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Post by serpico on Jul 21, 2014 18:36:37 GMT
It's the question that never gets asked on the TV news, WHY do Palestinians fire rockets in the first place ? the debate always stops before they get to this most pertinent of questions and the debate stays narrowly in the confines of "who started the latest violence" without one mention of the overarching context for the entire conflict, most casual observers would believe Palestinians just enjoy firing off rockets for the hell of it, and it must just be that crazy religion making them do it.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 21, 2014 18:39:06 GMT
There is some mighty naive stuff in this post! But in essence what you are defending is Israel's strategy of disproportionate response. There are those who believe this is acceptable; I'm not one of them. No ...tis you that is wrong. Whilst I agree that Israels response is disproportionate , it is the fault of Hamas that we ever got to this situation in the first place . A cease fire was called for last week which the Israelis agreed to but was broken by Hamas. If Hamas want to prevent further slaughter by their sworn enemy then they need to stop firing rockets into Israeli territory. Only psychopathic lunatics would want the slaughter to continue ....but that is what they appear to be. Irresponsible maniacs that Israel is keen on wiping off the face of the earth. All the Historic references now are lost ...gone forever, it is the present that is now the most important thing. We' ll soon see how compassionate Hamas are.... This is a question of morality. I believe the doctrine of disproportionate response is morally wrong. You, and the earlier poster, seem OK with this.
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Post by heavysoul on Jul 21, 2014 18:47:05 GMT
Read my post above..... Only lunatics like those you seek to defend would chose to continue in a struggle they cannot win. When a nation is fighting with it's back to the sea and nowhere to go what do u do? Israelis killing women and children fuels this intense hatred by the Palestinians and helps the fight. This is no ordinary fight this is a fight for survival from a displaced people who are determined to hold on to what little they have despite Israel continuing to grab more and more land.
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Post by serpico on Jul 21, 2014 18:48:30 GMT
I'd take issue with the term "response", Israel is not "responding" to anything, it has a policy which is ongoing and has been for decades, it's the Palestinians who are responding to Israels policies, Israel has one big disproportionate policy towards palestine, it's called destroying it.
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Post by starkiller on Jul 21, 2014 19:27:03 GMT
In addition, Israhell's occupation and bloodbath siege is ILLEGAL. As is their use of banned weaponry , such as such as dense inert metal explosives. No mention on the BBC. Kids playing on a beach are a threat to these mentalists brainwashed into the most racist and bigoted belief system on the planet. imgur.com/a/gtc9T
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Post by heavysoul on Jul 21, 2014 19:37:55 GMT
White phosphorus used by the Israelis banned !
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Post by starkiller on Jul 21, 2014 19:45:42 GMT
It's the question that never gets asked on the TV news, WHY do Palestinians fire rockets in the first place ? the debate always stops before they get to this most pertinent of questions and the debate stays narrowly in the confines of "who started the latest violence" without one mention of the overarching context for the entire conflict, most casual observers would believe Palestinians just enjoy firing off rockets for the hell of it, and it must just be that crazy religion making them do it. The limited debate thought-control techniques of the lovable Auntie Beeb. Insidious propaganda is far more dangerous than the Fox News approach.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 20:11:14 GMT
No ...tis you that is wrong. Whilst I agree that Israels response is disproportionate , it is the fault of Hamas that we ever got to this situation in the first place . A cease fire was called for last week which the Israelis agreed to but was broken by Hamas. If Hamas want to prevent further slaughter by their sworn enemy then they need to stop firing rockets into Israeli territory. Only psychopathic lunatics would want the slaughter to continue ....but that is what they appear to be. Irresponsible maniacs that Israel is keen on wiping off the face of the earth. All the Historic references now are lost ...gone forever, it is the present that is now the most important thing. We' ll soon see how compassionate Hamas are.... This is a question of morality. I believe the doctrine of disproportionate response is morally wrong. You, and the earlier poster, seem OK with this. I did say it was disproportionate and yes I do thing it is wrong , very wrong . ..perhaps I should have made it more clear .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 20:27:35 GMT
