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Post by stokeharry on May 28, 2015 13:06:01 GMT
By your logic all the Jewish people killed by Nazi Germany should have renounced their faith to avoid being killed. Religion simply does not operate in the way that you, or several others expect it to. If you're a religious person with any integrity then you're not going to be cowardly or hypocrtical, you're going to openly state your beliefs and the reason why you're doing things. Edge, if you would read carefully what I said "If a person believes strongly in something, speak out, stand up to the bullies", Most of us have a line over which we cannot budge. What I am saying there needs to be a bit of reality, common sense and perspective. In some situations different approaches and tact can be used. And yes sometimes even compromise , accommodation and humility , particularly where other people's beliefs are concerned. Pay Caesar what is due to Caesar and pay God what is due to God , or something like that ( I am not particularly religious) Good post
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Post by stokeharry on May 28, 2015 13:09:15 GMT
You completely misunderstand faith then, if their views are that important to them they should stand by them like they have done and face the consequences. Put simply you're wrong. Luckily they don't work from edgepotters "guidelines to live your life" What a depressing hate filled boring sad life that would be
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 13:16:17 GMT
Edgepotter......a lot comes out but, nothing goes in does it? The stance taken by yourselves and others says an awful lot about what type of person you are. Even bigjohnritchie admits he could be viewed as cowardly and hypocritical in certain situations, but thats ok because at least his nose it still straight and he hasn't been killed You've all got these strong moral opinions unless theres a chance those opinions might land you in a bit of trouble. Laughable. You know when you regularly say you...."strongly disagree" with people? I have a vision of mr bean with a red face and steam coming from his ears
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 28, 2015 14:06:12 GMT
Edgepotter......a lot comes out but, nothing goes in does it? The stance taken by yourselves and others says an awful lot about what type of person you are. Even bigjohnritchie admits he could be viewed as cowardly and hypocritical in certain situations, but thats ok because at least his nose it still straight and he hasn't been killed You've all got these strong moral opinions unless theres a chance those opinions might land you in a bit of trouble. Laughable. Edge, Since you mention me, 1 I have principles but I am also a pragmatist. At the moment I am quite comfortable with this position 2 I believe that sometimes it's best to stick to your principles, at others it may be best , most sensible, to let things go. I actually believe that most humans do this, consciously or subconsciously in order to survive. Two (famous ) people who have made a valiant effort to stick to their principles have been Gandhi and Jesus. I am sure that there are others less famous, or beyond my limited knowledge/ memory 3 What I would like your opinion on (NOT TO WIN ANY ARGUMENT, no need , it's only a message board)...In the parable of the Rich Young Ruler , Jesus asked a wealthy man to give up his wealth and follow him. He could not. As I have alluded to in an earlier thread. , if a person considers him or herself to have a conscience, to care for mankind etc, how can we in the affluent West ignore the desperation and poverty of others. Isn't that a bit of choosing the easier principles , and being a bit hypocritical ( I am not accusing YOU of this, I don't know you, I am just asking for your opinion.)It seems to me that hypocrisy and cowardice is something all humans are capable of , left and right, even if they don't aspire to it. Jesus's parable of the plank and speck is also appropriate, for someone who is 'religious'
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Post by bathstoke on May 28, 2015 14:13:13 GMT
I agree with all the points above, yes I think that we should choose what work we take on; but logically it seems that the law now says that you are not allowed to refuse , which I realise is a ridiculous thing to say. About the change of mind, as I understand contract law ,if there is a significant change in terms, it is legally acceptable to withdraw. If the shop owners weren't aware of the full specification at the time of accepting the contract they were in their rights to withdraw (but I admit that I don't know the full circumstances of the case) Like people are correctly saying it's fine to just make up a reason for not wanting to do the job. In your own mind you know why you have refused , the customer probably knows and the "law" would also probably have a suspicion but if you give a false made up reason that is legal then there is no reason why you have to do anything that goes against what you believe in morally. Many people make excuses to not do things and I'd do the same if need be. It's called reality www.tumblr.com/tagged/mr-tourette
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Post by stokeharry on May 28, 2015 15:30:37 GMT
Like people are correctly saying it's fine to just make up a reason for not wanting to do the job. In your own mind you know why you have refused , the customer probably knows and the "law" would also probably have a suspicion but if you give a false made up reason that is legal then there is no reason why you have to do anything that goes against what you believe in morally. Many people make excuses to not do things and I'd do the same if need be. It's called reality www.tumblr.com/tagged/mr-touretteNot opening it : D Unlucky
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Post by boothenboy75 on May 28, 2015 15:54:34 GMT
Edge We will have to agree to disagree then. Is that possible? I very much doubt it, he'll still be stalking you at Christmas.
