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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 16, 2015 9:11:35 GMT
Having watched the bullying and self interests being played out with the Greece debacle, would someone please explain why being in the EU is good for the interests of the British people?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 16, 2015 9:22:07 GMT
For the general public in the UK it isn't.
For the powerful, the new bourgeoisie it is.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 9:35:37 GMT
Because the banking and insurance and investments markets are all based in London . The money generated from these alone is greater than several GDPs of many African countries . It has already been mentioned that if we left the Eurozone then the Germans or French would set up their own on home territory . At the moment we are seen as a fly in the ointment , so little determination on the German or French part would be needed to set the ball rolling . If Britain failed to maintain its status as a base for the financial markets then this country would simply collapse and become bankrupt . The amount of money lost would be 100 times more than Greece currently owes and that's not including all the financial sectors allied to it .
Then you have to consider the trade we have in Europe ...free trade with preferential contracts and agreements which prevent in some cases competition from outside Europe .
This isn't rocket science . It doesn't matter what party you support , the argument to leave the EU is a dead duck . It's not worthy of debate .its not an argument ...it's a fact of life .
There is a separate argument or what should be a separate argument about the social charter and immigration rules and legislation , but at present all this lumped together making it extremely complicated to dissect it all on an individual basis examining the pro's and cons .
Farage knows all this ...he's spent long enough to realise the outcome , but it's a big game of smoke and mirrors . He is hoping that one day it will all implode and that we can then walk away a free man / country . That is our only hope ...the only way out .
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jul 16, 2015 9:41:20 GMT
For a variety of huge reasons (easy trade with 28 other countries, upholding basic human rights, positive working directives, wider range of influences on our own government, positive economic benefits from EU migration etc) and a variety of smaller, logistical reasons (easy travel, wider consumer choices etc).
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 16, 2015 10:12:12 GMT
Because the banking and insurance and investments markets are all based in London . The money generated from these alone is greater than several GDPs of many African countries . It has already been mentioned that if we left the Eurozone then the Germans or French would set up their own on home territory . At the moment we are seen as a fly in the ointment , so little determination on the German or French part would be needed to set the ball rolling . If Britain failed to maintain its status as a base for the financial markets then this country would simply collapse and become bankrupt . The amount of money lost would be 100 times more than Greece currently owes and that's not including all the financial sectors allied to it . Then you have to consider the trade we have in Europe ...free trade with preferential contracts and agreements which prevent in some cases competition from outside Europe . This isn't rocket science . It doesn't matter what party you support , the argument to leave the EU is a dead duck . It's not worthy of debate .its not an argument ...it's a fact of life . There is a separate argument or what should be a separate argument about the social charter and immigration rules and legislation , but at present all this lumped together making it extremely complicated to dissect it all on an individual basis examining the pro's and cons . Farage knows all this ...he's spent long enough to realise the outcome , but it's a big game of smoke and mirrors . He is hoping that one day it will all implode and that we can then walk away a free man / country . That is our only hope ...the only way out . The City of London is a big factor. The problem with the EU though is the different views on what it should be - with two extremes from a simple trading zone (where it effectively started) to a political union (which is the direction it has moved gradually and continuously ever since). The former is fairly straightforward and broadly popular, the second far more complex and much less popular! The question is how much of the latter (political union) is needed to maximise the former (effectively economic prosperity). The Eurocrats believe they are integral; that the most effective economic performance comes from ever closer political union. The euro sceptics believe political union is not needed and if anything is counterproductive - ie economies suffer. Recent evidence suggests the sceptics are right. A return to a predominantly trade based Union would seem sensible - Back To The EEC, as the Beatles might have sung. |
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 16, 2015 10:17:37 GMT
