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Post by mumf on Feb 26, 2016 0:36:24 GMT
I agree with most of what you say there Ric,bug for me democracy is something that should nor be given away ,so is more important than any of the other issues, to be able to decide for yourself. For me, of course we can survive on our own. In fact we need to start to get a bit more self confidence and entrepreneurship, in a truly global sense. The EU is quickly seeming like an old hat out of date inward looking institution. What is the future for the EU, withot our membership? Are all the citizens really united behind this self serving body, which is extending it's powers beyond trade? The other thing which no one seems to have touched on , is that if we vote out on the back of a strong anti immigration mandate then how many immigrants will the new government then allow in ? What will THEY decide on our behalf ? This won't be a democratic decision by the people ...this will be done by our MPs and government lobbyists . Having said all that , you are quite right ...we do then need to expand our horizons and invest in our young people to teach them the skills that we have previously imported from abroad on the cheap . We are talking about Doctors , nurses , engineers , teachers etc. Etc . it's no good retaining your own democracy if you then fail to address the issues of the last 40 years . We will have to look inwards to our youth for all this to work . The problem is that I don't think that we have thought about this enough or appreciated the vast cost of re-energising our own workforce into a dynamic entity capable of taking on and competing with the rest of the world . We need to hit the ground running and make the most of this grand new opportunity that potentially could set us apart from the rest of Europe and all for the right reasons ....
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 26, 2016 1:47:08 GMT
Democracy is the real reason that we should leave the EU, not immigration. I wish that the Labour party would grasp this, not only do we need to leave, we need to reform the UK Parliamentary voting system, which is outdated and keeps the self interested powerful in control and likewise the ridiculous House of Lords BJR, I want to stay in Europe/EU I really do. That may sway my vote June. But what we have in the EU is so fucked up that I don't think it's recoverable. It's undemocratic, national interests are paramount. The whole thing needs to be thrown away and started again. The objective of the EU is greater integration. It should be to improve the lot of the people of Europe surely? It hit home after the last Euro elections.There was a massive swing to anti-EU parties. The reaction should have been to listen to the people and put a brake on the integration project - at least in the short term until the people were convinced. The actual reaction was to use the election as an excuse to expedite the integration project. If the EU had the best interests of it's people as it's raison d'être, then why would it be pushing TTIP?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2016 22:19:53 GMT
I have never been in any doubt that we face a stark choice of independent Britain or Federal European Super State run by the incumbent German Chancellor.
The question is how many British people would prefer this to the idiots we have running Britain now and more to the point the incoming idiots in the form of Boris and Jeremy who are expected to run our future.
I wonder how many would like the option of becoming the 51st state of America or a province of China or indeed a satellite of Russia.
Some of you may shudder at the thought, however will we ever be independent again, while we are obliged by NATO and dependant on America for our Nuclear deterrent and other arms.
Is an Out Vote a cry of fear from our politicians who fear the relevance of their position becoming increasingly diminished with a natural conclusion of dissolving any member state parliament and a centralised European Monster handing out dictates and conformity to a zombie like people.
While member states can chose which bits of a European Law they want , then there can be no democracy in Europe as surely the fundamental thing with democracy is equality 1 man/woman 1 vote must make all the peoples of a united Europe share a common destiny and a common power, anything less is a committee with lesser states being black balled by self appointed governors.
It is the reason I want out as Europe is a different thing to different countries where I believe it was meant to be a level playing field for it's people, not a barter market for overlords.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 8, 2016 21:35:13 GMT
In this country we have a pretence of democracy. Churchill said that democracy was the worst system known to man , except for all the others, or something like that. People argue that the two party system leads to strong government. It does , but it also serves the self interest of career politicians, with no genuine interest in what ordinary people want. There is some collusion in that as long as most of us are 'okay' we should be grateful for what we have got ....and we are threatened ' be careful, things could be worse' In theory a party could come second to different parties, in every seat in the country, and therefore get no seats. In reality they could have more votes than any other party, in fact they could have almost as many votes as all the other parties combined but no seats. That's never right. In reality we have a dictatorship by the British Etonian elite, shared by the two main parties. Any thoughts?
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Post by salopstick on Mar 8, 2016 21:42:06 GMT
If we leave the EU we will be able to negotiate a deal with the EU that suits us.
