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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 22:09:15 GMT
Hess was there to do the deal, how else would he have got a free passage USA played a blinder in the last two world wars, got all the old super powers fighting each other to bankruptcy and destruction whilst financing it all (debts which are still been paid off to this day to the USA) , then joining the wars when these countries where battle weary and looking like the hero's, Hitler gave Britain the chance to do a deal, the yanks got wind of it and the rest is history Hess made a solo flight on the 10th May 1941 in the hope ...I stress in the hope to meet the Duke of Hamilton who he believed was a prominent speaker against the government at the time. He was immediately arrested and never made any talks with Churchill . You are barking up the wrong tree on a number of issues I'm afraid. And he did in fact meet Hamilton ....as you have said to no avail
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Post by lastoftheldk on Jan 25, 2015 22:17:12 GMT
Hess was there to do the deal, how else would he have got a free passage USA played a blinder in the last two world wars, got all the old super powers fighting each other to bankruptcy and destruction whilst financing it all (debts which are still been paid off to this day to the USA) , then joining the wars when these countries where battle weary and looking like the hero's, Hitler gave Britain the chance to do a deal, the yanks got wind of it and the rest is history It was long thought that Hess was working on his own , but it's obvious that Hitler was aware of his plans , the idea was to come to an arrangement with Britain to end the war and enable Hitler to carry on with eradicating Russia as he always planned to do.Churchill was unaware of this and at no time did any negotiations or meetings take place between him an Hess or anyone else ....Hess was then after interrogation had established his motives sent into confinement where he stayed until his death in Spandau in 1988 Bisp, that's another theory, but we will never know, historian's are still arguing about it, I can never understand why he was not released
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Post by lastoftheldk on Jan 25, 2015 22:23:52 GMT
Hess was there to do the deal, how else would he have got a free passage USA played a blinder in the last two world wars, got all the old super powers fighting each other to bankruptcy and destruction whilst financing it all (debts which are still been paid off to this day to the USA) , then joining the wars when these countries where battle weary and looking like the hero's, Hitler gave Britain the chance to do a deal, the yanks got wind of it and the rest is history Hess made a solo flight on the 10th May 1941 in the hope ...I stress in the hope to meet the Duke of Hamilton who he believed was a prominent speaker against the government at the time. He was immediately arrested and never made any talks with Churchill . You are barking up the wrong tree on a number of issues I'm afraid. Mumf, there was a lot more to it than that , it's obvious. There was a lot of powerful people in England who had similar ideas to Hitler, Edward, Phil the Greek, Moseley etc and Winston
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 25, 2015 22:24:09 GMT
Not at all...I'm simply pointing out that he's not the squeaky clean hero that according to Mumf "singlehandedly saved us from Hitler" that some people on here believe him to be. I said " singlehandedly saved us from Hitler ".. He did. I am right. What happened before and after the war I have not commented on. An absolutely ridiculous statement to make.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 22:25:26 GMT
It was long thought that Hess was working on his own , but it's obvious that Hitler was aware of his plans , the idea was to come to an arrangement with Britain to end the war and enable Hitler to carry on with eradicating Russia as he always planned to do.Churchill was unaware of this and at no time did any negotiations or meetings take place between him an Hess or anyone else ....Hess was then after interrogation had established his motives sent into confinement where he stayed until his death in Spandau in 1988 Bisp, that's another theory, but we will never know, historian's are still arguing about it, I can never understand why he was not released He was fortunate I suppose that a lot of the atrocities against the Jews were carried out after his flight to Scotland ......that saved him from the noose , he was a high ranking Nazi who was involved in some terrible stuff pre- war he had to be seen to pay the price of Nazism I suppose ......As a matter of interest my cousins son was one of his guards at Spandau for a period, no personal contact was allowed with him whatsoever, the guards were even not allowed to look him in the eye and made to avert their gaze .