Because the banking and insurance and investments markets are all based in London . The money generated from these alone is greater than several GDPs of many African countries . It has already been mentioned that if we left the Eurozone then the Germans or French would set up their own on home territory . At the moment we are seen as a fly in the ointment , so little determination on the German or French part would be needed to set the ball rolling . If Britain failed to maintain its status as a base for the financial markets then this country would simply collapse and become bankrupt . The amount of money lost would be 100 times more than Greece currently owes and that's not including all the financial sectors allied to it . Then you have to consider the trade we have in Europe ...free trade with preferential contracts and agreements which prevent in some cases competition from outside Europe . This isn't rocket science . It doesn't matter what party you support , the argument to leave the EU is a dead duck . It's not worthy of debate .its not an argument ...it's a fact of life . There is a separate argument or what should be a separate argument about the social charter and immigration rules and legislation , but at present all this lumped together making it extremely complicated to dissect it all on an individual basis examining the pro's and cons . Farage knows all this ...he's spent long enough to realise the outcome , but it's a big game of smoke and mirrors . He is hoping that one day it will all implode and that we can then walk away a free man / country . That is our only hope ...the only way out . That's a good argument in principle, but having seen how the Germans have handled the Greek issue, I see no reason why at some future point, they don't put "a little determination" into making Franfurt, the European commercial capital. It would make sense to do so, as it's where the European Central Bank is located... Being out of Europe would enable the UK Government to control the attractiveness of doing business in the City and Canary Wharf. I believe that saying that, "it's not worthy of deabte" etc., is accepting a fait accompli. Sovereignty is constantly being ceded to Brussels, and the economic power is heading to Berlin/Frankfurt. We are on the road losing our power to having a say in how our country is run. I'm sure there are people that believe that we will be better off as part of a greater Europe, I'm guessing that you are one of them. I, however, do not wish to be governed by a remote non democratic entity. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 13:01:07 GMT
Given the failings in the Greek economy and its calamitous demise should serve as an example to us all as to what can and does go wrong . It's not necessarily the fault of one or two countries , but of the frailities of the system and the broad differences in economies .
Any economist will tell you that to hold all these countries together in financial harmony is an extremely difficult task given the complexities of the situation .
I know there are some of us who would argue that we should be doing more to thrash out a more rigid anti Europe stance , but when faced with the massed ranks of the member states we are in a minority of one . Our bargaining strength is very limited and overall reluctance to accept the German and French philosophy is well known .
The only way forward is if more countries came on board and demanded less integration , but more self autonomy . I am referring to going along with all the trade links , but not the currency or economic unity.
I don't like being run by Europe at all . I have never liked the idea and furthermore I never will , not withstanding however , that I know what the flip side is and what our exit out of Europe would mean to this country . I don't see my comments as an opinion , but more as acceptance of the bigger picture .
This is a union that will be around for many more decades to come and our ability to self govern become even more limited .
Shame .....
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 16, 2015 15:30:23 GMT
I am not an economist and don't pretend to be...but I know a man who is!
This is part of his response when I brought up the issues on this thread .I thought that I would post them, just as food for thought.I cannot necessarily defend them, but trust my friend.
I have asked him for 'references 'to support his assertions and await his response. ( Obviously , and to clarify any accusations of bias , it is no secret that he is clearly a member of UKIP)
"
The UK financial sector dominates on a global scale not just a UK or EU stage, the only other financial centre comparable is New York.
The French and Germans could not compete with London for many years – not even with ECB support. WTO trade rules state that trade barriers cannot be erected against UK and as such this is a non-argument. Competition is another matter. Frankfurt and Paris could try to ‘out compete’ London but a UK free of the EU regulations (which are at the root of the financial crash – and certainly the EU banking crisis) would be unable to compete in more than a couple of areas.
The Financial sector is extremely important but not critical. UK is still the 7th largest manufacturing economy in the world, working in many very high tech sectors. The UK economy for all its faults is also very broadly based and very deep providing for a level of stability few others can achieve as is exemplified by our ability to achieve bond rates as low as we do. (Germany’s are better – but not for long once we exit EU and the regs which bind us).
