|
Post by stokeharry on May 27, 2015 20:52:50 GMT
That's racist I don't pick and chose on colour / creed / sexuality. I made my decissions on their attitude .....ie if one was to start that bartering shit (and a lot did) I wouldn't be working for them and I'd tell them so. ive never believed in buying work while I'm pricing and they are making a decision on me, I'm doing the same with them. actually, if I was to be picky.... police officers, as a whole are some of the worsed customers I've worked for......tight arsed and arrogant as fuck, with the odd exception imo. as for the cake makers, they should have just made any old excuse up How am I talking of this on the Farage thread It's amazing how the subject can drift on here mate I've just been talking about the Normans on an ISIS thread. Clutching at straws and not comparing like for like is rife on Internet message boards. You've gotta laugh
|
|
|
Post by edgepotter on May 27, 2015 21:34:55 GMT
The people saying the cake makers should have made up another excuse are completely wrong.
What's the point in 'believing' in something if you're going to make a story up just so you don't face criticism for your beliefs.
If you want to stand up for your beliefs and not make a cake because it's got a gay slogan on it then you should come right out and say it and face up to any criticism you get.
|
|
|
Post by stokeharry on May 28, 2015 4:42:20 GMT
I agree with all the points above, yes I think that we should choose what work we take on; but logically it seems that the law now says that you are not allowed to refuse , which I realise is a ridiculous thing to say. About the change of mind, as I understand contract law ,if there is a significant change in terms, it is legally acceptable to withdraw. If the shop owners weren't aware of the full specification at the time of accepting the contract they were in their rights to withdraw (but I admit that I don't know the full circumstances of the case) Like people are correctly saying it's fine to just make up a reason for not wanting to do the job. In your own mind you know why you have refused , the customer probably knows and the "law" would also probably have a suspicion but if you give a false made up reason that is legal then there is no reason why you have to do anything that goes against what you believe in morally. Many people make excuses to not do things and I'd do the same if need be. It's called reality
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on May 28, 2015 5:02:41 GMT
I haven't thought this through yet, but perhaps someone can help me out. If a self employed person, say a builder or gardener, had a look at a potential job, but did not fancy doing it ( perhap she just had a bad feeling about the client's ability to pay, perhaps it was not her particular specialism, perhaps it was a bigger job than she thought) could she be compelled to do the job .......logically speaking, in light of the Cake scandal? The reasons you give would be fine for turning down the job (unless you said that they couldn't afford to have it done as they were say black). The baker in Ireland was fined for discrimination. There are various groups of people covered by various discrimination laws in the Uk i.e the elderly, ethenic minorities, the disabled, homosexuals. The problem with these human rights laws is when they come into conflict with one another. From the judges judgement one must assume that the rights of a homosexual to buy a cake trump the rights of someone to follow their religious beliefs. I agree Harry . The law cannot legislate in EVERY situation for a person's beliefs and in every ethical case, just like it's difficult to accommodate 'being offended' every time.In the scenario I mention ,logically if the builder was white the work can be rejected,if she was black it cannot(if the racist card was played).If two people ,one black and one white, went in to get a quote for the job the builder could sue for the stress of not being able to decide what to do. I must stress that I am fully in favour of anti -disrimination legislation, but in some certain situations perhaps a honourable appreciation of other people's views will have to suffice......its about the application of the law and perspective, perhaps it's why the Police are allowed discretion , which some consider to be inconsistency.Half of the football fans in any ground, in light of their abusive/agressive/foul language chanting could posibly be arrested for a breach of the peace in a different context.Eg "is it right to sing the Odemwingie song when 8 year old are present?" Okay , it's football so we know what you are buying into, but some people may have stopped attending because of feeling intimidated (offended). I am just trying to point out the inconsistency of the law, it isn't just certain groups who can 'feel' disrimination against( but clearly some groups HAVE suffered more than others , and need protection)
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 6:01:08 GMT
I don't pick and chose on colour / creed / sexuality. I made my decissions on their attitude .....ie if one was to start that bartering shit (and a lot did) I wouldn't be working for them and I'd tell them so. ive never believed in buying work while I'm pricing and they are making a decision on me, I'm doing the same with them. actually, if I was to be picky.... police officers, as a whole are some of the worsed customers I've worked for......tight arsed and arrogant as fuck, with the odd exception imo. as for the cake makers, they should have just made any old excuse up How am I talking of this on the Farage thread It's amazing how the subject can drift on here mate I've just been talking about the Normans on an ISIS thread. Clutching at straws and not comparing like for like is rife on Internet message boards. You've gotta laugh I think some, deep down actually agree ......they just like to be awkward and clever.
