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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 2, 2014 13:37:44 GMT
Oh so the tax cuts are going to be paid for by austerity, i.e. the poorest in society. Old school Tory redistribution of wealth at its finest. Some of us are happy with this method of redistribution. I want the poor to be poor enough that actually makes them get off their arses and take the jobs on offer. What did Cameron lie about yesterday by the way? Are you really buying into the heinous Tory lie that the only barrier to employment is laziness? Even if we indulge that fabrication for a moment the 'work shy ' aren't the only ones being punished to pay for tax cuts for the wealthy are they? We have the severely and terminally ill forced back into work, old women who've lived in the same house for 30 years forced out and worse topping themselves because of the bedroom tax. It's all a bit of a high price to pay to see a bunch of 'in it all together' haven't got a clue Tories wank each other off about some mythical tax cuts for my tastes.
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Post by mcf on Oct 2, 2014 13:52:59 GMT
Some of us are happy with this method of redistribution. I want the poor to be poor enough that actually makes them get off their arses and take the jobs on offer. What did Cameron lie about yesterday by the way? Are you really buying into the heinous Tory lie that the only barrier to employment is laziness? Even if we indulge that fabrication for a moment the 'work shy ' aren't the only ones being punished to pay for tax cuts for the wealthy are they? We have the severely and terminally ill forced back into work, old women who've lived in the same house for 30 years forced out and worse topping themselves because of the bedroom tax. It's all a bit of a high price to pay to see a bunch of 'in it all together' haven't got a clue Tories wank each other off about some mythical tax cuts for my tastes. I've seen laziness aplenty with my own eyes so it most certainly isn't a fabrication. There will be always unfortunate isolated incidents and I think it's wrong to blame the Tories for them. People died in Stafford in the NHS under Labour's watch and if I wanted to apply the same logic as you then I'd say that I could easily justifying never voting Labour on the basis that they will cause the death of people too couldn't I!? Never mind the other 101 reasons why I would never vote the usless fuckpigs
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Post by kbillyh on Oct 2, 2014 14:21:34 GMT
Are you really buying into the heinous Tory lie that the only barrier to employment is laziness? Even if we indulge that fabrication for a moment the 'work shy ' aren't the only ones being punished to pay for tax cuts for the wealthy are they? We have the severely and terminally ill forced back into work, old women who've lived in the same house for 30 years forced out and worse topping themselves because of the bedroom tax. It's all a bit of a high price to pay to see a bunch of 'in it all together' haven't got a clue Tories wank each other off about some mythical tax cuts for my tastes. I've seen laziness aplenty with my own eyes so it most certainly isn't a fabrication. There will be always unfortunate isolated incidents and I think it's wrong to blame the Tories for them. People died in Stafford in the NHS under Labour's watch and if I wanted to apply the same logic as you then I'd say that I could easily justifying never voting Labour on the basis that they will cause the death of people too couldn't I!? Never mind the other 101 reasons why I would never vote the usless fuckpigs Yes is the answer then. Remarkable really but there you go.
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Post by kbillyh on Oct 2, 2014 14:32:46 GMT
Feel free to point out how the coalition have accelerated this process then, what have they actually privatised at all ? It would have to be something massive compared to the privatisation of GP practices and ownership of hospitals. Come on Huddy how hard can it be to find evidence of this accelerated privatisation of the NHS you made-up mentioned What is it you are after here follow? Are you suggesting that the privatisation of the NHS under the Tories is not happening as fast as it was under the last administration?
