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Post by StokieAsh13 on Apr 4, 2015 13:38:26 GMT
I agree but we lost to a very good Brazil side in 2002. Then 2004/2006 both times out on penalties. Id bring Sven back in. Sven was good yeah. But when it was over it really was over. We need to to shed the self pity over penalties. 25 years since the first one and some of us still have the daft attitude it's a lottery. It isn't. It isn't a lottery and when we faced the same team again in 2006 I thought we might of learnt from our mistakes 2 years previously.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 4, 2015 13:40:57 GMT
Sven was good yeah. But when it was over it really was over. We need to to shed the self pity over penalties. 25 years since the first one and some of us still have the daft attitude it's a lottery. It isn't. It isn't a lottery and when we faced the same team again in 2006 I thought we might of learnt from our mistakes 2 years previously. 2006 I reckon Scolari was happy play the game out with no risks knowing they would beat us on pennos.
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Post by onionman on Apr 4, 2015 13:44:06 GMT
They did well with their club sides, but usually that success was more to do with the intelligent and technically superior players in those club sides.
With the exception of the defenders, particularly Cole, I think all the so-called world class players fell short on an individual level. The most memorable thing about Lampard and Gerrard in big tournaments was that they both had this idea the way to win big games was to take endless numbers of pot shots, and they always looked shocked when this method didn't work. It's hard to believe they didn't simply get sucked in by their own hype within the English media, and overlooked the real reason their club's enjoyed success, i.e. not themselves.
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Post by StokieAsh13 on Apr 4, 2015 13:53:44 GMT
It isn't a lottery and when we faced the same team again in 2006 I thought we might of learnt from our mistakes 2 years previously. 2006 I reckon Scolari was happy play the game out with no risks knowing they would beat us on pennos. Yeah agreed, I think we lost Beckham and Rooney that game as well.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 4, 2015 13:55:33 GMT
2006 I reckon Scolari was happy play the game out with no risks knowing they would beat us on pennos. Yeah agreed, I think we lost Beckham and Rooney that game as well. Rooney got sent off and Beckham was hurt.
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Post by StokieAsh13 on Apr 4, 2015 13:58:29 GMT
Yeah agreed, I think we lost Beckham and Rooney that game as well. Rooney got sent off and Beckham was hurt. It was a bad night!
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 4, 2015 14:02:21 GMT
Rooney got sent off and Beckham was hurt. It was a bad night! KO was 1am. It was well and truly a night of two halves. The first segment was the pre match part. Much ale was consumed and Vindaloo And Three Lions were sung and much frivolity abounded. The second part was from kick off onwards. Where earlier people had danced jigs, waved flags and scarves, and paraded their jolly demeanour to all and sundry, the mood changed completely. Joyous excitement was replaced by unreal calm and anxious scowls at our teams inability to impose themselves on the game. As extra time drifted towards it’s inevitable conclusion, which meant no immediate conclusion, Leonard Cohen’s Everybody Knows came into my mind. You can be sure that when he wrote his darkly brilliant anthem for bitter twisted betrayed lovers, World Cup quarter finals were the last thing on Len’s mind! But with another penalty shoot exit impending, the languid sinister mood of his tortured whispers accurately described the essence of our slow sad shuffle across football’s bridge of sighs. The shootout having reached it’s inevitable conclusion, the majority of the pub crowd quietly drifiting off into the night. My mate JD said exactly the precise words that were in my mind. “We are never going to win it in our lifetime” An accurate observation. Those moments were as sickening and horrible as any football moment I’ve ever had the misfortune to feel. Feeling as bitter as Len sounded, I drank three pints in about ten minutes. JD and I sat mumbling to ourselves and each other, bathing in the aftermath of the delicious nightmare. The scale of my misery wasn't eased by the fact that, like now, I never expected to win the tournament. At that point a Frenchman came to talk to us who was, well, too French. He was so French we felt that he wasn't French at all and was caricaturing a Frenchman for a laugh. He was good looking stylish and had all the mannerisms of the French stereotype. He was waiting for their game against Brazil and had come over to commiserate with us. A really top bloke but it was hard to talk with him because of our depression and the scale of the Frenchness was hard to get past. A quirky end to a horrible night (and early morning) of stomach churning inevitable loss.
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Post by basingstokie on Apr 4, 2015 17:26:14 GMT
I wouldn't say they were world class. They were good individuals but too thick to adapt to different requirements of international football. And that is because of the nature of English football. Individually I'd say every one was world class or close to. They've all won the European Cup or played in the finals, is there that much difference to international football? They massively underachieved. Agree completely. Individually they were all excellent, played against and beat top European teams but never even got close in an International tournament. They must all feel that with the level of talent in the team that is a glaring omission on their CV. Can't blame only the manager but Sven, Steve and Fabio should all feel that they didn't achieve anywhere near full potential with this collection of individuals. Greece won Euro 2004 ffs with a vastly inferior collection of individuals, but they created a team.