|
|
|
Post by edgepotter on May 28, 2015 6:55:36 GMT
If you believe something then you should always be prepared to stick by your beliefs. No-one should be saying
"I believe in this unless it's going to cause to me a bit of hassle in which case I'll make up a story"
In some parts of the world Christians are killed for simply being a Christian. Do you think that when they are just about to be killed they say "actually I'm not a Christian so don't kill me".
I fundamentally disagree with the bakers but at least they had the backbone to stand up for what they believe in rather than being cowards and making excuses.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on May 28, 2015 7:15:02 GMT
If you believe something then you should always be prepared to stick by your beliefs. No-one should be saying "I believe in this unless it's going to cause to me a bit of hassle in which case I'll make up a story" In some parts of the world Christians are killed for simply being a Christian. Do you think that when they are just about to be killed they say "actually I'm not a Christian so don't kill me". I fundamentally disagree with the bakers but at least they had the backbone to stand up for what they believe in rather than being cowards and making excuses. Recognising what you say, but the full force of the law should not always be applied in every case of offence, sometimes a quieter different common sense approach is sufficient
|
|
|
Post by The Drunken Communist on May 28, 2015 7:19:45 GMT
We've come full circle on this thread. All the usual faces coming together & patting eachother on the back saying how the bakers should have said this, made this excuse, done this etc...
It brings us back to my original question on this thread. If the bakers had been Muslim rather than Christian, would you be saying all these same things? Would you be saying the Muslim bakers have every right to refuse to make the cake on religious grounds/because of their beliefs? Would you all be 'agreeing' with eachother that the Muslims bakers should have made-up some other excuse for not making the cake?
..... Or, would you all be saying "Fucking scumbag terrorist cunts. In this country we treat gays as equals & you have no rights to refuse to make their cake, you're fucking bakers for fuck sake you dirty Muslim cunts. Yet another sign on 'PC gone mad', it's no wonder this country is in such a state when scumbag Muslim bakers can refuse to make cakes on fucking religious grounds 'cos they hate queers".
I think we all know the answer.
|
|
|
Post by edgepotter on May 28, 2015 7:36:34 GMT
We've come full circle on this thread. All the usual faces coming together & patting eachother on the back saying how the bakers should have said this, made this excuse, done this etc... It brings us back to my original question on this thread. If the bakers had been Muslim rather than Christian, would you be saying all these same things? Would you be saying the Muslim bakers have every right to refuse to make the cake on religious grounds/because of their beliefs? Would you all be 'agreeing' with eachother that the Muslims bakers should have made-up some other excuse for not making the cake? ..... Or, would you all be saying "Fucking scumbag terrorist cunts. In this country we treat gays as equals & you have no rights to refuse to make their cake, you're fucking bakers for fuck sake you dirty Muslim cunts. Yet another sign on 'PC gone mad', it's no wonder this country is in such a state when scumbag Muslim bakers can refuse to make cakes on fucking religious grounds 'cos they hate queers". I think we all know the answer. Excellent and accurate point. There is no way the reaction of some (probably all) of those defending the bakers or saying they should have made an excuse would have been the same if it were muslim bakers who had refused to make the cake. Also a quick note for boothenboy, there's some things in the post I've quoted that taken in isolation would be classed as racist but actually the context in which it was said tells anyone with basic comprehension skills that The Drunken Communist is not racist at all, rather he is saying what he is in order to make a point. Just like followyoudown was.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 8:17:25 GMT
It's amazing how the subject can drift on here mate I've just been talking about the Normans on an ISIS thread. Clutching at straws and not comparing like for like is rife on Internet message boards. You've gotta laugh I think some, deep down actually agree ......they just like to be awkward and clever. I think so as well .....and not just concerning this particular thread .