True the UK debt to GDP ratio is far too high at 550% GDP. This is the highest in the world as a % of GDP. – But our economic depth and breadth as stated above mitigates this to some extent. The UK does radically need to reduce debt – MASSIVELY. Sovereign debt is a central tool of the EU to tie nations to the EU and dependence upon the ECB / EU. Free of the EU , the UK could reduce debt levels easily. EU payments, Overseas Aid, EU Aid contribution, Quangos and EU regulations on business would free up over £300Bn per annum (Ref: Tax Payers Alliance) Etal,
Even the Office of Budget Responsibility & HMRC / Treasury acknowledge that the UK economy would grow an additional 1.6-1.9% over the next three years (on top of current growth forecast) and it is in their interests to show as low a figure as possible to support EU membership. So the higher estimates from CBI and Analysts at 3.1-3.7% would be more accurate."
Unfortunately more will follow!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 16, 2015 15:32:36 GMT
His view about our trading position post EU
"WTO rules prevent trade barriers between EU & UK
UK runs a trade surplus with 6 of the 7 major global trade blocks – the only trade block we run a deficit ( a huge deficit) is the EU. Any contract would be honoured (international law) and amendments to contracts and agreements are common place in any business environment. Legal transition is a common practice also.
The point of Sovereignty is to trade and compete. So competing with others is good."
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 16, 2015 15:39:13 GMT
On the question of trying to separate issues of immigration from membership of the EU
"There is no “separate question” – you cannot change or affect any of the other issues whilst remaining in the EU. Cameron has already been told he cannot stop immigration / free movement of people or Asylum and movement of immigrants and asylum seekers around the EU. Indeed UK has been told to prepare for an EU dispersment programme of migrants from Libya and Syria. Equally the EU has during this crisis defacto taken control of immigration at a EU level. So No, within the EU you cannot achieve any of that. Only tailoring around the edges. Cameron has also been told by Junkers that there will be no treaty change or abandonment of Free Movement. So Cameron prepares to rig the Referendum now"
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 16, 2015 16:26:36 GMT
Rather than concentrating on the demise of the UK, the question needs to be asked, what would happen to the EU , following a UK exit.
If the UK left the EU I am not sure that the EU could survive in its current form. Our contribution is vital to enable them to 'support' the less affluent nations.Also many of the projects would have to be curtailed; possibly the Common Agricultural Polcy reduced, with implications for the French.
To leave would bring many problems and challenges, but to stay is not Utopia....and I believe that the UK will continually be expected to subsidise the experiment, with no power to do anything about it.
On the Eurozone ,it seems to me that it would have made more sense for solely the northern European nations to form their own currency.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 16, 2015 18:08:50 GMT
Because the banking and insurance and investments markets are all based in London . The money generated from these alone is greater than several GDPs of many African countries . It has already been mentioned that if we left the Eurozone then the Germans or French would set up their own on home territory . At the moment we are seen as a fly in the ointment , so little determination on the German or French part would be needed to set the ball rolling . If Britain failed to maintain its status as a base for the financial markets then this country would simply collapse and become bankrupt . The amount of money lost would be 100 times more than Greece currently owes and that's not including all the financial sectors allied to it . Then you have to consider the trade we have in Europe ...free trade with preferential contracts and agreements which prevent in some cases competition from outside Europe . This isn't rocket science . It doesn't matter what party you support , the argument to leave the EU is a dead duck . It's not worthy of debate .its not an argument ...it's a fact of life . There is a separate argument or what should be a separate argument about the social charter and immigration rules and legislation , but at present all this lumped together making it extremely complicated to dissect it all on an individual basis examining the pro's and cons . Farage knows all this ...he's spent long enough to realise the outcome , but it's a big game of smoke and mirrors . He is hoping that one day it will all implode and that we can then walk away a free man / country . That is our only hope ...the only way out . That's a good argument in principle, but having seen how the Germans have handled the Greek issue, I see no reason why at some future point, they don't put "a little determination" into making Franfurt, the European commercial