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Post by kjpt140v on Mar 25, 2015 17:07:11 GMT
As somebody who suffers massively from depression and at time feels death may be the only way out, I can fully understand Clarke Carlisle when he says there is no shame in attempting to end ones life. But Clive may I say that there is shame in involving an innocent person who you didn't know and there is also shame in risking that person's life. As a retired firefighter I have seen the devastation caused to innocent victims of those who have successfully taken their life by throwing themselves in front of a vehicle.
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Post by skemstokie on Mar 25, 2015 17:19:21 GMT
As somebody who suffers massively from depression and at time feels death may be the only way out, I can fully understand Clarke Carlisle when he says there is no shame in attempting to end ones life. But Clive may I say that there is shame in involving an innocent person who you didn't know and there is also shame in risking that person's life. As a retired firefighter I have seen the devastation caused to innocent victims of those who have successfully taken their life by throwing themselves in front of a vehicle. Have great sympathy with Clarke Carlisle as i do with any one who suffer`s this way ,i have had low moments but nothing quite that bad but i do think you have to think through the ultimate fall-out to any extreme actions you consider taking, having said that never been that low .
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Post by mywaydesolzan on Mar 25, 2015 17:26:22 GMT
I agree there should be no shame for his illness. However, does he mention the impact his illness has now had on another individual?
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Post by clarkeda on Mar 25, 2015 17:31:17 GMT
I absolutely agree, I suffer badly and was on this thought process. But it is incredibly selfish to end your life directly impact someone else's life with your own actions.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Mar 25, 2015 17:32:41 GMT
I agree there should be no shame for his illness. However, does he mention the impact his illness has now had on another individual? That's the point! In the article I read he never even mentioned anyone else.
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Post by Squeekster on Mar 25, 2015 17:44:18 GMT
I myself have suffered depression/fear/anxiety not to the extent I want to end my life but I think if I did get that low I don't think I'd be worrying about what happened after my death,of course that's a selfish attitude to take but then I assume if your that low you wouldn't care about the consequences.
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Post by mywaydesolzan on Mar 25, 2015 18:00:39 GMT
I myself have suffered depression/fear/anxiety not to the extent I want to end my life but I think if I did get that low I don't think I'd be worrying about what happened after my death,of course that's a selfish attitude to take but then I assume if your that low you wouldn't care about the consequences. I agreed with that at the time yes. But is he now doing the media, and not recognising the effect his actions had on another individual?
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Post by Trouserdog on Mar 25, 2015 18:30:35 GMT
For what seems like the millionth time on here- if an individual is at the point of wanting to take his/her own life, their thought processes are not rational enough to take into account other people being affected either in the moment or afterwards.
Surely this isn't that hard to understand?
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Post by Squeekster on Mar 25, 2015 18:34:20 GMT
I myself have suffered depression/fear/anxiety not to the extent I want to end my life but I think if I did get that low I don't think I'd be worrying about what happened after my death,of course that's a selfish attitude to take but then I assume if your that low you wouldn't care about the consequences. I agreed with that at the time yes. But is he now doing the media, and not recognising the effect his actions had on another individual? I suppose if you look at it that way you have a point.
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Post by mywaydesolzan on Mar 25, 2015 18:34:29 GMT
For what seems like the millionth time on here- if an individual is at the point of wanting to take his/her own life, their thought processes are not rational enough to take into account other people being affected either in the moment or afterwards. Surely this isn't that hard to understand? That is quite condescending. There are only a handful of posts. You have obviously not been bothered to read them.
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Post by Trouserdog on Mar 25, 2015 18:38:09 GMT
For what seems like the millionth time on here- if an individual is at the point of wanting to take his/her own life, their thought processes are not rational enough to take into account other people being affected either in the moment or afterwards. Surely this isn't that hard to understand? That is quite condescending. There are only a handful of posts. You have obviously not been bothered to read them. Yeah, I read them and already (from the OP onwards) we seem to be heading down the same road this topic, depressingly, always heads down.
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Post by spitthedog on Mar 25, 2015 18:40:53 GMT
Maybe he is still ill and not understanding the implications for the lorry driver is part of that illness? If that is the case, and I'm not sure it is.