They need us regardless of Euro membership
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Democracy
Mar 8, 2016 22:05:55 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 8, 2016 22:05:55 GMT
If we leave the EU we will be able to negotiate a deal with the EU that suits us. They need us regardless of Euro membership Salop, I agree entirely, but if we left the EU we would then have to agitate for genuine democracy within the UK. The two party system in reality is a self interest collusion of those who like to talk a good talk but have their own personal interests at heart (In the main- of course there are some genuine MPs who try to do their best within the system ). The devolution arrangement whereby the Scots can vote on English /UK matters but also have their own jurisdiction is another anomaly which needs reform. The House of Lords is a joke in the modern era. Internet technology should enable more participation and democracy if we genuinely wanted (or were allowed) it or had a will for it... a wide range of views are able to be canvassed quite simply with some attention given to on line security
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Post by desman2 on Mar 8, 2016 22:26:24 GMT
If we leave the EU we will be able to negotiate a deal with the EU that suits us. They need us regardless of Euro membership Salop, I agree entirely, but if we left the EU we would then have to agitate for genuine democracy within the UK. The two party system in reality is a self interest collusion of those who like to talk a good talk but have their own personal interests at heart (In the main- of course there are some genuine MPs who try to do their best within the system ). The devolution arrangement whereby the Scots can vote on English /UK matters but also have their own jurisdiction is another anomaly which needs reform. The House of Lords is a joke in the modern era. Internet technology should enable more participation and democracy if we genuinely wanted (or were allowed) it or had a will for it... a wide range of views are able to be canvassed quite simply with some attention given to on line security I think things would change if we got out. I think people wont be to pleased to see the same old rubbish being spouted. They will want something new. Also its going to be interesting to see how the in mob in parliament promote themselves as a referendum defeat will be a message that they are against the people. Cameron will be finished.
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Post by desman2 on Mar 8, 2016 22:48:06 GMT
Salop, I agree entirely, but if we left the EU we would then have to agitate for genuine democracy within the UK. The two party system in reality is a self interest collusion of those who like to talk a good talk but have their own personal interests at heart (In the main- of course there are some genuine MPs who try to do their best within the system ). The devolution arrangement whereby the Scots can vote on English /UK matters but also have their own jurisdiction is another anomaly which needs reform. The House of Lords is a joke in the modern era. Internet technology should enable more participation and democracy if we genuinely wanted (or were allowed) it or had a will for it... a wide range of views are able to be canvassed quite simply with some attention given to on line security I think things would change if we got out. I think people wont be to pleased to see the same old rubbish being spouted. They will want something new. Also its going to be interesting to see how the in mob in parliament promote themselves as a referendum defeat will be a message that they are against the people. Cameron will be finished.
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Democracy
May 21, 2016 8:27:55 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 21, 2016 8:27:55 GMT
The power of the Internet and social media, should eventually change democracy, Change.org is worth looking at, if only as a means to get an issue on the table . It may only stimulate a debate at the moment , but surely it is a means by which like minded people can collaborate easily, with a fairly equal voice, little censorship and bureaucracy and cheaply I wonder if change.org will eventually be closed down? www.change.org/...................... An email from change.org; The internet is putting more political power in your hands. This week Emma took on the BBC and won. When 11,000 popular recipes were threatened with deletion, she started a petition which went viral, hit the headlines and forced a rethink. And she's not the only Change.org user who's been having a major impact. In London, Tia, Melley, Jonathan and Jordan are fighting to protect youth services. Many of the mayoral candidates met with them during the campaign, and now newly elected Mayor of London Sadiq Khan has promised to explore what he can do for London's youth services. They’ll be meeting the Mayor again in his first 100 days in office to discuss the next steps for their campaign. In Westminster, MPs recently debated Laura’s powerful petition about bowel cancer care which was presented formally to Parliament sparking more interest in her campaign. And Kevin Smith, who started a campaign about B&Q and the Living Wage, saw his petition become the centre of a media frenzy and then be debated by MPs. 140,000 people backed his campaign and now B&Q has listened and is offering its staff more compensation. These campaigns show that politicians, businesses and journalists are listening to petitions on Change.org. So if there’s something you want to change, start a petition today. Thank you, Tom & the UK Change.org Team Start a petition
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Democracy
May 21, 2016 8:48:24 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 21, 2016 8:48:24 GMT
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Post by starkiller on May 21, 2016 9:48:57 GMT
I don't think that the reality of the extent of our integration into the EU may not have dawned upon the majority of UK citizens. Under the EU we are no longer countries but " member states". I wonder how many of us are aware of the role and power of Martin Schulz,Donald Tusk and Jean Claude Juncker, as well as the current role of Latvia.Add Angela Merkel and François Hollande into the equation and I don't believe that this powerful elite has a strong enough connection with the electorate. I wonder what the future holds for democracy in the ' United States of Europe ' Not heard of European elections? You are taking the piss, surely? Those that make the decisions are not elected. A European election gives someone a seat in a hot-air forum, with inflated gravy-train wage, plus expenses. A vote to remain on 23rd June is an active vote for totalitarian dictatorship. Wise up. I throw the words 'totalitarian dictatorship' around with aplomb here because that's exactly what the EU is. Look up the terms. And before the luvvies and propaganda merchants come out and start talking about 'Europe', this is not a vote to leave Europe, this is about leaving the fundamentally undemocratic EU. And neither will the UK be towed out into the middle of the Atlantic away from Europe. Also, the biggest and most powerful country in Europe is not in the EU.
