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Post by chiefdelilah on Apr 3, 2015 18:43:06 GMT
I don't believe he has earned that place. How has he not when he's been a key player there for 11 years? If he hadn't they'd have got rid surely?
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Post by lordb on Apr 3, 2015 18:44:00 GMT
Bobby Charlton as someone said earlier was not a striker as such but more an attacking midfielder, so the comparison with Rooney is not strictly fair to Charlton. One of the great United players Dennis Viollet scored 159 goals in 259 games and got just two England caps. Good point however thus is a Stoke City message board so come on Viollet was a Stoke City legend.
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Post by geoff321 on Apr 3, 2015 18:48:59 GMT
Great player and amazing really that United sold him lb.
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Post by Plave on Apr 3, 2015 18:57:38 GMT
2 points here: 1. Charlton was a midfield player whereas Rooney is a Striker 2. Charltons goals came against low level teams such as Germany, France, Holland, Portugal, Spain, Russia, Argentina, Scotland etc. whereas Rooneys goals were against stiff opposition such as Lichtenstein, Lithuania, Moldova, Malta, San Marino. Enough said really, oh and Charlton has won the World Cup whereas Rooney never will not especially while Hodgson is manager Rooney in comparison isn't good enough to lace Bobby Charltons Boots Charlton got most of his goals playing as a forward, he also got 35 of his 49 in friendlies. Only 14 competitive goals. England played many more friendlies in those days. As for who against, 19 of his goals in friendlies were against Wales, Northern Ireland, the US (8-1 win), Switzerland (8-1 win) and Mexico (8-0 win) He got 2 goals in tournament finals, Rooney has 6. Rooney has 33 competitive goals in total, already the English record. Shearer, Owen, Lineker, Lampard and Gerrard all have more competitive goals for England than Charlton. Bobby Charlton was obviously a great player but let's not get all misty eyed and revisionist. Rooneys record is fantastic against better competition in more meaningful games in a tougher modern sport and should not be sniffed at. Also bear in mind Rooney is still going and could finish on 60 goals at this rate.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 19:04:33 GMT
I don't believe he has earned that place. How has he not when he's been a key player there for 11 years? If he hadn't they'd have got rid surely? oh come on Rob...surely you know that it's obviously the ambition of anyone in any field to reach the pinnacle and become the best they can be.if that wasn't the case then people on here wouldn't be able to put together ludicrous arguments based around a complete void of logic just so they can moan and slag people off! Rooney has scored more and created more assists than anyone else in the Man utd. squad so that therefore means we can deduce that he HASN'T earnt his place at the top table and also that everything he goes on to achieve can be completely ignored as he wouldn't have been able to score so many if he played for Altrincham. The weird thing though is that apparently the same argument can't be used for Charlton....Rooney's only closing in on the record because he plays for 1 of the biggest teams in the country but apparently Charlton was presumably playing for a complete minnow of a side languishing in the third tier and still became top scorer...it's not as if they both played for a great side or anything is it?
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Post by geoff321 on Apr 3, 2015 19:06:26 GMT
" He got 2 goals in tournament finals, Rooney has 6, please explain plave.
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Post by basingstokie on Apr 3, 2015 19:22:04 GMT
Rooney is very good, but he has never got close to winning an international tournament. Charlton has.
No doubt Rooney deserves his place as an England international great and if he breaks the record then stats speak for themselves, but I'd take 'our Bobby' over Wazza any day
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Post by iamcliveclarke on Apr 3, 2015 20:02:36 GMT
I've heard it all now... Rooney rimming on the oatcake ffs! What has the world come to
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Post by tijuanabrass on Apr 3, 2015 22:51:16 GMT
Fitness and training methods have changed in 50 years and this applies to the physical prowess of the opposition. Footballing minnows in the modern era can now have world class coaches that can elevate the team performance. In many respects the players of today are more likely to face accomplished opponents - even in friendlies. However, If you talk about legendary status which of the two do you see as a role model? Who would you rather have sitting at the top table with foreign dignitaries or visiting schools to promote sporting excellence to the next generation? It's also ironic that given the on field merits of both individuals, neither found a dignified way to combat or embrace male pattern baldness.
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Post by Plave on Apr 4, 2015 0:06:21 GMT
" He got 2 goals in tournament finals, Rooney has 6, please explain plave. Rooney has scored 6 goals in the finals of European Championships and World Cups Charlton has scored 2 goals in the finals of European Championships and World Cups Rooney has scored 33 goals in competitive games Charlton has scored 14 goals in competitive games Where it matters Rooney has the better record, yes Charlton won the World Cup but he didn't do it on his own and didn't have the inept management and shite around him that Rooney has had.
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Post by tijuanabrass on Apr 4, 2015 1:09:25 GMT
" He got 2 goals in tournament finals, Rooney has 6, please explain plave. Charlton has scored 14 goals in competitive games . Does this stat class the Home Internationals as competitive or friendlies?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 4, 2015 1:33:04 GMT
I don't think Rooney has shite around him either tbh.
