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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2016 11:43:00 GMT
You can't be a player who is disciplined, who sits in in front of the defence protecting the back four AND be tasked with driving forward carrying the ball from defence to attack, it's a physical impossibility. The main suggestion of why he was a flop at Porto, was because they tried to make him play the 'Whelan' role, when his natural game was not to actually sit but to play as a box to box midfielder, like he did at Marseille. Whelan still gets forward though. So did Matic last season for Chelsea when he was far and away the best midfielder in the country. The idea that you have to have a midfielder who just sits in front of the back four and does fuck all else is bollocks in my opinion. As long as you've got two central midfielders with a brain who can get about the pitch and cover each other then it's simply not necessary. I'm with Pez here and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Whelan gets less game time once Imbula is up to speed.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 2, 2016 11:47:08 GMT
He crosses the half way line at times but the majority of his game is based on protecting our defence, rather than driving forward with the ball, box to box. Imbula to me just looks like a boss of a midfielder, has the ability to attack/defend and turn the ball over quickly, I think Glenn will benefit from playing next to him and visa versa. Agree entirely mate. They have the potential to make an excellent pairing.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 2, 2016 11:49:06 GMT
Why try to piss on my bonfire? Why can't you just let me revel in a moment of inspiration that has me salivating at the prospect of what my team could actually do? In all seriousness, re Affelay I think we may be judging him on his early season showings. For 45 minutes on the right wing at West Ham, I thought he was sublime and he's gone on several lung busting runs down the wing, the most recent of which was in extra time at Anfield which highlights the player he perhaps once was. He's a different player than the one we saw at the start of the season. Fitter, stronger, faster and full of confidence. Affelay is so good, I honestly think he could play anywhere on the pitch. I'm basing my thoughts on not having seen Imbula play but for home games against the type of opposition we've struggled against, I suspect Whelan may well be the fall guy at times. I'm seriously hoping Imbula is the midfield player I dream of. Nothing pisses me of more in modern football (coloured boots aside) than this defensive/attacking midfielder bollocks. A midfield player, in the true sense of the word, contributes effectively in every area of the pitch. I compared him to Viera in the matchday threat v Porto in pre-season. Now there, is a proper midfield player. A man capable of doing everything and doing everything well. I hope Imbula is that man for us! I think it's best not to try and find a way to fit them all into the same team. If we'd signed either Berahino or Batshuayi yesterday then it would be impossible to crow bar them all in anyway as the No. 9 position would be nailed on and it would be a straight choice of Afellay or Bojan and Afellay or Imbula. I'm not sure you're right on that and think it is a bit to much a "black or white" view really. I wouldn't mind betting that if we'd have got either of the centre forwards you mention, in the bulk of games we play between now and the end of the season, that Whelan would have been the fall guy.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Feb 2, 2016 11:49:08 GMT
I'm hoping he's cut from the same cloth as that lad Kante at Leicester. Most underated player in the league in my opinion.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 2, 2016 11:53:46 GMT
I think it's best not to try and find a way to fit them all into the same team. If we'd signed either Berahino or Batshuayi yesterday then it would be impossible to crow bar them all in anyway as the No. 9 position would be nailed on and it would be a straight choice of Afellay or Bojan and Afellay or Imbula. I'm not sure you're right on that and think it is a bit to much a "black or white" view really. I wouldn't mind betting that if we'd have got either of the centre forwards you mention, in the bulk of games we play between now and the end of the season, that Whelan would have been the fall guy. As I said earlier Dave, that would depend on whether Afellay can play the 'Whelan' role, we don't know yet if he can or not. I don't think Hughes is likely to give up on his defensive centre mid in his system any time soon, save maybe when we're at home against opposition that come to shut up shop. Time will tell.
