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Post by partickpotter on Jul 21, 2014 6:06:30 GMT
Sad to say this situation in the Middle East could get very much worse - but not because of what is going on in Gaza just now. The sad truth for the Palestinians is no one cares about them; certainly not Israel but also their Arab brothers couldn't care less. They really are a tragic people. To get some perspective on thus I'd recommend Robert Fisk's book Pity the Nation: Lebanon at War. The scary factor is of course ISIS which, of course, stands for the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria only it doesn't! An alternative translation is Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant ; the Levant being an area that includes includes Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Lebanon and apparently an area of Southern Turkey. This definition is closer to reflecting the ambitions of that group. When they reach some type of conclusion in Iraq you can expect them to focus their attention westwards. But, to make things even more scary - ISIS is a Sunni Muslim group; the dominant militant force in Lebanon is the Shi'a Hezbollah. These two factions do not get on well together - to put it mildly! As ISIS moves west, they will run straight into Hezbollah. In fact, there is evidence that is happening now ( link). Hard to see what can resolve this situation peacefully. A(nother) major war could be on the horizon.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 6:34:21 GMT
I think the following needs to be considered in all discussions about the Isreal/Palestine conflict:
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 21, 2014 6:35:27 GMT
People need to realise neither of them want peace. They both would rather see each other wiped off the face of the earth than peacefully share any borders with each other. Unfortunately there are a lot who want to live in peace but can't, owing to some on each side. If hamas would have stopped firing rockets, Israel would have stopped shelling from land, air and sea. Then they could maybe sit down with the UN, agree that the current boundaries that exist remain, Israel stop building on the west bank etc. etc. it will take good people to agree to that. One question I'd like to ask "so Tony Blair, how is the middle east peace envoy job working out" done about as good a job as he did with the UK, he left a fookin disaster behind him Appointing Tony Blair as Middle East Peace Envoy made as much sense as it would have done to appoint Harold Shipman as National Clinical Director for Frail & Elderly Care.
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Post by starkiller on Jul 21, 2014 9:07:54 GMT
Sending the might of state of the art British and US slaughtering devices into the most densely populated areas in the world (so populated because the land has been robbed from them by foreign invaders who have absolutely no right to be there). If you spent even 30 seconds researching beyond your favourite conspiracy websites you'd know thats exactly how the Palestinians got there too. By invading and robbing the land from the last lot who lived there. That whole region has changed hands more times than a twenty pound note. Neither of them have a divine right to be there. Just like the UK then. Until the aristocracy we have now finally robbed all the land from the ordinary folk through slaughter. Yes I am aware but I hardly think that's relevant unless you think that's how the modern world should still operate. The fact remains we are seeing an indiscriminate slaughter of women and children forced refugees through the use of banned weapons by a group of people who are illegally occupying more and more land. This siege and occupation continues against a virtually defenceless people who, ironically, have the right under international law to resist their occupation. They are acting legally whilst the aggressor is not. None of this is reported in the Israeli controlled and biased media and the world does nothing except talk about "both sides" in the face of some of the most appalling killing since the US 'liberated' Iraq. Tell me which other country would get away with this? As for Blair, he was the perfect person to serve his Zionist masters. And with most of these things just flip the title of his role 180 to get the true picture. Middle East War Envoy is much more befitting.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 21, 2014 9:27:36 GMT
If you spent even 30 seconds researching beyond your favourite conspiracy websites you'd know thats exactly how the Palestinians got there too. By invading and robbing the land from the last lot who lived there. That whole region has changed hands more times than a twenty pound note. Neither of them have a divine right to be there. Just like the UK then. Until the aristocracy we have now finally robbed all the land from the ordinary folk through slaughter. Yes I am aware but I hardly think that's relevant unless you think that's how the modern world should still operate. The fact remains we are seeing an indiscriminate slaughter of women and children forced refugees through the use of banned weapons by a group of people who are illegally occupying more and more land. This siege and occupation continues against a virtually defenceless people who, ironically, have the right under international law to resist their occupation. They are acting legally whilst the aggressor is not. None of this is reported in the Israeli controlled and biased media and the world does nothing except talk about "both sides" in the face of some of the most appalling killing since the US 'liberated' Iraq. Tell me which other country would get away with this? As for Blair, he was the perfect person to serve his Zionist masters. And with most of these things just flip the title of his role 180 to get the true picture. Middle East War Envoy is much more befitting. There is plenty of reporting about what Israel is doing in Gaza. You're wrong to suggest otherwise. What is incomprehensible is how Western Goverments tolerate the disproportionate responses Israel deploys whenever one of their citizens is killed. It is quite simply wrong.
