Our ideal formation?

[trickydicky73]

Has it changed from last season with the comings and goings? Are we still suited to 4-2-3-1 or is there a case for altering it to accommodate the new signings?

[Deleted]

definitely the formation I want us to go for, annoyingly Hughes seems to be using 4-5-1

[upthefud]

Hughes' meddling seems to revolve around him not trusting MVG. 42 31 is best. The space is to show that the 2 should be almost caged to give a good solid platform.

[kustokie]

I just hope we have a plan on Saturday and it's explained to the players. I'm not sure we had a plan and if we did the players didn't seem to know what it was.

[chiefdelilah]

Sept 15, 2015 0:03:42 GMT trickydicky73 said:

Has it changed from last season with the comings and goings? Are we still suited to 4-2-3-1 or is there a case for altering it to accommodate the new signings?

Our best formation is still 4-2-3-1. Hughes for some reason hasn't started a league game with it this season.

[Jamo on the wing]

Sept 15, 2015 6:52:33 GMT chiefdelilah said:

Sept 15, 2015 0:03:42 GMT trickydicky73 said:

Has it changed from last season with the comings and goings? Are we still suited to 4-2-3-1 or is there a case for altering it to accommodate the new signings?

Our best formation is still 4-2-3-1. Hughes for some reason hasn't started a league game with it this season.

Yep, the second holding player is still an issue but you'd think our best looking team on paper would be:

Jack

GJ
Ryan
Muni
Erik

Whelan
MVG/Cameron/Adam/Sidwell/Ireland

Shaqiri
Bojan
Arnie

Diouf

I'm confident things will improve once we get the bulk of that side on the pitch and solve who partners Whelan.

[Deleted]

Never thought I'd say this, but I hope Glen Johnson is fit for this game.

[LphPotter]

4-2-3-1

[cousindupree]

I never thought i would say this but looking at the options maybe Cameron who is a fine athlete might be the closest we have to filling Nzonzis boots in 4 2 3 1

[trickydicky73]

Sept 15, 2015 11:06:45 GMT cousindupree said:

I never thought i would say this but looking at the options maybe Cameron who is a fine athlete might be the closest we have to filling Nzonzis boots in 4 2 3 1

Where does that leave Gink?

[mailman44]

3-5-2 when we have a full squad.

And before this meltdown occurs on the board over playing three at the back I will have you know it won the title for me as Stoke on Football Manager! F@ck off Bayern!

[cousindupree]

Sept 15, 2015 11:07:55 GMT trickydicky73 said:

Sept 15, 2015 11:06:45 GMT cousindupree said:

I never thought i would say this but looking at the options maybe Cameron who is a fine athlete might be the closest we have to filling Nzonzis boots in 4 2 3 1

Where does that leave Gink?

Starting at Fulham to hopefully find some form

[Jamo on the wing]

I think it's time to see if Geoff can hold down a place alongside Glenn and give us the discipline and game savvy (but at the same time energetic) performances we need.

[RAF]

Sept 15, 2015 11:06:45 GMT cousindupree said:

I never thought i would say this but looking at the options maybe Cameron who is a fine athlete might be the closest we have to filling Nzonzis boots in 4 2 3 1

Dean Whitehead was a fine athlete as well.
The last thing we want is another dog chasing balloons, which imho is what we will get with Cameron in midfield.

H

[Bick]

Didn't Bowen suggest we were 4-4-2 against Arsenal?...

[davejohnno1]

Sept 15, 2015 11:36:17 GMT RAF said:

Sept 15, 2015 11:06:45 GMT cousindupree said:

I never thought i would say this but looking at the options maybe Cameron who is a fine athlete might be the closest we have to filling Nzonzis boots in 4 2 3 1

Dean Whitehead was a fine athlete as well.
The last thing we want is another dog chasing balloons, which imho is what we will get with Cameron in midfield.

H

I'm inclined to agree with raf here.

Cameron has attributes that would make you think he'd do a good job in there but the main reason seems to be to get him out of the back line.

I'd bring Wilson, sidwell and Ireland into the team on Saturday.