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 8:34:24 GMT
If you believe something then you should always be prepared to stick by your beliefs. No-one should be saying "I believe in this unless it's going to cause to me a bit of hassle in which case I'll make up a story" In some parts of the world Christians are killed for simply being a Christian. Do you think that when they are just about to be killed they say "actually I'm not a Christian so don't kill me". I fundamentally disagree with the bakers but at least they had the backbone to stand up for what they believe in rather than being cowards and making excuses. Bullshit...they should play the game just like everyone else in this world.......people love to play the racist card at any opportunity .....similar with the gay community .......there are as many of those kinds as there are racists / bigots / homophobes.......dog eat dog world , always has been always will be, no matter what fancy spin we like to put on it
|
|
|
Post by edgepotter on May 28, 2015 8:47:39 GMT
If you believe something then you should always be prepared to stick by your beliefs. No-one should be saying "I believe in this unless it's going to cause to me a bit of hassle in which case I'll make up a story" In some parts of the world Christians are killed for simply being a Christian. Do you think that when they are just about to be killed they say "actually I'm not a Christian so don't kill me". I fundamentally disagree with the bakers but at least they had the backbone to stand up for what they believe in rather than being cowards and making excuses. Bullshit...they should play the game just like everyone else in this world.......people love to play the racist card at any opportunity .....similar with the gay community .......there are as many of those kinds as there are racists / bigots / homophobes.......dog eat dog world , always has been always will be, no matter what fancy spin we like to put on it You completely misunderstand faith then, if their views are that important to them they should stand by them like they have done and face the consequences. Put simply you're wrong.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on May 28, 2015 9:02:12 GMT
We've come full circle on this thread. All the usual faces coming together & patting eachother on the back saying how the bakers should have said this, made this excuse, done this etc... It brings us back to my original question on this thread. If the bakers had been Muslim rather than Christian, would you be saying all these same things? Would you be saying the Muslim bakers have every right to refuse to make the cake on religious grounds/because of their beliefs? Would you all be 'agreeing' with eachother that the Muslims bakers should have made-up some other excuse for not making the cake? ..... Or, would you all be saying "Fucking scumbag terrorist cunts. In this country we treat gays as equals & you have no rights to refuse to make their cake, you're fucking bakers for fuck sake you dirty Muslim cunts. Yet another sign on 'PC gone mad', it's no wonder this country is in such a state when scumbag Muslim bakers can refuse to make cakes on fucking religious grounds 'cos they hate queers". I think we all know the answer. I don't know if I am classed as a "usual suspect" , I have kept to the issues, rather than indulged in the personal stuff. For me I would have some sympathy for a Muslim put in a similar position as the Bakers. My points have been more to do with the way the law is applied, discretion and taking a different route on occasions.I have sympathy with the Bakers who held sincere beliefs, and in their eyes feel as though, on this occasion , that they are the victims. In my experience, and it seems to be generally accepted, that the Muslim religion as a generalisation, is anti gay marriage. A sincerely held belief which they share with Orthodox Jews and Evangelical Christians. What some people seem to be saying on this thread , it seems to me, is that to proactively challenge the Muslim stance by the campaigners could open up a can of worms which no-one, the Law nor the Government wants to address. Similar tensions can occur around debates about abortion and euthanasia
|
|
|
Post by stokeharry on May 28, 2015 9:07:04 GMT