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Post by santy on Jul 21, 2014 11:16:23 GMT
Israel to win by genocide.
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Post by ColonelMustard on Jul 21, 2014 11:43:58 GMT
Israel to win by genocide. sorry to be a spelling pedant but I think you'll find that it's spelt s e l f d e f e n c e
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Post by starkiller on Jul 21, 2014 12:04:12 GMT
Just like the UK then. Until the aristocracy we have now finally robbed all the land from the ordinary folk through slaughter. Yes I am aware but I hardly think that's relevant unless you think that's how the modern world should still operate. The fact remains we are seeing an indiscriminate slaughter of women and children forced refugees through the use of banned weapons by a group of people who are illegally occupying more and more land. This siege and occupation continues against a virtually defenceless people who, ironically, have the right under international law to resist their occupation. They are acting legally whilst the aggressor is not. None of this is reported in the Israeli controlled and biased media and the world does nothing except talk about "both sides" in the face of some of the most appalling killing since the US 'liberated' Iraq. Tell me which other country would get away with this? As for Blair, he was the perfect person to serve his Zionist masters. And with most of these things just flip the title of his role 180 to get the true picture. Middle East War Envoy is much more befitting. There is plenty of reporting about what Israel is doing in Gaza. You're wrong to suggest otherwise. What is incomprehensible is how Western Goverments tolerate the disproportionate responses Israel deploys whenever one of their citizens is killed. It is quite simply wrong. Yes, I don't deny there is - although they have little choice. What is not presented is the context and legal situation. And it glosses over the true situation by presenting it as some equal contest and dispute - when neither is anywhere near the truth. The impression left is often it's just those nutcases from both sides at it again. Next ... Meanwhile the illegal bloodbath and land-grab continues.
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Post by santy on Jul 21, 2014 12:10:47 GMT
Israel to win by genocide. sorry to be a spelling pedant but I think you'll find that it's spelt s e l f d e f e n c e Indeed I agree, if a child kicks you in the shin and you kill them as a result its perfectly justified under self defence. There's wrong on both sides, but there's no excuse for wiping out an entire people under the guise of self defence - which is where this is heading. Gaza is a supersized concentration camp.
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Post by heavysoul on Jul 21, 2014 12:23:01 GMT
The world has intervened in many conflicts but this one. Where are the sanctions ? Israel does not abide by any of the laws it continues to inflict casualties on the civilian population. if you look at casualties on both sides the Palestinians have suffered the most.
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Post by boothenpaddock86 on Jul 21, 2014 12:32:24 GMT
There's plenty more than a 1000 who've gone to kill and slaughter on foreign soil. And most of them aren't Muslims. Yes ....The British Army. They're the ones who wear uniforms , abide by the Geneva convention and seek to protect these shores as opposed to those you seek to defend. One not long ago was callously murdered and almost decapitated on a London street near to his barracks by two 'nut jobs'. Remember,,? Brainwashed idiot..still going on about 1 murdered British soldier.your obviously to wrapped up in your patriotic bubble to even consider the injustice going on in Gaza.
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Post by ColonelMustard on Jul 21, 2014 12:33:32 GMT
www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/15326#.U8xUUSXTXJsCameron says that Russia cant sidestep the moral responsibility for the 'rebels' it funds but stays silent on the US funded slaughter in Gaza. Its like shooting fish in a bucket. As Santy said, the endgame is ethnic cleansing. There are simply too many Palestinians within the ancient land of Israel for it to remain a Jewish state when unified. And they want the river to the sea. Cant seem to post a link on my phone but try a look at the link above... from a leading politician... its genocide/ ethnic cleansing
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 12:44:57 GMT
Yes ....The British Army. They're the ones who wear uniforms , abide by the Geneva convention and seek to protect these shores as opposed to those you seek to defend. One not long ago was callously murdered and almost decapitated on a London street near to his barracks by two 'nut jobs'. Remember,,? Brainwashed idiot..still going on about 1 murdered British soldier.your obviously to wrapped up in your patriotic bubble to even consider the injustice going on in Gaza. I couldn't give a flying toss what you think , and as for the filthy shitbags that killed the British soldier ....I hope they rot in hell. That sentiment is also goes for anyone else with similar intentions. Cowards the fucking lot of them. Not worth a shit.
