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Post by thedeadlyshart on Aug 1, 2014 16:21:19 GMT
I'm aware. With a four defender formation we should carry at least six defenders in our first team squad. Therefore one or two of the names mentioned would have to be dropped. What I'm saying is I'm not sure Cameron is one of the names to be eliminated.
Exactly.
Bardsley, Ryan, Huth, Muniesa, Wilson, Muniesa.
I don't see who you drop to accommodate Cameron in that six.
For me it's direct competition between Wilson and Cameron, with them both being able to play in midfield as well.
But I would guess that Wilson is ahead of Cameron due to his experience in the Premiership at centre back.
You forgot Pieters. Still a lot to be determined though. I'd be surprised if Bardsley gets a free pass into the starting rb spot. Again the Wilson v. Huth competition doesn't have a clear choice, and then there's Muniesa who could take the ch spot and compete with Pieters for starting lb too. The only lock we have is Ryan. then there's three other starters. Once that's determined you can start saying who or who should not be eliminated, and whether we will give 3 or four spots to those players on the bench. For example, If the starting lineup is Bardlsey Shawcross Huth Muniesa Then you could take Pieters, Wilson, and Cameron for the bench. That gives you cover for five positions with three players on the bench. Again though, it is way too early to tell what even the starting lineup will be, let alone whether or not one of these players will be transferred out on loan or permanently.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Aug 1, 2014 16:23:36 GMT
Why sign a right back who is presumably on a decent wage and offer another right back a new contract? It's either stupid or Cameron ain't going to play right back..... Agreed. Whilst we're at it, now we have Bojan, Diouf can be on his way. We can frig NZonzi off as well since we've added Sidwell on a decent wage too. More likely Walters and Adam.
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Post by FullerMagic on Aug 1, 2014 16:26:44 GMT
Well, this story seems to have come directly from Geoff's camp? (is he still with Beswicks?)
Which suggests he's not exactly sure of his future here and may see which way the wind is blowing.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Aug 1, 2014 16:28:57 GMT
I'm aware. With a four defender formation we should carry at least six defenders in our first team squad. Therefore one or two of the names mentioned would have to be dropped. What I'm saying is I'm not sure Cameron is one of the names to be eliminated. Bardsley, Huth, Shawcross, Wilson, Pieters, Muniesa, I can't see Cameron getting in front of any of those in the pecking order, I realise you said at least six, so there is room for another but if it was only six that would be it imo. I can see Cameron being ahead of Bardsley, Wilson, or Muniesa (if he's used as a bench player). He only played a position other than right back in one game last season. Muniesa could go on loan, Wilson or Cameron could be sold... too many variables. and there's also Palacios who made the bench a lot last season as Whelan's back up. Geoff could replace him too.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 1, 2014 16:31:25 GMT
Exactly.
Bardsley, Ryan, Huth, Muniesa, Wilson, Muniesa.
I don't see who you drop to accommodate Cameron in that six.
For me it's direct competition between Wilson and Cameron, with them both being able to play in midfield as well.
But I would guess that Wilson is ahead of Cameron due to his experience in the Premiership at centre back.
You forgot Pieters. Still a lot to be determined though. I'd be surprised if Bardsley gets a free pass into the starting rb spot. Again the Wilson v. Huth competition doesn't have a clear choice, and then there's Muniesa who could take the ch spot and compete with Pieters for starting lb too. The only lock we have is Ryan. then there's three other starters. Once that's determined you can start saying who or who should not be eliminated, and whether we will give 3 or four spots to those players on the bench. For example, If the starting lineup is Bardlsey Shawcross Huth Muniesa Then you could take Pieters, Wilson, and Cameron for the bench. That gives you cover for five positions with three players on the bench. Again though, it is way too early to tell what even the starting lineup will be, let alone whether or not one of these players will be transferred out on loan or permanently.
Yeah but you wouldn't have Pieters, Wilson AND Cameron on the bench either though would you?