I have no idea, it's just that I don't see how I or anyone else on a forum is in a position to make these kinds of judgements or assumptions and in what way these judgements are contributing constructively to this situation.
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Post by mywaydesolzan on Mar 25, 2015 18:43:34 GMT
That is quite condescending. There are only a handful of posts. You have obviously not been bothered to read them. Yeah, I read them and already (from the OP onwards) we seem to be heading down the same road this topic, depressingly, always heads down. No it is not. Apparently now Carlisle is doing media, without recognising there was another victim of his illness. That alone moves the goalposts a considerable degree.
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Post by mywaydesolzan on Mar 25, 2015 18:45:08 GMT
Maybe he is still ill and not understanding the implications for the lorry driver is part of that illness? If that is the case, and I'm not sure it is. I have no idea, it's just that I don't see how I or anyone else on a forum is in a position to make these kinds of judgements or assumptions and in what way these judgements are contributing constructively to this situation. He is doing media work apparentely, come on.
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Post by Trouserdog on Mar 25, 2015 18:46:42 GMT
Yeah, I read them and already (from the OP onwards) we seem to be heading down the same road this topic, depressingly, always heads down. No it is not. Apparently now Carlisle is doing media, without recognising there was another victim of his illness. That alone moves the goalposts a considerable degree. That's gospel is it? Because in the article I read, he did mention the lorry driver and said he could understand why the bloke didn't want to meet him. The OP didn't mention anything about that either- it was just the same old stuff laying blame at the door of a man too ill to account for his actions.
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Post by mywaydesolzan on Mar 25, 2015 18:49:38 GMT
Do you have a link to the article. He may have been too ill to account for his actions that day, but he certainly isn't when he is whoring up to the media.
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Post by Trouserdog on Mar 25, 2015 18:56:43 GMT
Do you have a link to the article. He may have been too ill to account for his actions that day, but he certainly isn't when he is whoring up to the media. I read it in today's Mail (my Mum's copy I hasten to add). I think the bit in bold gives away your agenda- you're going to stick the boot into Carlisle because you don't like him. Well done. I'll leave you to it.
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Post by mywaydesolzan on Mar 25, 2015 19:02:33 GMT
Do you have a link to the article. He may have been too ill to account for his actions that day, but he certainly isn't when he is whoring up to the media. I read it in today's Mail (my Mum's copy I hasten to add). I think the bit in bold gives away your agenda- you're going to stick the boot into Carlisle because you don't like him. Well done. I'll leave you to it. Well ok but if that is the impression you get it is a false one. I have defended him on here in previous threads.
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Post by mywaydesolzan on Mar 25, 2015 19:05:23 GMT
Do you have a link to the article. He may have been too ill to account for his actions that day, but he certainly isn't when he is whoring up to the media. I read it in today's Mail (my Mum's copy I hasten to add). I think the bit in bold gives away your agenda- you're going to stick the boot into Carlisle because you don't like him. Well done. I'll leave you to it. Tell your Mum to read that rag online. It will save her a quid a day, and she will still be oblivious as to what is going on in the real world.
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Post by pocklingtonpotter on Mar 25, 2015 19:17:38 GMT
He said on Radio 5 Live that he understands the impact his actions have had on the driver and has tried to contact him. These approaches have been rejected - a position Carlisle says he respects.
Isn't the only media work he's doing at the moment about highlighting the issue of mental illness?
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Post by stokeramblers on Mar 25, 2015 19:19:55 GMT
He said on Radio 5 Live that he understands the impact his actions have had on the driver and has tried to contact him. These approaches have been rejected - a position Carlisle says he respects. Isn't the only media work he's doing at the moment about highlighting the issue of mental illness? Well presumably he's fucked up the chance of any punditry work for the foreseeable future..
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Post by mywaydesolzan on Mar 25, 2015 19:21:57 GMT
He said on Radio 5 Live that he understands the impact his actions have had on the driver and has tried to contact him. These approaches have been rejected - a position Carlisle says he respects. Isn't the only media work he's doing at the moment about highlighting the issue of mental illness? If it is then fair dues. Thanks for posting.
