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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Mar 28, 2015 11:49:06 GMT
You're assuming that the co-pilot intended his actions, planned them. From the reports he was acting normally until the pilot started talking about landing. This then, maybe, changed the co-pilots mindset until he was not in control of his actions as his depression, and the thought of going back to his life, descended. In this way he was no different to Carlisle in that he was not responsible for his actions due to his illness for this particular period. As anyone knows who has suffered depression you can be laughing like a bastard one minute, feeling suicidal the next. Nah, he's a murderer. So if someone commits suicide and take someone with them they are a murderer? Just for clarification!
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 28, 2015 11:50:40 GMT
So if someone commits suicide and take someone with them they are a murderer? Just for clarification! Hell yes. Irrespective you shouldn't bring someone else into it. Absolutely no sympathy.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Mar 28, 2015 11:53:44 GMT
So if someone commits suicide and take someone with them they are a murderer? Just for clarification! Hell yes. Irrespective you shouldn't bring someone else into it. Absolutely no sympathy. The fact is bayern I am not defending him taking innocent lives. I am trying to get the thread back to the original post which more or less agrees with what you said. There should be no shame in admitting mental illness! When it affects others then that is a different thing. Latest news www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32098578
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 28, 2015 11:57:10 GMT
Hell yes. Irrespective you shouldn't bring someone else into it. Absolutely no sympathy. The fact is bayern I am not defending him taking innocent lives. I am trying to get the thread back to the original post which more or less agrees with what you said. There should be no shame in admitting mental illness! When it affects others then that is a different thing. I don't there should be shame in admitting mental illness either. Do I think he should feel shame for his actions and involving someone else....yes. Irrespective of not knowing what he was doing I'd still like to feel I'd feel shamed by that and that shame is what should stop you doing it again. Now I know it's not that simple but if it's there when you're feeling rational I'd like to think it can reinforce the point.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Mar 28, 2015 12:07:39 GMT
The fact is bayern I am not defending him taking innocent lives. I am trying to get the thread back to the original post which more or less agrees with what you said. There should be no shame in admitting mental illness! When it affects others then that is a different thing. I don't there should be shame in admitting mental illness either. Do I think he should feel shame for his actions and involving someone else....yes. Irrespective of not knowing what he was doing I'd still like to feel I'd feel shamed by that and that shame is what should stop you doing it again. Now I know it's not that simple but if it's there when you're feeling rational I'd like to think it can reinforce the point. Sorry to be flippant but you can't stop yourself committing suicide again. But I agree with you from a rational thought process. From what others have intimated attempting committing suicide and doing what this co-pilot did is noting to do with rational thought and it is seems to be something that is all consuming. It's about trying to understand why someone could actually crash a plane into a mountain or stepping in front of a train. The only thing I think it may be like is being in a trance like state, the investigator said his breathing never changed despite what was going on around him. It's very chilling from a rational point of view.
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Post by Trouserdog on Mar 28, 2015 12:07:52 GMT
While we're on the subject of hypocrisy... " It is no different at all....At the end of the day, both Clarke Carlisle and this co-pilot took or attempted to take their own life by involving other innocent people, thinking nothing of the impact that it would have on those people or the people they left behind. .... There is no excusing what this co-pilot has seemingly done and the co-pilot is deserving of no sympathy whatsoever. You seemingly agree with this assertion. For me, Clarke Carlisle falls into the same category with the only difference being that he affected the lives of 1 person as opposed to 150."