capital. It would make sense to do so, as it's where the European Central Bank is located... Being out of Europe would enable the UK Government to control the attractiveness of doing business in the City and Canary Wharf. I believe that saying that, "it's not worthy of deabte" etc., is accepting a fait accompli. Sovereignty is constantly being ceded to Brussels, and the economic power is heading to Berlin/Frankfurt. We are on the road losing our power to having a say in how our country is run. I'm sure there are people that believe that we will be better off as part of a greater Europe, I'm guessing that you are one of them. I, however, do not wish to be governed by a remote non democratic entity. Richie, This is one of the best and most concise posts on the subject I have seen for a long long time. Whether we are in or out I can see the EU wanting Frankfurt to be the European financial centre within the next 10 years. Secondly I can see there being a 'requirement' to join the 'Eurozone' when we have been eroded of any powers to resist, even if it takes 20 years. Where does that leave us? The Greek debacle shows to me that whilst we are supposed to be cooperating as we move towards' ever closer union' , in reality we are also competing....In this respect France and Germany certainly would not do us any favours. It's funny how many blame the bankers...but also say that we can't do without them....shows that things are not simple. For me, democracy, and all the dangers and opportunities that provides, trumps the threat that outside the EU we will fail. Similar to what Gandhi said on India leaving the Empire , paraphrasing , there will be problems but at least they will be OUR problems. |
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Post by starkiller on Jul 16, 2015 18:21:37 GMT
For a variety of huge reasons (easy trade with 28 other countries, upholding basic human rights, positive working directives, wider range of influences on our own government, positive economic benefits from EU migration etc) and a variety of smaller, logistical reasons (easy travel, wider consumer choices etc). How does it make travel easier? I believe these European places would be the same distance away whether in the EU or not? Or is the EU some kind of Star Trek transporter? |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 16, 2015 18:58:37 GMT
For a variety of huge reasons (easy trade with 28 other countries, upholding basic human rights, positive working directives, wider range of influences on our own government, positive economic benefits from EU migration etc) and a variety of smaller, logistical reasons (easy travel, wider consumer choices etc). How does it make travel easier? I believe these European places would be the same distance away whether in the EU or not? Or is the EU some kind of Star Trek transporter? The. 'easy' travel into the UK is one of the things many of us want to stop.May be inconvenient for holidaymakers , but so are the security checks which we have to accept with air travel. I wouldn't feel safe without them, unfortunately this is the world we live in. On many of the other issues which Rip mentions... as a country we should be able to sort out our own Human Rights and working directives. If we can't do this in a compassionate way ( and I understand the argument that a Tory government would not), the answer is not to have them imposed upon us by the EU .This would be abdicating responsibility. |
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Post by yeokel on Jul 16, 2015 19:44:43 GMT
For a variety of huge reasons (easy trade with 28 other countries, upholding basic human rights, positive working directives, wider range of influences on our own government, positive economic benefits from EU migration etc) and a variety of smaller, logistical reasons (easy travel, wider consumer choices etc). How does it make travel easier? I believe these European places would be the same distance away whether in the EU or not? To ask such a naive question, one can only assume that you haven't traveled very much outside the EEC or Europe. But start thinking of border crossings & customs points, visa checks, health & travel insurance requirements, easy access to currency, a fairly straightforward regularity system, inoculation requirements (humans and pets) and many other rules & regulations which I can't be bothered to think about and you might begin to form a picture. "Easier" doesn't mean closer, it means less hassle. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 19:56:34 GMT
How does it make travel easier? I believe these European places would be the same distance away whether in the EU or not? To ask such a naive question, one can only assume that you haven't traveled very much outside the EEC or Europe. But start thinking of border crossings & customs points, visa checks, health & travel insurance requirements, easy access to currency, a fairly straightforward regularity system, inoculation requirements (humans and pets) and many other rules & regulations which I can't be bothered to think about and you might begin to form a picture. "Easier" doesn't mean closer, it means less hassle. Oh yeh save 5 mins at customs well worth the 52 million a day "one" might say might one. |