I think some, deep down actually agree ......they just like to be awkward and clever. I think so as well .....and not just concerning this particular thread . Correct and very accurate. Some folk on here live in a fantasy world. Truth is no one fights clean these days. The amount of snakes and crafty sly cowardly bastards from the left have made it a dog eat dog culture in Britain today and the only way to stay one step ahead is to play them at their own game. I agree with Fraise about turning work down on principle if you don't want to do the job it's no one else's business and as long as you know the real reasons that's good enough. In a world where the odds are stacked against those that speak out its sensible to protect your income and lifestyle first and foremost and if making excuses allows you turn away certain people then that's the way it is. No explanation is required
|
|
|
Post by edgepotter on May 28, 2015 9:24:23 GMT
I think so as well .....and not just concerning this particular thread . Correct and very accurate. Some folk on here live in a fantasy world. Truth is no one fights clean these days. The amount of snakes and crafty sly cowardly bastards from the left have made it a dog eat dog culture in Britain today and the only way to stay one step ahead is to play them at their own game. I agree with Fraise about turning work down on principle if you don't want to do the job it's no one else's business and as long as you know the real reasons that's good enough. In a world where the odds are stacked against those that speak out its sensible to protect your income and lifestyle first and foremost and if making excuses allows you turn away certain people then that's the way it is. No explanation is required Bullshit.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 9:33:00 GMT
I think so as well .....and not just concerning this particular thread . Correct and very accurate. Some folk on here live in a fantasy world. Truth is no one fights clean these days. The amount of snakes and crafty sly cowardly bastards from the left have made it a dog eat dog culture in Britain today and the only way to stay one step ahead is to play them at their own game. I agree with Fraise about turning work down on principle if you don't want to do the job it's no one else's business and as long as you know the real reasons that's good enough. In a world where the odds are stacked against those that speak out its sensible to protect your income and lifestyle first and foremost and if making excuses allows you turn away certain people then that's the way it is. No explanation is required It's the principle of freedom of choice that is the point here ......it's down to the individual whether you choose to accept the offer of potential work or not , as far as I'm concerned no reason need be given and no explanation should be required ... If no offence has been intended or caused that's it for me .
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on May 28, 2015 9:41:31 GMT
If you believe something then you should always be prepared to stick by your beliefs. No-one should be saying "I believe in this unless it's going to cause to me a bit of hassle in which case I'll make up a story" In some parts of the world Christians are killed for simply being a Christian. Do you think that when they are just about to be killed they say "actually I'm not a Christian so don't kill me". I fundamentally disagree with the bakers but at least they had the backbone to stand up for what they believe in rather than being cowards and making excuses. Edge Again I agree with what you are saying to a degree. If a person strongly believes something , speak out, stand up to the bullies or (perceived) miscreants , but a bit of reality and context has to be considered. It might be okay to ask a ten year old to pick up her litter ( although you could get a mouthful), but I would think twice about asking a well built, worse for wear, Six foot four, agressive drunk to pick up his lager can. Hypocritical ... perhaps Cowardly.... I guess so Sensible.... I am still alive and my nose is fairly straight
|
|
|
Post by edgepotter on May 28, 2015 9:45:35 GMT
