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Post by metalhead on Apr 27, 2015 9:30:03 GMT
What a surprise a player has one bad game and he's not good enough. Just typical of the oatcake. I'd prefer Huth BUT Wolly is still a very good defender (yesterday aside). It's not one bad game though is it? It's the culmination of some very dodgy and worrying aspects to his game. He's a bit suspect defensively, has milk float-like pace and has a questionable temperament looking at Blackburn and yesterday. People are worried and it's fair enough I reckon. It's not without some substance is it? He's also had some very good games. I thought he was very good against Southampton. He was also terrific against Leicester away. He is still new to the Prem and I believe he will improve further.
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Post by PerCyfilth ....Captains Log on Apr 27, 2015 9:34:56 GMT
Its Wollys first crack at the Prem and he will improve so i would sign him. Bring back the other big German and let him teach the lad. Wollscheid is decent on the ball but Huth is an out an out experienced defender who can school him.
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Post by philb on Apr 27, 2015 9:39:16 GMT
To be honest what I don't like about him is the fact that nearly every time he screws up with his distribution he always seems to blame somebody else! He absolute terrifies me when Bego gives him the ball and he starts running in circles looking for a pass that isn't there, then inevitably trips over the ball or gets it stuck between his feet. It really is comical at times. I'd rather have Wilson there to be honest, at least he's reasonably comfortable on the ball.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Apr 27, 2015 9:40:22 GMT
It's not one bad game though is it? It's the culmination of some very dodgy and worrying aspects to his game. He's a bit suspect defensively, has milk float-like pace and has a questionable temperament looking at Blackburn and yesterday. People are worried and it's fair enough I reckon. It's not without some substance is it? He's also had some very good games. I thought he was very good against Southampton. He was also terrific against Leicester away. He is still new to the Prem and I believe he will improve further. His lack of consistency and the parts of his game that are causing the problems are the reasons why I'd give him a miss. He was good at Leicester without a doubt and was steady against Saints BUT still lost his man for the goal.
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Post by Northy on Apr 27, 2015 9:41:38 GMT
Huth, there it is
Sent from my SM-G850F using proboards
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Post by jimmygscfc on Apr 27, 2015 9:51:31 GMT
Let's assume that Hughes and his team will have seen enough of him by the time the season comes to and end in order to make an informed decision. It'll be interesting to see fi he keeps his place for the Swansea game after his nightmare on Saturday. If he does it means we're giving him every opportunity whilst he's here on loan but loanee or not, he shouldn't be an automatic pick just because we're paying a fee for that loan. There are points, league placings and hard, cold cash at stake here. This Saturday may be his last chance saloon and Muni or Wilson may well see the season out. If they do, Wolly won't be joining full time.
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Post by larstoke on Apr 27, 2015 10:03:23 GMT
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Post by viewfrominside on Apr 27, 2015 10:05:16 GMT
Huth > Wellshite Wollschied - Don't think he's that bad maybe needs a season to settle into the pace of the prem as many players do but his name does sound like 'Wellshite'
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Post by viewfrominside on Apr 27, 2015 10:14:35 GMT
In 12 month time he could turn out to be a proper player for us, we are going to have to get used to the fact that since we have started signing foreign players some of them are going to take longer to adjust to English football than others, it's just the way it is and this is why they are often a good price because they arn't tried and tested
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Post by meirparkpotter on Apr 27, 2015 11:13:38 GMT
I'm a fan of Wolly, he has that 'continental' style of play and I think he reads the game quite well. The stats however, tell a completely different story and side with a lot of you naysayers! On this, maybe he is behind Wilson in the pecking order... On a secondary note, just look at those stats from Ryan, leads 5/7 of the given statistics, what a player! (But we all knew that anyway!) Imagine if we had a second defender of Ryan's ability here...
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Post by FullerMagic on Apr 27, 2015 11:21:38 GMT
I'm a fan of Wolly, he has that 'continental' style of play and I think he reads the game quite well. The stats however, tell a completely different story and side with a lot of you naysayers! On this, maybe he is behind Wilson in the pecking order... On a secondary note, just look at those stats from Ryan, leads 5/7 of the given statistics, what a player! (But we all knew that anyway!) Imagine if we had a second defender of Ryan's ability here... Not that stats tell you the whole story, but how does Huth compare?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 11:36:30 GMT
I'm a fan of Wolly, he has that 'continental' style of play and I think he reads the game quite well. The stats however, tell a completely different story and side with a lot of you naysayers! On this, maybe he is behind Wilson in the pecking order... On a secondary note, just look at those stats from Ryan, leads 5/7 of the given statistics, what a player! (But we all knew that anyway!) Imagine if we had a second defender of Ryan's ability here... Those stats aren't half as horrific as I expected them to be, considering the lad has significantly less experience in this country in comparison to the other two and has played in a makeshift back four for most of his 12 appearances. Can you throw some more stats up with regards to defensive headers and attacking headers in the opposite box?