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Post by yeokel on Jul 16, 2015 20:23:36 GMT
To ask such a naive question, one can only assume that you haven't traveled very much outside the EEC or Europe. But start thinking of border crossings & customs points, visa checks, health & travel insurance requirements, easy access to currency, a fairly straightforward regularity system, inoculation requirements (humans and pets) and many other rules & regulations which I can't be bothered to think about and you might begin to form a picture. "Easier" doesn't mean closer, it means less hassle. Oh yeh save 5 mins at customs well worth the 52 million a day "one" might say might one. Ah, sorry. I didn't realise that the use of an impersonal pronoun was a faux pas on this site. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 22:52:45 GMT
I am not an economist and don't pretend to be...but I know a man who is! This is part of his response when I brought up the issues on this thread .I thought that I would post them, just as food for thought.I cannot necessarily defend them, but trust my friend. I have asked him for 'references 'to support his assertions and await his response. ( Obviously , and to clarify any accusations of bias , it is no secret that he is clearly a member of UKIP) " The UK financial sector dominates on a global scale not just a UK or EU stage, the only other financial centre comparable is New York. The French and Germans could not compete with London for many years – not even with ECB support. WTO trade rules state that trade barriers cannot be erected against UK and as such this is a non-argument. Competition is another matter. Frankfurt and Paris could try to ‘out compete’ London but a UK free of the EU regulations (which are at the root of the financial crash – and certainly the EU banking crisis) would be unable to compete in more than a couple of areas. The Financial sector is extremely important but not critical. UK is still the 7th largest manufacturing economy in the world, working in many very high tech sectors. The UK economy for all its faults is also very broadly based and very deep providing for a level of stability few others can achieve as is exemplified by our ability to achieve bond rates as low as we do. (Germany’s are better – but not for long once we exit EU and the regs which bind us). True the UK debt to GDP ratio is far too high at 550% GDP. This is the highest in the world as a % of GDP. – But our economic depth and breadth as stated above mitigates this to some extent. The UK does radically need to reduce debt – MASSIVELY. Sovereign debt is a central tool of the EU to tie nations to the EU and dependence upon the ECB / EU. Free of the EU , the UK could reduce debt levels easily. EU payments, Overseas Aid, EU Aid contribution, Quangos and EU regulations on business would free up over £300Bn per annum (Ref: Tax Payers Alliance) Etal, Even the Office of Budget Responsibility & HMRC / Treasury acknowledge that the UK economy would grow an additional 1.6-1.9% over the next three years (on top of current growth forecast) and it is in their interests to show as low a figure as possible to support EU membership. So the higher estimates from CBI and Analysts at 3.1-3.7% would be more accurate." Unfortunately more will follow! He's wrong . The financial sector is critical . No ifs , no buts ....absolutely critical to this countries wealth . We are talking about a figure of £130 billion ......that's 10 % of our overall output . We would not stand an earthly chance of balancing the books . As for the rest of his comments , well it all pales into insignificance after the comment above . |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 23:00:40 GMT
On the question of trying to separate issues of immigration from membership of the EU "There is no “separate question” – you cannot change or affect any of the other issues whilst remaining in the EU. Cameron has already been told he cannot stop immigration / free movement of people or Asylum and movement of immigrants and asylum seekers around the EU. Indeed UK has been told to prepare for an EU dispersment programme of migrants from Libya and Syria. Equally the EU has during this crisis defacto taken control of immigration at a EU level. So No, within the EU you cannot achieve any of that. Only tailoring around the edges. Cameron has also been told by Junkers that there will be no treaty change or abandonment of Free Movement. So Cameron prepares to rig the Referendum now" True ....as I have mentioned many times on here . We cannot escape the EU's stranglehold on us , so what good is UKIP in British politics ? No ,......NO ......No......is the answer from Brussels. A protest vote perhaps , but nothing more . |
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 17, 2015 6:10:53 GMT
Oh yeh save 5 mins at customs well worth the 52 million a day "one" might say might one. Ah, sorry. I didn't realise that the use of an impersonal pronoun was a faux pas on this site. On this site using the term faux pas is a faux pas we prefer fuck up |