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Post by edgepotter on May 28, 2015 16:59:45 GMT
The stance taken by yourselves and others says an awful lot about what type of person you are. Even bigjohnritchie admits he could be viewed as cowardly and hypocritical in certain situations, but thats ok because at least his nose it still straight and he hasn't been killed You've all got these strong moral opinions unless theres a chance those opinions might land you in a bit of trouble. Laughable. You know when you regularly say you...."strongly disagree" with people? I have a vision of mr bean with a red face and steam coming from his ears I suppose it is quite an amusing image In reality though I'm perfectly calm so maybe I should just say I disagree
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Post by edgepotter on May 28, 2015 17:11:15 GMT
Edge We will have to agree to disagree then. Is that possible? I very much doubt it, he'll still be stalking you at Christmas. Now now boothen, unlike your fellow UKIPers the 'Chuckle Brothers' (stokeharry and carsplayer) on the balance of things I think that despite me disagreeing with you on various things I do recognise that you're normally prepared to back up what you say by posting links or stats and that there is some thought and logic behind what you believe, I actually think you're an intelligent guy. I'm a little surprised that someone of your intelligence wouldn't acknowledge that followyoudown isn't actually racist and what he said was in a certain context in order to make a point but there we go. It's not like I've got a grudge or anything against you because of it I just thought you were wrong that's all, you don't need to take it to heart as much as you have.
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Post by stokeharry on May 28, 2015 17:28:47 GMT
Edge We will have to agree to disagree then. Is that possible? I very much doubt it, he'll still be stalking you at Christmas. He'll grow up one day and change his interests when he discovers the female form
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Post by edgepotter on May 28, 2015 17:39:36 GMT
The stance taken by yourselves and others says an awful lot about what type of person you are. Even bigjohnritchie admits he could be viewed as cowardly and hypocritical in certain situations, but thats ok because at least his nose it still straight and he hasn't been killed You've all got these strong moral opinions unless theres a chance those opinions might land you in a bit of trouble. Laughable. Edge, Since you mention me, 1 I have principles but I am also a pragmatist. At the moment I am quite comfortable with this position 2 I believe that sometimes it's best to stick to your principles, at others it may be best , most sensible, to let things go. I actually believe that most humans do this, consciously or subconsciously in order to survive. Two (famous ) people who have made a valiant effort to stick to their principles have been Gandhi and Jesus. I am sure that there are others less famous, or beyond my limited knowledge/ memory 3 What I would like your opinion on (NOT TO WIN ANY ARGUMENT, no need , it's only a message board)...In the parable of the Rich Young Ruler , Jesus asked a wealthy man to give up his wealth and follow him. He could not. As I have alluded to in an earlier thread. , if a person considers him or herself to have a conscience, to care for mankind etc, how can we in the affluent West ignore the desperation and poverty of others. Isn't that a bit of choosing the easier principles , and being a bit hypocritical ( I am not accusing YOU of this, I don't know you, I am just asking for your opinion.)It seems to me that hypocrisy and cowardice is something all humans are capable of , left and right, even if they don't aspire to it. Jesus's parable of the plank and speck is also appropriate, for someone who is 'religious' I think you make a valid point bigjohn and the question you ask that I've highlighted in bold is a question that I've asked myself in the past and the answer is a complex one but to give you a short answer our culture is very much an individualistic culture and if people are doing ok for themselves then that's generally enough for some. I can recognise that it can be hard to get by sometimes in this life even when you're just focusing on yourself. For example (and yes I'm generalising here) I've got no doubt that most people are decent people but if you don't really use or claim anything from our system or any other support network then you're not likely to worry about the affects that government cuts will have because it's not going to affect you, you're naturally more inclined to have no problem with voting for a party that makes such cuts and this line of thinking clearly exists amongst some in our society. But if you are disabled, and you know the cuts are going to affect you or someone close to you then you're not likely to vote for the party that is promising to make sweeping cuts are you. Another example is the USA in World War II, despite the atrocities being committed by Nazi Germany etc the USA initially didn't get involved, they were quite happy to not get involved until they were attacked by Japan. If they were doing the decent, morally correct thing to do they would have got involved long before then. People and societies generally seem to only act in their best interests and I don't really understand it. Some people are very good at making justifications to themselves that make them feel a little less guilty about what they do, 'well if that person is doing it I'm going to do it too' and I find that whole line of argument to be bullshit to be honest. You're right when you say hypocrisy and cowardice is something that all humans are capable of and I don't like it at all. If you've seen much of what I've posted on here I'm often challenging other people who seem resigned to say ' that's just the way it is and you can't change it' etc but actually I believe things can be changed and we can be a society that does more to help others less fortunate than ourselves and thats why I take the stances I do and I take a fair bit of flack for being on the left but I'm not deterred by it at all. We should be more tolerant and generous and understanding about the plight of others.