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Post by boothenpaddock86 on Jul 21, 2014 12:53:20 GMT
Brainwashed idiot..still going on about 1 murdered British soldier.your obviously to wrapped up in your patriotic bubble to even consider the injustice going on in Gaza. I couldn't give a flying toss what you think , and as for the filthy shitbags that killed the British soldier ....I hope they rot in hell. That sentiment is also goes for anyone else with similar intentions. Cowards the fucking lot of them. Not worth a shit. So how many Palestinian are equal to 1 British soldiers life..you don't seem to care that father's are carrying their dead sons body parts home in plastic bags in Gaza where's the outrage from you about that? Your attitude is that it's been going on for years and will always go on,total hypocrisy
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 13:00:04 GMT
I couldn't give a flying toss what you think , and as for the filthy shitbags that killed the British soldier ....I hope they rot in hell. That sentiment is also goes for anyone else with similar intentions. Cowards the fucking lot of them. Not worth a shit. So how many Palestinian are equal to 1 British soldiers life..you don't seem to care that father's are carrying their dead sons body parts home in plastic bags in Gaza That's a pretty fucking stupid and idiotic comment in order to provoke a row isn't it ,? Let's put it this way Enstein....I won't be risking my neck for either side. You can if you want to. Joe in Oz will sort out the necessaries if it goes wrong. Good luck Mumf
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Post by boothenpaddock86 on Jul 21, 2014 13:06:42 GMT
So how many Palestinian are equal to 1 British soldiers life..you don't seem to care that father's are carrying their dead sons body parts home in plastic bags in Gaza That's a pretty fucking stupid and idiotic comment in order to provoke a row isn't it ,? Let's put it this way Enstein....I won't be risking my neck for either side. You can if you want to. Joe in Oz will sort out the necessaries if it goes wrong. Good luck Mumf But the fact is you are outraged by 1 British soldier getting murdered but not about murder in Palestine it's pretty clear what side your on.don't even realize your being fed bullshit lies and propaganda by your beloved British bbc.wake up you fool
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 13:11:40 GMT
May I suggest you go and get your head felt.
It was you who decided to bring the subject up again.
Go and buy yourself a Kalashnikov and join the cause if you feel that strongly or perhaps write to the Director General outlining your concerns.
I couldn't give a fuck quite frankly.
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Post by boothenpaddock86 on Jul 21, 2014 13:26:06 GMT
May I suggest you go and get your head felt. It was you who decided to bring the subject up again. Go and buy yourself a Kalashnikov and join the cause if you feel that strongly or perhaps write to the Director General outlining your concerns. I couldn't give a fuck quite frankly. I know it's quite evident from your posts.but why the outrage about 1 British soldier if you frankly don't give a fuck ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 15:15:46 GMT
I have a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinians of Gaza but until Hamas stops firing rockets which kill and maim Israeli citizens this conflict is not going to stop.
It's all very well complaining that it's an unequal fight (it clearly is) but if you were an Israeli citizen in the firing line you would expect your government to do its utmost to protect you. The Hamas leaders ordering the rocket attacks could order them to stop and then call Isreal's bluff on the ceasefire and negotiations. They don't because it suits the people in power to let it continue.
And as for arming Isreal, because of longstanding international sanctions the Israelis developed a brilliant & innovative technology industry of their own. They don't need the West's help to stay aeons ahead of their neighbours.
Instead, someone should be asking the question, as someone suggested earlier in this thread, why do the rest of the Muslim world not do more to help the Palestinians?
It's no longer about who started it and whether it goes back 2000 years, 100 years or 5 minutes. Just now it really is about those rockets.
For what it's worth (not much), I think it will still be rumbling on in another 100 years.