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Post by debabelizer on Jul 17, 2015 6:25:36 GMT
It has already been mentioned that if we left the Eurozone then the Germans or French would set up their own on home territory . We are not in the Eurozone. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 17, 2015 6:32:54 GMT
On the question of trying to separate issues of immigration from membership of the EU "There is no “separate question” – you cannot change or affect any of the other issues whilst remaining in the EU. Cameron has already been told he cannot stop immigration / free movement of people or Asylum and movement of immigrants and asylum seekers around the EU. Indeed UK has been told to prepare for an EU dispersment programme of migrants from Libya and Syria. Equally the EU has during this crisis defacto taken control of immigration at a EU level. So No, within the EU you cannot achieve any of that. Only tailoring around the edges. Cameron has also been told by Junkers that there will be no treaty change or abandonment of Free Movement. So Cameron prepares to rig the Referendum now" True ....as I have mentioned many times on here . We cannot escape the EU's stranglehold on us , so what good is UKIP in British politics ? No ,......NO ......No......is the answer from Brussels. A protest vote perhaps , but nothing more . He acknowledges the importance of the Financial sector (not really rocket science ,everyone agrees on this), but as Richie points out this is no more secure within the EU than outside. Many would argue , less so as we move to closer political union. For me Democracy trumps this attempt at financial blackmail as I have said many times before. On the other facts he gives about the economy I believe him to be correct also. We will have to agree to disagree on this. |
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 17, 2015 6:35:51 GMT
I am not an economist and don't pretend to be...but I know a man who is! This is part of his response when I brought up the issues on this thread .I thought that I would post them, just as food for thought.I cannot necessarily defend them, but trust my friend. I have asked him for 'references 'to support his assertions and await his response. ( Obviously , and to clarify any accusations of bias , it is no secret that he is clearly a member of UKIP) " The UK financial sector dominates on a global scale not just a UK or EU stage, the only other financial centre comparable is New York. The French and Germans could not compete with London for many years – not even with ECB support. WTO trade rules state that trade barriers cannot be erected against UK and as such this is a non-argument. Competition is another matter. Frankfurt and Paris could try to ‘out compete’ London but a UK free of the EU regulations (which are at the root of the financial crash – and certainly the EU banking crisis) would be unable to compete in more than a couple of areas. The Financial sector is extremely important but not critical. UK is still the 7th largest manufacturing economy in the world, working in many very high tech sectors. The UK economy for all its faults is also very broadly based and very deep providing for a level of stability few others can achieve as is exemplified by our ability to achieve bond rates as low as we do. (Germany’s are better – but not for long once we exit EU and the regs which bind us). True the UK debt to GDP ratio is far too high at 550% GDP. This is the highest in the world as a % of GDP. – But our economic depth and breadth as stated above mitigates this to some extent. The UK does radically need to reduce debt – MASSIVELY. Sovereign debt is a central tool of the EU to tie nations to the EU and dependence upon the ECB / EU. Free of the EU , the UK could reduce debt levels easily. EU payments, Overseas Aid, EU Aid contribution, Quangos and EU regulations on business would free up over £300Bn per annum (Ref: Tax Payers Alliance) Etal, Even the Office of Budget Responsibility & HMRC / Treasury acknowledge that the UK economy would grow an additional 1.6-1.9% over the next three years (on top of current growth forecast) and it is in their interests to show as low a figure as possible to support EU membership. So the higher estimates from CBI and Analysts at 3.1-3.7% would be more accurate." Unfortunately more will follow! The fact we are the 7th largest manufacturering economy is a bit of a red herring , a great many of our successful exporters are foreign owned companies who use the UK because of our reletively low labour costs and access to the single market . These firms would relocate in Poland or Romania with lots of EU grants to do so . The commission would do everything it could to make an example of the UK of what will happen should other countries get itchy feet |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 17, 2015 6:48:35 GMT