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Post by edgepotter on May 28, 2015 17:41:08 GMT
I very much doubt it, he'll still be stalking you at Christmas. He'll grow up one day and change his interests when he discovers the female form You're mistaken because I'm doing rather well for myself
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 28, 2015 17:50:40 GMT
Thanks for the reply. Like you I have not got the time to reply in depth. I believe that many whom you consider to be on the right also feel passionately about the future of the country, which is why some are arguing to get out of the undemocratic EU and want border controls. Even if any of us do not need support now, our children may need it in the future BUT What I am interested is your opinion on the bit you seem to have missed out...In repetitive of principles hasnt Jesus set the bar so high that a Christian in the West can be accused of hypocrisy, if they "pass by on the other side" in the face of WORLD poverty and exploitation?
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 17:58:59 GMT
He'll grow up one day and change his interests when he discovers the female form You're mistaken because I'm doing rather well for myself Reminds me of the time when I had a paper round ......
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Post by bathstoke on May 28, 2015 18:10:29 GMT
You're mistaken because I'm doing rather well for myself Reminds me of the time when I had a paper round ...... I think e's talking about women & don't give me some bumf mumf about $#@&&!ng housewives with the Advertiser in your back pocket
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Post by stokeharry on May 28, 2015 18:31:29 GMT
He'll grow up one day and change his interests when he discovers the female form You're mistaken because I'm doing rather well for myself Not a chance
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Post by followyoudown on May 28, 2015 18:58:22 GMT
I very much doubt it, he'll still be stalking you at Christmas. He'll grow up one day and change his interests when he discovers the female form Seeing how he responds to you and your mate it's clear he knows how to handle a pair of tits
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Post by stokeharry on May 28, 2015 18:59:31 GMT
He'll grow up one day and change his interests when he discovers the female form Seeing how he responds to you and your mate it's clear he knows how to handle a pair of tits Seeing how he's got his tongue wedged so far up your arse it's clear he like messing around with cocks
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Post by followyoudown on May 28, 2015 19:03:17 GMT
Seeing how he responds to you and your mate it's clear he knows how to handle a pair of tits Seeing how he's got his tongue wedged so far up your arse it's clear he like messing around with cocks That's more comedy gold from Harry, anatomy not a strong point for you old boy.
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Post by boothenboy75 on May 28, 2015 19:05:26 GMT
I very much doubt it, he'll still be stalking you at Christmas. Now now boothen, unlike your fellow UKIPers the 'Chuckle Brothers' (stokeharry and carsplayer) on the balance of things I think that despite me disagreeing with you on various things I do recognise that you're normally prepared to back up what you say by posting links or stats and that there is some thought and logic behind what you believe, I actually think you're an intelligent guy. I'm a little surprised that someone of your intelligence wouldn't acknowledge that followyoudown isn't actually racist and what he said was in a certain context in order to make a point but there we go. It's not like I've got a grudge or anything against you because of it I just thought you were wrong that's all, you don't need to take it to heart as much as you have. Aww thanks, that means a lot. :D
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Post by stokeharry on May 28, 2015 19:06:27 GMT
Seeing how he's got his tongue wedged so far up your arse it's clear he like messing around with cocks That's more comedy gold from Harry, anatomy not a strong point for you old boy. That went straight over your head then FYD Not very quick are you kid
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on May 28, 2015 19:08:04 GMT
He'll grow up one day and change his interests when he discovers the female form Seeing how he responds to you and your mate it's clear he knows how to handle a pair of tits Outstanding!