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Post by Robo10 on Feb 2, 2016 11:55:15 GMT
That front 4 at its best is interchangeable (as it was against Chelsea, Man City and Man Utd)
One minute Arnie is no9, then its Bojan as Arnie drifts left or right Shaq can drift from RW to no10 role Affellay is capable as no10 or wide
Total football, which when ticking is sublime, when we are marked out of the game vs a deeper sitting team not so
Hopefully the base (Whelan/Cameron/Imbula - 2 from 3) and defence is solid enough and now has some creativity as well
Its no coincidence that our best form this season was against teams attacking us, Geoff Cam was fit and playing well, and it allowed the attacking unit to rip teams apart
The Liverpool semi first leg was also no coincidence that they sat deep, an unfit GC was sent up top to win headers and ball and made his injury worse, Affellay was too deep, Whelo kept giving the ball away as no options as the holy trinity was double marked, and Wolly/Shawx had so much time on the ball at the back they didnt really know what to do bar pass to each other sideways!
You only have to look at our best games this season (the three big ones at home, Everton away, you could argue Swansea away and possibly West Ham) to see when it works well
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 2, 2016 11:58:04 GMT
Why do people keep suggesting that because he clearly has more about him than Whelan - he cant possibly replace him??? It is what we have been crying out for - a DM with a bit more in his locker than just disrupting the oppositions play. Its called progression. Yes GW does an admirable job most weeks but he is a liability when he has the ball under pressure. He loses the ball more than he wins it if we are under the cosh. Just re-run the Leicester game or 1st half v Liverpool if you need reminding, and that is just recently. Glen has been tremendous for us and I hope he will continue to do so, but if we really want to compete with the big boys then we have to start upgrading - I am convinced that this is what Hughes is thinking. The roles are totally different though aren't they? The 'Whelan' role requires a player who is extremely disciplined, who is prepared to sit in front of the defence, protecting the centre backs, methodically breaking down the opposition play. Imbula likes to drive forward, dribbling past players, quickly moving the ball from defence to attack. Yes the lad knows how to tackle but to ask him to sit in front of the defence would hamstring him of some of his best qualities. The reason Cameron can't play the Whelan role is because he simply doesn't have the discipline to hold his position, as he likes to drive forward with the ball. We don't know yet if Afellay can do Whelan's job, if he can't, then we still have just the one player at the club who can and that's - Glenn Whelan. So to summarise: the best person to play the Whelan role is Whelan.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 2, 2016 12:10:35 GMT
I'm not sure you're right on that and think it is a bit to much a "black or white" view really. I wouldn't mind betting that if we'd have got either of the centre forwards you mention, in the bulk of games we play between now and the end of the season, that Whelan would have been the fall guy. As I said earlier Dave, that would depend on whether Afellay can play the 'Whelan' role, we don't know yet if he can or not. I don't think Hughes is likely to give up on his defensive centre mid in his system any time soon, save maybe when we're at home against opposition that come to shut up shop. Time will tell. When has such a role/player been so important to Hughes previous teams? Did he have such a player in his Blackburn, Man City or Fulham teams? Danny Murphy maybe but at his best, he had much more to his game than Whelan does. He played in great sides that had the likes of Bryan Robson and Roy Keane as the midfield lynchpin of the team. I'm really not convinced that he's as much a believer in this "holding midfielder" as you are making out. Alas, we didn't sign the centre forward we could have done with, or the wide man we need, so time will be tell us the story.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 2, 2016 12:15:07 GMT
As I said earlier Dave, that would depend on whether Afellay can play the 'Whelan' role, we don't know yet if he can or not. I don't think Hughes is likely to give up on his defensive centre mid in his system any time soon, save maybe when we're at home against opposition that come to shut up shop. Time will tell. When has such a role/player been so important to Hughes previous teams? Did he have such a player in his Blackburn, Man City or Fulham teams? Danny Murphy maybe but at his best, he had much more to his game than Whelan does. He played in great sides that had the likes of Bryan Robson and Roy Keane as the midfield lynchpin of the team. I'm really not convinced that he's as much a believer in this "holding midfielder" as you are making out. Alas, we didn't sign the centre forward we could have done with, or the wide man we need, so time will be tell us the story. We'll just have to wait and see Dave.
