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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 12:28:49 GMT
So we lie down and bow to pressure? Even though we don't agree with it and even though it's not compatible with Britsh values we bend over and take it out of fear of being called racist? It might be how they do things but thats not my way and it isnt the British way. That's exactly the kind of attitude that stops sensible debate regarding important matters such as immigration. I aren't racist in the slightest but if people think I am that's their problem not mine but I won't be bullied into silence out of fear. As far as i'm concerned the choice is easy. Either fit in or fuck off The only way you can realistically stop it is by banning Islam and that is very dangerous territory. If you ban Islam then you have to ban all other religions. Bring it on.....Do eet if that's what it takes .
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Post by edgepotter on May 4, 2015 12:32:05 GMT
I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's part of their culture. You can't stop them like you say you can. As you've said if they refuse and you tell them to stay away then what happens? The answer is that you alienate your Islamic followers and you get labelled anti-islamist and racist. This type of behaviour is unacceptable in modern Britain regardless of religion. For a politician to happily stand in front of that audience is lending their support to that archaic behaviour. It fine saying that it's part of their culture - but it's not part of our culture is it? Don't people need to make allowances for that they're living in the 21st century UK rather than in Saudi or Pakistan? Same question to you, how do you propose we stop it?
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Post by ukcstokie on May 4, 2015 12:35:25 GMT
So we lie down and bow to pressure? Even though we don't agree with it and even though it's not compatible with Britsh values we bend over and take it out of fear of being called racist? It might be how they do things but thats not my way and it isnt the British way. That's exactly the kind of attitude that stops sensible debate regarding important matters such as immigration. I aren't racist in the slightest but if people think I am that's their problem not mine but I won't be bullied into silence out of fear. As far as i'm concerned the choice is easy. Either fit in or fuck off The only way you can realistically stop it is by banning Islam and that is very dangerous territory. If you ban Islam then you have to ban all other religions. No. There are minimum levels of behaviour that we expect in this country. If you don't abide by them then you're not welcome here. There's plenty of moderate sensible Muslims who easily fit into the norms. Generally other religions don't struggle either. Unfortunately we've taken the approach of bending over backwards as a society to accommodate (just see how the public are served up Halal meat without being told).
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Post by edgepotter on May 4, 2015 12:38:31 GMT
The only way you can realistically stop it is by banning Islam and that is very dangerous territory. If you ban Islam then you have to ban all other religions. I don't agree. The message should be "you are welcome at the rally but special treatment will not be given especially if it contradicts British values. You aren't special and we won't put your beliefs above ours . You aren't more important than us. We are the same . We believe in equality and if you don't agree you have two choices. Either accept it or if you can't accept it stay away" If you do that you will be anti-islamist.
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Post by stokeharry on May 4, 2015 12:39:45 GMT
The only way you can realistically stop it is by banning Islam and that is very dangerous territory. If you ban Islam then you have to ban all other religions. No. There are minimum levels of behaviour that we expect in this country. If you don't abide by them then you're not welcome here. There's plenty of moderate sensible Muslims who easily fit into the norms. Generally other religions don't struggle either. Unfortunately we've taken the approach of bending over backwards as a society to accommodate (just see how the public are served up Halal meat without being told). At the end of the day it's our country. Some people don't like that phrase because they think it sounds unwelcoming etc - tough shit The majority shouldn't be expected to change in order to suit the minority. They are the ones that should be fitting in not the other way around. Anyone is welcome in my house as long as they treat me my family and my home with respect. The minute they start expecting me to put myself out and go against what I believe just to suit them is the minute I show them the door. The message should be that anyone is welcome as long as they abide by the rules
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Post by stokeharry on May 4, 2015 12:40:39 GMT
I don't agree. The message should be "you are welcome at the rally but special treatment will not be given especially if it contradicts British values. You aren't special and we won't put your beliefs above ours . You aren't more important than us. We are the same . We believe in equality and if you don't agree you have two choices. Either accept it or if you can't accept it stay away" If you do that you will be anti-islamist. No it wouldn't . That's your opinion and my opinion differs from yours It would be common sense. Nothing more nothing less Not giving Islam special treatment is not anti - islamic
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Post by ukcstokie on May 4, 2015 12:41:26 GMT
This type of behaviour is unacceptable in modern Britain regardless of religion. For a politician to happily stand in front of that audience is lending their support to that archaic behaviour. It fine saying that it's part of their culture - but it's not part of our culture is it? Don't people need to make allowances for that they're living in the 21st century UK rather than in Saudi or Pakistan? Same question to you, how do you propose we stop it? In this instance the Labour politicians should have explained that this was unacceptable - and if the audience refused to integrate then they should have walked out. How do you stop it more wildly? Where people sit is impossible to legislate for. But the wider behaviour can handled by a combination of legislation and making clear what is acceptable (like situations like this).