Read my post above..... Only lunatics like those you seek to defend would chose to continue in a struggle they cannot win. When a nation is fighting with it's back to the sea and nowhere to go what do u do? Israelis killing women and children fuels this intense hatred by the Palestinians and helps the fight. This is no ordinary fight this is a fight for survival from a displaced people who are determined to hold on to what little they have despite Israel continuing to grab more and more land. What do you do..... 1 you stick to the agreed ceasefire brokered by the Eygptian government. 2. You do not continue to fire rockets thus provoking a ground offensive by Israel. 3. You then seek a diplomatic end to all armed hostilities. 4 . You seek direction and intervention by the UN setting in stone no more land being taken. 5 Your team of negotiators need to turn up at the meeting. 6. You get to grips with the simple fact that to continue your armed conflict will mean more bloodshed and ultimate defeat. Israel needs to stop disproportionate force being used. It needs to be prepared to shift on some of its policies and land ownership. The US and UK should be excluded from all discussions. A third party from elsewhere should act as peace maker and continuos monitoring of the situation needs to take place. I'm not in either camp to be honest. There is a lot of history to this situation which both sides need to draw a line under. To quote the events of history will only further inflame the situation. Hamas need to be more conciilliarty towards a long term peace agreement and to think more about the welfare of its own citizens. Eygpt needs to realise that the use of excessive force is completely abhorrent and borders on the contravention of the Geneva convention in parts. The sooner the Kalashnikovs are put down and the tanks are driven back into Israeli territory the better .
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 21, 2014 20:39:23 GMT
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Post by starkiller on Jul 21, 2014 21:17:51 GMT
You can't say that Jon, it's Anti-Semitism, don't you know?
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Post by boothenpaddock86 on Jul 22, 2014 0:27:58 GMT
When a nation is fighting with it's back to the sea and nowhere to go what do u do? Israelis killing women and children fuels this intense hatred by the Palestinians and helps the fight. This is no ordinary fight this is a fight for survival from a displaced people who are determined to hold on to what little they have despite Israel continuing to grab more and more land. What do you do..... 1 you stick to the agreed ceasefire brokered by the Eygptian government. 2. You do not continue to fire rockets thus provoking a ground offensive by Israel. 3. You then seek a diplomatic end to all armed hostilities. 4 . You seek direction and intervention by the UN setting in stone no more land being taken. 5 Your team of negotiators need to turn up at the meeting. 6. You get to grips with the simple fact that to continue your armed conflict will mean more bloodshed and ultimate defeat. Israel needs to stop disproportionate force being used. It needs to be prepared to shift on some of its policies and land ownership. The US and UK should be excluded from all discussions. A third party from elsewhere should act as peace maker and continuos monitoring of the situation needs to take place. I'm not in either camp to be honest. There is a lot of history to this situation which both sides need to draw a line under. To quote the events of history will only further inflame the situation. Hamas need to be more conciilliarty towards a long term peace agreement and to think more about the welfare of its own citizens. Eygpt needs to realise that the use of excessive force is completely abhorrent and borders on the contravention of the Geneva convention in parts. The sooner the Kalashnikovs are put down and the tanks are driven back into Israeli territory the better . Hamas were never invited to Egypt to discuss peace talks,the corrupt Zionist controlled Egyptian government misled people into thinking they had. m.theweek.com/article/index/264984/israels-invasion-of-gaza-shows-peace-talks-were-a-sham-all-along
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 0:34:25 GMT
But Hamas continued to fire rockets in regardless....
This extract from your link is not conclusive proof either...''seems like''
seems like deliberate spin, as do much of the week's diplomatic efforts. The Egyptians announced their own cease-fire proposal last Monday night, which Israel respected for a few hours, before resuming airstrikes in the afternoon after Hamas launched dozens of rockets.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 0:47:57 GMT
You can't say that Jon, it's Anti-Semitism, don't you know? Are you anti. Semitic ?....just curious
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 22, 2014 3:53:24 GMT
It has to be said Hamas are showing a PR masterclass...they have somehow got the whole world thinking theyre the innocent victims here.