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Post by StokieAsh13 on Feb 2, 2016 12:16:41 GMT
As I said earlier Dave, that would depend on whether Afellay can play the 'Whelan' role, we don't know yet if he can or not. I don't think Hughes is likely to give up on his defensive centre mid in his system any time soon, save maybe when we're at home against opposition that come to shut up shop. Time will tell. When has such a role/player been so important to Hughes previous teams? Did he have such a player in his Blackburn, Man City or Fulham teams? Danny Murphy maybe but at his best, he had much more to his game than Whelan does. He played in great sides that had the likes of Bryan Robson and Roy Keane as the midfield lynchpin of the team. I'm really not convinced that he's as much a believer in this "holding midfielder" as you are making out. Alas, we didn't sign the centre forward we could have done with, or the wide man we need, so time will be tell us the story. Was it really as important then as it now? The game changes mate. I think having a solid protector Infront of the back 4 is imperative especially as our FB's like to bomb forward.
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Post by silverdollar on Feb 2, 2016 12:18:44 GMT
"Starting eleven"? If you mean what Hughes considers his strongest team out of the squad he has I'm sure he does sometimes consider this but we have a squad of players and in the modern game Hughes needs all his players to select a "starting eleven" best equipped for the team we are playing. This was highlighted by the recent games against Liverpool. He also has to consider the number of games played and the fitness of the players. The fact that at present Hughes has a great squad to select from is brilliant!
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Post by pez75 on Feb 2, 2016 12:24:40 GMT
He crosses the half way line at times but the majority of his game is based on protecting our defence, rather than driving forward with the ball, box to box. The past couple of seasons he's done it more though. Like the write up I posted yesterday stated, he does sit and primarily takes his defensive duties seriously. I just don't think it's as black and white as most are making out. Exactly. IMO Imbula is the next level of progression. Look at Matic @ Chelsea, he is there to do the defensive role, but he often gets forward and helps to link up in the opposition half. Whelan has done this more and more as we have evolved, but quite frankly he is not very good at it.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Feb 2, 2016 12:32:26 GMT
When we've dicked about moving Arnie centrally in the last few weeks he's faded out of the game.
Left wing please.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Feb 2, 2016 12:38:03 GMT
I personally see a midfield trio of Imbula, Affelay and Whelan in the holding role.
In front of them Hughes will mix it up a bit and I expect to see a mixture of the false 9 with Bojan, or a target man in Joselu, Walters or Crouch dependant upon the opposition.
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Post by potterpaul on Feb 2, 2016 12:55:50 GMT
With what's available right now I'd go 433
Butland Johnson Ryan Wolly Pieters -------------Whelan-------------- -----Affaley----Imbula--------- Shaq-----Bojan------ Arnie
But I'm pretty sure we will be gradually see less of 'The Whelan Role' in the next few seasons
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 2, 2016 12:57:59 GMT
When has such a role/player been so important to Hughes previous teams? Did he have such a player in his Blackburn, Man City or Fulham teams? Danny Murphy maybe but at his best, he had much more to his game than Whelan does. He played in great sides that had the likes of Bryan Robson and Roy Keane as the midfield lynchpin of the team. I'm really not convinced that he's as much a believer in this "holding midfielder" as you are making out. Alas, we didn't sign the centre forward we could have done with, or the wide man we need, so time will be tell us the story. We'll just have to wait and see Dave. Indeed we will. Exciting isn't it? A damn site better than knowing exactly who will be playing in what formation and with what sole intention, that's for sure.