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 25, 2015 22:25:49 GMT
Hess made a solo flight on the 10th May 1941 in the hope ...I stress in the hope to meet the Duke of Hamilton who he believed was a prominent speaker against the government at the time. He was immediately arrested and never made any talks with Churchill . You are barking up the wrong tree on a number of issues I'm afraid. Mumf, there was a lot more to it than that , it's obvious. There was a lot of powerful people in England who had similar ideas to Hitler, Edward, Phil the Greek, Moseley etc Lots of evidence about the "Windsors" links with the Nazis.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 22:34:55 GMT
I said " singlehandedly saved us from Hitler ".. He did. I am right. What happened before and after the war I have not commented on. An absolutely ridiculous statement to make. Ask any Historian ....ask anyone . The answer will always comeback the same. Pointless arguing with you .....you're absolutely puddled.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 22:38:23 GMT
Hess made a solo flight on the 10th May 1941 in the hope ...I stress in the hope to meet the Duke of Hamilton who he believed was a prominent speaker against the government at the time. He was immediately arrested and never made any talks with Churchill . You are barking up the wrong tree on a number of issues I'm afraid. Mumf, there was a lot more to it than that , it's obvious. There was a lot of powerful people in England who had similar ideas to Hitler, Edward, Phil the Greek, Moseley etc and Winston There was rumours , but at no time was Churchill ever implicated. He stood alone. I have no doubt whatsoever that Churchill would ever have negotiated with the Germans.
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Post by lastoftheldk on Jan 25, 2015 22:47:25 GMT
Mumf, there was a lot more to it than that , it's obvious. There was a lot of powerful people in England who had similar ideas to Hitler, Edward, Phil the Greek, Moseley etc and Winston There was rumours , but at no time was Churchill ever implicated. He stood alone. I have no doubt whatsoever that Churchill would ever have negotiated with the Germans. He definitely would have done, it is said that when the Germans surrendered, he purposed the idea that the allies and German forces should join up and attack the soviets
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 22:55:46 GMT
There was rumours , but at no time was Churchill ever implicated. He stood alone. I have no doubt whatsoever that Churchill would ever have negotiated with the Germans. He definitely would have done, it is said that when the Germans surrendered, he purposed the idea that the allies and German forces should join up and attack the soviets No ldk it was the Germans who wanted to join forces with the allies and attack the Soviets .....Churchill however may have looked favourably at it , but he would never have been swayed by it ....his dislike of the Soviets and Stalin was well known , but his hatred of Hitler and the Nazis was greater
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 1:39:47 GMT
Churchill was a great wartime leader of course, not everything he did was to his credit . His role in using the Black & Tans in Ireland for instance He was a great wartime leader mate ......that was the thing that made him possibly the greatest Briton of our modern era , of course there were things that occurred in peace time that don't show him up in such a great light , but he was what he was , a man of his time ,warts and all , and not withstanding that a man ( in my humble opinion) to be greatly admired .
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Post by lawrieleslie on Jan 26, 2015 7:48:49 GMT
He was saving his own neck ....that was all. Hess was there to do the deal, how else would he have got a free passage USA played a blinder in the last two world wars, got all the old super powers fighting each other to bankruptcy and destruction whilst financing it all (debts which are still been paid off to this day to the USA) , then joining the wars when these countries where battle weary and looking like the hero's, Hitler gave Britain the chance to do a deal, the yanks got wind of it and the rest is history historical evidence tells us otherwise. But heaven forbid truth getting in the way of a good conspiracy theory as it might prevent another world war.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Jan 26, 2015 12:19:15 GMT
As with most ultimately successful wars, the politicians at the helm at the time are usually seen in a jingoistically favourable light. Nearly always, the reality is much more complex. Thatcher's image changed almost overnight following the Falklands victory but history has since revealed several positives and just as many negatives of her premiership, not least the latest apparent cover-up of paedophiles in her government. Similarly with Blair, his desperation to win a war with Bush the Imbecile didn't do him much harm at the time but is looking increasingly dodgy and quite probably illegal as time goes by. Churchill was considered a disastrous peace time politician, especially as chancellor in the 20s and mostly ignored during much of the 30s as a result. He also crossed the house twice. Probably why Attlee was given the job of actually running the UK during the War. He also was in favour of letting Gandhi starve to death if he went on hunger strike for Indian independence which Churchill vehemently opposed. Not trying to ridicule his legacy, Bish, just saying a bit of balance, as always, makes for a better analysis. The foaming at the mouth right wingers on here don't do balance Luke...as you well know ;) If you think your posts contain balance, then someone better let you know they are as about as balanced as a giraffe on stilts. Hudyy bringing balance to The Oatcake. (rofl)
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Post by kinetic on Jan 26, 2015 12:33:39 GMT
I got as far as poison gas used on the Iraqis. Thought fuck me that's a bit harsh best have a google. Turns out you little article is bullshit. He sanctioned the use never got used though. I see it mentions about the striking miners as well never happened as another poster has explained in this thread. All ways good cross reference things before you make yourself look like a clown. Or go with your perverted course of the truth? No thanks matey My perverted course !! do you even know who funds that website that you think is factual you dick head ?? The Socialist Workers party that's who talk about perverted We rape are own members then cover it up.