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Post by ColonelMustard on Jul 21, 2014 15:26:57 GMT
I have a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinians of Gaza but until Hamas stops firing rockets which kill and maim Israeli citizens this conflict is not going to stop. It's all very well complaining that it's an unequal fight (it clearly is) but if you were an Israeli citizen in the firing line you would expect your government to do its utmost to protect you. The Hamas leaders ordering the rocket attacks could order them to stop and then call Isreal's bluff on the ceasefire and negotiations. They don't because it suits the people in power to let it continue. And as for arming Isreal, because of longstanding international sanctions the Israelis developed a brilliant & innovative technology industry of their own. They don't need the West's help to stay aeons ahead of their neighbours. Instead, someone should be asking the question, as someone suggested earlier in this thread, why do the rest of the Muslim world not do more to help the Palestinians? It's no longer about who started it and whether it goes back 2000 years, 100 years or 5 minutes. Just now it really is about those rockets. For what it's worth (not much), I think it will still be rumbling on in another 100 years. I'm no fan of Hamas but read their 10 point cease fire proposal. Pretty tough to say they are unreasonable.If I was a resident of Gaza, it's the least I could expect.
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Post by starkiller on Jul 21, 2014 15:30:10 GMT
HAMAS is a creation of Israel through Mossad.
It's the bogey-man needed to give the excuse.
Just like Al-Qaeda is/was the US/CIA created bogey-man needed for their brave adventures in the Middle East.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 21, 2014 17:16:41 GMT
HAMAS is a creation of Israel through Mossad. It's the bogey-man needed to give the excuse. Just like Al-Qaeda is/was the US/CIA created bogey-man needed for their brave adventures in the Middle East. He's basically illustrating the dangers inherent in creating a foreign policy built around the proverb "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 21, 2014 17:24:12 GMT
I have a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinians of Gaza but until Hamas stops firing rockets which kill and maim Israeli citizens this conflict is not going to stop. It's all very well complaining that it's an unequal fight (it clearly is) but if you were an Israeli citizen in the firing line you would expect your government to do its utmost to protect you. The Hamas leaders ordering the rocket attacks could order them to stop and then call Isreal's bluff on the ceasefire and negotiations. They don't because it suits the people in power to let it continue. And as for arming Isreal, because of longstanding international sanctions the Israelis developed a brilliant & innovative technology industry of their own. They don't need the West's help to stay aeons ahead of their neighbours. Instead, someone should be asking the question, as someone suggested earlier in this thread, why do the rest of the Muslim world not do more to help the Palestinians? It's no longer about who started it and whether it goes back 2000 years, 100 years or 5 minutes. Just now it really is about those rockets. For what it's worth (not much), I think it will still be rumbling on in another 100 years. There is some mighty naive stuff in this post! But in essence what you are defending is Israel's strategy of disproportionate response. There are those who believe this is acceptable; I'm not one of them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 17:47:36 GMT
I have a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinians of Gaza but until Hamas stops firing rockets which kill and maim Israeli citizens this conflict is not going to stop. It's all very well complaining that it's an unequal fight (it clearly is) but if you were an Israeli citizen in the firing line you would expect your government to do its utmost to protect you. The Hamas leaders ordering the rocket attacks could order them to stop and then call Isreal's bluff on the ceasefire and negotiations. They don't because it suits the people in power to let it continue. And as for arming Isreal, because of longstanding international sanctions the Israelis developed a brilliant & innovative technology industry of their own. They don't need the West's help to stay aeons ahead of their neighbours. Instead, someone should be asking the question, as someone suggested earlier in this thread, why do the rest of the Muslim world not do more to help the Palestinians? It's no longer about who started it and whether it goes back 2000 years, 100 years or 5 minutes. Just now it really is about those rockets. For what it's worth (not much), I think it will still be rumbling on in another 100 years. There is some mighty naive stuff in this post! But in essence what you are defending is Israel's strategy of disproportionate response. There are those who believe this is acceptable; I'm not one of them. No ...tis you that is wrong. Whilst I agree that Israels response is disproportionate , it is the fault of Hamas that we ever got to this situation in the first place . A cease fire was called for last week which the Israelis agreed to but was broken by Hamas. If Hamas want to prevent further slaughter by their sworn enemy then they need to stop firing rockets into Israeli territory. Only psychopathic lunatics would want the slaughter to continue ....but that is what they appear to be. Irresponsible maniacs that Israel is keen on wiping off the face of the earth. All the Historic references now are lost ...gone forever, it is the present that is now the most important thing. We' ll soon see how compassionate Hamas are....