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Apr 27, 2015 11:43:54 GMT
I'm a fan of Wolly, he has that 'continental' style of play and I think he reads the game quite well. The stats however, tell a completely different story and side with a lot of you naysayers! On this, maybe he is behind Wilson in the pecking order... On a secondary note, just look at those stats from Ryan, leads 5/7 of the given statistics, what a player! (But we all knew that anyway!) Imagine if we had a second defender of Ryan's ability here... Those stats aren't half as horrific as I expected them to be, considering the lad has significantly less experience in this country in comparison to the other two and has played in a makeshift back four for most of his 12 appearances. Can you throw some more stats up with regards to defensive headers and attacking headers in the opposite box? Depends how you view it. His supposed biggest attribute is when he's in possession but his stats are virtually identical to the other two lads. Defensively I don't think he's a patch on them for aggression and desire to win the ball.
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Post by retired1 on Apr 27, 2015 11:48:42 GMT
On Saturdays perfomances Huth and I'd pick me above Wollscheid
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 11:54:58 GMT
Those stats aren't half as horrific as I expected them to be, considering the lad has significantly less experience in this country in comparison to the other two and has played in a makeshift back four for most of his 12 appearances. Can you throw some more stats up with regards to defensive headers and attacking headers in the opposite box? Depends how you view it. His supposed biggest attribute is when he's in possession but his stats are virtually identical to the other two lads. Defensively I don't think he's a patch on them for aggression and desire to win the ball. He isn't a stopper, that's why he's not as aggressive as the others. If you have a problem with that and how that fits into English football then you have a problem with the scouts and Hughes. They scouted him and Hughes signed him. The pass percentage stats can depend a lot on the type of balls he's used to playing and the type of balls he is playing now. It's a crap stat for any player anywhere on the park though, because of so many different factors. I'd say his stats are pretty much correct in line with a ball playing defender against a stopper (In terms of blocks, tackles and interceptions), but I thought his stats would present a lot worse against what we've seen thus far on the pitch. I think that last paragraph tells you all you need to know about stats though in all honesty.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Apr 27, 2015 12:02:10 GMT
Depends how you view it. His supposed biggest attribute is when he's in possession but his stats are virtually identical to the other two lads. Defensively I don't think he's a patch on them for aggression and desire to win the ball. He isn't a stopper, that's why he's not as aggressive as the others. If you have a problem with that and how that fits into English football then you have a problem with the scouts and Hughes. They scouted him and Hughes signed him. The pass percentage stats can depend a lot on the type of balls he's used to playing and the type of balls he is playing now. It's a crap stat for any player anywhere on the park though, because of so many different factors. I'd say his stats are pretty much correct in line with a ball playing defender against a stopper (In terms of blocks, tackles and interceptions), but I thought his stats would present a lot worse against what we've seen thus far on the pitch. I think that last paragraph tells you all you need to know about stats though in all honesty. I've said I don't particularly rate him mate and it is one of the few things I don't agree with Hughes on. For all the hype about his fabled talents in possession he often looks as uncomfortable on the ball as he looks assured which is bizarre in itself. I don't mind the prospect of a centre back who can play (I think Ryan does it perfectly well now) but if we wanted a more refined defender I think we already have a better player than Wolly in Muniesa.