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Post by ukcstokie on May 4, 2015 12:46:15 GMT
I don't agree. The message should be "you are welcome at the rally but special treatment will not be given especially if it contradicts British values. You aren't special and we won't put your beliefs above ours . You aren't more important than us. We are the same . We believe in equality and if you don't agree you have two choices. Either accept it or if you can't accept it stay away" If you do that you will be anti-islamist. Therefore you have demonstrated that you are part of the problem. Saying that people should fit in with the laws and culture of the existing society - with some tolerance - isn't racist is it?
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Post by edgepotter on May 4, 2015 12:47:03 GMT
If you do that you will be anti-islamist. No it wouldn't . That's your opinion and my opinion differs from yours It would be common sense. Nothing more nothing less Not giving Islam special treatment is not anti - islamic The definition of anti is a person who is opposed to a particular practice, party, policy, action, etc. It is anti-islamic because it goes against what they believe in, you are opposing their beliefs and therefore cannot be anything other than anti-islamic.
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Post by stokeharry on May 4, 2015 13:06:46 GMT
No it wouldn't . That's your opinion and my opinion differs from yours It would be common sense. Nothing more nothing less Not giving Islam special treatment is not anti - islamic The definition of anti is a person who is opposed to a particular practice, party, policy, action, etc. It is anti-islamic because it goes against what they believe in, you are opposing their beliefs and therefore cannot be anything other than anti-islamic. No There are Muslims out there that are happy to integrate and would happily sit next to members of the opposite sex . I'm anti certain aspects of Islam , damn right I am . I'm anti how they treat women and I'm anti how they treat gays etc but to say I'm anti everything about Islam is wrong. By the same standards I could say that if a muslim refuses to abide by the rules and asks for special treatment and doesnt want to do things our way then that is anti British
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Post by edgepotter on May 4, 2015 13:14:25 GMT
Same question to you, how do you propose we stop it? In this instance the Labour politicians should have explained that this was unacceptable - and if the audience refused to integrate then they should have walked out. How do you stop it more wildly? Where people sit is impossible to legislate for. But the wider behaviour can handled by a combination of legislation and making clear what is acceptable (like situations like this). What you're makes sense it really does, but there a few issues. - if they walk out then you've alienated them, and regardless of whether or not it's the right thing to do your party get's absolutely hammered for being anti-islamic, racist etc. It causes massive problems. - if they walk out they go and join another party. If all parties adopt the same stance then they just form their own party, this leads to a complete breakdown of social intergration and the country becomes even more fractured and divided than it already is. Now at this point you'll probably say something like what you've said just above; 'If you don't abide by them then you're not welcome here'The problem with this is they are British citizens, you can't just tell them to go elsewhere. If we make them feel unwelcome then this increases racial tensions in the country and we face a severe backlash from the rest of the Islamic world, far far worse than what we experience now. It's a very complex and sensitive issue.