If you believe something then you should always be prepared to stick by your beliefs. No-one should be saying "I believe in this unless it's going to cause to me a bit of hassle in which case I'll make up a story" In some parts of the world Christians are killed for simply being a Christian. Do you think that when they are just about to be killed they say "actually I'm not a Christian so don't kill me". I fundamentally disagree with the bakers but at least they had the backbone to stand up for what they believe in rather than being cowards and making excuses. Edge Again I agree with what you are saying to a degree. If a person strongly believes something , speak out, stand up to the bullies or (perceived) miscreants , but a bit of reality and context has to be considered. It might be okay to ask a ten year old to pick up her litter ( although you could get a mouthful), but I would think twice about asking a well built, worse for wear, Six foot four, agressive drunk to pick up his lager can. Hypocritical ... perhaps Cowardly.... I guess so Sensible.... I am still alive and my nose is fairly straight By your logic all the Jewish people killed by Nazi Germany should have renounced their faith to avoid being killed. Religion simply does not operate in the way that you, or several others expect it to. If you're a religious person with any integrity then you're not going to be cowardly or hypocrtical, you're going to openly state your beliefs and the reason why you're doing things.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 10:02:05 GMT
Bullshit...they should play the game just like everyone else in this world.......people love to play the racist card at any opportunity .....similar with the gay community .......there are as many of those kinds as there are racists / bigots / homophobes.......dog eat dog world , always has been always will be, no matter what fancy spin we like to put on it You completely misunderstand faith then, if their views are that important to them they should stand by them like they have done and face the consequences. Put simply you're wrong. Luckily they don't work from edgepotters "guidelines to live your life"
|
|
|
Post by edgepotter on May 28, 2015 10:05:36 GMT
You completely misunderstand faith then, if their views are that important to them they should stand by them like they have done and face the consequences. Put simply you're wrong. Luckily they don't work from edgepotters "guidelines to live your life" No they live by their own guidlines like they have done because they aren't cowardly hypocrites
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on May 28, 2015 10:08:25 GMT
Edge Again I agree with what you are saying to a degree. If a person strongly believes something , speak out, stand up to the bullies or (perceived) miscreants , but a bit of reality and context has to be considered. It might be okay to ask a ten year old to pick up her litter ( although you could get a mouthful), but I would think twice about asking a well built, worse for wear, Six foot four, agressive drunk to pick up his lager can. Hypocritical ... perhaps Cowardly.... I guess so Sensible.... I am still alive and my nose is fairly straight By your logic all the Jewish people killed by Nazi Germany should have renounced their faith to avoid being killed. Religion simply does not operate in the way that you, or several others expect it to. If you're a religious person with any integrity then you're not going to be cowardly or hypocrtical, you're going to openly state your beliefs and the reason why you're doing things. Edge, if you would read carefully what I said "If a person believes strongly in something, speak out, stand up to the bullies", Most of us have a line over which we cannot budge. What I am saying there needs to be a bit of reality, common sense and perspective. In some situations different approaches and tact can be used. And yes sometimes even compromise , accommodation and humility , particularly where other people's beliefs are concerned. Pay Caesar what is due to Caesar and pay God what is due to God , or something like that ( I am not particularly religious)
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 10:12:18 GMT
Luckily they don't work from edgepotters "guidelines to live your life" No they live by their own guidlines like they have done because they aren't cowardly hypocrites Edgepotter......a lot comes out but, nothing goes in does it?
|
|
|
Post by edgepotter on May 28, 2015 10:29:45 GMT
No they live by their own guidlines like they have done because they aren't cowardly hypocrites Edgepotter......a lot comes out but, nothing goes in does it? The stance taken by yourselves and others says an awful lot about what type of person you are. Even bigjohnritchie admits he could be viewed as cowardly and hypocritical in certain situations, but thats ok because at least his nose it still straight and he hasn't been killed You've all got these strong moral opinions unless theres a chance those opinions might land you in a bit of trouble. Laughable.