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Post by reddipotter on Feb 2, 2016 12:59:52 GMT
I personally see a midfield trio of Imbula, Affelay and Whelan in the holding role. In front of them Hughes will mix it up a bit and I expect to see a mixture of the false 9 with Bojan, or a target man in Joselu, Walters or Crouch dependant upon the opposition. This is the midfield formation that worked so well at the end of last season with Charlie and N'Zonzi in front of Whelan.
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Post by slother on Feb 2, 2016 13:00:48 GMT
With Imbula alongside Whelan in midfield and Afellay in front of them, hopefully Bojan up top doesn't need to be a "false" 9 coming deep to pick up the ball. He'll turn into Aguero, basically.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 2, 2016 13:01:57 GMT
When has such a role/player been so important to Hughes previous teams? Did he have such a player in his Blackburn, Man City or Fulham teams? Danny Murphy maybe but at his best, he had much more to his game than Whelan does. He played in great sides that had the likes of Bryan Robson and Roy Keane as the midfield lynchpin of the team. I'm really not convinced that he's as much a believer in this "holding midfielder" as you are making out. Alas, we didn't sign the centre forward we could have done with, or the wide man we need, so time will be tell us the story. Was it really as important then as it now? The game changes mate. I think having a solid protector Infront of the back 4 is imperative especially as our FB's like to bomb forward. I don't believe the game has changed that much no. I think the quality is poorer now, throughout world football, than its ever been. There are obviously some notable exceptions but the defensive/attacking midfield scenario is borne out of certain players only being capable of doing one thing rather than being the complete package. Frank Lampard being the obvious example. He was a cheat, not in a diving sense but in the old school sense, in that he only ever played forward. He was more of a centre forward than a midfield player and when he had to be a midfield player, for England, he was pretty damn crap. Midfield players, as I grew up, were key for any team. The engine of the team, very often the captain, and more often than not, the best player in the team. It's a fashion rather than a necessity to have these players that are only in the team for one thing. A true midfield player should contribute effectively in all areas of the pitch. Hopefully Imbula will be able to do just that. If he can't, I will probably be disappointed!
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Post by chiefdelilah on Feb 2, 2016 13:06:16 GMT
Was it really as important then as it now? The game changes mate. I think having a solid protector Infront of the back 4 is imperative especially as our FB's like to bomb forward. I don't believe the game has changed that much no. I think the quality is poorer now, throughout world football, than its ever been. There are obviously some notable exceptions but the defensive/attacking midfield scenario is borne out of certain players only being capable of doing one thing rather than being the complete package. Midfield players, as I grew up, were key for any team. The engine of the team, very often the captain, and more often than not, the best player in the team. It's a fashion rather than a necessity to have these players that are only in the team for one thing. A true midfield player should contribute effectively in all areas of the pitch. Hopefully Imbula will be able to do just that. If he can't, I will probably be disappointed! Given the intensity of the game these days and the fact that we play more games than ever is that kind of all action, 'do everything' midfielder still feasible though Dave? Who has there been other than Keane in the last 10-15 years who could do that successfully? Even Vieira needed Gilberto behind him to really hit his best form.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 2, 2016 13:11:51 GMT
I don't believe the game has changed that much no. I think the quality is poorer now, throughout world football, than its ever been. There are obviously some notable exceptions but the defensive/attacking midfield scenario is borne out of certain players only being capable of doing one thing rather than being the complete package. Midfield players, as I grew up, were key for any team. The engine of the team, very often the captain, and more often than not, the best player in the team. It's a fashion rather than a necessity to have these players that are only in the team for one thing. A true midfield player should contribute effectively in all areas of the pitch. Hopefully Imbula will be able to do just that. If he can't, I will probably be disappointed! Given the intensity of the game these days and the fact that we play more games than ever is that kind of all action, 'do everything' midfielder still feasible though Dave? Who has there been other than Keane in the last 10-15 years who could do that successfully? Even Vieira needed Gilberto behind him to really hit his best form. At stoke, surely we play fewer games than ever before. It takes an eternity for games to come round and midweek fixtures, ordinarily, are as rare as rocking horse shit. Hopefully that will change for us in the next 12 months or so. If the game has changed forever, then sign two proper midfielders ;-)
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Post by chiefdelilah on Feb 2, 2016 13:16:15 GMT
Given the intensity of the game these days and the fact that we play more games than ever is that kind of all action, 'do everything' midfielder still feasible though Dave? Who has there been other than Keane in the last 10-15 years who could do that successfully? Even Vieira needed Gilberto behind him to really hit his best form. At stoke, surely we play fewer games than ever before. It takes an eternity for games to come round and midweek fixtures, ordinarily, are as rare as rocking horse shit. Hopefully that will change for us in the next 12 months or so. Fair point Dave. I don't think that type of midfielder has existed for a fair old while though really, if you have one who's charging through the pack a lot you need someone to keep the back door shut as well. Leicester seem to have the balance right with Drinkwater and Kante but I think most teams look better with a proper holding midfielder who sits and does the grim or boring stuff. Someone who 'gets it and gives it to someone who can play' to paraphrase Brian Clough.