Jack
Johnson/Cameron Wilson, muniesa, pieters
Sidwell, Whelan
Shaq, Ireland, Arnie
Diouf

[chiefdelilah]

Sept 15, 2015 11:47:09 GMT Bick said:

Didn't Bowen suggest we were 4-4-2 against Arsenal?...

We were.

And 4-1-4-1 in the games before that.

[Jamo on the wing]

Sept 15, 2015 12:07:25 GMT davejohnno1 said:

Sept 15, 2015 11:36:17 GMT RAF said:

Dean Whitehead was a fine athlete as well.
The last thing we want is another dog chasing balloons, which imho is what we will get with Cameron in midfield.

H

I'm inclined to agree with raf here.

Cameron has attributes that would make you think he'd do a good job in there but the main reason seems to be to get him out of the back line.

I'd bring Wilson, sidwell and Ireland into the team on Saturday.

Jack
Johnson/Cameron Wilson, muniesa, pieters
Sidwell, Whelan
Shaq, Ireland, Arnie
Diouf

My gut instinct is the same with regards to Cameron.

The worry with Sidwell is he seems a yard short but generally he knows the role better than Geoff.

It's a real dilemma as none of the potential candidates scream "pick me!" to you.

[upthefud]

Sept 15, 2015 12:07:25 GMT davejohnno1 said:

Sept 15, 2015 11:36:17 GMT RAF said:

Dean Whitehead was a fine athlete as well.
The last thing we want is another dog chasing balloons, which imho is what we will get with Cameron in midfield.

H

I'm inclined to agree with raf here.

Cameron has attributes that would make you think he'd do a good job in there but the main reason seems to be to get him out of the back line.

I'd bring Wilson, sidwell and Ireland into the team on Saturday.

Jack
Johnson/Cameron Wilson, muniesa, pieters
Sidwell, Whelan
Shaq, Ireland, Arnie
Diouf

I'm glad there's at least one other person on here who'd pick Sidwell, I thought I was losing my mind.

After suspension id like to see Adam get a run of 3/4 games alongside Whelan to see if he can make that position his own, sadly I don't think his early balls forward will be as suited to Shaq/Arnie as they would to Moses if we were to hit teams on the break. Palace look so good away because Cabeye can pick out Bolasie/Zaha early and that's carnage when teams aren't settled.

[davejohnno1]

Sept 15, 2015 12:27:48 GMT upthefud said:

Sept 15, 2015 12:07:25 GMT davejohnno1 said:

I'm inclined to agree with raf here.

Cameron has attributes that would make you think he'd do a good job in there but the main reason seems to be to get him out of the back line.

I'd bring Wilson, sidwell and Ireland into the team on Saturday.

Jack
Johnson/Cameron Wilson, muniesa, pieters
Sidwell, Whelan
Shaq, Ireland, Arnie
Diouf

I'm glad there's at least one other person on here who'd pick Sidwell, I thought I was losing my mind.

After suspension id like to see Adam get a run of 3/4 games alongside Whelan to see if he can make that position his own, sadly I don't think his early balls forward will be as suited to Shaq/Arnie as they would to Moses if we were to hit teams on the break. Palace look so good away because Cabeye can pick out Bolasie/Zaha early and that's carnage when teams aren't settled.

In my opinion sidwell has waited patiently for his chance and right now, he should be given it.

I think his experience and know how would be a valuable asset and he'd benefit from the start.

For, me, when he was given a run last season both he and the team played very well. Only his own injury curtailed that.

[whydelilah]

It has to be 4-2-3-1

Butland

Johnson Cameron Muni Pieters

AnyoneButWhelan Van Ginkel

Shaqiri Bojan Arnie

Diouf

[cheeesfreeex]