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Post by basingstokie on Apr 4, 2015 17:28:24 GMT
Sven was good yeah. But when it was over it really was over. We need to to shed the self pity over penalties. 25 years since the first one and some of us still have the daft attitude it's a lottery. It isn't. It isn't a lottery and when we faced the same team again in 2006 I thought we might of learnt from our mistakes 2 years previously. It's definitely not a lottery for England. It's an elimination. There is a reason Germany & several others are so good at penalties and we are so poor. I'm not sure what it is, but the FA should be finding out
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 4, 2015 17:30:17 GMT
It isn't a lottery and when we faced the same team again in 2006 I thought we might of learnt from our mistakes 2 years previously. It's definitely not a lottery for England. It's an elimination. There is a reason Germany & several others are so good at penalties and we are so poor. I'm not sure what it is, but the FA should be finding out Practice. And just taking them doesn't equate to practice.
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Post by mrcoke on Apr 4, 2015 18:45:29 GMT
Absolutely right. Not only was Greaves strike rate much better than any other top scorer for England since WWII, he had more hat tricks than anyone else and (amazingly) he never took a penalty for England. He is "head and shoulders" above any other strike scorer of the modern era. Any decent striker could beat the record if they play enough games, it's strike rate that mattered. Furthermore Greaves stop playing for England at 27 (even younger than Michael Owen) because Ramsay wanted to groom younger players for the 1970 world cup and he felt Greaves didn't fit into his style of team. He was top scorer in the old 1st Division 6 times (2x Linekar, & Shearer (Prem.)), 357 goals in the top flight, top scorer in 68/69 after he stopped playing for England. His record is phenomenal. I'm not knocking Rooney, on balance he is consistently the best forward we have got, and he has been brilliant for ManU in the past, but would he get into one of the top 10 national teams? Yes he probably would get into some of them, but not many other England players would. Playing for England, world ranked 20th, is not proof these days of being a world quality player. His work rate is far superior to his fellow England players, and on a par with Beckham. He will go down as one of England's all time great players, but modern England players will always be under the shadow of the England world cup winning squad. Since I'm completely bored, here's a list of the current top 10 FIFA rankings; 1 - Germany - Play with 1 up front. I wouldn't have him ahead of Muller but he'd make the bench you'd think. 2 - Argentina - Messi and Aguero, goes without saying. Could probably make the bench as I'd say he's better than Tevez and Higuian. 3 - Colombia - It'd be a complete mismatch of styles, but he'd start up front for them. 4 - Belgium - He'd start. Their strikers (and team) are the most over-rated shit since Charlie Adam's set piece delivery. 5 - Holland - Since Van Persie is practically an OAP and rubbish now, he'd start for them. 6 - Brazil - Don't really have an out and out striker who's any good (Neymar plays on the wing). Would start for them I reckon. 7 - Portugal (I don't know how they're 7th..) - Same as Brazil really, would start. 8 - France - Play with 1 striker and I really like Benzema. Wouldn't start. 9 - Uruguay - Tend to play with 2 strikers. Wouldn't get in ahead of Bitey McRacist but is better than Cavani. 10 - Italy (I REALLY don't know how they're 10th..) - He'd definately start for them. Looking at the FIFA rankings though, that list is an absolute joke. I know we're not brilliant but some of the teams above us are pretty shit and I'd say we're better than. I think you don't understand that rankings are based on results, not how good a team appears on paper. There are many teams who work as a team because of good team work, a prime example is USA. England are 20th because of crap results against other top teams. They can win group qualifying matches against second rate countries, but lose when they come up against anyone of quality like Italy who you don't think should be tenth. You cannot assume that just because a player plays well for a Prem team with other top quality players around him that he would walk into a top 10 international side.
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Post by StokieAsh13 on Apr 4, 2015 20:30:41 GMT
It isn't a lottery and when we faced the same team again in 2006 I thought we might of learnt from our mistakes 2 years previously. It's definitely not a lottery for England. It's an elimination. There is a reason Germany & several others are so good at penalties and we are so poor. I'm not sure what it is, but the FA should be finding out It's baffling at times if I'm honest.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 4, 2015 22:32:39 GMT
It's definitely not a lottery for England. It's an elimination. There is a reason Germany & several others are so good at penalties and we are so poor. I'm not sure what it is, but the FA should be finding out It's baffling at times if I'm honest. It's about practice. Proper practice where you sek to improve. Not just twatting balls when you've finished training and want go have a shower.
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