So it's fair to deduce from those statements that you view Carlisle in the same category as the pilot because his suicide attempt affected the lives of other people. However...a few posts later... "My lack of sympathy for Carlisle was always from the perspective that his "attempted suicide" was a sham, a hiding place for a catalogue of shameful incidents which he was trying to escape and exonerate himself from. It was never because his suicide involved others. As you have said, any suicide attempt, in some way, involves others, be it others who witness, discover or become embroiled in the attempt or those that are left behind to pick up the pieces."err..OK. Which one is it then? I'll ask you again- if every suicide involves and affects other people to varying degrees, would you label all people who take their own lives as selfish and withhold sympathy for them on that basis? No I wouldn't as I've said on numerous occasions having nursed someone through such tendencies myself. For different reasons I have no sympathy for Carlisle or the pilot. My problem is that you do-gooders, supposed occupiers of the moral high ground, having collectively rounded on me for having no sympathy for Carlisle, now seem to think that someone else, who has done something unfathomable that can be attributed to mental illness, isn't deserving of the same understanding and compassion. The only reason for this is the consequence of one action that killed people whilst the other didn't. As I said from the outset, its all about your own moral compass. I'm not going to criticise the direction in which yours points. That's fine- so why just not leave it there? That seems a reasonable conclusion to me- why keep going on and on over the same ground? All people have done is differentiated between the two incidents based on things like outcome and motives. That's the same as you have done between Carlisle's case and your view of other suicides in general. There's no hypocrisy in doing this, it's just common sense- every case is different and needs to be judged on its own merits. I have no idea what makes you such an expert in the case of Carlisle, but I've got no appetite for a tedious debate on the matter, so at this point I'm happy to leave you to whatever conclusion you've made about it. One last thing though- "Do gooders"? really? I would say I expected more from you Dave, but so many people seem to say that to you, perhaps we should all lower our expectations a bit.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 28, 2015 12:11:53 GMT
I don't there should be shame in admitting mental illness either. Do I think he should feel shame for his actions and involving someone else....yes. Irrespective of not knowing what he was doing I'd still like to feel I'd feel shamed by that and that shame is what should stop you doing it again. Now I know it's not that simple but if it's there when you're feeling rational I'd like to think it can reinforce the point. Sorry to be flippant but you can't stop yourself committing suicide again. But I agree with you from a rational thought process. From what others have intimated attempting committing suicide and doing what this co-pilot did is noting to do with rational thought and it is seems to be something that is all consuming. It's about trying to understand why someone could actually crash a plane into a mountain or stepping in front of a train. The only thing I think it may be like is being in a trance like state, the investigator said his breathing never changed despite what was going on around him. It's very chilling from a rational point of view. You can't but I think you can limit the chance of doing again. Having no shame after what he's done won't limit that. I'd be fucking mortified but that's just me. It's scary as hell and in this case at least the processes around it could/should have stopped him. I don't get why the doctors notes never went directly to the airline, it's not like it was important or anything....
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Post by ukcstokie on Mar 28, 2015 12:13:02 GMT
While we're on the subject of hypocrisy... " It is no different at all....At the end of the day, both Clarke Carlisle and this co-pilot took or attempted to take their own life by involving other innocent people, thinking nothing of the impact that it would have on those people or the people they left behind. .... There is no excusing what this co-pilot has seemingly done and the co-pilot is deserving of no sympathy whatsoever. You seemingly agree with this assertion. For me, Clarke Carlisle falls into the same category with the only difference being that he affected the lives of 1 person as opposed to 150."