Its like clockwork, theres a precarious ceasefire during which Hamas sporadically fire rockets over the border, until Israel snap and go in all guns blazing. The further Israel feel backed into a corner, the more violent they get. Eventually someone brokers a peace deal which hangs in place until the rockets start again.
It was neither of their land to begin with, neither are in the right, and neither will ever back down. You can bet your house no matter what peace terms are agreed upon, within a few weeks the rockets will start again.
The only way this will ever stop is if one of them succeeds in wiping the other out. No international government will put its name to that, so the only alternative is to sit on the fence and leave them to it, occasionally reigning in the Israelis when they take it too far.
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Post by ColonelMustard on Jul 22, 2014 7:04:32 GMT
It has to be said Hamas are showing a PR masterclass...they have somehow got the whole world thinking theyre the innocent victims here. Its like clockwork, theres a precarious ceasefire during which Hamas sporadically fire rockets over the border, until Israel snap and go in all guns blazing. The further Israel feel backed into a corner, the more violent they get. Eventually someone brokers a peace deal which hangs in place until the rockets start again. It was neither of their land to begin with, neither are in the right, and neither will ever back down. You can bet your house no matter what peace terms are agreed upon, within a few weeks the rockets will start again. The only way this will ever stop is if one of them succeeds in wiping the other out. No international government will put its name to that, so the only alternative is to sit on the fence and leave them to it, occasionally reigning in the Israelis when they take it too far. While historically you might have a point, ultimately it is Israel that is the obstacle to a two state solution in denying any viable state and it is Israel as a Jewish state that is the obstacle to a democratic one state solution because of the demographic. Unless of course many more Arabs are killed and driven away. The Palestinians are not served by the status quo, Israel is not served by the solutions.
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Post by starkiller on Jul 22, 2014 7:57:34 GMT
You can't say that Jon, it's Anti-Semitism, don't you know? Are you anti. Semitic ?....just curious As if to prove my point ... But since you asked nicely, I am anti-Zionist, as are many Jews... whose views or existence are not to be seen on the BBC. At the weekend's protest... Which was also not to be seen on the BBC. The Zionist influence on Western politics, including the decision to send British servicemen to their deaths for their agenda, cannot be overstated.
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Post by starkiller on Jul 22, 2014 9:02:03 GMT
Radio news, when they get to it, "Israeli soldier reported missing..."
Not 600 dead Palestinians, including over 100 children.
Zionists control the airwaves.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 9:41:46 GMT
I have a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinians of Gaza but until Hamas stops firing rockets which kill and maim Israeli citizens this conflict is not going to stop. It's all very well complaining that it's an unequal fight (it clearly is) but if you were an Israeli citizen in the firing line you would expect your government to do its utmost to protect you. The Hamas leaders ordering the rocket attacks could order them to stop and then call Isreal's bluff on the ceasefire and negotiations. They don't because it suits the people in power to let it continue. And as for arming Isreal, because of longstanding international sanctions the Israelis developed a brilliant & innovative technology industry of their own. They don't need the West's help to stay aeons ahead of their neighbours. Instead, someone should be asking the question, as someone suggested earlier in this thread, why do the rest of the Muslim world not do more to help the Palestinians? It's no longer about who started it and whether it goes back 2000 years, 100 years or 5 minutes. Just now it really is about those rockets. For what it's worth (not much), I think it will still be rumbling on in another 100 years. There is some mighty naive stuff in this post! But in essence what you are defending is Israel's strategy of disproportionate response. There are those who believe this is acceptable; I'm not one of them. You're calling me naive because you believe something that I don't? I'm tempted to patronise you and say come back to me when you've lived a few more decades. But I'd be dead by then.