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Post by lordb on Jan 26, 2015 13:00:36 GMT
Seems to me that Churchill got almost everything wrong in his political life until 1940. His greatest act was 'winning' the war cabinet over in May 1940 as there was a fundamental split between those who wanted to surrender/make peace & those who wanted to fight. Had Lord Halifax or almost anyone else been Prime Minister after Chamberlain we would surely not have continued to fight.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 19:14:30 GMT
He was considered a bit of a disaster as a peacetime politician and you wonder how he would be remembered if at all if not for the ultimately successful second world war. Probably as an unimportant footnote. Prior to that even his war record was poor. You need to consider the man in the round really but that rarely happens given the importance of WWII.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 19:50:42 GMT
He was considered a bit of a disaster as a peacetime politician and you wonder how he would be remembered if at all if not for the ultimately successful second world war. Probably as an unimportant footnote. Prior to that even his war record was poor. You need to consider the man in the round really but that rarely happens given the importance of WWII. You could apply the same description to many other figures in history though couldn't you ? It only takes one event to establish someone 's place in History , in Churchill's case the event was spread over a period of five years and given the circumstances and the enormity of the event , he deserves to be judged fairly and squarely on this alone anything that transpired before and after World War II really pales into insignificance in comparison
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Post by lastoftheldk on Jan 27, 2015 0:05:19 GMT
Hess was there to do the deal, how else would he have got a free passage USA played a blinder in the last two world wars, got all the old super powers fighting each other to bankruptcy and destruction whilst financing it all (debts which are still been paid off to this day to the USA) , then joining the wars when these countries where battle weary and looking like the hero's, Hitler gave Britain the chance to do a deal, the yanks got wind of it and the rest is history historical evidence tells us otherwise. But heaven forbid truth getting in the way of a good conspiracy theory as it might prevent another world war. Agree, good theory, what do you think Hess was doing in Scotland, ? Very dramatic pictures
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 2:30:26 GMT
Despite all of the comments decrying the man regarding his Political failings and faults , I will defend the man to the hilt for what he did for Britain during the dark days of World War II ......so Starkiller , Huddy and the rest of the left footed brigade can take a hike as far as I'm concerned ....they also have reason to be grateful for what he did for us .....they just can't see fit to admit it ! .....I do apologise if I appear to be banging this drum excessively ....put it down to me being a foaming at the mouth right winger .
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 14:20:16 GMT
Despite all of the comments decrying the man regarding his Political failings and faults , I will defend the man to the hilt for what he did for Britain during the dark days of World War II ......so Starkiller , Huddy and the rest of the left footed brigade can take a hike as far as I'm concerned ....they also have reason to be grateful for what he did for us .....they just can't see fit to admit it ! .....I do apologise if I appear to be banging this drum excessively ....put it down to me being a foaming at the mouth right winger . That's a bit embarrassing, Bish, not like you at all. I'm not sure many people were questioning his achievement in leading one of the Allies to victory in WWII, just wanting to consider the bloke in the round. To quote you from earlier in this thread, "I'm all for balanced argument myself , it's the only logical way to go about things , but things have to be balanced from all angles don't they ? " Isn't that what was being done, looking at the bloke's history in its entirety and not just concentrating on the ultimate success of WWII? I would say I have been pretty fair in my assessment, I never mentioned his borderline alcoholism or the massive role of the Americans in helping to turn the tide of the War. It's fine for you to love the bloke but I'd say you're not looking at him from all angles. In my first post I said a politician's victory in a war ultimately colours people's judgment of him or her largely as a result of jingoistic patriotism. And that's really what you're doing here.