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Post by salopstick on May 21, 2016 9:58:50 GMT
I hope to god the country says leave
I'm really struggling to think of reasons to stay
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Democracy
May 21, 2016 12:18:47 GMT
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Post by salopstick on May 21, 2016 12:18:47 GMT
I also believe the country will waste the opportunity
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 21, 2016 12:25:44 GMT
I also believe the country will waste the opportunity I agree Salop. It has always been about power control and politics, not trade..... FCO 30/1048: Heath knew it was treason www.eutruth.org.uk/fco30.htmlThis classified government document dated April 1971 remained secret until it was released under the 30 year rule. It proves Heath's government knew the 1972 EEC Treaty would lead to the loss of sovereignty, and was therefore treason. They had a stunningly accurate picture of the EU, which never was the EEC (an Economic Community), expecting Britain to be abolished after the turn of the century. The authors, all civil servants or ministers, are very pro EU, their intent is clearly to conceal the loss of sovereignty. But they understood perfectly it would all be abolished. In public Heath's government all lied the treaty would not affect our sovereignty. This includes Douglas Hurd, still an active senior Conservative, who is also both a liar and a traitor, a point we put to him at the Conservative Conference in Blackpool. He assured us his connections in the legal profession would ensure he was never convicted. Here are just a few of the damning sentences: Parliament controlled 11. Membership of the Communities will involve us in extensive limitations upon our freedom of action. For the first time. Parliament is binding its successors. Increasing loss of sovereignty The loss of external sovereignty will however increase as the Community develops, according to the intention of the preamble to the Treaty of Rome "to establish the foundations of an even closer union among the European peoples ". Small threats to sovereignty, like Burgess, Blunt and Maclean's selling secrets to the Russians, attract 30 year jail sentences. The penalty for actually loosing even small parts of it until 1998 was "to hang by the neck until dead." King Charles 1st was executed for treason that was, by comparison, relatively minor. Lord Haw Haw (“Germany Calling” - William Joyce) was hanged for treason on 3rd January 1946. His efforts on behalf of Germany were tiny by comparison with Edward Heath’s. Our law subservient 12. (ii) The power of the European Court to consider the extent to which a UK statute is compatible with Community Law will indirectly involve an innovation for us, as the European Court's decisions will be binding on our courts which might then have to rule on the validity or applicability of the United Kingdom statute. The writ of a foreign power is not allowed under the British Constitution, which Heath was breaking. Predicting monetary and military union 18..but it will be in the British interest after accession to encourage the development of the Community toward an effectively harmonised economic, fiscal and monetary system and a fairly closely coordinated and consistent foreign and defence policy. If it came to do so then essential aspects of sovereignty both internal and external would indeed increasingly be transferred to the Community itself. No withdrawal, sovereignty diminished 22. Even with the most dramatic development of the Community the major member states can hardly lose the "last resort" ability to withdraw in much less than three decades. The Community's development could produce before then a period in which the political practicability of withdrawal was doubtful. If the point should ever be reached at which inability to renounce the Treaty (and with it the degeneration of the national institutions which could opt for such a policy) was clear, then sovereignty, external, parliamentary and practical would indeed be diminished. Disinformation After entry there would be a major responsibility on HMG and on all political parties not to exacerbate public concern by attributing unpopular measures or unfavourable economic developments to the remote and unmanageable workings of the Community. Transfer of the Executive 24 (ii) The transfer of major executive responsibilities to the bureaucratic Commission in Brussels will exacerbate popular feeling of alienation from government. Erosion of sovereignty 24 (v) ...The more the Community is developed ... the more Parliamentary sovereignty will be eroded. ...The right ... to withdraw will remain for a very considerable time. ...The sovereignty of the State will surely remain unchallenged for this century at least. The EU Bureaucracy will rule 25. The impact of entry upon sovereignty is closely related to the blurring of distinctions between domestic political and foreign affairs, to the greater political responsibility of the bureaucracy of the Community and the lack of effective democratic control. The writers understanding of the future of the EU was bang on. They wanted the bureaucracy to take over from the democracy. The loss of sovereignty was desirable for them, legally traitors working deep inside our government. With thanks to David Barnby. Who got the original documents. David Noakes The full document; www.acasefortreason.co.uk/fco-30-1048/
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on May 21, 2016 12:27:52 GMT
The fascinating theme through this thread is that some people are of the opinion that we live in a democracy. Deluded isn't the word......