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Post by pocklingtonpotter on Mar 25, 2015 19:22:48 GMT
I think punditry work will be very low down on his list of priorities somehow. I doubt it was on his mind when he thought the only way to help everyone around him was to take his own life.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 19:45:07 GMT
Jesus Christ, not this again.
Why are people so quick to judge something they probably don't fully understand? I imagine those who criticise the selfishness of people who consider taking their own lives have never actually suffered from the disease in question.
It's easy, and perfectly logical, to make a case against suicide due to the impact it has on others. That said, if somebody is entertaining those thoughts in the first place, it's a safe assumption that logic or reasom are no longer playing a part.
I've personally never suffered from the disease and as such, would never cast dispersions on those who have. It's easy enough to abstain from these discussions to save causing offence on a subject you'll probably never understand.
It clearly isn't a logical disease and it can strike anybody, from all walks of life. Stephen Fry is a perfect example. Such a talented, successful and much loved personality of our generation. Surely he has it all, including the finances to live a life of luxury. Such a happy person on the outside yet, on the inside, there's a part of him that (at times) wants to end it all. Where's the logic in that?
It's a disease that can strike anybody. If you haven't suffered from it, count your lucky stars that you haven't had to go through the misery that others have to on a daily basis. There's absolutely no need for judgement.
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Post by spitthedog on Mar 25, 2015 19:55:00 GMT
Maybe he is still ill and not understanding the implications for the lorry driver is part of that illness? If that is the case, and I'm not sure it is. I have no idea, it's just that I don't see how I or anyone else on a forum is in a position to make these kinds of judgements or assumptions and in what way these judgements are contributing constructively to this situation. He is doing media work apparentely, come on. I heard him on the radio talking about how he had been unsuccesful in trying to contact the lorry driver. So yes he's 'doing media' . If you are going to criticise him or make judgements on that maybe you should check the content of that media first.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Mar 25, 2015 20:26:35 GMT
Do you have a link to the article. He may have been too ill to account for his actions that day, but he certainly isn't when he is whoring up to the media. Whoring up to the media, you are kidding right
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Post by Matthews dad on Mar 25, 2015 20:43:26 GMT
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Post by potter25 on Mar 25, 2015 20:48:30 GMT
His book is a very insightful and honest read
Doesn't blame anyone but himself
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Post by Dave the Rave on Mar 25, 2015 21:01:26 GMT
I absolutely agree, I suffer badly and was on this thought process. But it is incredibly selfish to end your life directly impact someone else's life with your own actions. When my dad committed suicide it directly impacted my life and has done every single day for the last 27 years and 1 day (the anniversary was yesterday). Not once in that entire time have I ever even come close to thinking what he did was a selfish act. Not once. Suicide amongst men is a huge issue in this country and comments about cowardice and selfishness do nothing to help those suffering to seek help or speak out about what they are going through. My dad was not a coward, he wasn't selfish. If anything, he probably sacrificed his own life because he genuinely believed we'd be better off without him, such was the severity of his illness. You can't rationalise suicide, because it isn't rational.
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Post by kjpt140v on Mar 25, 2015 21:08:00 GMT
I'm really pleased that I started this thread. As I have said I have been there, and I fully agree with squeekster when somebody is that low all consequence does go out of the window. But the shame comes as a consequence of the action, in other words when he looks back rationally after his action he should inwardly feel shame not 'ashamed' but shame that he involved somebody else.
The driver in question has been interviewed on TV has said he can't talk to Clarke because he himself is finding the episode difficult to deal with
For somebody to say I have judged Clarke they couldn't be further from the truth if I was to judge him, I would be judging myself. I have caused hurt and pain to those I love and care about. I have lost friends, quite rightly, because of the hurt and pain I have caused them. I look back on many episodes with shame, I was wrong.
Clarke has said that he deals with his problems day by day, I applaud him for saying that, because that is the only way.
So to accuse others they are judging you are actually being judgemental.
The interesting thing about the thread is that it has actually moved away from the debate to a case of attack and defend the subject, it was never to be that way, it was designed to discuss mental health issues. I hope if people continue to contribute they understand that position.
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