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 22, 2014 11:03:48 GMT
It has to be said Hamas are showing a PR masterclass...they have somehow got the whole world thinking theyre the innocent victims here. Its like clockwork, theres a precarious ceasefire during which Hamas sporadically fire rockets over the border, until Israel snap and go in all guns blazing. The further Israel feel backed into a corner, the more violent they get. Eventually someone brokers a peace deal which hangs in place until the rockets start again. It was neither of their land to begin with, neither are in the right, and neither will ever back down. You can bet your house no matter what peace terms are agreed upon, within a few weeks the rockets will start again. The only way this will ever stop is if one of them succeeds in wiping the other out. No international government will put its name to that, so the only alternative is to sit on the fence and leave them to it, occasionally reigning in the Israelis when they take it too far. While historically you might have a point, ultimately it is Israel that is the obstacle to a two state solution in denying any viable state and it is Israel as a Jewish state that is the obstacle to a democratic one state solution because of the demographic. Unless of course many more Arabs are killed and driven away. The Palestinians are not served by the status quo, Israel is not served by the solutions. Actually neither of them are happy with the status quo or the solutions. For all the debate and bloodshed and everything else in betweem, the fundamental fact is they cannot coexist. Unless the West genuinely wants to pick sides all they can do is hold Israel back from a genocide - which they have not been doing a particularly good job of recently.
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 22, 2014 11:09:18 GMT
Radio news, when they get to it, "Israeli soldier reported missing..." Not 600 dead Palestinians, including over 100 children. Zionists control the airwaves. You really are the epitome of the phrase 'a little intelligence is a dangerous thing'!
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 22, 2014 11:59:08 GMT
There is some mighty naive stuff in this post! But in essence what you are defending is Israel's strategy of disproportionate response. There are those who believe this is acceptable; I'm not one of them. You're calling me naive because you believe something that I don't? I'm tempted to patronise you and say come back to me when you've lived a few more decades. But I'd be dead by then. I didn't call you naive - just something you wrote that is naive. Or maybe it's delusional? This is what you said that particularly caught my attention The Israel defence industry is both hand in glove and utterly dependent on America. As evidence, here's a quote from U.S. President Obama's former Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates This was taken from the transcript of a Joint Press Conference with Secretary Gates and Minister Barak from Israel on March 24, 2011. So what is it - delusional or naive, or maybe just plain old ignorant?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 22, 2014 16:58:39 GMT
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Jul 22, 2014 20:20:49 GMT
It's the question that never gets asked on the TV news, WHY do Palestinians fire rockets in the first place ? the debate always stops before they get to this most pertinent of questions and the debate stays narrowly in the confines of "who started the latest violence" without one mention of the overarching context for the entire conflict, most casual observers would believe Palestinians just enjoy firing off rockets for the hell of it, and it must just be that crazy religion making them do it. Very good point and very accurate. As we know 'Israel' was called 'Palestine' until 1947..then the Palestinians were kicked out and given the West Bank and Gaza Strip..shit unfarmable land. Other Palestinians moved out to surrounding Arab countries. At first Israel used reasonable force to defend itself but once the USA made the Israeli armed forces the most hi-tech & formidable in the world " reasonable force' went out of the window. A proxy war between USA & USSR was fought for decades in the Middle East. .USA backing the Israelis and the USSR the Arabs. Now the USSR has broken up there is nothing to hold the Israelis back..and that is the nub of the problem.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 21:21:02 GMT
doh!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 21:53:46 GMT
You're calling me naive because you believe something that I don't? I'm tempted to patronise you and say come back to me when you've lived a few more decades. But I'd be dead by then. I didn't call you naive - just something you wrote that is naive. Or maybe it's delusional? This is what you said that particularly caught my attention The Israel defence industry is both hand in glove and utterly dependent on America. As evidence, here's a quote from U.S. President Obama's former Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates This was taken from the transcript of a Joint Press Conference with Secretary Gates and Minister Barak from Israel on March 24, 2011. So what is it - delusional or naive, or maybe just plain old ignorant? You really don't seem like the sort of chap that I'd normally debate this sort of stuff with, too many insults for my liking, but has it occurred to you that you may be getting the wrong message from that transcript? It refers to a bilateral agreement and co-operation. I am quite certain that the Americans can gain a lot from cooperating with the Israelis on technology whereas you appear to assume that the benefits are all Israel's. You might benefit from broadening your influences. As for me & this debate, I'm out. Prefer people with old-fashioned manners.