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Post by salopstick on Oct 2, 2014 15:21:57 GMT
Come on Huddy how hard can it be to find evidence of this accelerated privatisation of the NHS you made-up mentioned What is it you are after here follow? Are you suggesting that the privatisation of the NHS under the Tories is not happening as fast as it was under the last administration? What we do know is that apart from +/- 1% either way is that th coalition has maintained nha spending So much for labours claim that it is not safe in conservative hands
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 15:23:15 GMT
Some of us are happy with this method of redistribution. I want the poor to be poor enough that actually makes them get off their arses and take the jobs on offer. What did Cameron lie about yesterday by the way? Are you really buying into the heinous Tory lie that the only barrier to employment is laziness? Even if we indulge that fabrication for a moment the 'work shy ' aren't the only ones being punished to pay for tax cuts for the wealthy are they? We have the severely and terminally ill forced back into work, old women who've lived in the same house for 30 years forced out and worse topping themselves because of the bedroom tax. It's all a bit of a high price to pay to see a bunch of 'in it all together' haven't got a clue Tories wank each other off about some mythical tax cuts for my tastes. I suppose they'll be the very few severely and terminally ill cases pulled out by Labour and the likes of the Guardian to maximise anger and fight their cause? On the flipside we have people with disabilities who cry out for work and complain about the difficulty of not been considered for roles for which they're perfectly able. If you're an old woman living in a three bedroom house and there's a queue of families waiting for housing then moving her makes sense to me. Or, would you prefer that people who don't work, can't afford a house or have popped a few little too many cherubs out are handed a form where they can detail what size house they'd like and in which location? - all courtesy of the state. I personally think that the bedroom tax is utter bollocks and you should only be moved if the council has located a suitable alternative for you rather than putting the onus on people to manage it themselves. Don't forget one of the old Labour reasons for mass immigration - 'they're doing the jobs we don't want to do'. Under Thatcher the welfare state backed up people when jobs genuinely didn't exist so there was no alternative. Under New Labour the welfare state was used to maintain living costs for people who either didn't want to work or were getting so much off the state that work wasn't worth it. Spot the difference? Labour and its supporters like to think that they're 'in' with the poor and needy and have a much better appreciation of what it's like to live off the state but, guess what?, it's really easy for anyone with a bit of common sense to know that huge numbers of people take the piss but luckily, the Tories aren't too scared to make this an issue. Labour however, can't wait to pander to the 'poor' and throw good money after bad to maintain their popularity.
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 2, 2014 17:07:33 GMT
Come on Huddy how hard can it be to find evidence of this accelerated privatisation of the NHS you made-up mentioned What is it you are after here follow? Are you suggesting that the privatisation of the NHS under the Tories is not happening as fast as it was under the last administration? I'm after proof of something comparable the tories have privatised with GP practices and the ownership of hospitals if they're privatising it as quickly as you think or something more if it has accelerated as Huddy claims. Should be a piece of piss to find shouldn't it?
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Post by boothenboy75 on Oct 2, 2014 17:46:04 GMT
This should lighten the mood.
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Post by kbillyh on Oct 2, 2014 18:03:42 GMT
What is it you are after here follow? Are you suggesting that the privatisation of the NHS under the Tories is not happening as fast as it was under the last administration? What we do know is that apart from +/- 1% either way is that th coalition has maintained nha spending So much for labours claim that it is not safe in conservative hands No answers to the questions and then another dubious statistic put forward as fact. I could ask more but it seems a bit pointless when you just churn out the tory party spin as a response. Leave you to it mate, good luck.
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Post by kbillyh on Oct 2, 2014 18:05:10 GMT
What is it you are after here follow? Are you suggesting that the privatisation of the NHS under the Tories is not happening as fast as it was under the last administration? I'm after proof of something comparable the tories have privatised with GP practices and the ownership of hospitals if they're privatising it as quickly as you think or something more if it has accelerated as Huddy claims. Should be a piece of piss to find shouldn't it? Yeah, should be, give me a few mins.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Oct 2, 2014 18:13:09 GMT
What we do know is that apart from +/- 1% either way is that th coalition has maintained nha spending So much for labours claim that it is not safe in conservative hands No answers to the questions and then another dubious statistic put forward as fact. I could ask more but it seems a bit pointless when you just churn out the tory party spin as a response. Leave you to it mate, good luck. In a nutshell spending on the NHS went up from about £60 billion in 1997 to £140 billion in 2010. This increase was never properly recovered by increasing taxation or decreasing spending elsewhere. It remains at around £140 billion today. So this coalition government have continued to spend record high levels of money on the NHS. Hardly the ruination of the NHS is it?