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Post by philb on Apr 27, 2015 12:03:58 GMT
Those stats aren't half as horrific as I expected them to be, considering the lad has significantly less experience in this country in comparison to the other two and has played in a makeshift back four for most of his 12 appearances. Can you throw some more stats up with regards to defensive headers and attacking headers in the opposite box? Depends how you view it. His supposed biggest attribute is when he's in possession but his stats are virtually identical to the other two lads. Defensively I don't think he's a patch on them for aggression and desire to win the ball. Hence the blocks category.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 12:08:59 GMT
He isn't a stopper, that's why he's not as aggressive as the others. If you have a problem with that and how that fits into English football then you have a problem with the scouts and Hughes. They scouted him and Hughes signed him. The pass percentage stats can depend a lot on the type of balls he's used to playing and the type of balls he is playing now. It's a crap stat for any player anywhere on the park though, because of so many different factors. I'd say his stats are pretty much correct in line with a ball playing defender against a stopper (In terms of blocks, tackles and interceptions), but I thought his stats would present a lot worse against what we've seen thus far on the pitch. I think that last paragraph tells you all you need to know about stats though in all honesty. I've said I don't particularly rate him mate and it is one of the few things I don't agree with Hughes on. For all the hype about his fabled talents in possession he often looks as uncomfortable on the ball as he looks assured which is bizarre in itself. I don't mind the prospect of a centre back who can play (I think Ryan does it perfectly well now) but if we wanted a more refined defender I think we already have a better player than Wolly in Muniesa. I'm only guessing here, and the scouts who watched him will tell you if you they ever had the chance, but I'd guess he looks awkward in possession because he hasn't got many out balls for a short pass. The longer ball he simply cannot play as well as the likes of Wilson or Shawcross. That is very apparent. The incident happened on Saturday because he had so few options (Only Ireland was half open), took longer on the ball than he needed to and wallop. All he had to do was stick his foot through it and job done. He visibly looks uncomfortable doing that though. It would be interesting to know who we scouted him against, what system he was playing in over in Germany and what stat tools we used. I'd be fascinated to see it.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Apr 27, 2015 12:12:51 GMT
I've said I don't particularly rate him mate and it is one of the few things I don't agree with Hughes on. For all the hype about his fabled talents in possession he often looks as uncomfortable on the ball as he looks assured which is bizarre in itself. I don't mind the prospect of a centre back who can play (I think Ryan does it perfectly well now) but if we wanted a more refined defender I think we already have a better player than Wolly in Muniesa. I'm only guessing here, and the scouts who watched him will tell you if you they ever had the chance, but I'd guess he looks awkward in possession because he hasn't got many out balls for a short pass. The longer ball he simply cannot play as well as the likes of Wilson or Shawcross. That is very apparent. The incident happened on Saturday because he had so few options (Only Ireland was half open), took longer on the ball than he needed to and wallop. All he had to do was stick his foot through it and job done. He visibly looks uncomfortable doing that though. It would be interesting to know who we scouted him against, what system he was playing in over in Germany and what stat tools we used. I'd be fascinated to see it. I think we take some very silly risks at the back with Asmir starting it all off. That won't help him but I think his overall game isn't suited to the division. I think it's too hectic and too physical for him. That doesn't mean he's not a decent player but if his natural attributes are top notch his flaws will drag him down.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Apr 27, 2015 12:32:59 GMT
Depends how you view it. His supposed biggest attribute is when he's in possession but his stats are virtually identical to the other two lads. Defensively I don't think he's a patch on them for aggression and desire to win the ball. He isn't a stopper, that's why he's not as aggressive as the others. If you have a problem with that and how that fits into English football then you have a problem with the scouts and Hughes. They scouted him and Hughes signed him. The pass percentage stats can depend a lot on the type of balls he's used to playing and the type of balls he is playing now. It's a crap stat for any player anywhere on the park though, because of so many different factors. I'd say his stats are pretty much correct in line with a ball playing defender against a stopper (In terms of blocks, tackles and interceptions), but I thought his stats would present a lot worse against what we've seen thus far on the pitch. I think that last paragraph tells you all you need to know about stats though in all honesty. I have a huge problem with Mark Hughes on this one and think he's getting it badly wrong. Wolschied has done OK at times. He was my MOM against Leicester for example, but truth is he isn't as good as what we have already in terms of Muniesa and Wilson and he's miles behind a fully fit Robert Huth, who inexplicably seems to be surplus to requirements. I love Mark Hughes, wouldn't want anyone else as our manager but on this issue and this issue alone, he simply has to be getting it wrong. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. If Huth proves his fitness at Leicester (which he's seemingly doing) then it is a no brainer to bring him back into the fold at Stoke next season and rekindle his partnership with Ryan.
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Post by meirparkpotter on Apr 27, 2015 12:37:47 GMT
I'm a fan of Wolly, he has that 'continental' style of play and I think he reads the game quite well. The stats however, tell a completely different story and side with a lot of you naysayers! On this, maybe he is behind Wilson in the pecking order... On a secondary note, just look at those stats from Ryan, leads 5/7 of the given statistics, what a player! (But we all knew that anyway!) Imagine if we had a second defender of Ryan's ability here... Not that stats tell you the whole story, but how does Huth compare? I'm a fan of Wolly, he has that 'continental' style of play and I think he reads the game quite well. The stats however, tell a completely different story and side with a lot of you naysayers! On this, maybe he is behind Wilson in the pecking order... On a secondary note, just look at those stats from Ryan, leads 5/7 of the given statistics, what a player! (But we all knew that anyway!) Imagine if we had a second defender of Ryan's ability here... Those stats aren't half as horrific as I expected them to be, considering the lad has significantly less experience in this country in comparison to the other two and has played in a makeshift back four for most of his 12 appearances. Can you throw some more stats up with regards to defensive headers and attacking headers in the opposite box? Ok, firstly I swapped out successful pass % for Aerial Duel percentage won as that's a better marker for defensive players, I also threw Muniesa in at first, and it had a big impact! He immediately took 2 leads off Ryan with tackles won and interceptions, whilst Ryan crept back up one by leading the way with Aerial duels, again, no surprise... I don't have access to attacking headers, sorry. I then added Huth to the mix... and... Well... See below! By pure statistical analysis, on a per 90 minute metric... Roberth Huth is the best defender on the books, and the best in an attacking sense too ... (It was hard seeing Leicester next to his name!) So... Shawcross > Huth > Muniesa > Wilson > Wollscheid Interesting indeed! Please come back to Stoke Herr Huth!!
