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Post by chiefdelilah on Apr 25, 2015 20:21:56 GMT
How did he protect them? He was good on the ball but he was frequently AWOL and they had more chances than a team that bad had any right to - the fact they got into those situations reasonably regularly was in part due to the fact that the back four had zero protection. Bowen said Nzonzi's brief was to sit. He didn't - he played his usual game. Which meant there was nobody sitting. Only the Fact that he had 4 of his 6 tackles were infront of Ryan and Wolly. The other two were in the box. Steven also had two interception for passes to Defoe and then Danny Graham after the backline gave the ball away time after time... behind him. Did you miss those? Like I said, Steven Nzonzi cannot be blamed for a poor backline performance. He sat infront of them fine and it was they who tried to bring the ball out and get caught in possession as He and Adam went forward on the counter time after time... Yeah great. Except that he didn't sit. I don't need any convenient stats to tell me that, I saw it with my own eyes. Of course a large number of his tackles are going to be in front of the central defence. He plays ahead of them! Some of their chances came from our back line giving it away. Some of them came from them fairly effortlessly breaching us down the middle or down our right.
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Post by Pugsley on Apr 25, 2015 20:27:27 GMT
Are we saying Whelan missing was the reason we didn't win today?
I just can't get my head around that kind of fucked up thinking.
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Post by stokemanusa on Apr 25, 2015 20:29:56 GMT
Only the Fact that he had 4 of his 6 tackles were infront of Ryan and Wolly. The other two were in the box. Steven also had two interception for passes to Defoe and then Danny Graham after the backline gave the ball away time after time... behind him. Did you miss those? Like I said, Steven Nzonzi cannot be blamed for a poor backline performance. He sat infront of them fine and it was they who tried to bring the ball out and get caught in possession as He and Adam went forward on the counter time after time... Yeah great. Except that he didn't sit. I don't need any convenient stats to tell me that, I saw it with my own eyes. Of course a large number of his tackles are going to be in front of the central defence. He plays ahead of them! Some of their chances came from our back line giving it away. Some of them came from them fairly effortlessly breaching us down the middle or down our right. Sorry, but to assume he was told to sit is utter bollocks, we don't know what he was told and that lineup was clearly attacking from the start and even if it wasn't, that's still a better performance than Glenn has put in ages at CDM... Irrespective if you don't like the truth or your eyes think a CDM needs to sit directly infront of Ryan or Wolly the entire match. Even with that horrid performance from him wolly still had 73% possession after Nzonzi, Adam, and especially Arnie ran the show allowing us to have total possession at the half... Attacking and not sitting... Second half we were going for the win just as much but distribution from the back nose dived. Imagine if Wolly was able to pass today in the second half to the midfield without hitting every Sunderland player behind Steven even though he was "sitting" there.
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Post by stokemanusa on Apr 25, 2015 20:30:17 GMT
Are we saying Whelan missing was the reason we didn't win today? I just can't get my head around that kind of fucked up thinking. Hahahaha
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Post by chiefdelilah on Apr 25, 2015 20:30:31 GMT
Are we saying Whelan missing was the reason we didn't win today? I just can't get my head around that kind of fucked up thinking. Are we? No. Are we saying we were exposed and missed the presence of a defensive midfielder at times? I am, yeah.
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Post by Sergeant Muttley on Apr 25, 2015 20:31:12 GMT
Are we saying Whelan missing was the reason we didn't win today? I just can't get my head around that kind of fucked up thinking. Whelan missing was the reason we were so open imo but we also looked brilliant going the other way 1st half without him so its swings and roundabouts.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 20:31:28 GMT
Tactically it's a fine balancing act. Hughes is trying to get Diouf in the game more and you could see what he was trying to do. Get Adam on the ball deeper to hit the channels earlier. He had to sacrifice one and after last week it was only fair it was Whelan. He wasn't bad but was the worse of the two. Nzonzi's performance defensively just adds to the evidence that he cannot play as a DM yet on the ball he was his usual composed self (Nothing to say about his offensive play because it's not fair as it wasn't the job he was asked to do today). Hughes is creating a problem here with certain things. A problem that isn't a big problem and one that can be sorted out over the summer but maybe a problem that needs bringing out. So 6 tackles, 2 interceptions and two clearences infront of Ryan isn't enough for a Stoke midfielder with 82% passing and 54 touches going forward? That'd be Glenn's best performance this season at DM. LOL Do the stats tell you about the occasions where said player saw danger, pointed to the danger, refused to go over and deal with said danger, continued to mark space, make a ridiculous 5 yard movement away from said danger then make out that you are desperately trying to get back and deal with said danger when really you have no interest in dealing with said danger? No, thought not. You stick to your stats flower. They suit you.