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Post by boothenboy75 on May 28, 2015 19:25:00 GMT
Edge, Since you mention me, 1 I have principles but I am also a pragmatist. At the moment I am quite comfortable with this position 2 I believe that sometimes it's best to stick to your principles, at others it may be best , most sensible, to let things go. I actually believe that most humans do this, consciously or subconsciously in order to survive. Two (famous ) people who have made a valiant effort to stick to their principles have been Gandhi and Jesus. I am sure that there are others less famous, or beyond my limited knowledge/ memory 3 What I would like your opinion on (NOT TO WIN ANY ARGUMENT, no need , it's only a message board)...In the parable of the Rich Young Ruler , Jesus asked a wealthy man to give up his wealth and follow him. He could not. As I have alluded to in an earlier thread. , if a person considers him or herself to have a conscience, to care for mankind etc, how can we in the affluent West ignore the desperation and poverty of others. Isn't that a bit of choosing the easier principles , and being a bit hypocritical ( I am not accusing YOU of this, I don't know you, I am just asking for your opinion.)It seems to me that hypocrisy and cowardice is something all humans are capable of , left and right, even if they don't aspire to it. Jesus's parable of the plank and speck is also appropriate, for someone who is 'religious' I think you make a valid point bigjohn and the question you ask that I've highlighted in bold is a question that I've asked myself in the past and the answer is a complex one but to give you a short answer our culture is very much an individualistic culture and if people are doing ok for themselves then that's generally enough for some. I can recognise that it can be hard to get by sometimes in this life even when you're just focusing on yourself. For example (and yes I'm generalising here) I've got no doubt that most people are decent people but if you don't really use or claim anything from our system or any other support network then you're not likely to worry about the affects that government cuts will have because it's not going to affect you, you're naturally more inclined to have no problem with voting for a party that makes such cuts and this line of thinking clearly exists amongst some in our society. But if you are disabled, and you know the cuts are going to affect you or someone close to you then you're not likely to vote for the party that is promising to make sweeping cuts are you. Another example is the USA in World War II, despite the atrocities being committed by Nazi Germany etc the USA initially didn't get involved, they were quite happy to not get involved until they were attacked by Japan. If they were doing the decent, morally correct thing to do they would have got involved long before then. People and societies generally seem to only act in their best interests and I don't really understand it. Some people are very good at making justifications to themselves that make them feel a little less guilty about what they do, 'well if that person is doing it I'm going to do it too' and I find that whole line of argument to be bullshit to be honest. You're right when you say hypocrisy and cowardice is something that all humans are capable of and I don't like it at all. If you've seen much of what I've posted on here I'm often challenging other people who seem resigned to say ' that's just the way it is and you can't change it' etc but actually I believe things can be changed and we can be a society that does more to help others less fortunate than ourselves and thats why I take the stances I do and I take a fair bit of flack for being on the left but I'm not deterred by it at all. We should be more tolerant and generous and understanding about the plight of others. Expanding on your US, WWII point. Following that train of thought through, the west should be busy intervening in dozens of countries across the world where despots are busy torturing and killing their people. Wouldn't we also be at war with China, a country with a pretty poor human rights record. Following your principles works to a point, but asking the west, especially the US, to act as the worlds policeman, leads to the fiasco that is Iraq. Sometimes principles shouldn't be forgotten but put to one side whilst reality takes over. Back to John's original post though, I note you seem to have ignored the christian aspect of the question he asked. It's a fair enough point for anyone with principles, and the plank and speck parable in particular.
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Post by bathstoke on May 28, 2015 19:29:42 GMT
We're only making plans for...
