothing wrong with either of them doing it, its just that Whelan can't. That is the change I am thinking we will make (it will take time, and will probably depend on the opposition). As for Whelan being this 'protector', I think this is a myth built up around his lack of diversity. I cannot remember a game where GW has not been on the pitch and we have been overrun. In fact we look far more open in the games where he constantly gives the ball away a la Leicester. Whelan didn't constantly give it away against Leicester. He completed more of his passes than most players on the park. Last season we failed to win 75% of the games Whelan didn't start. We dropped him for 'winnable' home games against teams like Sunderland and Palace and then didn't win them. We can upgrade on him but whoever we sign to do that will still have to basically sit in front of the back four and pass it sideways a lot. I have eyes - he got caught on the ball numerous times, not sure how that adds up in your stats, but it happened. He has played in some of our 'winnable' games this season that we have still lost. I dont disagree, both centre mids will, that will always be part of their role.
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Post by slicko on Feb 2, 2016 14:00:35 GMT
Imbula will only make a cameo appearance tonight on 80 minutes. This is a very important match. He can't play tonight can he? I dunno the rules and will happily get me coat, but going on Hughes past introductions and that the medical staff won't have conditioned or fully assessed him.
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Post by pez75 on Feb 2, 2016 14:02:25 GMT
He can't play tonight can he? I dunno the , but going on Hughes past introductions and that the medical staff won't have conditioned or fully assessed him. He is not eligible mate - we did not sign him before Midday.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 2, 2016 14:19:58 GMT
Ahh, 'the Whelan role', see also 'the Mama role', refer also to 'the cage'. Things have changed (unlike some supporters mindsets), and slowly but surely our team is being upgraded, and subsequently these phrases are no longer relevant. Time to move on. The mama role and the cage changed because we changed manager. Hughes remains the manager, and unless he changes his system to something entirely different, that means the holding role is here to stay, and we still, it seems, currently only have one player who can play there. How important was this rule in his previous teams at Blackburn, man city, Fulham, even Wales? It seems important now but we are undoubtedly changing. The mama role is but a distant memory, the cage has been smashed open. Maybe a player who can only offer holding qualities will also disappear in due course?
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Post by Kjones9 on Feb 2, 2016 14:31:53 GMT
Which player could we possibly buy to replace Whelan when he retires then? I don't think that there's a exact replacement out there.
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 2, 2016 14:33:25 GMT
With what's available right now I'd go 433 Butland Johnson Ryan Wolly Pieters -------------Whelan-------------- -----Affaley----Imbula--------- Shaq-----Bojan------ Arnie But I'm pretty sure we will be gradually see less of 'The Whelan Role' in the next few seasons This is exactly how I see the preferred starting 11. Exciting isn't it!
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Post by PotterLog on Feb 2, 2016 15:16:22 GMT
Imbu will be eased in, but when he's fit/ready/comfortable/in form, I think we'll play false nine some games and we'll rotate Affy and Boje at #10 in the ones that we don't. Assuming they're both fit, that would give both Afellay and Boje pitch time for about 75% of our games, which I think they'd be alright with. And then if Imbula gets injured or suspended Afellay drops back.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Feb 2, 2016 15:19:24 GMT
Whelan still gets forward though. So did Matic last season for Chelsea when he was far and away the best midfielder in the country. The idea that you have to have a midfielder who just sits in front of the back four and does fuck all else is bollocks in my opinion. As long as you've got two central midfielders with a brain who can get about the pitch and cover each other then it's simply not necessary. I'm with Pez here and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Whelan gets less game time once Imbula is up to speed. I'm with you, Sid. I don't like all this DM bollocks, a midfielder should be able to attack and defend. I understand that a player may be better at one aspect of the game, but he should be at least capable of doing both.