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Democracy
May 21, 2016 12:37:32 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 21, 2016 12:37:32 GMT
The fascinating theme through this thread is that some people are of the opinion that we live in a democracy. Deluded isn't the word...... I don't think that you are right there Huddy, to be honest. There is much much wrong with our so called democracy, and I have argued against it many times, just on issues such as the voting systems /PR, House of Lords, the collusion of the political class, etc. There is much to challenge. I think that people on the thread have chosen to focus upon the fundamentally intentionally anti democratic institution of the EU. This is the current main issue. It certainly does not mean that posters are content or unaware of the failings of the UK system. Why add to an imperfect system with a much more remote, wasteful and unyieldly layer?
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Post by starkiller on May 21, 2016 12:52:34 GMT
The fascinating theme through this thread is that some people are of the opinion that we live in a democracy. Deluded isn't the word...... You are correct, there is no democracy, but untying ourselves from larger forms of control has to be a goal to aim for. The dangers of letting it go the other way are there to see, for those that have the eyes to...
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Democracy
May 21, 2016 13:34:56 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2016 13:34:56 GMT
The fascinating theme through this thread is that some people are of the opinion that we live in a democracy. Deluded isn't the word...... Well, it's certainly not perfect but, ordinary people being able to vote out an unpopular government is preferrable democracy compared to the European unions idea of rule with no one to answer to, wouldn't you say? After leaving there would be a great chance to change politics in Britain to finally change for the better. Dare I say inspire, and be the envy of the rest of the world.
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Post by salopstick on May 21, 2016 13:38:07 GMT
The fascinating theme through this thread is that some people are of the opinion that we live in a democracy. Deluded isn't the word...... You talk about change. change can happen in this country is if we are free to make that change. being in the EU locks us and change cannot be brought about Politicians are so scared of change and that is why most of them want to remain in the EU Corbyn should sacrifice his leadership for the good of the working class and go back to his true principles and belief and ask all labour supporters to vote out
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on May 21, 2016 14:18:29 GMT
The fascinating theme through this thread is that some people are of the opinion that we live in a democracy. Deluded isn't the word...... You talk about change. change can happen in this country is if we are free to make that change. being in the EU locks us and change cannot be brought about Politicians are so scared of change and that is why most of them want to remain in the EU Corbyn should sacrifice his leadership for the good of the working class and go back to his true principles and belief and ask all labour supporters to vote out Coming out of the EU will not make a scrap of difference.
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Post by trentvale68 on May 21, 2016 14:21:00 GMT
The ever strengthening EU is halfway towards the agenda of the One World Government.
Democracy is a sham; everything is decided behind closed doors, the corporations & international bankers are the ones pulling the strings. Governments are selected to govern more to the left or the right according to which best suits the agenda of the cabal.
I'll say it again, if 75% of the country votes leave on June 23rd, I guarantee the next day we will still be in!
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Post by trentvale68 on May 21, 2016 14:29:26 GMT
The Bilderberg meetings are something we should all be concerned about
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Post by harryburrows on May 21, 2016 14:31:55 GMT
The fascinating theme through this thread is that some people are of the opinion that we live in a democracy. Deluded isn't the word...... Well, it's certainly not perfect but, ordinary people being able to vote out an unpopular government is preferrable democracy compared to the European unions idea of rule with no one to answer to, wouldn't you say? After leaving there would be a great chance to change politics in Britain to finally change for the better. Dare I say inspire, and be the envy of the rest of the world. The problem being that nobody is looking forward , what will th Eu look like in 10 or 20 years ? . A fully integrated super state including 78 million Turkish Muslims with a porous external border into the Middle East . How many more former Russian territories coming in under the NATO umbrella ? It's a very uncertain future in the EU , as well as out of it
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Post by salopstick on May 21, 2016 14:40:53 GMT
You talk about change. change can happen in this country is if we are free to make that change. being in the EU locks us and change cannot be brought about Politicians are so scared of change and that is why most of them want to remain in the EU Corbyn should sacrifice his leadership for the good of the working class and go back to his true principles and belief and ask all labour supporters to vote out Coming out of the EU will not make a scrap of difference. how can you say that Being in the EU binds us to treaties etc that prevent change Being out frees us of that beaurocratic burden. Better out than in
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Post by trentvale68 on May 21, 2016 14:43:22 GMT
I genuinely believe in 20 years time, we'll all be in living in a totalitarian state under increased surveillance, the stuff of nightmares. There will be zero provision for the elderly, disabled and unemployed. What you see now is just the tip. The elites will of course keep themselves secure in gated communities. ISIS and the like are the gift that keeps on giving for them, so further laws can be passed for 'our safety'
Society & the world is going down the pan faster & faster. There is no golden future, only for the 1% club.