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Post by meirparkpotter on Apr 27, 2015 12:40:16 GMT
Duplicate post, see above....
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Apr 27, 2015 12:43:49 GMT
Not that stats tell you the whole story, but how does Huth compare? Those stats aren't half as horrific as I expected them to be, considering the lad has significantly less experience in this country in comparison to the other two and has played in a makeshift back four for most of his 12 appearances. Can you throw some more stats up with regards to defensive headers and attacking headers in the opposite box? Ok, firstly I swapped out successful pass % for Aerial Duel percentage won as that's a better marker for defensive players, I also threw Muniesa in at first, and it had a big impact! He immediately took 2 leads off Ryan with tackles won and interceptions, whilst Ryan crept back up one by leading the way with Aerial duels, again, no surprise... I don't have access to attacking headers, sorry. I then added Huth to the mix... and... Well... See below! By pure statistical analysis, on a per 90 minute metric... Roberth Huth is the best defender on the books, and the best in an attacking sense too ... (It was hard seeing Leicster next to his name!) So... Shawcross > Huth > Muniesa > Wilson > Wollscheid Interesting indeed! Please come back to Stoke Herr Huth!! Cheers for that. Turns out my eyes aren't deceiving me!
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Post by shrewspotter on Apr 27, 2015 12:47:44 GMT
Only my opinion I know, but Wollsheid isn't good enough, for me they should send him back to Germany and get Huth back, if they don't want Huth back then look elsewhere, Wollshied isn't the answer. He is slow and a snail and his distribution is shocking, appreciate he has had a few good games, but you must be consistent and first and foremost be able to defend, unfortunately Wolly doesn't fill me with any confidence, I would take Muniesa, Wilson or Huth over him and this lad will cost us points.
I hear the comments about 1 bad game and we slate him, everyone is entitles to a bad game now and then, but we are talking about the same fella here on several occasions since he joined
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Post by ParaPsych on Apr 27, 2015 12:51:31 GMT
Very hard to judge a central defender on stats. Maybe on of the hardest positions. You can be a brilliant defender yet rarely have to make a tackle if you're reading of the game is good enough for example.
All I know is Wollscheid gets a lot of the basics very wrong. Constantly the wrong side of his man, etc. Even against Southampton last week when some thought he did ok.
He's fine when we're not under pressure and controlling the game, like at Leicester, but as soon as we are under the kosh a bit he seems to crumble. Teams are also starting to target him. Look how Drogba instantly played off him at Chelsea. Not much the defenders can do about that. If a striker chooses to stand next to one of them they can't simply swap.
He could always improve his game so I wouldn't lose hope just yet, but it doesn't look good.
My main problem with him right now though is his massive attitude problem. He's a complete pratt.
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Post by mynamesnotmark on Apr 27, 2015 14:27:27 GMT
muni and ryan should be the main pair next season in my humble opinion
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Post by Onneravineet on Apr 27, 2015 14:30:41 GMT
Huth for me. Every single time. Wolly is a good lad but he is no Huth.
However, I'd select Muniesa ahead of Huth and I think that is the partnership that should start next season.
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Post by viewfrominside on Apr 27, 2015 15:26:20 GMT
Huth for me. Every single time. Wolly is a good lad but he is no Huth. However, I'd select Muniesa ahead of Huth and I think that is the partnership that should start next season. He doesn't stay fit for long enough though, as soon as he starts getting competitive minutes he's back on the treatment table
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Post by thestatusquo on Apr 27, 2015 15:30:43 GMT
If he makes a mistake he goes to pieces and the more other players get onto him the worse he gets.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 16:07:19 GMT
To put the stats into some context, I remember reading that Paolo Maldini had a really low tackles per game due to his superior reading of the game.
The main stat that matters in my mind is that we are a superior team in terms of points since Huth has been out the team. In my opinion it is down to having somebody less agressive next to Shawcross, giving the team a better blend of styles.
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