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Post by bogus on Feb 2, 2016 15:22:17 GMT
As I said in another thread last night, a French journo, who watched him a lot, said on 5 Live that his best form for Marseille was playing as the deep lying midfielder in Bielsa's team. But he als said he could look Vieira like in his abilities. Don't know how we'll use him, but I'm certainly looking forward to watching it
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Post by jarhead on Feb 2, 2016 15:47:02 GMT
He will Start v Everton but to ease him in and the surroundings I think he will partner Whelan because he's vice captain and Bojan to the bench as we need a striker up top v Everton maybe Jon or Joselu.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Feb 2, 2016 15:49:43 GMT
So did Matic last season for Chelsea when he was far and away the best midfielder in the country. The idea that you have to have a midfielder who just sits in front of the back four and does fuck all else is bollocks in my opinion. As long as you've got two central midfielders with a brain who can get about the pitch and cover each other then it's simply not necessary. I'm with Pez here and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Whelan gets less game time once Imbula is up to speed. I'm with you, Sid. I don't like all this DM bollocks, a midfielder should be able to attack and defend. I understand that a player may be better at one aspect of the game, but he should be at least capable of doing both. Tell that to Claude Makelele.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Feb 2, 2016 15:51:00 GMT
The mama role and the cage changed because we changed manager. Hughes remains the manager, and unless he changes his system to something entirely different, that means the holding role is here to stay, and we still, it seems, currently only have one player who can play there. How important was this rule in his previous teams at Blackburn, man city, Fulham, even Wales? It seems important now but we are undoubtedly changing. The mama role is but a distant memory, the cage has been smashed open. Maybe a player who can only offer holding qualities will also disappear in due course? He played 4-4-2 with Blackburn and Fulham. At Citeh he signed Kompany to play that role in his 4-2-3-1 and then De Jong, so pretty important. Don't know about Wales.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Feb 2, 2016 15:51:34 GMT
I think it is a lot more black and white than you're making out. Whelan is still the one who sits,he is the deepest of our midfielders, he is the disciplined one. When he doesn't play we look worryingly open through the middle. Afellay is doing the Nzonzi job, the one who is licensed to carry the ball forward and go past players and get the ball up the pitch. You can count on the fingers of one hand the number of games in which N'Zonzi did that! When he did, it was when two midfielders played in front of Whelan. I think it'll be Affelay and Imbula in front of Whelan in a 4 3 3. At least, I hope so. He did it all the time, it was a lazy myth that he didn't.
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Post by harryburrows on Feb 2, 2016 15:58:17 GMT
Nzonzi was the catalyst for bringing the best out of Bojan . I'm hoping Gianelli will form the same sort of understanding with the little maestro
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Feb 2, 2016 15:59:27 GMT
So did Matic last season for Chelsea when he was far and away the best midfielder in the country. The idea that you have to have a midfielder who just sits in front of the back four and does fuck all else is bollocks in my opinion. As long as you've got two central midfielders with a brain who can get about the pitch and cover each other then it's simply not necessary. I'm with Pez here and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Whelan gets less game time once Imbula is up to speed. I'm with you, Sid. I don't like all this DM bollocks, a midfielder should be able to attack and defend. I understand that a player may be better at one aspect of the game, but he should be at least capable of doing both. While acknowledging the 'horses for courses' approach and the fact that we more often than not finish games in a completely different shape than we start I too think Whelan {and a 'Whelan' role} will be a diminishing phenomena. Especially given the Euro's and Whelan's age. He's a trojan but with no recouperation this summer he's likely to be knackered next season. I was convinced Hughes was moving towards two dynamic midfielders, who don't need to 'protect' the centrebacks who can play the ball out. Like on saturday Hughes was encouraging Wolfman and Wilson to adopt a higher line and almost become the 'de facto' holding mids., he expects more from the defenders, thereby freeing the midfield to maximize the attacking aspects. Whilst the set-up was driven by fatigue/injury hopefully it was an insight into a strategy to unlock the more resolute teams. Despite losing {I blame Ireland}, it worked pretty well and we didn't miss Whelan in general play {other than for their goal.} There were other reasons why we didn't beat Palace. Hughes has tried all kinds of of alternatives to Whelan, initially there was a time where he played 'anyone but... Glenn.' I thought it'd be MVG and Afellay as the go to pairing, but that's obv. all changed, but the principle remains. I need to see more from Imbula before pigeonholing him, but a midfield of: ---Afellay Imbula--- -------Bojan------ ... is mouthwatering. So, in games where it's more important to push on Whelan will be rested, if it's defence minded then it should be Bojan/Afellay making way. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.
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Post by Onneravineet on Feb 2, 2016 16:01:34 GMT
For me no one drops out of the starting eleven initially. Slowly Imbula will be integrated into the starting line up to the extent that next season he is the starter in the centre with Afellay. Glenn will assume the back up and squad player role for the remainder of his time with us after being the excellent servant that he has been.
----------Jack----------
Glenn----Ryan----Muni----Erik
-----Afellay---Imbula-----
Shaq------Bojan-----Arnie
----------Joselu----------
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Post by Kjones9 on Feb 2, 2016 16:06:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2016 16:07:14 GMT
I think he'll play in place of Glenn at home and in place of Affelay away.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2016 16:13:04 GMT
With what's available right now I'd go 433 Butland Johnson Ryan Wolly Pieters -------------Whelan-------------- -----Affaley----Imbula--------- Shaq-----Bojan------ Arnie But I'm pretty sure we will be gradually see less of 'The Whelan Role' in the next few seasons This is exactly how I see the preferred starting 11. Exciting isn't it! Looks good although I expect Imbula and Affaley to play on the other sides tbh. I wouldn't rule out Muniesa either.
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Post by thepremierbanksy on Feb 2, 2016 16:17:26 GMT
Regarding 'the Whelan role' - if you're going to have your full backs attacking, which you need to provide width when you have two inverted wingers, the one of the central midfielders has got to be disciplined and stay back otherwise you are completely and utterly exposed to counters.
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