The bonus is that one day, humanity will of course go extinct and in the process make the natural world a better place
Just a quick walk around Hanley is enough to see how things are crumbling; 20 years ago there wasn't the amount of rough sleepers you see today. Many of us could, with a few bad turns of luck, end up in similar situations.
Its never been such a fuck you, im alright jack society as today.
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Post by lawrieleslie on May 21, 2016 14:51:01 GMT
Poll Station are running a live online poll on in/ out this is the current state of it and the %ages have been pretty constant for the last 3 days to my knowledge. Look at the number who have taken part it's currently over 54,000. Most snap shot polls are around 1500-2000, so IMO, this is much more representative of current feelings. Cameron cannot ignore this or he is a fool and he should be preparing for a massive defeat on June 23rd. Attachment Deleted
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Democracy
May 21, 2016 14:52:35 GMT
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Post by salopstick on May 21, 2016 14:52:35 GMT
Poll Station are running a live online poll on in/ out this is the current state of it and the %ages have been pretty constant for the last 3 days to my knowledge. Look at the number who have taken part it's currently over 54,000. Most snap shot polls are around 1500-2000, so IMO, this is much more representative of current feelings. Cameron cannot ignore this or he is a fool and he should be preparing for a massive defeat on June 23rd. View Attachmenti hope this true
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Post by lawrieleslie on May 21, 2016 14:59:37 GMT
Poll Station are running a live online poll on in/ out this is the current state of it and the %ages have been pretty constant for the last 3 days to my knowledge. Look at the number who have taken part it's currently over 54,000. Most snap shot polls are around 1500-2000, so IMO, this is much more representative of current feelings. Cameron cannot ignore this or he is a fool and he should be preparing for a massive defeat on June 23rd. View Attachmenti hope this true Most polls can be taken with a pinch of salt Al. But this one, because of the number of votes, cannot be ignored. As you say, if it is true of course. If you go to the website you will see that the poll started end of March and there has been an ever increasing divide between the in/ out votes. I'm definitely keeping an eye on this poll. Attachment Deleted
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Democracy
May 21, 2016 17:29:10 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 21, 2016 17:29:10 GMT
The fascinating theme through this thread is that some people are of the opinion that we live in a democracy. Deluded isn't the word...... You talk about change. change can happen in this country is if we are free to make that change. being in the EU locks us and change cannot be brought about Politicians are so scared of change and that is why most of them want to remain in the EU Corbyn should sacrifice his leadership for the good of the working class and go back to his true principles and belief and ask all labour supporters to vote out I agree entirely Salop. If he did this , in the right way,he would gain immeasurable admiration and may even go down in history as a major player. He could re-energise the Labour grassroots now that the initial euphoria of his initial election has passed. Of course he would be absolutely slaughtered by the media and the Tory opponents.Also the greatest challenge would be the impossible task of taking the shadow cabinet / Labour MPs with him (of course this would not happen ) but I believe that he actually could be the key to winning the Brexit argument. At least he could then be free to promote something he actually believes in with enthusiasm. He has been let down by his party seniors and they will come to regret it Wishful thinking and will never happen of course.
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Post by salopstick on May 21, 2016 17:35:04 GMT
You talk about change. change can happen in this country is if we are free to make that change. being in the EU locks us and change cannot be brought about Politicians are so scared of change and that is why most of them want to remain in the EU Corbyn should sacrifice his leadership for the good of the working class and go back to his true principles and belief and ask all labour supporters to vote out I agree entirely Salop. If he did this , in the right way,he would gain immeasurable admiration and may even go down in history as a major player. He could re-energise the Labour grassroots now that the initial euphoria of his initial election has passed. Of course he would be absolutely slaughtered by the media and the Tory opponents.Also the greatest challenge would be the impossible task of taking the shadow cabinet / Labour MPs with him (of course this would not happen ) but I believe that he actually could be the key to winning the Brexit argument. At least he could then be free to promote something he actually believes in with enthusiasm. He has been let down by his party seniors and they will come to regret it Wishful thinking and will never happen of course. do it in a week with no time for a coup He can resign with some honour knowing he's made a difference But in reality he is the same self serving as most politicians
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