|
|
|
Post by edgepotter on May 28, 2015 10:36:25 GMT
By your logic all the Jewish people killed by Nazi Germany should have renounced their faith to avoid being killed. Religion simply does not operate in the way that you, or several others expect it to. If you're a religious person with any integrity then you're not going to be cowardly or hypocrtical, you're going to openly state your beliefs and the reason why you're doing things. Edge, if you would read carefully what I said "If a person believes strongly in something, speak out, stand up to the bullies", Most of us have a line over which we cannot budge. What I am saying there needs to be a bit of reality, common sense and perspective. In some situations different approaches and tact can be used. And yes sometimes even compromise , accommodation and humility , particularly where other people's beliefs are concerned. Pay Caesar what is due to Caesar and pay God what is due to God , or something like that ( I am not particularly religious) I strongly disagree. If you believe in something then you believe in it, you shouldn't be able to pick and choose when you apply those beliefs and you should be consistent at all times. That's exactly why the bakers chose the course of action they did, to do anything else would mean they are a hypocrite and a liar. Their faith expects that they don't be cowards, hypocrites or liars, its how religion works.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on May 28, 2015 11:02:48 GMT
Yes I respect the bakers for what they did. On SOME issues I believe you have to make stand. This was one of the issues for the bakers. I am talking about the application of the law, the accommodation of the law and the consequences. In yhis case the bakers should not have had to endure the consequences of their stance. I've tried to make this clear several times. Similarly I would have sympathy for those, be they Muslims, Jews , Christians or Humanists who mean no harm but suffer disproportionate consequencies for their beliefs. In this case I think the Law was manipulated and did them a mis-service. We all have principles and limits to what we deem acceptable.In the world in which we live, and which I enjoy, humans tend to ignore/turn a blind eye to theie principles in order to survive. Eg logically, taking your argument about hypocrisy, for some people; we should not be attending football matches because it is headed by a corrupt regime, we should not spend money on luxury goods (any non- essentials) whilst people are starving, we should have nothing to do with multi-nationals as they are corrupt, we should not be using banks etc, etc, .......and we should be pro-actively campaigning to change these things. Anything less is hypocrisy. See the parable of Jesus and the Rich Young Ruler
|
|
|
Post by edgepotter on May 28, 2015 11:14:50 GMT
Yes I respect the bakers for what they did. On SOME issues I believe you have to make stand. This was one of the issues for the bakers. I am talking about the application of the law, the accommodation of the law and the consequences. In yhis case the bakers should not have had to endure the consequences of their stance. I've tried to make this clear several times. Similarly I would have sympathy for those, be they Muslims, Jews , Christians or Humanists who mean no harm but suffer disproportionate consequencies for their beliefs. In this case I think the Law was manipulated and did them a mis-service. We all have principles and limits to what we deem acceptable.In the world in which we live, and which I enjoy, humans tend to ignore/turn a blind eye to theie principles in order to survive. Eg logically, taking your argument about hypocrisy, for some people; we should not be attending football matches because it is headed by a corrupt regime, we should not spend money on luxury goods (any non- essentials) whilst people are starving, we should have nothing to do with multi-nationals as they are corrupt, we should not be using banks etc, etc, .......and we should be pro-actively campaigning to change these things. Anything less is hypocrisy. See the parable of Jesus and the Rich Young Ruler Of course they should have had to endure the consequences, they've made a decision/choice which has been deemed to go against the laws of our society. I don't think you can make the claim that they didn't mean no harm either. The marker has been set and will be applied to anyone who chooses to make the same decision/choice. Can't say fairer than that can we.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on May 28, 2015 11:32:27 GMT
Edge
We will have to agree to disagree then. Is that possible?
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on May 28, 2015 11:33:08 GMT
.
|
|
|
Post by edgepotter on May 28, 2015 11:34:21 GMT
Edge We will have to agree to disagree then. Is that possible? Of course sir. You'd gone off on a tangent in your last post anyway, I've been debating with yourself and others about whether or not they should have made up a different excuse and you've answered that question by saying they were right to take the stand they did which is what I was driving at. The application of the law is a different matter entirely.
|
|
|
Post by stokeharry on May 28, 2015 13:04:22 GMT
Correct and very accurate. Some folk on here live in a fantasy world. Truth is no one fights clean these days. The amount of snakes and crafty sly cowardly bastards from the left have made it a dog eat dog culture in Britain today and the only way to stay one step ahead is to play them at their own game. I agree with Fraise about turning work down on principle if you don't want to do the job it's no one else's business and as long as you know the real reasons that's good enough. In a world where the odds are stacked against those that speak out its sensible to protect your income and lifestyle first and foremost and if making excuses allows you turn away certain people then that's the way it is. No explanation is required Bullshit. Everything I say is fact everything you say is bullshit
|
|