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Post by kbillyh on Oct 2, 2014 18:19:55 GMT
What is it you are after here follow? Are you suggesting that the privatisation of the NHS under the Tories is not happening as fast as it was under the last administration? I'm after proof of something comparable the tories have privatised with GP practices and the ownership of hospitals if they're privatising it as quickly as you think or something more if it has accelerated as Huddy claims. Should be a piece of piss to find shouldn't it? Here's a website you may be interested in browsing: www.nhsforsale.info/privatisation-list/contract-alert/contract-alert-report-april-april.htmlAnd here is over 19 billion worth of contracts, all of which can be investigated further to be proven to be correct. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x0KKRgLD9iKDVZs0xCU5COcCc68GJv52uaL6odbseH4/pubhtmlThey don't want us to know about these which is why you probably assume it isn't happening. Enough?
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Post by kbillyh on Oct 2, 2014 18:39:01 GMT
No answers to the questions and then another dubious statistic put forward as fact. I could ask more but it seems a bit pointless when you just churn out the tory party spin as a response. Leave you to it mate, good luck. In a nutshell spending on the NHS went up from about £60 billion in 1997 to £140 billion in 2010. This increase was never properly recovered by increasing taxation or decreasing spending elsewhere. It remains at around £140 billion today. So this coalition government have continued to spend record high levels of money on the NHS. Hardly the ruination of the NHS is it? So despite them claiming for years that they have been spending more on the NHS you say that they have been spending the same? In real terms that means they are spending less does it not? Fact is front line services are suffering and in the meantime they are selling chunks off to their party donors and mates. Textbook privatisation tactic, Underfund the service until it struggles, say it's not working then sell it off as a solution. We are moving into an era of commercialism and profit coming before care and people.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Oct 2, 2014 18:42:51 GMT
Are you really buying into the heinous Tory lie that the only barrier to employment is laziness? Even if we indulge that fabrication for a moment the 'work shy ' aren't the only ones being punished to pay for tax cuts for the wealthy are they? We have the severely and terminally ill forced back into work, old women who've lived in the same house for 30 years forced out and worse topping themselves because of the bedroom tax. It's all a bit of a high price to pay to see a bunch of 'in it all together' haven't got a clue Tories wank each other off about some mythical tax cuts for my tastes. I suppose they'll be the very few severely and terminally ill cases pulled out by Labour and the likes of the Guardian to maximise anger and fight their cause? On the flipside we have people with disabilities who cry out for work and complain about the difficulty of not been considered for roles for which they're perfectly able. If you're an old woman living in a three bedroom house and there's a queue of families waiting for housing then moving her makes sense to me. Or, would you prefer that people who don't work, can't afford a house or have popped a few little too many cherubs out are handed a form where they can detail what size house they'd like and in which location? - all courtesy of the state. I personally think that the bedroom tax is utter bollocks and you should only be moved if the council has located a suitable alternative for you rather than putting the onus on people to manage it themselves. Don't forget one of the old Labour reasons for mass immigration - 'they're doing the jobs we don't want to do'. Under Thatcher the welfare state backed up people when jobs genuinely didn't exist so there was no alternative. Under New Labour the welfare state was used to maintain living costs for people who either didn't want to work or were getting so much off the state that work wasn't worth it. Spot the difference? Labour and its supporters like to think that they're 'in' with the poor and needy and have a much better appreciation of what it's like to live off the state but, guess what?, it's really easy for anyone with a bit of common sense to know that huge numbers of people take the piss but luckily, the Tories aren't too scared to make this an issue. Labour however, can't wait to pander to the 'poor' and throw good money after bad to maintain their popularity. The laziest bastards I've ever met had jobs..most of them in senior positions.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Oct 2, 2014 18:45:24 GMT
In a nutshell spending on the NHS went up from about £60 billion in 1997 to £140 billion in 2010. This increase was never properly recovered by increasing taxation or decreasing spending elsewhere. It remains at around £140 billion today. So this coalition government have continued to spend record high levels of money on the NHS. Hardly the ruination of the NHS is it? So despite them claiming for years that they have been spending more on the NHS you say that they have been spending the same? In real terms that means they are spending less does it not? Fact is front line services are suffering and in the meantime they are selling chunks off to their party donors and mates. Textbook privatisation tactic, Underfund the service until it struggles, say it's not working then sell it off as a solution. We are moving into an era of commercialism and profit coming before care and people. Sorry should of said, the figures given were all 2013 prices. So my figures are that spending in real terms is about the same. The point I'm making is the Tories say it's gone up (by the tiniest fraction) and labour says it's gone down (by the tiniest fraction). I think you can say therefore that it's about the same as in 2010, which everyone agrees was a time of record spending on the NHS. You can argue that even more should be spent in the NHS but I'm afraid Ed's talking out of his arse when he tries to paint a picture of cuts to the NHS budget.