Coates is spot on in his interview we've underachieved with the players we have.
He's played in a side that would have contained the world class or close to Neville, Campbell, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole, Beckham, Lampard, Scholes (probably) and Gerrard. And I'm guessing would have been around with Owen too? He wasn't playing with a bunch of cloggers.
And I think the current group (bar the defence) are pretty good too obviously not to the level of those mentioned above.
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Post by Stokeontrent on Apr 4, 2015 5:48:53 GMT
Wayne Rooney is a brilliant player, gets a lot of unfair criticism. You don't become Manchester United and England top goalscorer and possibly the most capped England player in history if you're not mint
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Post by geoff321 on Apr 4, 2015 7:20:21 GMT
Just to clarify the statistics of goals scored in tournament finals by attacking midfielder Bobby Charlton and forward player Wayne Rooney.
In Euro Finals Rooney played 6 games and scored 5 goals, Charlton played 2 games and scored 1 goal.
In World Cup Finals Rooney played 11 games and scored 1 goal, Charlton played 14 games and scored 4 goals.
In total Rooney played 17 games and scored 6 goals, Charlton played 16 games and scored 5 goals.
The magnificent goal Charlton scored against Mexico in 66 set us on our way and of course his two goals against Portugal in the semi final put us into the final of the World Cup for the first and only time in our history.
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Post by basingstokie on Apr 4, 2015 12:35:01 GMT
I don't think Rooney has shite around him either tbh. Coates is spot on in his interview we've underachieved with the players we have. He's played in a side that would have contained the world class or close to Neville, Campbell, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole, Beckham, Lampard, Scholes (probably) and Gerrard. And I'm guessing would have been around with Owen too? He wasn't playing with a bunch of cloggers. And I think the current group (bar the defence) are pretty good too obviously not to the level of those mentioned above. It's no wonder they were called Golden generation - that is quite simply an incredible collection of individual talent, everyone you've named has a good claim to be world class. Yet as an international team they were distinctly average. & for that we should blame Sven, Mclaren and Fabio
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 4, 2015 12:47:47 GMT
I don't think Rooney has shite around him either tbh. Coates is spot on in his interview we've underachieved with the players we have. He's played in a side that would have contained the world class or close to Neville, Campbell, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole, Beckham, Lampard, Scholes (probably) and Gerrard. And I'm guessing would have been around with Owen too? He wasn't playing with a bunch of cloggers. And I think the current group (bar the defence) are pretty good too obviously not to the level of those mentioned above. It's no wonder they were called Golden generation - that is quite simply an incredible collection of individual talent, everyone you've named has a good claim to be world class. Yet as an international team they were distinctly average. & for that we should blame Sven, Mclaren and Fabio I wouldn't say they were world class. They were good individuals but too thick to adapt to different requirements of international football. And that is because of the nature of English football.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Apr 4, 2015 12:47:57 GMT
I don't think Rooney has shite around him either tbh. Coates is spot on in his interview we've underachieved with the players we have. He's played in a side that would have contained the world class or close to Neville, Campbell, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole, Beckham, Lampard, Scholes (probably) and Gerrard. And I'm guessing would have been around with Owen too? He wasn't playing with a bunch of cloggers. And I think the current group (bar the defence) are pretty good too obviously not to the level of those mentioned above. It's no wonder they were called Golden generation - that is quite simply an incredible collection of individual talent, everyone you've named has a good claim to be world class. Yet as an international team they were distinctly average. & for that we should blame Sven, Mclaren and Fabio It can't be the manager's fault every single time though surely? Don't the player's have to take some responsibility? As well as the conditions and development system in English football?