I really don't get the general outcry about Hughes utilizing something a bit unexpected against Arsenal.
We were as long in the odds as 12 to 1 to win, 5-1 for the draw.
It was a brave move to adopt the revolving 4-4-2 {The 'Olive Whisk'}
It wasn't perfectly executed, but any system is as good as the key components.
The shape changes throughout the game, in different phases, but it always relies on players putting a full shift in.
Arnie and Diouf were doubtful {and looked it}, Whelan was generally shocking, and the rest were undercooked {to be kind}.
I would quibble with the choice of starters: Crouch for Joselu, and a more disciplined and defensive RB. {Cameron/Wilson} for me.
It was crucial for the plan to have worked to keep a compact shape with a man up top for the ball to stick to, as one of the pressure valves.
Diouf digging in to nick it from midfield too. Like against Man City away and against Man U at the Brit the previous year with Walters doing the digging.}
I thought Bardsley was a contributory factor in the failure to execute the plan on saturday. He constantly adopted a high starting line, pulling the shape apart and leading to some of the forward rotation and general wandering. I'm all for the RB to bomb on, but when they continually fail to exploit the movement of the forwards, or just ends up with a wild blast, it needs to be more selective. On saturday Bardsley spent too much time loitering in the area where Shaq attacks should have been launched from. Bardsley is a seasoned pro with International caps and yet was too busy getting involved in petty feuds than marshalling a line or offering anything at set pieces.
We had Ryan at the Etihad, another major factor.
As I see it, the game plan wasn't far off. Arsenal were playing to script, dominating possession, beautiful passing and movement but failing to score.
A sloppy set piece aside we'd managed a minor miracle to stay in it, if only one of our mis-firers had got a rub {like Diouf at the Etihad} it might have been a Spurs like fightback second half, but it fizzled. In my view that was the performers not the system.

I can understand bringing Ireland on to break up the midfield, but after a wake up call at half time it looked like we hit the snooze button.
Ireland relies on intelligent or at least intelligable runs around him. It wasn't happening enough. Hughes is undoubtedly working on a fluid and flexible forward line, and when it starts to work it'll bamboozle the opposition. But in that game, where some discipline in shape was required it only served to bamboozle us. It should have been put on hold for another day.

I wouldn't have twisted like Hughes did. I would have switched Bardsley for Wilson, Crouch for Joselu, Sidders for MVG or Whelan.

In his reign Hughes has shuffled with the squad and formations up until xmas, has settled on a preferred option in the new year.
But has still shown willing to mix it up for certain opponents. I'm sure it'll be the same this year.

We need Bojan back firing before the full implementation of 4-2-3-1 {the 'Extended Ted Rogers'}.
I'm sure he'll start moving towards that as Bojan's minutes increase.
It's surprising he doesn't pilot it with Ireland.

But if Bardsley has to play {and to a lesser extent Johnson} I'd acknowledge that we generally do get sucked into a mish mash at the back, and go 3-5-2.

[imho]

How about 4321 with the extra deeper midfielder hopefully helping to protect the back 4.
Butland
GlenJ Wilson muni pieters
VGink GCam Whealan
Shaq arnie
Diouf

Still plenty of talent going forward but adds that vital protection without dropping VGink - as if you drop him now you might as well write him off.

[chiefdelilah]

Sept 15, 2015 13:28:42 GMT cheeesfreeex said:

I really don't get the general outcry about Hughes utilizing something a bit unexpected against Arsenal.
We were as long in the odds as 12 to 1 to win, 5-1 for the draw.
It was a brave move to adopt the revolving 4-4-2 {The 'Olive Whisk'}
It wasn't perfectly executed, but any system is as good as the key components.
The shape changes throughout the game, in different phases, but it always relies on players putting a full shift in.
Arnie and Diouf were doubtful {and looked it}, Whelan was generally shocking, and the rest were undercooked {to be kind}.
I would quibble with the choice of starters: Crouch for Joselu, and a more disciplined and defensive RB. {Cameron/Wilson} for me.
It was crucial for the plan to have worked to keep a compact shape with a man up top for the ball to stick to, as one of the pressure valves.
Diouf digging in to nick it from midfield too. Like against Man City away and against Man U at the Brit the previous year with Walters doing the digging.}
I thought Bardsley was a contributory factor in the failure to execute the plan on saturday. He constantly adopted a high starting line, pulling the shape apart and leading to some of the forward rotation and general wandering. I'm all for the RB to bomb on, but when they continually fail to exploit the movement of the forwards, or just ends up with a wild blast, it needs to be more selective. On saturday Bardsley spent too much time loitering in the area where Shaq attacks should have been launched from. Bardsley is a seasoned pro with International caps and yet was too busy getting involved in petty feuds than marshalling a line or offering anything at set pieces.
We had Ryan at the Etihad, another major factor.
As I see it, the game plan wasn't far off. Arsenal were playing to script, dominating possession, beautiful passing and movement but failing to score.
A sloppy set piece aside we'd managed a minor miracle to stay in it, if only one of our mis-firers had got a rub {like Diouf at the Etihad} it might have been a Spurs like fightback second half, but it fizzled. In my view that was the performers not the system.