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Post by thestatusquo on Feb 2, 2016 13:16:11 GMT
Afellay is far more effective in the middle than on the wing Dave and Arnie is far from being a natural finisher, indeed at times his shooting is simply dreadful. It's not something that is going to change either at this stage in his career. He's fine at finding space and ghosting in from the flank to chip in with some goals but he wouldn't cope well with being permanently marked as a player who is leading the line. Why try to piss on my bonfire? Why can't you just let me revel in a moment of inspiration that has me salivating at the prospect of what my team could actually do? In all seriousness, re Affelay I think we may be judging him on his early season showings. For 45 minutes on the right wing at West Ham, I thought he was sublime and he's gone on several lung busting runs down the wing, the most recent of which was in extra time at Anfield which highlights the player he perhaps once was. He's a different player than the one we saw at the start of the season. Fitter, stronger, faster and full of confidence. Affelay is so good, I honestly think he could play anywhere on the pitch. I'm basing my thoughts on not having seen Imbula play but for home games against the type of opposition we've struggled against, I suspect Whelan may well be the fall guy at times. I'm seriously hoping Imbula is the midfield player I dream of. Nothing pisses me of more in modern football (coloured boots aside) than this defensive/attacking midfielder bollocks. A midfield player, in the true sense of the word, contributes effectively in every area of the pitch. I compared him to Viera in the matchday threat v Porto in pre-season. Now there, is a proper midfield player. A man capable of doing everything and doing everything well. I hope Imbula is that man for us! I do wonder if Affelay was bought in to be the backup wide men for Arnie and Shak but since he got switched to the middle he's really done well and given Hughes a bit of a head ache !!
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Post by pez75 on Feb 2, 2016 13:16:27 GMT
I'm hoping he's cut from the same cloth as that lad Kante at Leicester. Most underated player in the league in my opinion. Agree, but underrated?? Everyone keeps banging on about him?
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Post by pez75 on Feb 2, 2016 13:17:20 GMT
With Imbula alongside Whelan in midfield and Afellay in front of them, hopefully Bojan up top doesn't need to be a "false" 9 coming deep to pick up the ball. He'll turn into Aguero, basically. Are you joking?
