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Post by clarkeda on Mar 25, 2015 21:15:29 GMT
I absolutely agree, I suffer badly and was on this thought process. But it is incredibly selfish to end your life directly impact someone else's life with your own actions. When my dad committed suicide it directly impacted my life and has done every single day for the last 27 years and 1 day (the anniversary was yesterday). Not once in that entire time have I ever even come close to thinking what he did was a selfish act. Not once. Suicide amongst men is a huge issue in this country and comments about cowardice and selfishness do nothing to help those suffering to seek help or speak out about what they are going through. My dad was not a coward, he wasn't selfish. If anything, he probably sacrificed his own life because he genuinely believed we'd be better off without him, such was the severity of his illness. You can't rationalise suicide, because it isn't rational. I feel as though I have stumbled into something I didn't intend and any offence cause I apologise. However as I said I have been there and was on watch for about a month at the start of this year. I attempted and am only voicing my opinion how I see things. Maybe I didn't articulate very well and again I apologise. That's the main thing that stopped me, the impact it would have on my immediate contacts, family, ultimately the person who found me.
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Post by Dave the Rave on Mar 25, 2015 21:23:17 GMT
When my dad committed suicide it directly impacted my life and has done every single day for the last 27 years and 1 day (the anniversary was yesterday). Not once in that entire time have I ever even come close to thinking what he did was a selfish act. Not once. Suicide amongst men is a huge issue in this country and comments about cowardice and selfishness do nothing to help those suffering to seek help or speak out about what they are going through. My dad was not a coward, he wasn't selfish. If anything, he probably sacrificed his own life because he genuinely believed we'd be better off without him, such was the severity of his illness. You can't rationalise suicide, because it isn't rational. I feel as though I have stumbled into something I didn't intend and any offence cause I apologise. However as I said I have been there and was on watch for about a month at the start of this year. I attempted and am only voicing my opinion how I see things. Maybe I didn't articulate very well and again I apologise. That's the main thing that stopped me, the impact it would have on my immediate contacts, family, ultimately the person who found me. No offence taken, it's not a topic that makes me angry and I'd certainly never be offended by anyone else's view on it. I only tell people about my experience in the hope that it might help them see another viewpoint and maybe one day even save someone's life. It's a topic that deserves to be talked about.
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Post by draytondave on Mar 25, 2015 21:44:46 GMT
He said on Radio 5 Live that he understands the impact his actions have had on the driver and has tried to contact him. These approaches have been rejected - a position Carlisle says he respects. Isn't the only media work he's doing at the moment about highlighting the issue of mental illness? Has he not also just admitted drink driving? It is one thing taking your own life but another when you could take someone with you.
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Post by kjpt140v on Mar 25, 2015 21:55:15 GMT
I feel as though I have stumbled into something I didn't intend and any offence cause I apologise. However as I said I have been there and was on watch for about a month at the start of this year. I attempted and am only voicing my opinion how I see things. Maybe I didn't articulate very well and again I apologise. That's the main thing that stopped me, the impact it would have on my immediate contacts, family, ultimately the person who found me. No offence taken, it's not a topic that makes me angry and I'd certainly never be offended by anyone else's view on it. I only tell people about my experience in the hope that it might help them see another viewpoint and maybe one day even save someone's life. It's a topic that deserves to be talked about. I think you have a fantastic attitude and with your disposition the positive of your loss is that you talk about your experience and therefore maybe help others. Have you ever thought about talking to groups about what life is like for those left behind. There shouldn't be anger as your father died due to an illness. I don't think it is wrong for people to think the act is selfish because that is a natural reaction. When my father died of cancer, I was incredibly angry with him, I felt that he was selfish leaving his family and causing so much pain for those of us left. It was absolutely irrational to think that way but many do, so when people view suicide as selfish, I find that quite understandable because rational thinking says a choice has been made but it has to remembered that the person who takes their life is not rational and is not the person they have been.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 22:56:52 GMT
I absolutely agree, I suffer badly and was on this thought process. But it is incredibly selfish to end your life directly impact someone else's life with your own actions. When my dad committed suicide it directly impacted my life and has done every single day for the last 27 years and 1 day (the anniversary was yesterday). Not once in that entire time have I ever even come close to thinking what he did was a selfish act. Not once. Suicide amongst men is a huge issue in this country and comments about cowardice and selfishness do nothing to help those suffering to seek help or speak out about what they are going through. My dad was not a coward, he wasn't selfish. If anything, he probably sacrificed his own life because he genuinely believed we'd be better off without him, such was the severity of his illness. You can't rationalise suicide, because it isn't rational. Thoughts with you Dave. I lost my mum to suicide in 1987. I was just 14. I feel very much as you do regarding your Dad. I myself got diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder in 2008 after many years battling anxiety and depression. In 2010 during a very low episode I had to be talked out of jumping in front of a train at Longport station. Looking back now makes me feel terrible for even considering this. Doing that to my wife...my daughter. Putting them through a similar hell to what I myself have had to live with for close to 30 years now. My illness swallowed up everything back then and I could not control my actions. Had it not been for the wonderfull person with me back then I would not be here now. If my illness clouded my family who mean the world to me the last thing on my mind was those on the train. That it terrible and chokes me sick to think that now...back then all I saw was black. Depression is very real and I find it heartbreaking that in 2015...28 years after my mum died this may....the stigma is still there and Psychological Services,although better,is still failing so so many.