That's the point.
I'm not saying that Cameron is definitely going but (as you seem to agree) something's going to have to give and by simply looking at who's available (considering age and length of contract) and who's been brought in during the summer and considering it all logically, then at the moment I'd suggest it wouldn't be a surprise if Geoff left.
Of course if Huth or N'Zonzi were to leave, then that might change things I guess.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 1, 2014 16:45:37 GMT
Why sign a right back who is presumably on a decent wage and offer another right back a new contract? It's either stupid or Cameron ain't going to play right back..... Agreed. Whilst we're at it, now we have Bojan, Diouf can be on his way. We can frig NZonzi off as well since we've added Sidwell on a decent wage too. Close, one of Walters/Crouch I think will go, Adam will be gone and the hope was Palacios would be fooked off. I don't see why it's so hard to compute....
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 1, 2014 16:47:00 GMT
Well, this story seems to have come directly from Geoff's camp? (is he still with Beswicks?) Which suggests he's not exactly sure of his future here and may see which way the wind is blowing. Yes, they had a meeting the other day. Wonder what that was about. Gary Mellor @mellorgary · Jul 29 Looking forward to having @ge offCameron back for pre season and in the @beswickssports offices tomorrow #usmnt
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Post by Olgrligm on Aug 1, 2014 16:59:18 GMT
He shouldn't be anywhere near the first team in any of his favoured positions and should never again be considered an option at right back. Are we still on about the first team regular from our best ever Season in the Prem? Don't be glib.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Aug 1, 2014 17:04:30 GMT
You forgot Pieters. Still a lot to be determined though. I'd be surprised if Bardsley gets a free pass into the starting rb spot. Again the Wilson v. Huth competition doesn't have a clear choice, and then there's Muniesa who could take the ch spot and compete with Pieters for starting lb too. The only lock we have is Ryan. then there's three other starters. Once that's determined you can start saying who or who should not be eliminated, and whether we will give 3 or four spots to those players on the bench. For example, If the starting lineup is Bardlsey Shawcross Huth Muniesa Then you could take Pieters, Wilson, and Cameron for the bench. That gives you cover for five positions with three players on the bench. Again though, it is way too early to tell what even the starting lineup will be, let alone whether or not one of these players will be transferred out on loan or permanently.
Yeah but you wouldn't have Pieters, Wilson AND Cameron on the bench either though would you?
That's the point.
I'm not saying that Cameron is definitely going but (as you seem to agree) something's going to have to give and by simply looking at who's available (considering age and length of contract) and who's been brought in during the summer and considering it all logically, then at the moment I'd suggest it wouldn't be a surprise if Geoff left.
Of course if Huth or N'Zonzi were to leave, then that might change things I guess.
In that situation that is what I'm saying I would do. BUT this is all so hypothetical, and I'm not picking the team. With Whelan, N'Zonzi, Wilson, Cameron, Palacios and Ness here, plus Sidwell joining we should definitely free up some space in the DM area, but we'd put all our eggs in the Bardsley basket if we sell Cameron. I don't think Wilson has the pace for playing right back, and he certainly didn't do Diouf any favors in the freidnly with Schalke. But yes, in that situation I'd have a bench of those three two attackers and a goalkeeper. The two remaining spots would depend on the attackers who start, Assuming it's: bojan arnie ireland diouf I'd have Crouch and Odemwingie on the bench. N'Zonzi and Whelan as the midfield, Wilson and Cameron can cover those spots. Wingie can cover any spot in the attacking four, and Crouch helps us if we need to start launching it. Replace one of Crouch and Odemwingie with Walters if you'd like, or switch Wilson for Adam. I understand you had to give it context, but it's too early to state it as a given that he won't be even making the bench. Especially when he played so many games for last season and there are plenty of MFW deals in the mix. It's all assuming the hypothetical starting line-up. And that is not the starting line-up I would have chosen... mine would be: Bego Cameron Shawcross Wilson Pieters Whelan N'Zonzi Odemwingie Ireland Arnie Bojan Subs: Butland, Muniesa, Diouf, Adam, Crouch, Bardsley
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 1, 2014 17:32:28 GMT
Yeah but you wouldn't have Pieters, Wilson AND Cameron on the bench either though would you?