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Post by stokeharry on May 4, 2015 13:23:23 GMT
In this instance the Labour politicians should have explained that this was unacceptable - and if the audience refused to integrate then they should have walked out. How do you stop it more wildly? Where people sit is impossible to legislate for. But the wider behaviour can handled by a combination of legislation and making clear what is acceptable (like situations like this). What you're makes sense it really does, but there a few issues. - if they walk out then you've alienated them, and regardless of whether or not it's the right thing to do your party get's absolutely hammered for being anti-islamic, racist etc. It causes massive problems. - if they walk out they go and join another party. If all parties adopt the same stance then they just form their own party, this leads to a complete breakdown of social intergration and the country becomes even more fractured and divided than it already is. Now at this point you'll probably say something like what you've said just above; 'If you don't abide by them then you're not welcome here'The problem with this is they are British citizens, you can't just tell them to go elsewhere. If we make them feel unwelcome then this increases racial tensions in the country and we face a severe backlash from the rest of the Islamic world, far far worse than what we experience now. It's a very complex and sensitive issue. You can tell them to go elsewhere. If they don't want to fit in they should leave. We shouldn't pander to the minority , it alienates the majority. It's that kind of thinking from the Labour party that has made me switch from being a labour voter to a ukip voter
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Post by The Drunken Communist on May 4, 2015 13:25:50 GMT
You can tell them to go elsewhere. If they don't want to fit in they should leave. What if they don't want to leave? Are you going to force them to leave? Where are you sending them?
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Post by stokeharry on May 4, 2015 13:27:59 GMT
You can tell them to go elsewhere. If they don't want to fit in they should leave. What if they don't want to leave? Are you going to force them to leave? Where are you sending them? I'm talking about at the Labour party meeting . They wouldn't have any choice but to leave. They would be escorted off the property and where they choose to go is up to them .
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Post by The Drunken Communist on May 4, 2015 13:32:53 GMT
I'm talking about at the Labour party meeting . They wouldn't have any choice but to leave. They would be escorted off the property and where they choose to go is up to them . Nice side-step there. Full marks. I can't imagine as chucking a bunch of Muslims out of an Islamic centre (I think I read as that is where the meeting was held?) would sit too well, though. So it then brings you back to the top of Edge's last post.
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Post by stokeharry on May 4, 2015 13:35:29 GMT
I'm talking about at the Labour party meeting . They wouldn't have any choice but to leave. They would be escorted off the property and where they choose to go is up to them . Nice side-step there. Full marks. I can't imagine as chucking a bunch of Muslims out of an Islamic centre (I think I read as that is where the meeting was held?) would sit too well, though. So it then brings you back to the top of Edge's last post. No side step here son An islamic centre IN ENGLAND which means they should have to abide by the law of the land and in this country we don't segregate the sexes. British law in Britain comes before muslim (sharia) law. Or at least it should
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Post by The Drunken Communist on May 4, 2015 13:38:49 GMT
No side step here son An islamic centre IN ENGLAND which means they should have to abide by the law of the land and in this country we don't segregate the sexes. British law in Britain comes before muslim (sharia) law. Or at least it should We both know exactly what you meant last time I wasn't aware of any British Law which states that during any meeting people must sit in a male - female - male - female configuration? What if those women all just chose to sit where they did? Are you going to go bowling in there & make them all stand-up again & switch seats?
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Post by stokeharry on May 4, 2015 13:43:20 GMT
No side step here son An islamic centre IN ENGLAND which means they should have to abide by the law of the land and in this country we don't segregate the sexes. British law in Britain comes before muslim (sharia) law. Or at least it should We both know exactly what you meant last time I wasn't aware of any British Law which states that during any meeting people must sit in a male - female - male - female configuration? What if those women all just chose to sit where they did? Are you going to go bowling in there & make them all stand-up again & switch seats? Yes we do but I can see you are trying to twist what was actually written to suit your argument. Nice try. Must try harder There is no law that states men and women have to sit together you are correct but you are purposely missing the point . There is a law however that states men and women are to be treated as equals. Everyone knows that women are treated as second class citizens in Islam. This is un Britsh and this shouldn't be tolerated
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Post by The Drunken Communist on May 4, 2015 13:49:46 GMT
There is no law that states men and women have to sit together you are correct but you are purposely missing the point . There is a law however that states men and women are to be treated as equals. Everyone knows that women are treated as second class citizens in Islam. This is un Britsh and this shouldn't be tolerated I agree that men & women should be treated equally, I also agree that some Muslims don't share this belief. I still don't see how you can go kicking them out of a meeting just because some women sat together & some men sat together, though. I'd imagine it is just second nature for a female Muslim to take a seat with other female Muslims. Are you really going to go in there & force them to leave the meeting unless they get up & sit next to a male?