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Post by bathstoke on Jan 31, 2015 19:11:59 GMT
Despite all of the comments decrying the man regarding his Political failings and faults , I will defend the man to the hilt for what he did for Britain during the dark days of World War II ......so Starkiller , Huddy and the rest of the left footed brigade can take a hike as far as I'm concerned ....they also have reason to be grateful for what he did for us .....they just can't see fit to admit it ! .....I do apologise if I appear to be banging this drum excessively ....put it down to me being a foaming at the mouth right winger . Bish, You're becoming cliche. Yes the fat pissed man worked hard back in his day, but he did luck out a bit. There were so many contributing factors, it would be wrong to single him out & if one does, one has to incur criticism. Other than his Black Dog he had a good life & had nothing to complain about, so WTF are we commemorating a funeral!?!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 19:38:05 GMT
Despite all of the comments decrying the man regarding his Political failings and faults , I will defend the man to the hilt for what he did for Britain during the dark days of World War II ......so Starkiller , Huddy and the rest of the left footed brigade can take a hike as far as I'm concerned ....they also have reason to be grateful for what he did for us .....they just can't see fit to admit it ! .....I do apologise if I appear to be banging this drum excessively ....put it down to me being a foaming at the mouth right winger . Bish, You're becoming cliche. Yes the fat pissed man worked hard back in his day, but he did luck out a bit. There were so many contributing factors, it would be wrong to single him out & if one does, one has to incur criticism. Other than his Black Dog he had a good life & had nothing to complain about, so WTF are we commemorating a funeral!?! You obviously have no idea as to his true worth to this country and its people. Not only to this country ,but civilisation in general. In terms of his esteem and as a bastion of a free world society , there is no greater man. To suggest that " he did luck out a bit " is just a nonsensical throwaway remark . He was without doubt the greatest Prime Minister in terms of his leadership in History. No contest. Not 1% doubt about it.
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Post by bathstoke on Jan 31, 2015 21:17:42 GMT
Bish, You're becoming cliche. Yes the fat pissed man worked hard back in his day, but he did luck out a bit. There were so many contributing factors, it would be wrong to single him out & if one does, one has to incur criticism. Other than his Black Dog he had a good life & had nothing to complain about, so WTF are we commemorating a funeral!?! You obviously have no idea as to his true worth to this country and its people. Not only to this country ,but civilisation in general. In terms of his esteem and as a bastion of a free world society , there is no greater man. To suggest that " he did luck out a bit " is just a nonsensical throwaway remark . He was without doubt the greatest Prime Minister in terms of his leadership in History. No contest. Not 1% doubt about it. I wasn't talking to you Mother£@#&er, but now your here, you'll do. All that nonsense you just spewed is b%!!%#&s, but well done done in treading the same old tired trite. The posh boy just bungled through his life till he found a post that none of his other posh boy mates wanted. He manipulated some folk in his aims & good on him, but no need to £@#& your mother over it...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 21:23:39 GMT
You obviously have no idea as to his true worth to this country and its people. Not only to this country ,but civilisation in general. In terms of his esteem and as a bastion of a free world society , there is no greater man. To suggest that " he did luck out a bit " is just a nonsensical throwaway remark . He was without doubt the greatest Prime Minister in terms of his leadership in History. No contest. Not 1% doubt about it. I wasn't talking to you Mother£@#&er, but now your here, you'll do. All that nonsense you just spewed is b%!!%#&s, but well done done in treading the same old tired trite. The posh boy just bungled through his life till he found a post that none of his other posh boy mates wanted. He manipulated some folk in his aims & good on him, but no need to £@#& your mother over it... What I find most surprising is not the tone and anger of your remarks , but the fact that you mentioned that your wife is a doctor.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 21:48:04 GMT
Despite all of the comments decrying the man regarding his Political failings and faults , I will defend the man to the hilt for what he did for Britain during the dark days of World War II ......so Starkiller , Huddy and the rest of the left footed brigade can take a hike as far as I'm concerned ....they also have reason to be grateful for what he did for us .....they just can't see fit to admit it ! .....I do apologise if I appear to be banging this drum excessively ....put it down to me being a foaming at the mouth right winger . That's a bit embarrassing, Bish, not like you at all. I'm not sure many people were questioning his achievement in leading one of the Allies to victory in WWII, just wanting to consider the bloke in the round. To quote you from earlier in this thread, "I'm all for balanced argument myself , it's the only logical way to go about things , but things have to be balanced from all angles don't they ? " Isn't that what was being done, looking at the bloke's history in its entirety and not just concentrating on the ultimate success of WWII? I would say I have been pretty fair in my assessment, I never mentioned his borderline alcoholism or the massive role of the Americans in helping to turn the tide of the War. It's fine for you to love the bloke but I'd say you're not looking at him from all angles. In my first post I said a politician's victory in a war ultimately colours people's judgment of him or her largely as a result of jingoistic patriotism. And that's really what you're doing here. Well I'm not embarrassed in the slightest , from what I've seen on here there has been more than enough assesment of the man's perceived faults and failings than of the ultimate success in World War II , what has his borderline alcoholism got to do with it ? , the effect the Americans had on the outcome of the war is beyond doubt and indisputable., yet if we had not survived alone for two years alone largely thanks to Churchill's leadership their contribution would have been immaterial wouldn't it ?. I don't need reminding in any way of the man's faults and failings ,I'm perfectly well aware of them having studied him and this period of history over many years , he was an inspirational leader, yet he had many failings as a strategist , and had he not been reeled in by his chief of Sir Allan Brooke , he could quite easily have presided over a couple of major military blunders during the war , my judgement of him is not clouded by as you suggest " jingoistic patriotism " but by an understanding of what he achieved under circumstances that would have caused lesser men to have cracked and thrown in the towel , which would have ultimately lead to the defeat of Britain , so I look at him from the angle that I feel is the most relevant and important one . However you are more than entitled to express your opinions on the subject , obviously and unsurprisingly we differ to a wide degree , no problem with that at all. Jingoistic I am certainly not , Patriotic I certainly am .