I can understand bringing Ireland on to break up the midfield, but after a wake up call at half time it looked like we hit the snooze button.
Ireland relies on intelligent or at least intelligable runs around him. It wasn't happening enough. Hughes is undoubtedly working on a fluid and flexible forward line, and when it starts to work it'll bamboozle the opposition. But in that game, where some discipline in shape was required it only served to bamboozle us. It should have been put on hold for another day.

I wouldn't have twisted like Hughes did. I would have switched Bardsley for Wilson, Crouch for Joselu, Sidders for MVG or Whelan.

In his reign Hughes has shuffled with the squad and formations up until xmas, has settled on a preferred option in the new year.
But has still shown willing to mix it up for certain opponents. I'm sure it'll be the same this year.

We need Bojan back firing before the full implementation of 4-2-3-1 {the 'Extended Ted Rogers'}.
I'm sure he'll start moving towards that as Bojan's minutes increase.
It's surprising he doesn't pilot it with Ireland.

But if Bardsley has to play {and to a lesser extent Johnson} I'd acknowledge that we generally do get sucked into a mish mash at the back, and go 3-5-2.

I don't see why we can't play 4-2-3-1 without Bojan. We've done so this season and produced our only good football doing so. We did so before his arrival and finished 9th.

[slpmarc]

Sept 15, 2015 15:41:19 GMT chiefdelilah said:

Sept 15, 2015 13:28:42 GMT cheeesfreeex said:

I really don't get the general outcry about Hughes utilizing something a bit unexpected against Arsenal.
We were as long in the odds as 12 to 1 to win, 5-1 for the draw.
It was a brave move to adopt the revolving 4-4-2 {The 'Olive Whisk'}
It wasn't perfectly executed, but any system is as good as the key components.
The shape changes throughout the game, in different phases, but it always relies on players putting a full shift in.
Arnie and Diouf were doubtful {and looked it}, Whelan was generally shocking, and the rest were undercooked {to be kind}.
I would quibble with the choice of starters: Crouch for Joselu, and a more disciplined and defensive RB. {Cameron/Wilson} for me.
It was crucial for the plan to have worked to keep a compact shape with a man up top for the ball to stick to, as one of the pressure valves.
Diouf digging in to nick it from midfield too. Like against Man City away and against Man U at the Brit the previous year with Walters doing the digging.}
I thought Bardsley was a contributory factor in the failure to execute the plan on saturday. He constantly adopted a high starting line, pulling the shape apart and leading to some of the forward rotation and general wandering. I'm all for the RB to bomb on, but when they continually fail to exploit the movement of the forwards, or just ends up with a wild blast, it needs to be more selective. On saturday Bardsley spent too much time loitering in the area where Shaq attacks should have been launched from. Bardsley is a seasoned pro with International caps and yet was too busy getting involved in petty feuds than marshalling a line or offering anything at set pieces.
We had Ryan at the Etihad, another major factor.
As I see it, the game plan wasn't far off. Arsenal were playing to script, dominating possession, beautiful passing and movement but failing to score.
A sloppy set piece aside we'd managed a minor miracle to stay in it, if only one of our mis-firers had got a rub {like Diouf at the Etihad} it might have been a Spurs like fightback second half, but it fizzled. In my view that was the performers not the system.