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Post by stokemanusa on Apr 25, 2015 20:32:04 GMT
Are we saying Whelan missing was the reason we didn't win today? I just can't get my head around that kind of fucked up thinking. Are we? No. Are we saying we were exposed and missed the presence of a defensive midfielder at times? I am, yeah. In an Attacking lineup with Adam in... shocking that... But to think the great Glenn Whelan would of changed the backline and bego throwing out a sub par match is grasping at it.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Apr 25, 2015 20:32:29 GMT
Yeah great. Except that he didn't sit. I don't need any convenient stats to tell me that, I saw it with my own eyes. Of course a large number of his tackles are going to be in front of the central defence. He plays ahead of them! Some of their chances came from our back line giving it away. Some of them came from them fairly effortlessly breaching us down the middle or down our right. Sorry, but to assume he was told to sit is utter bollocks, we don't know what he was told and that lineup was clearly attacking from the start and even if it wasn't, that's still a better performance than Glenn has put in ages at CDM... Irrespective if you don't like the truth or your eyes think a CDM needs to sit directly infront of Ryan or Wolly the entire match. Even with that horrid performance from him we still had 73% possession after Nzonzi, Adam, and especially Arnie ran the show allowing us to have total possession at the half... Attacking and not sitting... Second half we were going for the win just as much but distribution from the back nose dived. Imagine if Wolly was able to pass today in the second half to the midfield without hitting every Sunderland player behind Steven even though he was "sitting" there. Well Bowen specifically said he was before the match... I don't know about sitting there the whole time, but being disciplined and screening the back four more, yeah. It wasn't a problem in the first half when they offered nothing, but as the game progressed and they started to look dangerous, I think the presence of a Whelan or a Sidwell might have calmed things down a bit.
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Post by stokemanusa on Apr 25, 2015 20:32:53 GMT
So 6 tackles, 2 interceptions and two clearences infront of Ryan isn't enough for a Stoke midfielder with 82% passing and 54 touches going forward? That'd be Glenn's best performance this season at DM. LOL Do the stats tell you about the occasions where said player saw danger, pointed to the danger, refused to go over and deal with said danger, continued to mark space, make a ridiculous 5 yard movement away from said danger then make out that you are desperately trying to get back and deal with said danger when really you have no interest in dealing with said danger? No, thought not. You stick to your stats flower. They suit you. Your post is as "theoretical" as the title of this thread... that being "said."
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Post by stokemanusa on Apr 25, 2015 20:34:04 GMT
Sorry, but to assume he was told to sit is utter bollocks, we don't know what he was told and that lineup was clearly attacking from the start and even if it wasn't, that's still a better performance than Glenn has put in ages at CDM... Irrespective if you don't like the truth or your eyes think a CDM needs to sit directly infront of Ryan or Wolly the entire match. Even with that horrid performance from him we still had 73% possession after Nzonzi, Adam, and especially Arnie ran the show allowing us to have total possession at the half... Attacking and not sitting... Second half we were going for the win just as much but distribution from the back nose dived. Imagine if Wolly was able to pass today in the second half to the midfield without hitting every Sunderland player behind Steven even though he was "sitting" there. Well Bowen specifically said he was before the match... I don't know about sitting there the whole time, but being disciplined and screening the back four more, yeah. It wasn't a problem in the first half when they offered nothing, but as the game progressed and they started to look dangerous, I think the presence of a Whelan or a Sidwell might have calmed things down a bit. Purely speculative, sorry wollscheid was so bad no midfielder could turn into Usain bolt and stop those mishaps going the other way.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 20:34:12 GMT
Do the stats tell you about the occasions where said player saw danger, pointed to the danger, refused to go over and deal with said danger, continued to mark space, make a ridiculous 5 yard movement away from said danger then make out that you are desperately trying to get back and deal with said danger when really you have no interest in dealing with said danger? No, thought not. You stick to your stats flower. They suit you. Your post is as "theoretical" as the title of this thread... that being "said." Rough translation: "Damn. I have to agree with this here so i'll talk bollocks again"
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Post by chiefdelilah on Apr 25, 2015 20:34:22 GMT
Are we? No. Are we saying we were exposed and missed the presence of a defensive midfielder at times? I am, yeah. In an Attacking lineup with Adam in... shocking that... But to think the great Glenn Whelan would of changed the backline and bego throwing out a sub par match is grasping at it. I don't even know what point you're making in the first half of that sentence. Second, yeah, Begovic cost us the goal. That was why they scored. It wasn't why they created a fairly worrying number of very good chances despite being a) the away team and b) fucking abominable.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Apr 25, 2015 20:35:42 GMT
Well Bowen specifically said he was before the match... I don't know about sitting there the whole time, but being disciplined and screening the back four more, yeah. It wasn't a problem in the first half when they offered nothing, but as the game progressed and they started to look dangerous, I think the presence of a Whelan or a Sidwell might have calmed things down a bit. Purely speculative, sorry wollscheid was so bad no midfielder could turn into Usain bolt and stop those mishaps going the other way. Wollscheid was bad but he wasn't the only factor. Still, you're on your way to one of your little meltdowns so there's no stopping you.