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Post by edgepotter on May 28, 2015 21:29:59 GMT
Thanks for the reply. Like you I have not got the time to reply in depth. I believe that many whom you consider to be on the right also feel passionately about the future of the country, which is why some are arguing to get out of the undemocratic EU and want border controls. Even if any of us do not need support now, our children may need it in the future BUT What I am interested is your opinion on the bit you seem to have missed out...In repetitive of principles hasnt Jesus set the bar so high that a Christian in the West can be accused of hypocrisy, if they "pass by on the other side" in the face of WORLD poverty and exploitation? I don't think we should be passing by on the other side though bigjohn. To me it seems like we have got all the resources we need on this planet so that no-one has to suffer, it's just that the resources are not distributed fairly. I really wish that we were trying to solve world poverty and exploitation and in order to do this we need to everyone (or at least most of the people) to be pulling in the same direction and yet we're not. Collectively, the Waltons own over 50% of the Walmart company, and are worth a combined total of $175 billion (as of January 2015).[2] In 2010, six members of the Walton family had the same net worth as either the bottom 28% or 41% of American families combined (depending on how it is counted). Do the Walton family really need all that money, can anyone say they've truly 'earned' that money through sheer hard work? Chomsky says that we in the West have got a lot to answer for when it comes to the state of the third world, we've deliberately held them back and prevented them from doing things for our own personal benefit. An example of this is the textiles industry when we in charge of India, we knew they had better materials and a better process than ourselves so we prevented them from being able to do it just so the British textiles industry could thrive. It's interesting to read the lengths the USA have gone to just to try and keep socialism/communism from becoming a mainstream idea, the atrocities they've had a hand in all because it is in their best interests.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 28, 2015 21:38:07 GMT
Thanks for the reply. Like you I have not got the time to reply in depth. I believe that many whom you consider to be on the right also feel passionately about the future of the country, which is why some are arguing to get out of the undemocratic EU and want border controls. Even if any of us do not need support now, our children may need it in the future BUT What I am interested is your opinion on the bit you seem to have missed out...In repetitive of principles hasnt Jesus set the bar so high that a Christian in the West can be accused of hypocrisy, if they "pass by on the other side" in the face of WORLD poverty and exploitation? I don't think we should be passing by on the other side though bigjohn. To me it seems like we have got all the resources we need on this planet so that no-one has to suffer, it's just that the resources are not distributed fairly. I really wish that we were trying to solve world poverty and exploitation and in order to do this we need to everyone (or at least most of the people) to be pulling in the same and yet we're not. Collectively, the Waltons own over 50% of the Walmart company, and are worth a combined total of $175 billion (as of January 2015).[2] In 2010, six members of the Walton family had the same net worth as either the bottom 28% or 41% of American families combined (depending on how it is counted). Do the Walton family really need all that money, can anyone say they've truly 'earned' that money through sheer hard work? Chomsky says that we in the West have got a lot to answer for when it comes to the state of the third world, we've deliberately held them back and prevented them from doing things for our own personal benefit. An example of this is the textiles industry when we in charge of India, we knew they had better materials and a better process than ourselves so we prevented them from being able to do it just so the British textiles industry could thrive. It's interesting to read the lengths the USA have gone to just to try and keep socialism/communism from becoming a mainstream idea, the atrocities they've had a hand in all because it is in their best interests. Yes, All true commentary, But how should it impact upon individuals' consciences and more importantly behaviour. Shouldn't Christians who are not pragmatic follow the principle in the Rich Young Ruler, or risk being the subject if the parable of the Plank and the speck of sawdust?
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Post by edgepotter on May 28, 2015 21:42:40 GMT
I think you make a valid point bigjohn and the question you ask that I've highlighted in bold is a question that I've asked myself in the past and the answer is a complex one but to give you a short answer our culture is very much an individualistic culture and if people are doing ok for themselves then that's generally enough for some. I can recognise that it can be hard to get by sometimes in this life even when you're just focusing on yourself. For example (and yes I'm generalising here) I've got no doubt that most people are decent people but if you don't really use or claim anything from our system or any other support network then you're not likely to worry about the affects that government cuts will have because it's not going to affect you, you're naturally more inclined to have no problem with voting for a party that makes such cuts and this line of thinking clearly exists amongst some in our society. But if you are disabled, and you know the cuts are going to affect you or someone close to you then you're not likely to vote for the party that is promising to make sweeping cuts are you. Another example is the USA in World War II, despite the atrocities being committed by Nazi Germany etc the USA initially didn't get involved, they were quite happy to not get involved until they were attacked by Japan. If they were doing the decent, morally correct thing to do they would have got involved long before then. People and societies generally seem to only act in their best interests and I don't really understand it. Some people are very good at making justifications to themselves that make them feel a little less guilty about what they do, 'well if that person is doing it I'm going to do it too' and I find that whole line of argument to be bullshit to be honest. You're right when you say hypocrisy and cowardice is something that all humans are capable of and I don't like it at all. If you've seen much of what I've posted on here I'm often challenging other people who seem resigned to say ' that's just the way it is and you can't change it' etc but actually I believe things can be changed and we can be a society that does more to help others less fortunate than ourselves and thats why I take the stances I do and I take a fair bit of flack for being on the left but I'm not deterred by it at all. We should be more tolerant and generous and understanding about the plight of others. Expanding on your US, WWII point. Following that train of thought through, the west should be busy intervening in dozens of countries across the world where despots are busy torturing and killing their people. Wouldn't we also be at war with China, a country with a pretty poor human rights record. Following your principles works to a point, but asking the west, especially the US, to act as the worlds policeman, leads to the fiasco that is Iraq. Sometimes principles shouldn't be forgotten but put to one side whilst reality takes over. Back to John's original post though, I note you seem to have ignored the christian aspect of the question he asked. It's a fair enough point for anyone with principles, and the plank and speck parable in particular. The US have had an influence in making things worse in other countries allowing them to torture and kill their own people because it has been in the best interest of the US to do so, mainly in the interest in preventing socialism from being successful because its highly damaging to a free market capitalist system and it's quite sickening. They've also managed to do this without going to war with other countries in some cases so I'm saying the West should act as the 'worlds policeman' because as you say look what happens in places like Iraq. I would like to see us in the West at least trying to do the right thing though, the sanctions against South Africa had a helping hand in the demise of apartheid. You don't have to go war with countries in order to try and get them to do the right thing.