I can understand bringing Ireland on to break up the midfield, but after a wake up call at half time it looked like we hit the snooze button.
Ireland relies on intelligent or at least intelligable runs around him. It wasn't happening enough. Hughes is undoubtedly working on a fluid and flexible forward line, and when it starts to work it'll bamboozle the opposition. But in that game, where some discipline in shape was required it only served to bamboozle us. It should have been put on hold for another day.

I wouldn't have twisted like Hughes did. I would have switched Bardsley for Wilson, Crouch for Joselu, Sidders for MVG or Whelan.

In his reign Hughes has shuffled with the squad and formations up until xmas, has settled on a preferred option in the new year.
But has still shown willing to mix it up for certain opponents. I'm sure it'll be the same this year.

We need Bojan back firing before the full implementation of 4-2-3-1 {the 'Extended Ted Rogers'}.
I'm sure he'll start moving towards that as Bojan's minutes increase.
It's surprising he doesn't pilot it with Ireland.

But if Bardsley has to play {and to a lesser extent Johnson} I'd acknowledge that we generally do get sucked into a mish mash at the back, and go 3-5-2.

I don't see why we can't play 4-2-3-1 without Bojan. We've done so this season and produced our only good football doing so. We did so before his arrival and finished 9th.

I agree 4-2-3-1 can be played without Bojan, but Hughes still needs to play the right player at Number 10 and Adam or Affaley are not it. Should be Ireland or play 4-1-4-1 or 4-4-1-1 if team playing is more adventurous

[chiefdelilah]

Sept 15, 2015 15:51:59 GMT slpmarc said:

Sept 15, 2015 15:41:19 GMT chiefdelilah said:

I don't see why we can't play 4-2-3-1 without Bojan. We've done so this season and produced our only good football doing so. We did so before his arrival and finished 9th.

I agree 4-2-3-1 can be played without Bojan, but Hughes still needs to play the right player at Number 10 and Adam or Affaley are not it. Should be Ireland or play 4-1-4-1 or 4-4-1-1 if team playing is more adventurous

It should be Ireland in the first instance. You could try Shaqiri there too or even Walters at a push. Otherwise yeah, 4-1-4-1 with Adam deeper.

[kustokie]

Sept 15, 2015 13:28:42 GMT cheeesfreeex said:

I really don't get the general outcry about Hughes utilizing something a bit unexpected against Arsenal.
We were as long in the odds as 12 to 1 to win, 5-1 for the draw.
It was a brave move to adopt the revolving 4-4-2 {The 'Olive Whisk'}
It wasn't perfectly executed, but any system is as good as the key components.
The shape changes throughout the game, in different phases, but it always relies on players putting a full shift in.
Arnie and Diouf were doubtful {and looked it}, Whelan was generally shocking, and the rest were undercooked {to be kind}.
I would quibble with the choice of starters: Crouch for Joselu, and a more disciplined and defensive RB. {Cameron/Wilson} for me.
It was crucial for the plan to have worked to keep a compact shape with a man up top for the ball to stick to, as one of the pressure valves.
Diouf digging in to nick it from midfield too. Like against Man City away and against Man U at the Brit the previous year with Walters doing the digging.}
I thought Bardsley was a contributory factor in the failure to execute the plan on saturday. He constantly adopted a high starting line, pulling the shape apart and leading to some of the forward rotation and general wandering. I'm all for the RB to bomb on, but when they continually fail to exploit the movement of the forwards, or just ends up with a wild blast, it needs to be more selective. On saturday Bardsley spent too much time loitering in the area where Shaq attacks should have been launched from. Bardsley is a seasoned pro with International caps and yet was too busy getting involved in petty feuds than marshalling a line or offering anything at set pieces.
We had Ryan at the Etihad, another major factor.
As I see it, the game plan wasn't far off. Arsenal were playing to script, dominating possession, beautiful passing and movement but failing to score.
A sloppy set piece aside we'd managed a minor miracle to stay in it, if only one of our mis-firers had got a rub {like Diouf at the Etihad} it might have been a Spurs like fightback second half, but it fizzled. In my view that was the performers not the system.