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Post by kbillyh on Oct 2, 2014 18:55:08 GMT
So despite them claiming for years that they have been spending more on the NHS you say that they have been spending the same? In real terms that means they are spending less does it not? Fact is front line services are suffering and in the meantime they are selling chunks off to their party donors and mates. Textbook privatisation tactic, Underfund the service until it struggles, say it's not working then sell it off as a solution. We are moving into an era of commercialism and profit coming before care and people. Sorry should of said, the figures given were all 2013 prices. So my figures are that spending in real terms is about the same. The point I'm making is the Tories say it's gone up (by the tiniest fraction) and labour says it's gone down (by the tiniest fraction). I think you can say therefore that it's about the same as in 2010, which everyone agrees was a time of record spending on the NHS. You can argue that even more should be spent in the NHS but I'm afraid Ed's talking out of his arse when he tries to paint a picture of cuts to the NHS budget. Oh don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of the other millionaire bloke claiming to be a champion of the people either. Not speaking about yourself here but i find it really strange that whenever Cameron gets a deserved slating on here other posters immediately assume that anything he does can be justified by quoting Labour, like this proves he isn't a cunt or something.
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Post by salopstick on Oct 2, 2014 19:05:45 GMT
Sorry should of said, the figures given were all 2013 prices. So my figures are that spending in real terms is about the same. The point I'm making is the Tories say it's gone up (by the tiniest fraction) and labour says it's gone down (by the tiniest fraction). I think you can say therefore that it's about the same as in 2010, which everyone agrees was a time of record spending on the NHS. You can argue that even more should be spent in the NHS but I'm afraid Ed's talking out of his arse when he tries to paint a picture of cuts to the NHS budget. Oh don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of the other millionaire bloke claiming to be a champion of the people either. Not speaking about yourself here but i find it really strange that whenever Cameron gets a deserved slating on here other posters immediately assume that anything he does can be justified by quoting Labour, like this proves he isn't a cunt or something. That may be true but cameron gets undeserved slatings on here too People are quick to slate him but never him credit when he deserves it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 19:24:59 GMT
Are you really buying into the heinous Tory lie that the only barrier to employment is laziness? Even if we indulge that fabrication for a moment the 'work shy ' aren't the only ones being punished to pay for tax cuts for the wealthy are they? We have the severely and terminally ill forced back into work, old women who've lived in the same house for 30 years forced out and worse topping themselves because of the bedroom tax. It's all a bit of a high price to pay to see a bunch of 'in it all together' haven't got a clue Tories wank each other off about some mythical tax cuts for my tastes. I've seen laziness aplenty with my own eyes so it most certainly isn't a fabrication. There will be always unfortunate isolated incidents and I think it's wrong to blame the Tories for them. People died in Stafford in the NHS under Labour's watch and if I wanted to apply the same logic as you then I'd say that I could easily justifying never voting Labour on the basis that they will cause the death of people too couldn't I!? Never mind the other 101 reasons why I would never vote the usless fuckpigs That is your logic, in almost all cases! (I put an exclamation mark, but I'm not joking). I remember you arguing against the well accepted fact (by John Redwood amongst others (he's a Tory btw to save you checking)) that the NHS had declined in quality under the 18 years of the last Tory governments and needed investment by simply saying you had used it personally and it seemed perfectly ok! Never mind what anyone else's experience might have been or looking at things like waiting lists, mortality rates, crumbling hospitals etc, you were ok so it must have been ok too. Hmmm, I'm ok, so nothing else is of importance....I detect a theme there!