So it's fair to deduce from those statements that you view Carlisle in the same category as the pilot because his suicide attempt affected the lives of other people. However...a few posts later... "My lack of sympathy for Carlisle was always from the perspective that his "attempted suicide" was a sham, a hiding place for a catalogue of shameful incidents which he was trying to escape and exonerate himself from. It was never because his suicide involved others. As you have said, any suicide attempt, in some way, involves others, be it others who witness, discover or become embroiled in the attempt or those that are left behind to pick up the pieces."err..OK. Which one is it then? I'll ask you again- if every suicide involves and affects other people to varying degrees, would you label all people who take their own lives as selfish and withhold sympathy for them on that basis? No I wouldn't as I've said on numerous occasions having nursed someone through such tendencies myself. For different reasons I have no sympathy for Carlisle or the pilot. My problem is that you do-gooders, supposed occupiers of the moral high ground, having collectively rounded on me for having no sympathy for Carlisle, now seem to think that someone else, who has done something unfathomable that can be attributed to mental illness, isn't deserving of the same understanding and compassion. The only reason for this is the consequence of one action that killed people whilst the other didn't.As I said from the outset, its all about your own moral compass. I'm not going to criticise the direction in which yours points. Not about being a "do-gooder". More about having compassion and understanding for a fellow human being - viewed from a position who has had to deal with loved ones attempting suicide. When you actually see what this illness does to the rational thought of someone - then any decent human being would have a degree of compassion. Just HTF do you know his attempted suicide was a "sham" FFS? If he was doing it for publicity or a cry for help, you'd have to be all screwed up thinking jumping in front of a truck was the way to do it. If you think it was a cover for his other problems, well this has brought masses of coverage to them.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Mar 28, 2015 12:14:10 GMT
Sorry to be flippant but you can't stop yourself committing suicide again. But I agree with you from a rational thought process. From what others have intimated attempting committing suicide and doing what this co-pilot did is noting to do with rational thought and it is seems to be something that is all consuming. It's about trying to understand why someone could actually crash a plane into a mountain or stepping in front of a train. The only thing I think it may be like is being in a trance like state, the investigator said his breathing never changed despite what was going on around him. It's very chilling from a rational point of view. You can't but I think you can limit the chance of doing again. Having no shame after what he's done won't limit that. I'd be fucking mortified but that's just me. It's scary as hell and in this case at least the processes around it could/should have stopped him. I don't get why the doctors notes never went directly to the airline, it's not like it was important or anything.... Patient confidentiality! Oh no don't start a debate about human rights, etc, etc!
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Post by davejohnno1 on Mar 28, 2015 12:15:41 GMT
No I wouldn't as I've said on numerous occasions having nursed someone through such tendencies myself. For different reasons I have no sympathy for Carlisle or the pilot. My problem is that you do-gooders, supposed occupiers of the moral high ground, having collectively rounded on me for having no sympathy for Carlisle, now seem to think that someone else, who has done something unfathomable that can be attributed to mental illness, isn't deserving of the same understanding and compassion. The only reason for this is the consequence of one action that killed people whilst the other didn't. As I said from the outset, its all about your own moral compass. I'm not going to criticise the direction in which yours points. That's fine- so why just not leave it there? That seems a reasonable conclusion to me- why keep going on and on over the same ground? All people have done is differentiated between the two incidents based on things like outcome and motives. That's the same as you have done between Carlisle's case and your view of other suicides in general. There's no hypocrisy in doing this, it's just common sense- every case is different and needs to be judged on its own merits. I have no idea what makes you such an expert in the case of Carlisle, but I've got no appetite for a buy tedious debate on the matter, so at this point I'm happy to leave you to whatever conclusion you've made about it. One last thing though- "Do gooders"? really? I would say I expected more from you Dave, but so many people seem to say that to you, perhaps we should all lower our expectations a bit. I'm not an expert on Clarke Carlisle, nor do I want to be and my comment that you would expect more of is perfectly valid in this context given how previous comments on Carlisle saw me as the devil incarnate. The simple facts are that our moral compass is triggered at different levels. I don't criticise yours yet some on here (I've no recollection if you were one or not) seem to have forgotten themselves somewhat given how quickly they were to label me the devil previously. Anyway I'm away for the weekend now so like you will leave it at that.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 28, 2015 12:18:52 GMT
You can't but I think you can limit the chance of doing again. Having no shame after what he's done won't limit that. I'd be fucking mortified but that's just me. It's scary as hell and in this case at least the processes around it could/should have stopped him. I don't get why the doctors notes never went directly to the airline, it's not like it was important or anything.... Patient confidentiality! Oh no don't start a debate about human rights, etc, etc! Human rights, I hate human rights!