I can understand bringing Ireland on to break up the midfield, but after a wake up call at half time it looked like we hit the snooze button.
Ireland relies on intelligent or at least intelligable runs around him. It wasn't happening enough. Hughes is undoubtedly working on a fluid and flexible forward line, and when it starts to work it'll bamboozle the opposition. But in that game, where some discipline in shape was required it only served to bamboozle us. It should have been put on hold for another day.

I wouldn't have twisted like Hughes did. I would have switched Bardsley for Wilson, Crouch for Joselu, Sidders for MVG or Whelan.

In his reign Hughes has shuffled with the squad and formations up until xmas, has settled on a preferred option in the new year.
But has still shown willing to mix it up for certain opponents. I'm sure it'll be the same this year.

We need Bojan back firing before the full implementation of 4-2-3-1 {the 'Extended Ted Rogers'}.
I'm sure he'll start moving towards that as Bojan's minutes increase.
It's surprising he doesn't pilot it with Ireland.

But if Bardsley has to play {and to a lesser extent Johnson} I'd acknowledge that we generally do get sucked into a mish mash at the back, and go 3-5-2.

I don't have a problem experimenting with a system;however, I am not sure experimentaion is a good idea against one of the best teams in Europe - maybe it is, maybe it isn't.  Whatever the system, it's obvious that the participants should know their roles and have worked on it in training.  I suppose this means revealing the starting line-up days ahead of time, which may be tricky during injuries.  I do believe in the old saying "if you don't have a plan, there's nothing to deviate from".  I do some coaching with U-15 boys, but I certainly I don't pretend to be an expert.  One thing I do know that works: we have a basic formation that we work on in practice and then discuss options and players' roles if we have to change during the game.  I am sure I'm oversimplifying this but I would love to hear other people's opinions.

[cheeesfreeex]

Sept 15, 2015 15:41:19 GMT chiefdelilah said:

Sept 15, 2015 13:28:42 GMT cheeesfreeex said:

I really don't get the general outcry about Hughes utilizing something a bit unexpected against Arsenal.
We were as long in the odds as 12 to 1 to win, 5-1 for the draw.

I don't see why we can't play 4-2-3-1 without Bojan. We've done so this season and produced our only good football doing so. We did so before his arrival and finished 9th.

Not sure mate. He still doesn't seem to trust Ireland as a starter, and his other no10 options are restricted at the moment. Afellay, Adam unavailable etc.
He's shied away from the 4-2-3-1 as far as I can see this season so far.
Which game this year do you think he deplpoyed it effectively?
As I said I'm chuffed he's prepared to mix it up and I'm sure he will again.
His lack of faith in Ireland as a starter may be a mystery to some, but not to me at the moment.
I applaud the unpredictability.

[chiefdelilah]

Sept 15, 2015 16:11:33 GMT cheeesfreeex said:

Sept 15, 2015 15:41:19 GMT chiefdelilah said:

I don't see why we can't play 4-2-3-1 without Bojan. We've done so this season and produced our only good football doing so. We did so before his arrival and finished 9th.

Not sure mate. He still doesn't seem to trust Ireland as a starter, and his other no10 options are restricted at the moment. Afellay, Adam unavailable etc.
He's shied away from the 4-2-3-1 as far as I can see this season so far.
Which game this year do you think he deplpoyed it effectively?
As I said I'm chuffed he's prepared to mix it up and I'm sure he will again.
His lack of faith in Ireland as a starter may be a mystery to some, but not to me at the moment.
I applaud the unpredictability.

You've got this weird hatred of Ireland though haven't you Cheesy?

Our best football of the season was the last half hour at Spurs when we went 4-2-3-1 and Ireland bossed it. He created a couple of decent chances when the same thing happened at Norwich.

He doesn't always perform but he's surely done enough to warrant a start? That's been Hughes' whole thing up to now, that he runs a meritocracy?

[kustokie]

There's mean much talk about trying 3-5-2. If we tried this, who would be your back three and who would be the wing backs. It seems to me, we would have to go with something like:

Wilson Cameron Muniesa

Johnson **** **** **** Arnuatovic

***** *****

I suppose that's not too different than the 4-4-2 we already tried with Johnson pushing forward. Shawcross for Cameron, looks a good deal better. Wolly or Tex for Cameron would be worse.