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 4, 2015 12:49:41 GMT
It's no wonder they were called Golden generation - that is quite simply an incredible collection of individual talent, everyone you've named has a good claim to be world class. Yet as an international team they were distinctly average. & for that we should blame Sven, Mclaren and Fabio It can't be the manager's fault every single time though surely? Don't the player's have to take some responsibility? As well as the conditions and development system in English football? No it isn't always the manager;s fault. The only real dud manager was McClaren. He was only appointed because of the clamour for an English manager.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Apr 4, 2015 12:52:06 GMT
It can't be the manager's fault every single time though surely? Don't the player's have to take some responsibility? As well as the conditions and development system in English football? No it isn't always the manager;s fault. The only real dud manager was McClaren. He was only appointed because of the clamour for an English manager. Fabio should probably carry the can for South Africa to an extent but would never have come in for the stick he got if he was English.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 4, 2015 12:54:18 GMT
It's no wonder they were called Golden generation - that is quite simply an incredible collection of individual talent, everyone you've named has a good claim to be world class. Yet as an international team they were distinctly average. & for that we should blame Sven, Mclaren and Fabio I wouldn't say they were world class. They were good individuals but too thick to adapt to different requirements of international football. And that is because of the nature of English football. Individually I'd say every one was world class or close to. They've all won the European Cup or played in the finals, is there that much difference to international football? They massively underachieved.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 4, 2015 12:54:58 GMT
No it isn't always the manager;s fault. The only real dud manager was McClaren. He was only appointed because of the clamour for an English manager. Fabio should probably carry the can for South Africa to an extent but would never have come in for the stick he got if he was English. The most stick an England manager has ever got was Bobby Robson. And he was English. And I think Capello got off quite lightly after 2010. I say that as someone who supported him.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 4, 2015 12:58:10 GMT
I wouldn't say they were world class. They were good individuals but too thick to adapt to different requirements of international football. And that is because of the nature of English football. Individually I'd say every one was world class or close to. They've all won the European Cup or played in the finals, is there that much difference to international football? They massively underachieved. Yes international football provides more challenges. Challenges that vary hugely depending on a huge amount of factors. This is why, despite what corporations and TV companies with vested interest like you to believe, the World Cup is still the pinnacle of football.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 4, 2015 13:02:09 GMT
Individually I'd say every one was world class or close to. They've all won the European Cup or played in the finals, is there that much difference to international football? They massively underachieved. Yes international football provides more challenges. Challenges that vary hugely depending on a huge amount of factors. This is why, despite what corporations and TV companies with vested interest like you to believe, the World Cup is still the pinnacle of football. And with that group of players we had the talent to do way better and they should have done.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 4, 2015 13:05:27 GMT
Yes international football provides more challenges. Challenges that vary hugely depending on a huge amount of factors. This is why, despite what corporations and TV companies with vested interest like you to believe, the World Cup is still the pinnacle of football. And with that group of players we had the talent to do way better and they should have done. The talent but not the application and mindset. And one without the other means you won't fulfill potential. So lacking those things, which we undoubtedly did, means it's hard to label them world class.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 4, 2015 13:12:33 GMT
And with that group of players we had the talent to do way better and they should have done. The talent but not the application and mindset. And one without the other means you won't fulfill potential. So lacking those things, which we undoubtedly did, means it's hard to label them world class. I disagree, they showed through their club careers that they did, I think the management wasn't good enough. Take someone like Ashley Cole, I think he was the best left back of his generation and like the rest he excelled in the highest echelons in football.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 4, 2015 13:17:48 GMT
The talent but not the application and mindset. And one without the other means you won't fulfill potential. So lacking those things, which we undoubtedly did, means it's hard to label them world class. I disagree, they showed through their club careers that they did, I think the management wasn't good enough. Take someone like Ashley Cole, I think he was the best left back of his generation and like the rest he excelled in the highest echelons in football. Outside of England few people considered them world class. The golden generation were only golden to a segment of the English. The segment that didn't watch anyone from other nations play and see how ordinary the golden generation were in comparison. If we were going win a tournament in my lifetime it was 2004.
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Post by StokieAsh13 on Apr 4, 2015 13:22:32 GMT
Yes international football provides more challenges. Challenges that vary hugely depending on a huge amount of factors. This is why, despite what corporations and TV companies with vested interest like you to believe, the World Cup is still the pinnacle of football. And with that group of players we had the talent to do way better and they should have done. I agree but we lost to a very good Brazil side in 2002. Then 2004/2006 both times out on penalties. Id bring Sven back in.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 4, 2015 13:22:58 GMT
I disagree, they showed through their club careers that they did, I think the management wasn't good enough. Take someone like Ashley Cole, I think he was the best left back of his generation and like the rest he excelled in the highest echelons in football. Outside of England few people considered them world class. The golden generation were only golden to a segment of the English. The segment that didn't watch anyone from other nations play and see how ordinary the golden generation were in comparison. If we were going win a tournament in my lifetime it was 2004. I disagree! I've mainly read Barcelona books but the likes of Xavi and Iniesta think the midfielders are, Carrick too is loved by the Barcelona bunch. Scholes is adored by Xavi apparently. It's only one segment of the footballing world but it's a bit of a good one to be liked by!
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 4, 2015 13:25:48 GMT
And with that group of players we had the talent to do way better and they should have done. I agree but we lost to a very good Brazil side in 2002. Then 2004/2006 both times out on penalties. Id bring Sven back in. Sven was good yeah. But when it was over it really was over. We need to to shed the self pity over penalties. 25 years since the first one and some of us still have the daft attitude it's a lottery. It isn't.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 4, 2015 13:27:19 GMT
Outside of England few people considered them world class. The golden generation were only golden to a segment of the English. The segment that didn't watch anyone from other nations play and see how ordinary the golden generation were in comparison. If we were going win a tournament in my lifetime it was 2004. I disagree! I've mainly read Barcelona books but the likes of Xavi and Iniesta think the midfielders are, Carrick too is loved by the Barcelona bunch. Scholes is adored by Xavi apparently. It's only one segment of the footballing world but it's a bit of a good one to be liked by! Loads say Scholes is one of the greats. He was brilliant. Retired from England too soon.
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