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Post by skemstokie on Mar 26, 2015 5:13:28 GMT
This is turning into a really helpful thread,letting people air their thought`s in way that keeps a degree of anonymity but still getting their message across at the same time giving a insight to the condition for those with no personal experience.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 6:27:39 GMT
I think punditry work will be very low down on his list of priorities somehow. I doubt it was on his mind when he thought the only way to help everyone around him was to take his own life. I'm 99% certain he I heard him on Absolute Radio last weekend doing Premier League punditry so in fairness it doesn't appear to be that low down......
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Post by pocklingtonpotter on Mar 26, 2015 6:30:24 GMT
I think punditry work will be very low down on his list of priorities somehow. I doubt it was on his mind when he thought the only way to help everyone around him was to take his own life. I'm 99% certain he I heard him on Absolute Radio last weekend doing Premier League punditry so in fairness it doesn't appear to be that low down...... Just because you are doing something doesn't mean it's a priority. The point was if he had messed up his chances of getting punditry work, it would be not as important compared to the other things he has to deal with at the moment. On the other hand, continuing his work is probably a positive thing for him.
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Post by alster on Mar 26, 2015 9:11:04 GMT
Jesus Christ, not this again. Why are people so quick to judge something they probably don't fully understand? I imagine those who criticise the selfishness of people who consider taking their own lives have never actually suffered from the disease in question. It's easy, and perfectly logical, to make a case against suicide due to the impact it has on others. That said, if somebody is entertaining those thoughts in the first place, it's a safe assumption that logic or reasom are no longer playing a part. I've personally never suffered from the disease and as such, would never cast dispersions on those who have. It's easy enough to abstain from these discussions to save causing offence on a subject you'll probably never understand. It clearly isn't a logical disease and it can strike anybody, from all walks of life. Stephen Fry is a perfect example. Such a talented, successful and much loved personality of our generation. Surely he has it all, including the finances to live a life of luxury. Such a happy person on the outside yet, on the inside, there's a part of him that (at times) wants to end it all. Where's the logic in that? It's a disease that can strike anybody. If you haven't suffered from it, count your lucky stars that you haven't had to go through the misery that others have to on a daily basis. There's absolutely no need for judgement. I'm glad some people out there are beginning to have a better attitude toward those of us who do suffer depression. Clarke has been a troubled soul for a number of years battling depression and alcoholism, yet the stigma remains in many peoples eyes. I wonder if a tv presenter with cancer would be accused of whoring it up in the media, just for trying to get on with what they do for a living whilst also trying to raise awareness and understanding of the disease that is blighting their life. Depression is something that far too many people still think you can just pull yourself together from unfortunately. Its something I've suffered from for most of my life, the vast majority of the time I cope with it and have a normal life. Its something that will always be with me and something that I always, now realise will strike me again in the future often for no logical or explainable reason. I don't get a choice in the matter, its no because I've messed up my life in any way. I haven't. I'm solvent, have a great family and usually no major problems to speak of. In fact if I know why I feel low or depressed it never worries me too much. Its when you have no idea why you feel that way that its so scary. People with almost any other condition get sympathy and understanding (not that I'd want sympathy anyway), people who suffer depression and other mental illness just need to get a grip. Strange.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 9:33:24 GMT
Jesus Christ, not this again. Why are people so quick to judge something they probably don't fully understand? I imagine those who criticise the selfishness of people who consider taking their own lives have never actually suffered from the disease in question. It's easy, and perfectly logical, to make a case against suicide due to the impact it has on others. That said, if somebody is entertaining those thoughts in the first place, it's a safe assumption that logic or reasom are no longer playing a part. I've personally never suffered from the disease and as such, would never cast dispersions on those who have. It's easy enough to abstain from these discussions to save causing offence on a subject you'll probably never understand. It clearly isn't a logical disease and it can strike anybody, from all walks of life. Stephen Fry is a perfect example. Such a talented, successful and much loved personality of our generation. Surely he has it all, including the finances to live a life of luxury. Such a happy person on the outside yet, on the inside, there's a part of him that (at times) wants to end it all. Where's the logic in that? It's a disease that can strike anybody. If you haven't suffered from it, count your lucky stars that you haven't had to go through the misery that others have to on a daily basis. There's absolutely no need for judgement. I'm glad