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Post by kbillyh on Oct 2, 2014 19:29:48 GMT
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of the other millionaire bloke claiming to be a champion of the people either. Not speaking about yourself here but i find it really strange that whenever Cameron gets a deserved slating on here other posters immediately assume that anything he does can be justified by quoting Labour, like this proves he isn't a cunt or something. That may be true but cameron gets undeserved slatings on here too People are quick to slate him but never him credit when he deserves it. He never deserves credit. He is a self serving slimy career politician with an absolute lack of understanding or empathy for anybody other than his own kind. I could write a few chapters on how much i hate that cunt, in fact a fucking book. Anybody who falls for the shit his kind spout is an idiot in my book, that includes you Salop, but that's politics eh? No offence.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 19:31:06 GMT
You've only got to look at the number of MPs (mainly Tories, but also Labour and LD) who have bought stock in private medical provision companies and similar organisations in recent years to see where the NHS is heading.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Oct 2, 2014 19:36:53 GMT
Sorry should of said, the figures given were all 2013 prices. So my figures are that spending in real terms is about the same. The point I'm making is the Tories say it's gone up (by the tiniest fraction) and labour says it's gone down (by the tiniest fraction). I think you can say therefore that it's about the same as in 2010, which everyone agrees was a time of record spending on the NHS. You can argue that even more should be spent in the NHS but I'm afraid Ed's talking out of his arse when he tries to paint a picture of cuts to the NHS budget. Oh don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of the other millionaire bloke claiming to be a champion of the people either. Not speaking about yourself here but i find it really strange that whenever Cameron gets a deserved slating on here other posters immediately assume that anything he does can be justified by quoting Labour, like this proves he isn't a cunt or something. As I said earlier in the thread I've never voted tory, and it's a mark of how piss poor Ed Miliband and his bunch of jokers are that I'd even consider voting tory now. I think he annoys me more than any other politician, with the exception of Ed Balls obviously. His nasal voice, frankly strange looks could be overcome if he wasn't such a gobshite. He has no clear policies other than the policies of envy, and coming from such a priveleged backgroung himself, it just makes him look a complete and utter dick.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Oct 2, 2014 19:46:10 GMT
You've only got to look at the number of MPs (mainly Tories, but also Labour and LD) who have bought stock in private medical provision companies and similar organisations in recent years to see where the NHS is heading. I don't think you needed insider knowledge or be a financial whizzkid to work that out though.
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Post by kbillyh on Oct 2, 2014 19:56:25 GMT
You've only got to look at the number of MPs (mainly Tories, but also Labour and LD) who have bought stock in private medical provision companies and similar organisations in recent years to see where the NHS is heading. I don't think you needed insider knowledge or be a financial whizzkid to work that out though. Think you'd be surprised. Not many people even know what is happening, not been much about it on the BBC or in the papers over the last few years, seems they are all complicit in this stealthy theft of an NHS that is ours, or was ours. I even heard Cameron say last week that it wasn't been sold off, how much of a blatant lie can you get....blatant enough to get coverage all over the place without any serious questions asked it seems.
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Post by followyoudown on Oct 2, 2014 21:42:20 GMT
The healthcare budget is £140 billion a year, you have provided a list of contracts totalling £19 billion presumably these are 3,5,10 year or whatever contracts so in actual fact it is a tiny proportion of the overall budget. I've also read the other links and the list of services includes pharmacy, home care and other non critical medical services, purchasing and administration etc etc So to me it's not quite the privatisation of the NHS that is being made out, the NHS pays companies to provide services to the NHS so they retain “ownership”, to me privatisation is the wholesale selling off like BT, British Gas this is more akin to outsourcing. So no not enough to demonstrate the scaremongering about the privatisation of the NHS.