That's the point.
I'm not saying that Cameron is definitely going but (as you seem to agree) something's going to have to give and by simply looking at who's available (considering age and length of contract) and who's been brought in during the summer and considering it all logically, then at the moment I'd suggest it wouldn't be a surprise if Geoff left.
Of course if Huth or N'Zonzi were to leave, then that might change things I guess.
In that situation that is what I'm saying I would do. BUT this is all so hypothetical, and I'm not picking the team. With Whelan, N'Zonzi, Wilson, Cameron, Palacios and Ness here, plus Sidwell joining we should definitely free up some space in the DM area, but we'd put all our eggs in the Bardsley basket if we sell Cameron. I don't think Wilson has the pace for playing right back, and he certainly didn't do Diouf any favors in the freidnly with Schalke. But yes, in that situation I'd have a bench of those three two attackers and a goalkeeper. The two remaining spots would depend on the attackers who start, Assuming it's: bojan arnie ireland diouf I'd have Crouch and Odemwingie on the bench. N'Zonzi and Whelan as the midfield, Wilson and Cameron can cover those spots. Wingie can cover any spot in the attacking four, and Crouch helps us if we need to start launching it. Replace one of Crouch and Odemwingie with Walters if you'd like, or switch Wilson for Adam. I understand you had to give it context, but it's too early to state it as a given that he won't be even making the bench. Especially when he played so many games for last season and there are plenty of MFW deals in the mix. It's all assuming the hypothetical starting line-up. And that is not the starting line-up I would have chosen... mine would be: Bego Cameron Shawcross Wilson Pieters Whelan N'Zonzi Odemwingie Ireland Arnie Bojan Subs: Butland, Muniesa, Diouf, Adam, Crouch, Bardsley
Ah right, we're talking at cross purposes then, you're talking about what you would do and I'm talking about what I think could happen.
I fully expect Sidwell to get into the match day 18 and I fully expect one if not two new wingers to make it in there too and I see that you've sent Huth packing.
Oh and I think you're being a bit brutal on Wilson against Schalke - how many minutes was he on the pitch again?
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Post by claudinho on Aug 1, 2014 18:17:36 GMT
Apologies. I know I'm the only one here who makes typos, mate. My confusion was that I didn't know if you were referring to his campaign with Sunderland or his game for Sunderland at Stoke! Apologies.
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Post by claudinho on Aug 1, 2014 18:23:13 GMT
I love this board, because people prefer Geoff that now automatically means Bardsley is shit? The same Bardsley who has nearly 250 premier league appearances at right back? No offence, but I'm not sure this is a fair metric by which to compare players. Hell, most Americans can't even get work permits.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Aug 1, 2014 18:28:02 GMT
In that situation that is what I'm saying I would do. BUT this is all so hypothetical, and I'm not picking the team. With Whelan, N'Zonzi, Wilson, Cameron, Palacios and Ness here, plus Sidwell joining we should definitely free up some space in the DM area, but we'd put all our eggs in the Bardsley basket if we sell Cameron. I don't think Wilson has the pace for playing right back, and he certainly didn't do Diouf any favors in the freidnly with Schalke. But yes, in that situation I'd have a bench of those three two attackers and a goalkeeper. The two remaining spots would depend on the attackers who start, Assuming it's: bojan arnie ireland diouf I'd have Crouch and Odemwingie on the bench. N'Zonzi and Whelan as the midfield, Wilson and Cameron can cover those spots. Wingie can cover any spot in the attacking four, and Crouch helps us if we need to start launching it. Replace one of Crouch and Odemwingie with Walters if you'd like, or switch Wilson for Adam. I understand you had to give it context, but it's too early to state it as a given that he won't be even making the bench. Especially when he played so many games for last season and there are plenty of MFW deals in the mix. It's all assuming the hypothetical starting line-up. And that is not the starting line-up I would have chosen... mine would be: Bego Cameron Shawcross Wilson Pieters Whelan N'Zonzi Odemwingie Ireland Arnie Bojan Subs: Butland, Muniesa, Diouf, Adam, Crouch, Bardsley
Ah right, we're talking at cross purposes then, you're talking about what you would do and I'm talking about what I think could happen.