some people out there are beginning to have a better attitude toward those of us who do suffer depression. Clarke has been a troubled soul for a number of years battling depression and alcoholism, yet the stigma remains in many peoples eyes. I wonder if a tv presenter with cancer would be accused of whoring it up in the media, just for trying to get on with what they do for a living whilst also trying to raise awareness and understanding of the disease that is blighting their life. Depression is something that far too many people still think you can just pull yourself together from unfortunately. Its something I've suffered from for most of my life, the vast majority of the time I cope with it and have a normal life. Its something that will always be with me and something that I always, now realise will strike me again in the future often for no logical or explainable reason. I don't get a choice in the matter, its no because I've messed up my life in any way. I haven't. I'm solvent, have a great family and usually no major problems to speak of. In fact if I know why I feel low or depressed it never worries me too much. Its when you have no idea why you feel that way that its so scary. People with almost any other condition get sympathy and understanding (not that I'd want sympathy anyway), people who suffer depression and other mental illness just need to get a grip. Strange. Well done for putting that up here with some of the clowns we sometimes get. Took balls the size of asteroids that. ...and good luck with it.
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Post by foxysgloves on Mar 26, 2015 12:10:38 GMT
I doubt Clarke Carlisle knew exactly what he was trying to do, apart from escape whatever torment he was experiencing.
I'm also pretty sure he didn't want or intend to harm, physically or mentally, anybody else.
It strikes me as pretty harsh to slate him for his behaviour.
Horrible illness.
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Post by spitthedog on Mar 26, 2015 13:02:21 GMT
If he is doing punditry I don't quite understand why he is being criticised for that.
Should people who are either recovering or rehabilitating in some way be excluded from work?
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Post by Squeekster on Mar 26, 2015 13:08:31 GMT
If he is doing punditry I don't quite understand why he is being criticised for that. Should people who are either recovering or rehabilitating in some way be excluded from work? Can of worms mate. I'll start "Ched Evans"
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 13:15:53 GMT
If he is doing punditry I don't quite understand why he is being criticised for that. Should people who are either recovering or rehabilitating in some way be excluded from work? Can of worms mate. I'll start "Ched Evans" ????? hardly like for like is it? is recovering from an illness you have no control over now on a par with rehabilitating or recovering from an event you had full control over and is a criminal act? ludicrous comparison!
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Post by draytondave on Mar 26, 2015 13:23:15 GMT
If he is doing punditry I don't quite understand why he is being criticised for that. Should people who are either recovering or rehabilitating in some way be excluded from work? What about his drink drive charge? Others have had the "he should never play again" line chucked at them for the same offence?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 13:38:00 GMT
If he is doing punditry I don't quite understand why he is being criticised for that. Should people who are either recovering or rehabilitating in some way be excluded from work? What about his drink drive charge? Others have had the "he should never play again" line chucked at them for the same offence? to be honest i can't recall any players having that line thrown at them for drink driving.....drink driving where they ended other people's lives yes but not just for being over the limit
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Post by Squeekster on Mar 26, 2015 14:00:05 GMT
Can of worms mate. I'll start "Ched Evans" ????? hardly like for like is it? is recovering from an illness you have no control over now on a par with rehabilitating or recovering from an event you had full control over and is a criminal act? ludicrous comparison! I think you'll find that prison is classed as rehabilitation regardless of control and coming out and trying to integrate back into normal life is also defined as rehabilitation!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 15:58:53 GMT
????? hardly like for like is it? is recovering from an illness you have no control over now on a par with rehabilitating or recovering from an event you had full control over and is a criminal act? ludicrous comparison! I think you'll find that prison is classed as rehabilitation regardless of control and coming out and trying to integrate back into normal life is also defined as rehabilitation! thanks...i'm aware of what the word means but for you to try to liken the 2 situations and say "He's opening a can of worms" is well, utter garbage! there's a little thing called context!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 16:40:22 GMT
I'm 99% certain he I heard him on Absolute Radio last weekend doing Premier League punditry so in fairness it doesn't appear to be that low down...... Just because you are doing something doesn't mean it's a priority. The point was if he had messed up his chances of getting punditry work, it would be not as important compared to the other things he has to deal with at the moment. On the other hand, continuing his work is probably a positive thing for him. Not disagreeing with you at all, just saying that he does appear to be back working........