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Post by draytonstokie on Mar 28, 2015 12:31:52 GMT
Pure speculation but I wouldn't mind betting that the main difference between the two individuals cases is the type of mental illness they were suffering from. Clearly Carlisle was suffering from a Mood Disorder which most of us more readily identify with as this includes depression, bi-polar, dysthymia or the blues, whilst the copilot may have been suffering from a schizophrenic/psychotic disorder which whilst both mental illnesses, are completely different having different causes and effects. Does that make him NOT a murderer of course not others have died as a result of his actions Does it mean I have sympathy for him then probably yes. Clearly he was unwell.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Mar 28, 2015 12:43:05 GMT
No I wouldn't as I've said on numerous occasions having nursed someone through such tendencies myself. For different reasons I have no sympathy for Carlisle or the pilot. My problem is that you do-gooders, supposed occupiers of the moral high ground, having collectively rounded on me for having no sympathy for Carlisle, now seem to think that someone else, who has done something unfathomable that can be attributed to mental illness, isn't deserving of the same understanding and compassion. The only reason for this is the consequence of one action that killed people whilst the other didn't.As I said from the outset, its all about your own moral compass. I'm not going to criticise the direction in which yours points. Not about being a "do-gooder". More about having compassion and understanding for a fellow human being - viewed from a position who has had to deal with loved ones attempting suicide. When you actually see what this illness does to the rational thought of someone - then any decent human being would have a degree of compassion. Just HTF do you know his attempted suicide was a "sham" FFS? If he was doing it for publicity or a cry for help, you'd have to be all screwed up thinking jumping in front of a truck was the way to do it. If you think it was a cover for his other problems, well this has brought masses of coverage to them. Yet no compassion for the pilot. How screwed up must his thinking have been? As for Carlisle, I don't know it was a sham, but from what I've read, something doesn't ring true about it all. How do you know it wasn't a sham FFS? You can see only one side of it, like i was accused of doing. Doesn't make either of us right nor does it make either of us the devil. Ps...i don't expect better or worse of anyone I don't know personally because that's just stupid.
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Post by ukcstokie on Mar 28, 2015 13:00:37 GMT
Not about being a "do-gooder". More about having compassion and understanding for a fellow human being - viewed from a position who has had to deal with loved ones attempting suicide. When you actually see what this illness does to the rational thought of someone - then any decent human being would have a degree of compassion. Just HTF do you know his attempted suicide was a "sham" FFS? If he was doing it for publicity or a cry for help, you'd have to be all screwed up thinking jumping in front of a truck was the way to do it. If you think it was a cover for his other problems, well this has brought masses of coverage to them. Yet no compassion for the pilot. How screwed up must his thinking have been? As for Carlisle, I don't know it was a sham, but from what I've read, something doesn't ring true about it all. How do you know it wasn't a sham FFS? You can see only one side of it, like i was accused of doing. Doesn't make either of us right nor does it make either of us the devil. Ps...i don't expect better or worse of anyone I don't know personally because that's just stupid. How many times Dave - we don't what happened yet about the crash. Latest news suggests he was doing it to go down in history. How do I know it wasn't a sham? Because you don't step in front of a truck if all you're doing is trying to cover something up. The reason people have been angered is because your attitude helps allow the stigma which is attached to mental illness. That it's all just voluntary on the part of the sufferer. That they can just make rational decisions. That's why what you're saying is part of the problem.
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Post by bathstoke on Mar 28, 2015 13:48:57 GMT
If that poor lorry driver has crashed and died would that have been manslaughter then I'd have charged him.... Didn't know you is a copper...
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Post by davejohnno1 on Mar 28, 2015 14:28:48 GMT
Yet no compassion for the pilot. How screwed up must his thinking have been? As for Carlisle, I don't know it was a sham, but from what I've read, something doesn't ring true about it all. How do you know it wasn't a sham FFS? You can see only one side of it, like i was accused of doing. Doesn't make either of us right nor does it make either of us the devil. Ps...i don't expect better or worse of anyone I don't know personally because that's just stupid. How many times Dave - we don't what happened yet about the crash. Latest news suggests he was doing it to go down in history. How do I know it wasn't a sham? Because you don't step in front of a truck if all you're doing is trying to cover something up. The reason people have been angered is because your attitude helps allow the stigma which is attached to mental illness. That it's all just voluntary on the part of the sufferer. That they can just make rational decisions. That's why what you're saying is part of the problem. What a load of bullshit. And for the record, not once have I said Carlisle was trying to cover anything up. If he avoids the stint in prison he deserves then I'm pretty well convinced he will see, privately, his bundled suicide attempt as a success. My attitude allows nothing. Im well aware of the fact that mental health issues should be treated as importantly as other illnesses. There is no shame in being mentally ill and those who suffer should never be afraid to seek help. The behaviour of Clarke Carlisle does more to adversely affect the plight of mental health patients than my posts do.