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 21:58:19 GMT
Despite all of the comments decrying the man regarding his Political failings and faults , I will defend the man to the hilt for what he did for Britain during the dark days of World War II ......so Starkiller , Huddy and the rest of the left footed brigade can take a hike as far as I'm concerned ....they also have reason to be grateful for what he did for us .....they just can't see fit to admit it ! .....I do apologise if I appear to be banging this drum excessively ....put it down to me being a foaming at the mouth right winger . Bish, You're becoming cliche. Yes the fat pissed man worked hard back in his day, but he did luck out a bit. There were so many contributing factors, it would be wrong to single him out & if one does, one has to incur criticism. Other than his Black Dog he had a good life & had nothing to complain about, so WTF are we commemorating a funeral!?! Well there is nothing like a good cliche is there ? I conceed that it's not really neccessary to commemorate a funeral , it's something that tends to happen when an event concerning a major historical figure takes place , I know it's hard but sometimes you really have to put politics and personal dislikes to one side and look at thing in the way that they should be looked at , that's just my opinion , you are quite welcome to yours
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 22:02:05 GMT
You obviously have no idea as to his true worth to this country and its people. Not only to this country ,but civilisation in general. In terms of his esteem and as a bastion of a free world society , there is no greater man. To suggest that " he did luck out a bit " is just a nonsensical throwaway remark . He was without doubt the greatest Prime Minister in terms of his leadership in History. No contest. Not 1% doubt about it. I wasn't talking to you Mother£@#&er, but now your here, you'll do. All that nonsense you just spewed is b%!!%#&s, but well done done in treading the same old tired trite. The posh boy just bungled through his life till he found a post that none of his other posh boy mates wanted. He manipulated some folk in his aims & good on him, but no need to £@#& your mother over it... You really are misinformed about the history of that period ....still you believe what you want to believe mate .
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 22:40:09 GMT
You obviously have no idea as to his true worth to this country and its people. Not only to this country ,but civilisation in general. In terms of his esteem and as a bastion of a free world society , there is no greater man. To suggest that " he did luck out a bit " is just a nonsensical throwaway remark . He was without doubt the greatest Prime Minister in terms of his leadership in History. No contest. Not 1% doubt about it. I wasn't talking to you Mother£@#&er, but now your here, you'll do. All that nonsense you just spewed is b%!!%#&s, but well done done in treading the same old tired trite. The posh boy just bungled through his life till he found a post that none of his other posh boy mates wanted. He manipulated some folk in his aims & good on him, but no need to £@#& your mother over it... What does " posh boy " have to do with the context of the argument ? Surely the politics of dislike are not relevant to it ?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 22:56:12 GMT
To quote him.... "He manipulated some folk in his aims & good on him , but no need to fuck your mother over it ..." One can only hope that is wife has studied psychiatry , or perhaps she just felt compelled to help ...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 23:23:33 GMT
To quote him.... "He manipulated some folk in his aims & good on him , but no need to fuck your mother over it ..." One can only hope that is wife has studied psychiatry , or perhaps she just felt compelled to help ... The remarks of someone with a very shallow argument I would say ....I'm not sure I completely understand them ?
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