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Post by Pugsley on Apr 25, 2015 20:35:53 GMT
Are we saying Whelan missing was the reason we didn't win today? I just can't get my head around that kind of fucked up thinking. Are we? No. Are we saying we were exposed and missed the presence of a defensive midfielder at times? I am, yeah. I can't argue with that but today we saw some great play between Adam, Ireland and Arnautovic. Some of it was a pleasure to watch and would not have been possible if Glenn was playing. I think today's game was one where we could get away with not playing an out an out DM. True we were open but I enjoyed a decent game of football.
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Post by stokemanusa on Apr 25, 2015 20:37:04 GMT
In an Attacking lineup with Adam in... shocking that... But to think the great Glenn Whelan would of changed the backline and bego throwing out a sub par match is grasping at it. I don't even know what point you're making in the first half of that sentence. Second, yeah, Begovic cost us the goal. That was why they scored. It wasn't why they created a fairly worrying number of very good chances despite being a) the away team and b) fucking abominable. So the backline had no responsibility then... okay you've lost the plot there... Wolly wasn't the problem giving the ball in the central midifeld at all then behind a counter attacking Adam and Nzonzi? So they were lucky to only get one??? They're lucky they didn't have 4, or better yet. Phillip is... a DM is a midfielder and should go forward and not sit 100% of the match, like Whelan.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Apr 25, 2015 20:38:06 GMT
Are we? No. Are we saying we were exposed and missed the presence of a defensive midfielder at times? I am, yeah. I can't argue with that but today we saw some great play between Adam, Ireland and Arnautovic. Some of it was a pleasure to watch and would not have been possible if Glenn was playing. I think today's game was one where we could get away with not playing an out an out DM. True we were open but I enjoyed a decent game of football. Absolutely, it's not black and white. First half we played some of our best football of the season and there was no reason to believe we couldn't have got away with it. Had we taken our chances in that spell we would have. The exposure of the already dodgy backline did become a problem though which suggests some tweaking is needed if we use it in future - be it a case of either Adam or Nzonzi or getting an upgrade on Glenn in pronto.
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Post by stokemanusa on Apr 25, 2015 20:39:09 GMT
Your post is as "theoretical" as the title of this thread... that being "said." Rough translation: "Damn. I have to agree with this here so i'll talk bollocks again" Your the one talking bollocks...
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Post by chiefdelilah on Apr 25, 2015 20:40:10 GMT
I don't even know what point you're making in the first half of that sentence. Second, yeah, Begovic cost us the goal. That was why they scored. It wasn't why they created a fairly worrying number of very good chances despite being a) the away team and b) fucking abominable. So the backline had no responsibility then... okay you've lost the plot there... Wolly wasn't the problem giving the ball in the central midifeld at all then behind a counter attacking Adam and Nzonzi? So they were lucky to only get one??? They're lucky they didn't have 4, or better yet. Phillip is... a DM is a midfielder and should go forward and not sit 100% of the match, like Whelan. Where did I say the backline had no responsibility? Find the bit where I said that, I've actually said more than once tonight literally the opposite of that. They weren't lucky or unlucky, they were shit but they had several very cleat sights of goal due to our overall slackness defensively that someone not shit would have punished. Again, the last sentence is just incoherent, no idea what you're trying to say there.