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Post by ukcstokie on Mar 28, 2015 16:23:42 GMT
How many times Dave - we don't what happened yet about the crash. Latest news suggests he was doing it to go down in history. How do I know it wasn't a sham? Because you don't step in front of a truck if all you're doing is trying to cover something up. The reason people have been angered is because your attitude helps allow the stigma which is attached to mental illness. That it's all just voluntary on the part of the sufferer. That they can just make rational decisions. That's why what you're saying is part of the problem. What a load of bullshit. And for the record, not once have I said Carlisle was trying to cover anything up. If he avoids the stint in prison he deserves then I'm pretty well convinced he will see, privately, his bundled suicide attempt as a success. My attitude allows nothing. Im well aware of the fact that mental health issues should be treated as importantly as other illnesses. There is no shame in being mentally ill and those who suffer should never be afraid to seek help. The behaviour of Clarke Carlisle does more to adversely affect the plight of mental health patients than my posts do. You think somebody threw themselves in front of a truck to give himself a small chance of avoiding a short prison sentence? A person who has had a history of depression? And you somehow think that is a "sham"? You really are trying to cover for your shocking first post on the subject (which must rank up there with the most dislikes of any post in Oatcake history). Calling somebody a "coward" who tries to commit suicide? That helps does it? I have no sympathy for Clarke Carlisle whatsoever. He's a weak coward whether by illness or otherwise. I have great sympathy for his wife, child/children who clearly aren't enough to fill his life with joy and the poor driver who was confronted by his suicide bid.
What Clarke is doing is helping. It's bringing the subject out. Hopefully one or two people have been educated a bit on these threads about mental health problems. Clarke has done pretty shitty things - there's no denying that. But you can't decouple those things from his mental health problems.
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Post by mywaydesolzan on Mar 28, 2015 16:39:15 GMT
So in the same way you can "decouple" those things in the case of the First Officer?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Mar 28, 2015 16:45:09 GMT
What a load of bullshit. And for the record, not once have I said Carlisle was trying to cover anything up. If he avoids the stint in prison he deserves then I'm pretty well convinced he will see, privately, his bundled suicide attempt as a success. My attitude allows nothing. Im well aware of the fact that mental health issues should be treated as importantly as other illnesses. There is no shame in being mentally ill and those who suffer should never be afraid to seek help. The behaviour of Clarke Carlisle does more to adversely affect the plight of mental health patients than my posts do. You think somebody threw themselves in front of a truck to give himself a small chance of avoiding a short prison sentence? A person who has had a history of depression? And you somehow think that is a "sham"? You really are trying to cover for your shocking first post on the subject (which must rank up there with the most dislikes of any post in Oatcake history). Calling somebody a "coward" who tries to commit suicide? That helps does it? I have no sympathy for Clarke Carlisle whatsoever. He's a weak coward whether by illness or otherwise. I have great sympathy for his wife, child/children who clearly aren't enough to fill his life with joy and the poor driver who was confronted by his suicide bid.
What Clarke is doing is helping. It's bringing the subject out. Hopefully one or two people have been educated a bit on these threads about mental health problems. Clarke has done pretty shitty things - there's no denying that. But you can't decouple those things from his mental health problems.
Its all chicken and egg though isn't it? Gambling addictions, alcohol addictions, serial drink driving offences, depression, mental illness. What came first? Carlisle, in his own words, says his depression started when he struggled to cope with being Clarke Carlisle rather than Clarke Carlisle the footballer. Well, whilst he was Clarke Carlisle the footballer, he was an alcoholic, a gambler and a serial drink driver. Now he's just Clarke Carlisle he's still all of those things, but now he's depressed as well. Is his plight an inevitable consequence of his mental state or is his mental state a culmination of his misdemeanors, an illness bought about by shame and embarrassment about his consistently appalling behaviour? Some would say its convenient, as one of his friends did whilst others feel sympathy for him and plead for understanding. You sit one side of the fence. I sit the other.
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Post by kjpt140v on Mar 29, 2015 22:02:43 GMT
It's been good
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