On the question of trying to separate issues of immigration from membership of the EU "There is no “separate question” – you cannot change or affect any of the other issues whilst remaining in the EU. Cameron has already been told he cannot stop immigration / free movement of people or Asylum and movement of immigrants and asylum seekers around the EU. Indeed UK has been told to prepare for an EU dispersment programme of migrants from Libya and Syria. Equally the EU has during this crisis defacto taken control of immigration at a EU level. So No, within the EU you cannot achieve any of that. Only tailoring around the edges. Cameron has also been told by Junkers that there will be no treaty change or abandonment of Free Movement. So Cameron prepares to rig the Referendum now" True ....as I have mentioned many times on here . We cannot escape the EU's stranglehold on us , so what good is UKIP in British politics ? No ,......NO ......No......is the answer from Brussels. A protest vote perhaps , but nothing more . UKIP have driven the UK political agenda in recent years, as they reflect much of the population on a fundamental issue of democracy. These people are not the loonies as the press and vested interests try to make them out. BUT staying in or out of the EU is much more important and wider than UKIP. It is a cross party and non party issue and even if (when) the Referendum vote is lost the issue will still be alive , irrespective of UKIP. It's about the issue, not UKIP. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eurosceptic-claims-200-tory-mps-now-favour-british-exit-from-eu-9893245.htmlwww.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/06/kate-hoey-labour-has-become-extremely-unpatriotic-partywww.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3123049/Why-Labour-end-EU-love-save-country-KATE-HOEY-Labour-MP-Vauxhall.htmlFor me democracy is more important than immigration an issue which concerns many on here. We will NEVER be able control immigration/our borders and remain in the EU ....This is obvious as the free movement of people is one of the four freedoms which are the very essence of the EU , and fundamental to a United States of Europe. Again Richie put the case very succinctly , a few posts previously. On this we will also have to agree to differ |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 17, 2015 6:58:09 GMT
I am not an economist and don't pretend to be...but I know a man who is! This is part of his response when I brought up the issues on this thread .I thought that I would post them, just as food for thought.I cannot necessarily defend them, but trust my friend. I have asked him for 'references 'to support his assertions and await his response. ( Obviously , and to clarify any accusations of bias , it is no secret that he is clearly a member of UKIP) " The UK financial sector dominates on a global scale not just a UK or EU stage, the only other financial centre comparable is New York. The French and Germans could not compete with London for many years – not even with ECB support. WTO trade rules state that trade barriers cannot be erected against UK and as such this is a non-argument. Competition is another matter. Frankfurt and Paris could try to ‘out compete’ London but a UK free of the EU regulations (which are at the root of the financial crash – and certainly the EU banking crisis) would be unable to compete in more than a couple of areas. The Financial sector is extremely important but not critical. UK is still the 7th largest manufacturing economy in the world, working in many very high tech sectors. The UK economy for all its faults is also very broadly based and very deep providing for a level of stability few others can achieve as is exemplified by our ability to achieve bond rates as low as we do. (Germany’s are better – but not for long once we exit EU and the regs which bind us). True the UK debt to GDP ratio is far too high at 550% GDP. This is the highest in the world as a % of GDP. – But our economic depth and breadth as stated above mitigates this to some extent. The UK does radically need to reduce debt – MASSIVELY. Sovereign debt is a central tool of the EU to tie nations to the EU and dependence upon the ECB / EU. Free of the EU , the UK could reduce debt levels easily. EU payments, Overseas Aid, EU Aid contribution, Quangos and EU regulations on business would free up over £300Bn per annum (Ref: Tax Payers Alliance) Etal, Even the Office of Budget Responsibility & HMRC / Treasury acknowledge that the UK economy would grow an additional 1.6-1.9% over the next three years (on top of current growth forecast) and it is in their interests to show as low a figure as possible to support EU membership. So the higher estimates from CBI and Analysts at 3.1-3.7% would be more accurate." Unfortunately more will follow! The fact we are the 7th largest manufacturering economy is a bit of a red herring , a great many of our successful exporters are foreign owned companies who use the UK because of our reletively low labour costs and access to the single market . These firms would relocate in Poland or Romania with lots of EU grants to do so . The commission would do everything it could to make an example of the UK of what will happen should other countries get itchy feet To me Harry it shows that we have allowed ourselves to be in the stranglehold of the EU masters and have sold our democracy to threats , in the same way as the Greeks. As things move forward there is no guarantee whatsoever that these foreign owned businesses won't relocate to cheaper labour areas on the mainland ,such as Poland. The relocation paid for by our contribution, in the name of supporting the less developed regions of the US of Europe. It makes sense from an EU perspective actually. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2015 7:07:34 GMT