I fully expect Sidwell to get into the match day 18 and I fully expect one if not two new wingers to make it in there too and I see that you've sent Huth packing.
Oh and I think you're being a bit brutal on Wilson against Schalke - how many minutes was he on the pitch again?
he was only in for like 20. Played fine defensively but didn't move high enough the pitch IMO. Still quite like him as a centre half though. I've not been impressed with Huth lately, and sidwell neither. Assaidi would replace one of the names if he signs.
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Post by Kjones9 on Aug 1, 2014 18:32:21 GMT
I love this board, because people prefer Geoff that now automatically means Bardsley is shit? The same Bardsley who has nearly 250 premier league appearances at right back? No offence, but I'm not sure this is a fair metric by which to compare players. Hell, most Americans can't even get work permits. It wasn't any comparison what so ever (which was sort of my point).
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Aug 1, 2014 18:33:17 GMT
I love this board, because people prefer Geoff that now automatically means Bardsley is shit? The same Bardsley who has nearly 250 premier league appearances at right back? No offence, but I'm not sure this is a fair metric by which to compare players. Hell, most Americans can't even get work permits. appearances don't mean shit, it's what the player can do right now that matters. That being said Bardsley could very well be better than Cameron. They aren't far apart from each other in what they did last season.
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Post by alster on Aug 1, 2014 18:50:46 GMT
No offence, but I'm not sure this is a fair metric by which to compare players. Hell, most Americans can't even get work permits. appearances don't mean shit, it's what the player can do right now that matters. That being said Bardsley could very well be better than Cameron. They aren't far apart from each other in what they did last season. I think Bardsley will be better than Cameron in that he will have a better understanding of when he can contribute in an attacking sense and likely improved delivery and shooting when he does go forward. Cameron went forward abandoning his position all the time and we paid for it a few times. If he'd been able to improve his final ball those positional lapses would be forgiven and forgoten as the advanced positions he was getting into would have provided many times more goals and assists. Unfortunately despite having a whole season to improve that woeful aspect of his game it might even have become worse as the season wore on. Cameron is a good pro and seems like a nice bloke and is doing great at making the most of what he's got. Unfortunately there is very little about his game to suggest he has much natural talent for the game.
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Post by chiswickpotter on Aug 1, 2014 18:51:17 GMT
Somebody has got to be moved on (which means someone has to want them before we get the shift palacios etc) if we want to comply with the Premier League FFP. We can only increase th e wage bill by approx £2.4 million which is about 46K a week. I would imagine we are well above that with the signings we have made so far this summer.[/quot Why £2.4m ? Out TV income is around £20 m higher than 2 seasons ago so that can all go on wages each season, plus the £4m a year rise that is allowed. FFP is not a factor in our wages
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Post by chiswickpotter on Aug 1, 2014 18:52:43 GMT
Excuse my 100% ignorance on this, but you seem the man to ask this kind of question. You're talking of our clubs big earners and wage bill and it's compliance with the Premier League rules and such like. Is it a blanket rule and set amount for every club in the league? As i'd assume it should be, therefore don't clubs like Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool & Spurs have players on much, much higher wages than ourselves? Meaning that they'd have to sell a few players to comply? Sorry if that's a daft question but i can't profess to know about all this FFP malarky. I'm not an expert either but it's to do with income. The more you earn the more you can pay out on wages. Did you really expect the Premiership elite to agree to 'FFP' and it actually be fair? Plus any additional commercial in more which is around £20 million given the TV deal so there is no issue with our wages for the foreseeable future
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Post by Squeekster on Aug 1, 2014 18:58:43 GMT
Just seen this thread and can't be arsed to trawl through it so i'll say now Geoff should not be going anywhere and should be a first team regular as of last season simple!