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Post by stokerstayinup on Apr 25, 2015 20:40:23 GMT
I don't think Adam is the answer in a midfield 2. I don't think Adam is the answer full stop, not in the starting XI at least. I can see why he went for it today though, and I don't think leaving Whelan out cost us 2 points. No. Equally playing a shit side rather than a good one is the reason we didn't concede two or three. Would a half time score of 3-1 or 4-1 have flattered us?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 20:41:24 GMT
Rough translation: "Damn. I have to agree with this here so i'll talk bollocks again" Your the one talking bollocks... I am if football is a 100% stats driven game. Thankfully for my sanity it isn't, and it never will be.
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Post by chesterfieldstokie on Apr 25, 2015 20:42:43 GMT
No. Equally playing a shit side rather than a good one is the reason we didn't concede two or three. Would a half time score of 3-1 or 4-1 have flattered us? Yes, Defoe missed at least one easy chance
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Post by cobhamstokey on Apr 25, 2015 20:43:29 GMT
I don't think Glen was missed at all however against better teams he may be. Adam was brilliant today. I thought him Arni and Ireland all played very well. I think we need to be flexible Adam needs to play against the lesser teams and Whelan/upgrade against the better teams / away.
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Post by stokemanusa on Apr 25, 2015 20:45:15 GMT
So the backline had no responsibility then... okay you've lost the plot there... Wolly wasn't the problem giving the ball in the central midifeld at all then behind a counter attacking Adam and Nzonzi? So they were lucky to only get one??? They're lucky they didn't have 4, or better yet. Phillip is... a DM is a midfielder and should go forward and not sit 100% of the match, like Whelan. Where did I say the backline had no responsibility? Find the bit where I said that, I've actually said more than once tonight literally the opposite of that. They weren't lucky or unlucky, they were shit but they had several very cleat sights of goal due to our overall slackness defensively that someone not shit would have punished. Again, the last sentence is just incoherent, no idea what you're trying to say there. Our backline was shit at times and not the midfield players, they were so shit they had everyone worried throughout... not one midfielder had a bad game or "poor" game. To suggest they didn't do their job and speculating Glenn would of change that is utter horseshit seeing Steven had the most tackles directly in front of the back four screening for them in the shirt today. Only Arnuatovic came close in that area and he's a winger. Sorry but this thread is a joke and a slap in the face to one of the best midfield performances in nearly every stat and manner in a while irrespective if they were a shit side, it wasn't the midfield that gave them so many opportunites or the "lack" there of a sitting midfielder because a CB had the biggest mare passing this season.
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Post by stokemanusa on Apr 25, 2015 20:45:51 GMT
Would a half time score of 3-1 or 4-1 have flattered us? Yes, Defoe missed at least one easy chance Billy jone's missed a easy one aswell from one of Wolly's mishaps... behind Nzonzi.
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Post by stokemanusa on Apr 25, 2015 20:46:45 GMT
Your the one talking bollocks... I am if football is a 100% stats driven game. Thankfully for my sanity it isn't, and it never will be. Did I say it was? your the one talking about "Saids" and "Supposed toos..." Nothing more than speculation and has nothing to do with actual events.
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Post by chesterfieldstokie on Apr 25, 2015 20:47:24 GMT
Yes, Defoe missed at least one easy chance Billy jone's missed a easy one aswell from one of Wolly's mishaps... behind Nzonzi. That was 2nd half.
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Post by scfcno1fan on Apr 25, 2015 20:48:21 GMT
Glenn wasn't missed for me.
It's a balance. If Glenn plays, we don't create half the number of chances that we did. We also may not concede the number of chances that we did.
I know which kind of game I would rather see (at this stage of the season anyway!)
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Post by stokemanusa on Apr 25, 2015 20:48:34 GMT
Billy jone's missed a easy one aswell from one of Wolly's mishaps... behind Nzonzi. That was 2nd half. Of the same game... a mare throughout.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Apr 25, 2015 20:49:15 GMT
No. Equally playing a shit side rather than a good one is the reason we didn't concede two or three. Would a half time score of 3-1 or 4-1 have flattered us? No. We had our chances and should have capitalised on them. They will feel the same way though.
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