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Post by starkiller on Jul 21, 2014 17:48:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 17:51:57 GMT
Read my post above.....
Only lunatics like those you seek to defend would chose to continue in a struggle they cannot win.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 17:55:16 GMT
Any of you philosophers fancy 5 rounds with Mike Tyson....?
No , I didn't think so.
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Post by serpico on Jul 21, 2014 18:04:26 GMT
I have a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinians of Gaza but until Hamas stops firing rockets which kill and maim Israeli citizens this conflict is not going to stop. . You're starting at the wrong place, surely anyone who is truly interested in ending this would start with Israels policy toward Palestine, after all Hamas is a RESISTANCE movement, the clue is in the name! and if you want to know what they're resisting take a look at the map that has been posted further up this thread!. Why would they stop firing rockets if Israel doesn't change it's current policy of literally wiping them from the map ? I'm not sure what is so hard for some people to understand here ? Palestine is being slowly demolished by Israel, what do you expect the people of that land to do ? sit around and watch their land disappear around their feet ? it may not be the right thing to do but of course they're going to fire off rockets, what the hell would you do in the same situation ?. There's a cause and effect at play here, you're choosing to ignore the cause and try and blame the effect by blaming it on rocket fire, it doesn't work like that, Palestinians don't just wake up one day and decide to lob rockets into Israel, they're doing it because they're under siege, under blockade, under occupation and rammed into a tiny piece of land that keeps shrinking year on year, if this doesn't give them the right to resist then there is no right to resist for anyone under any circumstance!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 18:16:12 GMT
I have a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinians of Gaza but until Hamas stops firing rockets which kill and maim Israeli citizens this conflict is not going to stop. . You're starting at the wrong place, surely anyone who is truly interested in ending this would start with Israels policy toward Palestine, after all Hamas is a RESISTANCE movement, the clue is in the name! and if you want to know what they're resisting take a look at the map that has been posted further up this thread!. Why would they stop firing rockets if Israel doesn't change it's current policy of literally wiping them from the map ? I'm not sure what is so hard for some people to understand here ? Palestine is being slowly demolished by Israel, what do you expect the people of that land to do ? sit around and watch their land disappear around their feet ? it may not be the right thing to do but of course they're going to fire off rockets, what the hell would you do in the same situation ?. The place , the time , the effects is Now. What has gone before has gone forever. The firing of Rockets by Hamas will only shorten this war. ...and not in their favour. They have a simple choice , fight their own corner with catapults and die ....or sit around a table and negotiate a peaceful resolution monitored by the UN. They have no interest in this. They would rather sit back and watch their own people die by disprortionate Israeli force. You can't have it both ways can you.?
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Post by serpico on Jul 21, 2014 18:29:07 GMT
You're starting at the wrong place, surely anyone who is truly interested in ending this would start with Israels policy toward Palestine, after all Hamas is a RESISTANCE movement, the clue is in the name! and if you want to know what they're resisting take a look at the map that has been posted further up this thread!. Why would they stop firing rockets if Israel doesn't change it's current policy of literally wiping them from the map ? I'm not sure what is so hard for some people to understand here ? Palestine is being slowly demolished by Israel, what do you expect the people of that land to do ? sit around and watch their land disappear around their feet ? it may not be the right thing to do but of course they're going to fire off rockets, what the hell would you do in the same situation ?. The place , the time , the effects is Now. What has gone before has gone forever. The firing of Rockets by Hamas will only shorten this war. ...and not in their favour. They have a simple choice , fight their own corner with catapults and die ....or sit around a table and negotiate a peaceful resolution monitored by the UN. They have no interest in this. They would rather sit back and watch their own people die by disprortionate Israeli force. You can't have it both ways can you.? I didn't say it was a good strategy by Hamas to fire rockets, I merely stated 'what do you expect' from them under such circumstances ? what do you expect from people who have had their homes bulldozed and half their family wiped out, but It doesn't really matter what the Palestinians do, Israel is going to carry on doing what it has been doing for decades because it has the backing of the US, militarily, financially and diplomatically, until the US changes it's policy nothing will change, no matter which table they sit around, won't make one bit of difference because no US politician is brave enough to stand up to the powerful Israel lobby lest they have their political careers ended.
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