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Post by elsidibe on Oct 3, 2014 7:30:24 GMT
Far be it from me to defend Stoke City Council - it's a horrid, corrupt little clique borne as you correctly point out from mindless political tribalism. But IF the country is to have HS2 foisted upon it then it bloody well better stop in Stoke or the city is finished. It isn't going to be stopping in Stoke-on-Trent not only was the council solution to add an extra stop but for it to share a line with the local commuter trains which kind of defeats the object of having a dedicated high speed line so don't be holding your breath on that one. Oh I quite agree it's unlikely yeah. Stoke Council must rank as one of the most hopelessly unimaginative and unintelligent organisations on Earth. But on this occasion they're right to try for HS2, however ineffectively, because even the simpletons of the Civic Offices realise that not getting it will be a death knell.
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Post by salopstick on Oct 3, 2014 7:33:15 GMT
Tories ahead in polls for first time in 30 months. Considering ukips risr that's bad news for ed
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Post by kbillyh on Oct 3, 2014 9:17:55 GMT
The healthcare budget is £140 billion a year, you have provided a list of contracts totalling £19 billion presumably these are 3,5,10 year or whatever contracts so in actual fact it is a tiny proportion of the overall budget. I've also read the other links and the list of services includes pharmacy, home care and other non critical medical services, purchasing and administration etc etc So to me it's not quite the privatisation of the NHS that is being made out, the NHS pays companies to provide services to the NHS so they retain “ownership”, to me privatisation is the wholesale selling off like BT, British Gas this is more akin to outsourcing. So no not enough to demonstrate the scaremongering about the privatisation of the NHS. So OVER 19 BILLION worth of public owned services being sold off doesn't constitute an NHS sell off to you? Fair enough if you consider the figure to low to bother with. Sorry, I just thought you were just asking for proof that it was happening because the tories keep saying it isn't.
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Post by salopstick on Oct 3, 2014 9:27:43 GMT
The healthcare budget is £140 billion a year, you have provided a list of contracts totalling £19 billion presumably these are 3,5,10 year or whatever contracts so in actual fact it is a tiny proportion of the overall budget. I've also read the other links and the list of services includes pharmacy, home care and other non critical medical services, purchasing and administration etc etc So to me it's not quite the privatisation of the NHS that is being made out, the NHS pays companies to provide services to the NHS so they retain “ownership”, to me privatisation is the wholesale selling off like BT, British Gas this is more akin to outsourcing. So no not enough to demonstrate the scaremongering about the privatisation of the NHS. So OVER 19 BILLION worth of public owned services being sold off doesn't constitute an NHS sell off to you? Fair enough if you consider the figure to low to bother with. are they sold off or external contracts because there is a difference. if they are outside contracts for set periods then to call them privatisation is scaremongering most departments in the public sector have outside contracts i would expect more than 19bn to be contracted out
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Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 3, 2014 9:29:08 GMT
Tories ahead in polls for first time in 30 months. Considering ukips risr that's bad news for ed For a sitting Government to be ahead in the polls this close to the election is a damning indictment of the opposition, however neither of the big 2 will get an overall majority. It will all depend which lunatic or sell their soul to the devil party holds the balance of power. If Herr Farrage does get 10 seats I can't see any sane party working with him so we will face the prospect of an inert minority Government.
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Post by salopstick on Oct 3, 2014 9:37:04 GMT
Tories ahead in polls for first time in 30 months. Considering ukips risr that's bad news for ed For a sitting Government to be ahead in the polls this close to the election is a damning indictment of the opposition, however neither of the big 2 will get an overall majority. It will all depend which lunatic or sell their soul to the devil party holds the balance of power. If Herr Farrage does get 10 seats I can't see any sane party working with him so we will face the prospect of an inert minority Government. ukips votes are enough to swing seats i cant see them winning 10, farages noteriety may get him a seat the upcoming bi-elections will tell us more. to be honesth lib dems in a compromise government had to concede stuff they dont like to get policies through they do like, it may be selling their soul but its given them a chance to influence that they never would have had. some influence is better than none that message has to be clegg's main campaign message - wether it will work time will only tell. but for credibility if there is another coalition he will have to stay in league with cameron
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