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Post by stokeharry on May 4, 2015 13:56:41 GMT
There is no law that states men and women have to sit together you are correct but you are purposely missing the point . There is a law however that states men and women are to be treated as equals. Everyone knows that women are treated as second class citizens in Islam. This is un Britsh and this shouldn't be tolerated I agree that men & women should be treated equally, I also agree that some Muslims don't share this belief. I still don't see how you can go kicking them out of a meeting just because some women sat together & some men sat together, though. I'd imagine it is just second nature for a female Muslim to take a seat with other female Muslims. Are you really going to go in there & force them to leave the meeting unless they get up & sit next to a male? Water cannons mate . Baton charge the fuckers. CS gas them and drag them outside. That's what you want me to say isn't it . Nair. What I'd do is I'd encourage them to mix the seating arrangements up. I'd explain that they are living in a modern western country and that their refusal to mix could be seen as backward thinking. If they were sensible and understanding this wouldn't be a problem for them. If it was a problem for them then that would be a problem for me . I aren't scared of them. I won't tip toe around them.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 13:56:59 GMT
There is no law that states men and women have to sit together you are correct but you are purposely missing the point . There is a law however that states men and women are to be treated as equals. Everyone knows that women are treated as second class citizens in Islam. This is un Britsh and this shouldn't be tolerated I agree that men & women should be treated equally, I also agree that some Muslims don't share this belief. I still don't see how you can go kicking them out of a meeting just because some women sat together & some men sat together, though. I'd imagine it is just second nature for a female Muslim to take a seat with other female Muslims. Are you really going to go in there & force them to leave the meeting unless they get up & sit next to a male? I would .....and explain to them that this is normal behaviour in Britain .
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Post by stokeharry on May 4, 2015 13:58:48 GMT
I agree that men & women should be treated equally, I also agree that some Muslims don't share this belief. I still don't see how you can go kicking them out of a meeting just because some women sat together & some men sat together, though. I'd imagine it is just second nature for a female Muslim to take a seat with other female Muslims. Are you really going to go in there & force them to leave the meeting unless they get up & sit next to a male? I would .....and explain to them that this is normal behaviour in Britain . Which would make you anti islamic apparantly :/
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Post by boothenboy75 on May 4, 2015 13:59:25 GMT
No it wouldn't . That's your opinion and my opinion differs from yours It would be common sense. Nothing more nothing less Not giving Islam special treatment is not anti - islamic The definition of anti is a person who is opposed to a particular practice, party, policy, action, etc. It is anti-islamic because it goes against what they believe in, you are opposing their beliefs and therefore cannot be anything other than anti-islamic. So what your saying is that basically western values are incompatable with muslim values, and the only way to solve this is to let western values become overiden by islamic values. What a sad state of affairs. It might be a vision of the future that a few have for their children, but it certainly isn't mine and I believe that the majority of the British population are waking up to the fact that it isn't theirs either.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 14:02:28 GMT
I would .....and explain to them that this is normal behaviour in Britain . Which would make you anti islamic apparantly :/ I don't care ....I didn't invite them in the first place ....