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Post by mywaydesolzan on Mar 26, 2015 18:14:13 GMT
If he is doing punditry I don't quite understand why he is being criticised for that. Should people who are either recovering or rehabilitating in some way be excluded from work? Can of worms mate. I'll start "Ched Evans" Absolute can of worms. A First Officer just crashed a plane into the side of a mountain killing 144 souls. No link to terrorism and apparent history of depression. He is being accused of murder by the national media.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 22:58:58 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 26, 2015 23:03:08 GMT
Can of worms mate. I'll start "Ched Evans" Absolute can of worms. A First Officer just crashed a plane into the side of a mountain killing 144 souls. No link to terrorism and apparent history of depression. He is being accused of murder by the national media. It is murder.....
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Post by salopstick on Mar 26, 2015 23:42:56 GMT
Absolute can of worms. A First Officer just crashed a plane into the side of a mountain killing 144 souls. No link to terrorism and apparent history of depression. He is being accused of murder by the national media. It is murder..... If that poor lorry driver has crashed and died would that have been manslaughter then
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 26, 2015 23:46:30 GMT
If that poor lorry driver has crashed and died would that have been manslaughter then I'd have charged him....
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Post by spitthedog on Mar 27, 2015 2:02:40 GMT
If he is doing punditry I don't quite understand why he is being criticised for that. Should people who are either recovering or rehabilitating in some way be excluded from work? Can of worms mate. I'll start "Ched Evans" Great comparison that! Comparing someone recovering from depression with a convicted rapist!
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Post by draytondave on Mar 27, 2015 6:42:38 GMT
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Post by Squeekster on Mar 27, 2015 7:35:44 GMT
Can of worms mate. I'll start "Ched Evans" Great comparison that! Comparing someone recovering from depression with a convicted rapist! I Didn't compare I was referring how both were trying to rehabilitate them selves back in normal life. I said open a can of worms. Is Ched Evans going through rehabilitation?
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Post by spitthedog on Mar 27, 2015 8:33:55 GMT
Great comparison that! Comparing someone recovering from depression with a convicted rapist! I Didn't compare I was referring how both were trying to rehabilitate them selves back in normal life. I said open a can of worms. Is Ched Evans going through rehabilitation? The word rehabilitation does not only apply to rehabilitation of criminal behaviour. This was not the context in which I used it. That was your interpretation. I used it in the context of one who is recovering from an illness.
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Post by Squeekster on Mar 27, 2015 8:51:52 GMT
I Didn't compare I was referring how both were trying to rehabilitate them selves back in normal life. I said open a can of worms. Is Ched Evans going through rehabilitation? The word rehabilitation does not only apply to rehabilitation of criminal behaviour. This was not the context in which I used it. That was your interpretation. I used it in the context of one who is recovering from an illness. It's like most things you can determine them how you want ( I should be a politician),I think the point here is that as a sufferer myself (not for long time now thankfully) I sympathize with Clarke but that doesn't make what he did right does it? My friends dad was a train driver and someone threw themselves in front of the train he was driving and was killed very brutally in front of him and it destroyed him broke up the family and is still affecting him now 20 years later now.
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Post by Trouserdog on Mar 27, 2015 11:30:33 GMT
The word rehabilitation does not only apply to rehabilitation of criminal behaviour. This was not the context in which I used it. That was your interpretation. I used it in the context of one who is recovering from an illness. It's like most things you can determine them how you want ( I should be a politician),I think the point here is that as a sufferer myself (not for long time now thankfully) I sympathize with Clarke but that doesn't make what he did right does it? My friends dad was a train driver and someone threw themselves in front of the train he was driving and was killed very brutally in front of him and it destroyed him broke up the family and is still affecting him now 20 years later now. Ched Evans's situation is absolutely irrelevant here...it's not a matter of interpretation, it's just nothing to do with the topic in hand other than the word "rehabilitation" being used in two different contexts. It's the equivalent of turning the discussion towards Carlisle FC because they share the same name as the footballer. Of course what Clarke Carlisle did wasn't "right", and neither would it have been "right" if he'd sat at home in his bathroom and swallowed a bottle of pills. People do irrational things like jump in front of lorries or trains when they are in the depths of despair and incapable of rational thought- that's neither right nor wrong, it's just a fact of life. The challenge shouldn't be to start picking through the law books to question under what set of circumstances a person trying to take their own life is hypothetically culpable for manslaughter as other posters have done (Jesus Christ ) but where we're going wrong as a society that so many young men feel that killing themselves is the only option they've got. It's distasteful to start proclaiming that Carlisle should be convicted for manslaughter if circumstances had transpired to be totally different than they actually were- what's the point? All it does is needlessly reinforce the idea of blaming a mentally ill person for their actions by associating that action with an entirely made-up set of consequences.
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