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Post by pez75 on Feb 2, 2016 13:21:36 GMT
The roles are totally different though aren't they? The 'Whelan' role requires a player who is extremely disciplined, who is prepared to sit in front of the defence, protecting the centre backs, methodically breaking down the opposition play. Imbula likes to drive forward, dribbling past players, quickly moving the ball from defence to attack. Yes the lad knows how to tackle but to ask him to sit in front of the defence would hamstring him of some of his best qualities. The reason Cameron can't play the Whelan role is because he simply doesn't have the discipline to hold his position, as he likes to drive forward with the ball. We don't know yet if Afellay can do Whelan's job, if he can't, then we still have just the one player at the club who can and that's - Glenn Whelan. So to summarise: the best person to play the Whelan role is Whelan. Ahh, 'the Whelan role', see also 'the Mama role', refer also to 'the cage'. Things have changed (unlike some supporters mindsets), and slowly but surely our team is being upgraded, and subsequently these phrases are no longer relevant. Time to move on.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Feb 2, 2016 13:25:59 GMT
So to summarise: the best person to play the Whelan role is Whelan. Ahh, 'the Whelan role', see also 'the Mama role', refer also to 'the cage'. Things have changed (unlike some supporters mindsets), and slowly but surely our team is being upgraded, and subsequently these phrases are no longer relevant. Time to move on. The mama role and the cage changed because we changed manager. Hughes remains the manager, and unless he changes his system to something entirely different, that means the holding role is here to stay, and we still, it seems, currently only have one player who can play there.
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Post by chiswickpotter on Feb 2, 2016 13:26:08 GMT
The roles are totally different though aren't they? The 'Whelan' role requires a player who is extremely disciplined, who is prepared to sit in front of the defence, protecting the centre backs, methodically breaking down the opposition play. Imbula likes to drive forward, dribbling past players, quickly moving the ball from defence to attack. Yes the lad knows how to tackle but to ask him to sit in front of the defence would hamstring him of some of his best qualities. The reason Cameron can't play the Whelan role is because he simply doesn't have the discipline to hold his position, as he likes to drive forward with the ball. We don't know yet if Afellay can do Whelan's job, if he can't, then we still have just the one player at the club who can and that's - Glenn Whelan. Thats my point - maybe hughes wants someone to do that role - and more! MH has pulled GW off at half-time and just after a few times already this season which shows he is prepared to try something different, a bit more dynamic - now he has a player who can protect, hold up the ball, and initiate forward play. Affelay has shone in his new role, so I cannot see MH moving him elsewhere. I reckon that eventually it will be GW getting splinters in his arse. Agreed the way Whelan has defined the role is very limited, almost no link up with the rest of the midfield, no passing and no running with the ball. Against better sides we struggle to get close to their midfield which is why the False 9 wa sused, to giv eus extra presence in there but hopefully Imbula can bring more energy. If Imbula has more attributes and is a better athlete, no reason it can't be amore flexible role with Affelay lined up to drop in as needed. Hughes sees Imbula as a DM according to his quotes so over time he appears to be destined to replace Whelan
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Post by liamo on Feb 2, 2016 13:29:33 GMT
I would definitely like to play false no.9 again now we have someone that will (hopefully) break up play and drive forward, it's weird but out of the whole team i feel like the natural striker position is one we can afford to sacrifice, Afellay doesn't deserve to be dropped, Whelan doesn't deserve to be dropped and Bojan is the creative force even if he isn't quite on the ball lately
Imbula driving forward will commit players and create space and if it doesn't work we can simply sub Bojan for Joselu/Diouf/Walters and have a completely different formation
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Post by pez75 on Feb 2, 2016 13:32:18 GMT
Ahh, 'the Whelan role', see also 'the Mama role', refer also to 'the cage'. Things have changed (unlike some supporters mindsets), and slowly but surely our team is being upgraded, and subsequently these phrases are no longer relevant. Time to move on. The mama role and the cage changed because we changed manager. Hughes remains the manager, and unless he changes his system to something entirely different, that means the holding role is here to stay, and we still, it seems, currently only have one player who can play there. As already stated about 15 times on this thread it is no longer that black & white. We have 2 deep central mids - they are there to provide protection whilst feeding the ball to the attacking players. They have far more licence to move freely while still performing their defensive duties. It is no coincidence that Affelay still plays deep despite being a natural attacking player. Whelan gets forward more than he ever has but still retains a degree of defensiveness as that is his natural role. the lines are more blurred than they have been in a long time. Imbula will take this to the next level.
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