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Post by edgepotter on May 28, 2015 21:55:59 GMT
I don't think we should be passing by on the other side though bigjohn. To me it seems like we have got all the resources we need on this planet so that no-one has to suffer, it's just that the resources are not distributed fairly. I really wish that we were trying to solve world poverty and exploitation and in order to do this we need to everyone (or at least most of the people) to be pulling in the same and yet we're not. Collectively, the Waltons own over 50% of the Walmart company, and are worth a combined total of $175 billion (as of January 2015).[2] In 2010, six members of the Walton family had the same net worth as either the bottom 28% or 41% of American families combined (depending on how it is counted). Do the Walton family really need all that money, can anyone say they've truly 'earned' that money through sheer hard work? Chomsky says that we in the West have got a lot to answer for when it comes to the state of the third world, we've deliberately held them back and prevented them from doing things for our own personal benefit. An example of this is the textiles industry when we in charge of India, we knew they had better materials and a better process than ourselves so we prevented them from being able to do it just so the British textiles industry could thrive. It's interesting to read the lengths the USA have gone to just to try and keep socialism/communism from becoming a mainstream idea, the atrocities they've had a hand in all because it is in their best interests. Yes, All true commentary, But how should it impact upon individuals' consciences and more importantly behaviour. Shouldn't Christians who are not pragmatic follow the principle in the Rich Young Ruler, or risk being the subject if the parable of the Plank and the speck of sawdust? I understand what you're saying, I'm not wealthy and I haven't got anything to give away but if I did I would. A real life example I'll give you is Richard Branson, I'm sure he does a lot of charity and I'm sure he might be a perfectly nice fella but I honestly don't know how he can sleep at night when he's pumping money into a space tourism program that only the elite in our society will be able so squander their money on, when there are people all over the world dying of hunger etc. I can tell you hand on heart that if I had Bransons wealth I would not be wasting it on space tourism I'd be using to make conditions better for the most disadvantaged people on our planet.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 21:58:00 GMT
We're only making plans for... .......Nigel ?
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Post by partickpotter on May 28, 2015 22:04:09 GMT
Expanding on your US, WWII point. Following that train of thought through, the west should be busy intervening in dozens of countries across the world where despots are busy torturing and killing their people. Wouldn't we also be at war with China, a country with a pretty poor human rights record. Following your principles works to a point, but asking the west, especially the US, to act as the worlds policeman, leads to the fiasco that is Iraq. Sometimes principles shouldn't be forgotten but put to one side whilst reality takes over. Back to John's original post though, I note you seem to have ignored the christian aspect of the question he asked. It's a fair enough point for anyone with principles, and the plank and speck parable in particular. The US have had an influence in making things worse in other countries allowing them to torture and kill their own people because it has been in the best interest of the US to do so, mainly in the interest in preventing socialism from being successful because its highly damaging to a free market capitalist system and it's quite sickening. They've also managed to do this without going to war with other countries in some cases so I'm saying the West should act as the 'worlds policeman' because as you say look what happens in places like Iraq. I would like to see us in the West at least trying to do the right thing though, the sanctions against South Africa had a helping hand in the demise of apartheid. You don't have to go war with countries in order to try and get them to do the right thing. Edge - this is drivel. And before you ask what part - the whole lot if it.
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