I don't disagree with you . What I am saying is that no matter how good UKIP is at highlighting Europes problems and beaurocratic quagmire we are still in it up to our necks . We are too far down the path to turnaround . We can't afford to do it . If we could , or if there was a simple alternative , then do you honestly think that both major parties wouldn't have already steered us down it ? As for Kate Hoey , she may have growing concerns , but the same could be said for many politicians from both parties . One has to be very politically correct these days and governments are keen to follow their own carefully worded scripts in relation to national identity and patriotism . The problem for UKIP is that now it has brought to everyone's attention what is wrong with EUrope , it's where it goes from here ? It's what direction does it go from here ? Why wouldn't Lbour or Conservative or a Liberal government steer us out of EUrope ? Answer : Because it would mean Economic disaster . |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 17, 2015 7:17:43 GMT
I don't disagree with you . What I am saying is that no matter how good UKIP is at highlighting Europes problems and beaurocratic quagmire we are still in it up to our necks . We are too far down the path to turnaround . We can't afford to do it . If we could , or if there was a simple alternative , then do you honestly think that both major parties wouldn't have already steered us down it ? As for Kate Hoey , she may have growing concerns , but the same could be said for many politicians from both parties . One has to be very politically correct these days and governments are keen to follow their own carefully worded scripts in relation to national identity and patriotism . The problem for UKIP is that now it has brought to everyone's attention what is wrong with EUrope , it's where it goes from here ? It's what direction does it go from here ? Why wouldn't Lbour or Conservative or a Liberal government steer us out of EUrope ? Answer : Because it would mean Economic disaster . As I say Mumf we will have to agree to disagree( By that,,, I know and understand what you are saying exactly). For me I would prefer to regain our democracy and fight for our future .It's uncertain either way , and certainly the Greeks ( part of our country now) are facing financial ruin and they are on the inside .....no guarantees there then. The arguments to stay in may seem logical, but always seem to reduce to the fear factor and threat that 'you cannot control anything , including immigration, you must do as we say'....and that's being on the inside. The argument to leave will not go away. |
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 17, 2015 8:12:30 GMT
There were many vocal voices about how not joining the Euro, would lead to our country being at an economic disadvantage to those countries in the Eurozone. Those voices have been proven very wrong. I see no difference between those voices ten years ago, and the story we're being fed over our need to be in the increasingly federal European Union. The United Sates of Europe, has more benefit for big business, than it does for it's people. We've been sleepwalking into apathy for so long, that we can't see our democratic rights being systematically removed by Europe and their Financial Sector paymasters.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 17, 2015 9:32:51 GMT
Back to the OP.
I believe that some argue that immigration ( in terms of free movement of all EU citizens) is a good thing. I cant see it mysel with the global turmoil and movement of refugees, and dodgy borders in Greece and Italy , who could then issue EU passports. The ONLY way to take back control of our borders is by leaving the EU. This is a fact.
Incidentally not only is membership of the EU being questioned across all political parties , and outside the parties, it is also an issue across Europe.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 17, 2015 10:02:26 GMT
Back to the OP. I believe that some argue that immigration ( in terms of free movement of all EU citizens) is a good thing. I cant see it mysel with the global turmoil and movement of refugees, and dodgy borders in Greece and Italy , who could then issue EU passports. The ONLY way to take back control of our borders is by leaving the EU. This is a fact. Incidentally not only is membership of the EU being questioned across all political parties , and outside the parties, it is also an issue across Europe. I'd rather keep away from the immigration issue, as it's been done to death, and has the potential to hijack the thread. |
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