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Post by alster on Aug 1, 2014 19:05:33 GMT
I'm not an expert either but it's to do with income. The more you earn the more you can pay out on wages. Did you really expect the Premiership elite to agree to 'FFP' and it actually be fair? Plus any additional commercial in more which is around £20 million given the TV deal so there is no issue with our wages for the foreseeable future Lakeland reckons we're about £4M pa foul of FFP he's generally quite knowledgeable about that sort of thing. On those grounds I think its imperative that we move some off the wagebill to make room for one or two more signings on decent money. Shouldn't be too difficult either by perm transfers or loans there'll always be takers for the likes of Butland and Jerome that would cover their whole wage. Others we would have to loan for a contribution to their wages ie Ness Palacios Shotton. Should be OK but it would be really nice to shift a couple of high earners on permanent deals Crouch Walters Adam Cameron.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Aug 1, 2014 19:06:33 GMT
No offence, but I'm not sure this is a fair metric by which to compare players. Hell, most Americans can't even get work permits. appearances don't mean shit, it's what the player can do right now that matters. That being said Bardsley could very well be better than Cameron. They aren't far apart from each other in what they did last season. Exactly, it's about what they can and can't do, we've all seen that Cameron can't play right back, so hopefully we'll never see him there again. As I've said before I'd be happy for him to wait for his chance in another position, but if he isn't I could understand that and at least it would be a bit of cash coming in and something off the wage bill, without losing one of our important players.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Aug 1, 2014 19:12:27 GMT
appearances don't mean shit, it's what the player can do right now that matters. That being said Bardsley could very well be better than Cameron. They aren't far apart from each other in what they did last season. Exactly, it's about what they can and can't do, we've all seen that Cameron can't play right back, so hopefully we'll never see him there again. As I've said before I'd be happy for him to wait for his chance in another position, but if he isn't I could understand that and at least it would be a bit of cash coming in and something off the wage bill, without losing one of our important players. i felt he had a good season, and certainly can play rb.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Aug 1, 2014 19:15:31 GMT
appearances don't mean shit, it's what the player can do right now that matters. That being said Bardsley could very well be better than Cameron. They aren't far apart from each other in what they did last season. I think Bardsley will be better than Cameron in that he will have a better understanding of when he can contribute in an attacking sense and likely improved delivery and shooting when he does go forward. Cameron went forward abandoning his position all the time and we paid for it a few times. If he'd been able to improve his final ball those positional lapses would be forgiven and forgoten as the advanced positions he was getting into would have provided many times more goals and assists. Unfortunately despite having a whole season to improve that woeful aspect of his game it might even have become worse as the season wore on. Cameron is a good pro and seems like a nice bloke and is doing great at making the most of what he's got. Unfortunately there is very little about his game to suggest he has much natural talent for the game. going forward and abandoning his defensive duties is exactly why my Sunderland supporting friend said he was glad to be done with him. Idk though as I've only really watched him when he was picked against us, and don't really remember enough to have formed an opinion.