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Post by edgepotter on May 4, 2015 14:03:32 GMT
What you're makes sense it really does, but there a few issues. - if they walk out then you've alienated them, and regardless of whether or not it's the right thing to do your party get's absolutely hammered for being anti-islamic, racist etc. It causes massive problems. - if they walk out they go and join another party. If all parties adopt the same stance then they just form their own party, this leads to a complete breakdown of social intergration and the country becomes even more fractured and divided than it already is. Now at this point you'll probably say something like what you've said just above; 'If you don't abide by them then you're not welcome here'The problem with this is they are British citizens, you can't just tell them to go elsewhere. If we make them feel unwelcome then this increases racial tensions in the country and we face a severe backlash from the rest of the Islamic world, far far worse than what we experience now. It's a very complex and sensitive issue. You can tell them to go elsewhere. If they don't want to fit in they should leave. We shouldn't pander to the minority , it alienates the majority. It's that kind of thinking from the Labour party that has made me switch from being a labour voter to a ukip voter If you told them to leave, and they didn't what would you do then? Not have the meeting and re-arrange it for another time? What if you re-arranged it and the same people came and sat in the exact same arrangement. There's nothing you can possibly do to enforce it.
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Post by edgepotter on May 4, 2015 14:05:30 GMT
I agree that men & women should be treated equally, I also agree that some Muslims don't share this belief. I still don't see how you can go kicking them out of a meeting just because some women sat together & some men sat together, though. I'd imagine it is just second nature for a female Muslim to take a seat with other female Muslims. Are you really going to go in there & force them to leave the meeting unless they get up & sit next to a male? Water cannons mate . Baton charge the fuckers. CS gas them and drag them outside. That's what you want me to say isn't it . Nair. What I'd do is I'd encourage them to mix the seating arrangements up. I'd explain that they are living in a modern western country and that their refusal to mix could be seen as backward thinking. If they were sensible and understanding this wouldn't be a problem for them. If it was a problem for them then that would be a problem for me . I aren't scared of them. I won't tip toe around them. Wow, I'd pay to see this. I can just picture the headlines in the newspapers the next day.
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Post by daibando on May 4, 2015 14:06:02 GMT
We shouldn't be bickering amongst ourselves over this meeting of Labour members .....we should be condemning the religious beliefs that practise this type of segregation . I have said many many times on here and I'll say it again .....this country will have a new party soon.... The Muslim Party of Great Britain . www.islamicparty.com/ Already has!!
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Post by stokeharry on May 4, 2015 14:06:31 GMT
Which would make you anti islamic apparantly :/ I don't care ....I didn't invite them in the first place .... I'm happy to have them here mate as long as they play fair. Abide by the rules. Intergrate. Fit in and don't expect special treatment. I'm against the Islamification of Britain and think that British vales , British culture and British traditions are to be preserved and maintained
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Post by The Drunken Communist on May 4, 2015 14:07:06 GMT
Water cannons mate . Baton charge the fuckers. CS gas them and drag them outside. That's what you want me to say isn't it . Nair. What I'd do is I'd encourage them to mix the seating arrangements up. I'd explain that they are living in a modern western country and that their refusal to mix could be seen as backward thinking. If they were sensible and understanding this wouldn't be a problem for them. If it was a problem for them then that would be a problem for me . I aren't scared of them. I won't tip toe around them. Not at all If I walked into that hall I'd just want a seat, if a female Muslim walked into that hall she'd want a seat next to another female Muslim, it'd be second nature to both of us. It's not as if there was a bunch of 'bouncers' throwing all the women to one side & forcing them into a seat (or maybe there was, I don't know, I wasn't there.... If there was then that is obviously wrong, but if those women chose to sit where they did then it is fine) You can't keep saying how you are open-minded, welcoming, respectful of others etc in one breath, but then in the next say "Do exactly as I do in every single situation ever, otherwise you can fuck off".
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Post by stokeharry on May 4, 2015 14:09:00 GMT
You can tell them to go elsewhere. If they don't want to fit in they should leave. We shouldn't pander to the minority , it alienates the majority. It's that kind of thinking from the Labour party that has made me switch from being a labour voter to a ukip voter If you told them to leave, and they didn't what would you do then? Not have the meeting and re-arrange it for another time? What if you re-arranged it and the same people came and sat in the exact same arrangement. There's nothing you can possibly do to enforce it. They would have no choice but to leave and if they turned up again you tell them to leave again. You arrange for the meeting to be held elsewhere and warn them that if they come they should abide by the rules . Simple as that. It's only as hard as you make it
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