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Post by ColonelMustard on Jul 22, 2014 23:02:07 GMT
While historically you might have a point, ultimately it is Israel that is the obstacle to a two state solution in denying any viable state and it is Israel as a Jewish state that is the obstacle to a democratic one state solution because of the demographic. Unless of course many more Arabs are killed and driven away. The Palestinians are not served by the status quo, Israel is not served by the solutions. Actually neither of them are happy with the status quo or the solutions. For all the debate and bloodshed and everything else in betweem, the fundamental fact is they cannot coexist. Unless the West genuinely wants to pick sides all they can do is hold Israel back from a genocide - which they have not been doing a particularly good job of recently. From what I have experienced, the Palestinians will ultimately take a solution that ends the occupation/ military law and gives them rights now. The right to return etc are notions of bargaining. Of which they have virtually none. Decent compensation packages could suffice. This is incompatible with the notion of a Jewish state though. In my humble, to say the status quo doesn't suit Israel is odd. They cant have a unified state (the ultimate goal) because of the demographic. They cant allow a meaningful second state lest they lose the notion of the unified state. So they subjugate a people under military occupation, steal land resources and get funded and protected whatever they do. Ever eeking toward an overall Jewish majority with the blessing of the international community. The stubborness of the Palestinians is very inconvenient. The status quo suits Israel down to the ground. Edit - fwiw I'd also say the only solution I can see is co existence (after co resistance) in an Israel with a civil rights movement.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 23, 2014 5:36:16 GMT
I didn't call you naive - just something you wrote that is naive. Or maybe it's delusional? This is what you said that particularly caught my attention The Israel defence industry is both hand in glove and utterly dependent on America. As evidence, here's a quote from U.S. President Obama's former Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates This was taken from the transcript of a Joint Press Conference with Secretary Gates and Minister Barak from Israel on March 24, 2011. So what is it - delusional or naive, or maybe just plain old ignorant? You really don't seem like the sort of chap that I'd normally debate this sort of stuff with, too many insults for my liking, but has it occurred to you that you may be getting the wrong message from that transcript? It refers to a bilateral agreement and co-operation. I am quite certain that the Americans can gain a lot from cooperating with the Israelis on technology whereas you appear to assume that the benefits are all Israel's. You might benefit from broadening your influences. As for me & this debate, I'm out. Prefer people with old-fashioned manners. Sorry to have upset you. But my point remains the same - you said something that is palpably untrue; In your own words you acknowledge a "bilateral agreement and co-operation" with America. What this means precisely is difficult to pin down, but of course ideas and products flow in both directions; money, on the other hand, flows in one direction; $3.1 billion annually! Israel receives more US aid than any other country including Iraq and Afghanistan. What do you think that money is spent on? I'll give you a clue - it ain't butter! What is clear is your statement about Israel not needing the West's help or developing their defence industry independently ain't correct. America, the biggest Western power, is, as I said, hand in glove with Israel. You do seem a sensitive soul though. I've not written anything offensive - certainly not by the standards of insults you see exchanged regularly on this board or generally in political debate. But when you write the sort of falsehood you do, on a sensitive topic like this, expect someone to challenge you. The idea of debate is to argue the substance of the point, don't get distracted by the niceties. Unless, I guess, the substance of your point is unsupportable in which case you concede or cut and run. I guess you chose the latter. Oh - and in terms of broadening experience. I'm all up for that. And nothing helps more with that than exchanging opinion with people who don't agree with you. But, and it's a big but, that opinion has got to be based on fact, or at least, not based on a clear fallacy. Cheerio.
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Post by heavysoul on Jul 23, 2014 18:50:59 GMT
166Palestinian children killed! Over 1000 children injured ! This has to stop !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 19:37:07 GMT
htt
TEST
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