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Post by steakandchips on Aug 1, 2014 19:15:45 GMT
FFP is a massive joke, FIFA showed that with the 'punishments' dished out to those clubs which fell foul of the 'rules'
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Post by alster on Aug 1, 2014 19:23:06 GMT
Exactly, it's about what they can and can't do, we've all seen that Cameron can't play right back, so hopefully we'll never see him there again. As I've said before I'd be happy for him to wait for his chance in another position, but if he isn't I could understand that and at least it would be a bit of cash coming in and something off the wage bill, without losing one of our important players. i felt he had a good season, and certainly can play rb. I thought he looked promising in the role initially under Hughes. I thought he would grow into the role and improve his composure and accuracy when delivering his final ball. Unfortunately given plenty of time to get to grips with it he didn't and actually went backwards as the season wore on. One of our only players to do so maybe along with Adam whose fall off was mainly due to lack of opportunity.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Aug 1, 2014 19:24:55 GMT
Exactly, it's about what they can and can't do, we've all seen that Cameron can't play right back, so hopefully we'll never see him there again. As I've said before I'd be happy for him to wait for his chance in another position, but if he isn't I could understand that and at least it would be a bit of cash coming in and something off the wage bill, without losing one of our important players. i felt he had a good season, and certainly can play rb. I disagree, he doesn't know how to play the position from what I saw of him, as well as constantly wasting good crossing chances and I think getting a specialist RB shows that Hughes does too, but it's all about opinions.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 19:28:06 GMT
I do love these threads. They remind me of the similar ones we had over the first half of last Season when people were queueing up to say Arnie was shit and nothing but a showpony. Or the ones we still have saying that Ireland is garbage and offers very little. Cameron started 41 games last Season. Only Shawcross started more with 43. The season in question being our best ever in the Prem. If Hughes didn't rate the guy he could have given Wilko a chance here or there. Or even Shotton. But he didn't. He stuck with Geoff from start to finish and he's just boosted his stock even further in the World Cup. Anyone who states "he shouldn't be anywhere near the first team" needs to give their head a wobble. Out of interest, how long before we get the "Bojan is garbage" threads?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 1, 2014 19:31:08 GMT
Ah right, we're talking at cross purposes then, you're talking about what you would do and I'm talking about what I think could happen.
I fully expect Sidwell to get into the match day 18 and I fully expect one if not two new wingers to make it in there too and I see that you've sent Huth packing.
Oh and I think you're being a bit brutal on Wilson against Schalke - how many minutes was he on the pitch again?
he was only in for like 20. Played fine defensively but didn't move high enough the pitch IMO. Still quite like him as a centre half though. I've not been impressed with Huth lately, and sidwell neither. Assaidi would replace one of the names if he signs.
As I said ... we've obviously been talking at cross purposes, I've been offering an objective opinion based on what I think the manager might do, whereas you have been offering an opinion based on what you would do if you were the manager.
Nothing wrong in that of course but obviously they are two different discussions.
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Post by alster on Aug 1, 2014 19:36:59 GMT
FFP is a massive joke, FIFA showed that with the 'punishments' dished out to those clubs which fell foul of the 'rules' I don't understand why you feel that way. They're new rules that teams are having to grapple with their financial model from before the rules were introduced, not easy in the world of 5 & 6 year multi million £ contracts. You're not satisfied with the harshness of the penalties but the rules are there to protect the future viability of football clubs for the sake of their fans. I'm sure the punishments will become harsher for repeat offenders. Don't get me wrong they're far from perfect and could do with some further tweaking but they're already changing the face of football. Take Chelsea as an example they're letting players go they would have previously stockpiled just to stop other teams having them. My main gripe is the QPR situation, I think the Premier League have been irresponsible in not ordering them to settle their FFP dues with the football league before allowing them to take their place in the Prem its bad governance to my mind.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Aug 1, 2014 19:39:58 GMT
he was only in for like 20. Played fine defensively but didn't move high enough the pitch IMO. Still quite like him as a centre half though. I've not been impressed with Huth lately, and sidwell neither. Assaidi would replace one of the names if he signs.
As I said ... we've obviously been talking at cross purposes, I've been offering an objective opinion based on what I think the manager might do, whereas you have been offering an opinion based on what you would do if you were the manager.
Nothing wrong in that of course but obviously they are two different discussions.
They're not mutually exclusive.
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